From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: She was my Luthien Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:43:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1023583432 12.79.23.194 (Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:43:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:43:52 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88657 "The inscription I should like is: EDITH MARY TOLKIEN 1889-1971 Luthien : brief and jejune, except for Luthien, which says for me more than a multitude of words: for she was (and knew she was) my Luthien." Letters #340 I was riding the train home about a week ago when it suddenly struck me... what if Tolkien had meant this more than figuratively? Could Edith Bratt have been the model for Luthien? The idea is contrary to the way I usually understand Tolkien to have constructed his stories (bordering on 'allegory' as it does), but there are several correlations; Both were, of course, dark-haired and beautiful women. Both fell in love with a younger man and had a romance which was socially somewhat unacceptable. Luthien and Beren were separated for a long time by Thingol's decree that Beren must bring him a Silmaril in order to wed Luthien. Edith and JRRT were separated for a long time by Father Francis's decree that Tolkien should not see or even write to her until he had reached the age of 21 and was no longer under Father Francis's guardianship. Luthien fled from Doriath and went to Nargothrond. Edith left the hated boarding house at Duchess road to live with friends in Cheltenham. This may seem like just a move, but all accounts make it really an escape and time of coming into her own for Edith (as for Luthien). When Beren and Luthien were finally re-united Celegorm was pressing Thingol to allow him to marry Luthien... when Tolkien wrote to Edith (at midnight on his 21st birthday) asking her to marry him he got back a letter indicating that she was already engaged. In both cases the other suit was then quickly ended. Obviously, there are many other elements which don't line up, but it is interesting how many of the 'emotional themes' are the same. While it might be just coincidence, it is also possible that in some sense Edith Bratt really was 'Luthien'. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: She was my Luthien Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:47:11 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88726 On Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:43:52 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > >I was riding the train home about a week ago when it suddenly struck >me... what if Tolkien had meant this more than figuratively? Could >Edith Bratt have been the model for Luthien? > I do believe so. Edith danced for Ronald in the woods of Holderness, IIRC. the softrat "He who rubs owls" "Not stuck with Menny." PS: I am NOT a believer! mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "The race is not always to the swift, or the battle to the strong...but that is the way to bet." Damon Runyan ###### From: zach Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: She was my Luthien Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:54:06 -0400 Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: news.umbc.edu 1023731648 16656 130.85.6.7 (10 Jun 2002 17:54:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@umbc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2002 17:54:08 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.ums.edu!news.umbc.edu!umbc7.umbc.edu!zhowar1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88774 On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > I was riding the train home about a week ago when it suddenly struck > me... what if Tolkien had meant this more than figuratively? Could > Edith Bratt have been the model for Luthien? > is interesting how many of the 'emotional themes' are the same. While > it might be just coincidence, it is also possible that in some sense > Edith Bratt really was 'Luthien'. Excellent ideas. I had similar thoughts when I first read Carpenter's Tolkien biography a few years ago. I was struck by a few similarities between Tolkien's life and Aragorn's life, including the death of the father during the son's extreme youth (Arathorn/Arthur..there's even a similarity in the names here); and the similarities of the Edith/Arwen romances (older woman; father figure restricting the affair until the man "comes of age" or "proves himself"). The Aragorn/Arwen romance was obviously constructed to parallel the earlier Beren/Luthien tale. I feel that Tolkien incorporated a few of the themes from the only significant romance in his life into the most significant romances in his tales. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: She was my Luthien References: Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:59:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!easynews!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88748 In article , zach wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> I was riding the train home about a week ago when it suddenly struck >> me... what if Tolkien had meant this more than figuratively? Could >> Edith Bratt have been the model for Luthien? > >> is interesting how many of the 'emotional themes' are the same. While >> it might be just coincidence, it is also possible that in some sense >> Edith Bratt really was 'Luthien'. > > Excellent ideas. I had similar thoughts when I first read Carpenter's > Tolkien biography a few years ago. I was struck by a few similarities > between Tolkien's life and Aragorn's life, including the death of the > father during the son's extreme youth (Arathorn/Arthur..there's even a > similarity in the names here); and the similarities of the Edith/Arwen > romances (older woman; father figure restricting the affair until the man > "comes of age" or "proves himself"). The Aragorn/Arwen romance was > obviously constructed to parallel the earlier Beren/Luthien tale. I feel > that Tolkien incorporated a few of the themes from the only significant > romance in his life into the most significant romances in his tales. As memory serves, wasn't the name Luthien inscribed on Edith's headstone. Don't have Letters nearby, but it seems to me that he wrote a letter to Christopher saying he had picked out the inscription. I would imagine that would be most telling of all. -- AC ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: She was my Luthien Date: 10 Jun 2002 18:12:13 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9229CAF63praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1023732733 3584249 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88743 Nastał dzień 10 cze 2002, gdy AC był łaskaw napisać: >As memory serves, wasn't the name Luthien inscribed on Edith's >headstone. Don't have Letters nearby, but it seems to me that he wrote a >letter to Christopher saying he had picked out the inscription. I would >imagine that would be most telling of all. I think you'll find that the original post starts with the very quote you were talking about... -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: She was my Luthien References: <9229CAF63praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:24:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88746 In article <9229CAF63praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4>, Pradera wrote: > Nastał dzień 10 cze 2002, gdy AC był łaskaw napisać: > >>As memory serves, wasn't the name Luthien inscribed on Edith's >>headstone. Don't have Letters nearby, but it seems to me that he wrote a >>letter to Christopher saying he had picked out the inscription. I would >>imagine that would be most telling of all. > > I think you'll find that the original post starts with the very quote you > were talking about... That's what you get for jumping into the middle of a conversation. -- AC ###### From: address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: She was my Luthien (and Maeglin/Idril?) Date: 17 Jun 2002 19:49:24 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Western Ontario Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hyphocus.csd.uwo.ca X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 1024343364 8324 129.100.11.51 (17 Jun 2002 19:49:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2002 19:49:24 GMT Originator: andrews@csd.uwo.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!csd.uwo.ca!andrews Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89145 Actually, I think previous posters might be subconsciously remembering some stuff that's spelled out quite explicitly in Carpenter's biography. I can't remember the page ref right now, but I looked it up the other day; on the first page indexed as mentioning Beren, there is some text continuing onto the next couple of pages which makes quite clear the parallels between Beren and Luthien and Ronald and Edith, and the fact that Ronald recognized the parallels. Something that I was thinking about in connection with this was whether the story of Maeglin and Idril was a kind of mirror-image, bad-outcome parallel. Maeglin was also an orphan and Idril had lost her mother. They found themselves in the same place (like Ronald and Edith in the boarding-house), Maeglin was attracted to Idril, they were not permitted to marry, and Idril became engaged to another man (as Edith did during her and Ronald's enforced separation). The differences in the case of Maeglin and Idril were that Idril was *not* attracted to Maeglin, and Idril *did* end up marrying the other man (Tuor). I wonder if Maeglin's bitterness was what Tolkien feared would have been his lot if Edith had ended up marrying the man she got engaged to during their separation. The story of Maeglin, Idril, and Tuor was another of the earliest Middle-earth writings. But then, I'm a Maeglin freak and seem to relate everything to Maeglin. :-) --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: She was my Luthien (and Maeglin/Idril?) Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:01:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1024480916 12.79.23.205 (Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:01:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:01:56 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89169 "Jamie Andrews" wrote in message news:aeleg4$844$1@panther.uwo.ca... > Actually, I think previous posters might be subconsciously > remembering some stuff that's spelled out quite explicitly in > Carpenter's biography. I can't remember the page ref right now, > but I looked it up the other day; on the first page indexed as > mentioning Beren, there is some text continuing onto the next > couple of pages which makes quite clear the parallels between > Beren and Luthien and Ronald and Edith, and the fact that Ronald > recognized the parallels. I looked and Carpenter quotes the same letter I referenced, but doesn't seem to say anything more than that. I did find one other book which makes the same suggestions (or rather states them as absolute conclusions), but as it is in the least likely source imaginable, and as I've only ever skimmed most of that book, I'm fairly confident that I did not get the idea from there - even subconsciously. As to Maeglin and Idril... well, I'd argue that any parallels there are getting well into the range of 'possible coincidence' / 'standard fare for tales of romance'. Still, several similar themes ARE repeated (and show up again in the story of Aragorn and Arwen... and Aldarion and Erendis for that matter).