From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 9 Jun 2002 07:57:01 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 111 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.193.37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023634621 15379 127.0.0.1 (9 Jun 2002 14:57:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 2002 14:57:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88720 NOTE: I realize that the events on Weathertop have been talked about many times, including just this April. To be honest, the April discussion got me thinking and in my spare time I've been doing some study of Nazgul-lore. I checked many of the different discussions, and was surprised that only one person has expressed a view similar to mine. This is the Weathertop-related part of my Grand Unifying Theory of Nazgul, which, in my mind, is a nice "story-internal" explanation of the behavior of the Nazgul. As always, this is just one interpretation, and you should prefix thoughts with "In my opinion". I find one thing odd when hearing people's views of the attack on weathertop: Everyone (me included, at first) assumes that the Nazgul failed. 'The Hunt for the Ring' makes it pretty clear that the Nazgul selected Bree as a strategic point on the Ring's probable journey to Rivendell. They attempted to take the ring somehow at Bree, either themselves or through some of their "agents" at Bree. But they selected a specific place, and planned and carried it out with efficiency, if not restraint with the curtains when unsuccessful. After their failure, it seems they picked the next place they figured the group would head to, probably enforced by the fact that they found Gandalf already there perhaps waiting for the proto-Fellowship. Instead of picking another place to waylay the ringbearer, they made sure to drive Gandalf from the hill (most likely by fatigue rather than force). When the Ring arrived on Weathertop, it didn't take long for the Nazgul to notice (helped by some deal of foolishness). Three days had passed since Gandalf had been driven from the hill, they had plenty of time to think of what to do. Now when the actual attack happens, we dont really have a good measure of how much time passes, to Frodo it perhaps feels like quite a while, but it is probably rather quick. Sam's views of the events make it seem rather sudden. The shadows showed up, then suddenly Frodo disappeared, they shadows rushed toward him and then nothing else until they find him. Frodo sees Aragorn jumping out to face the Nazgul. There is no indication that the Nazgul fought back at all. Then there is a the tactics that we see. The Witch King (who we can assume is the Nazgul with the pretty crown) has experience conducting warfare both in his campaign against Arnor, and several days earlier against the Dunedain garding the ford. In the latter, several of the Dunedain stood bravely against the Nine, and most likely outnumbered them. They had no problem slaying or driving away their enemies, even those who showed no fear. When they attack at Weathertop, they are not attempting to overwhelm or drive away the group. They allowed them to come there for a specific, planned attack. We are told that all nine of the Nazgul attacked Gandalf on Weathertop, but only five attack the ringbearer. This could simply mean exactly what Aragorn says: They were not expecting any resistance. Which I believe to be true. But resistance to what? We have to assume that up to the point that they started the attack, they still believed there would be no resistance. Frodo clearly describes the Nazgul as he sees them with the ring on. They all clearly have swords. Yet the Witch King is holding a Morgul blade. Before the attack starts, its already out. The Nazgul obviously know the purpose of the weapon. If stabbed with a deadly wound, it is no different than a pointy stick, but a non-fatal wound would turn the wounded into a wraith they could easily control. When they attack, two of the five reamain on the lip of the dell, of the three that advance, only the one with the Morgul blade actually attacks. It seems from the start that the intended weapon is the Morgul blade. This is certainly not a weapon to use if you plan on killing your target. Especially not when you are holding a sword in your other hand. The attack had one purpose: To strike the ringbearer with the Morgul blade. It seems that their tactics are pretty poor if they intended to kill anyone. Now, I dont doubt that the yelling of 'Elbereth' combined with the attack of an enchanted knife wasn't what the Witch King had in mind. I'm sure that the naming of 'Elbereth' at such a moment was enough to put doubt suddenly in his head, and perhaps enough to make him a little less accurate. However, following the stabbing of Frodo, they seem to be content to leave. They never really made any other aggressive moves. As Aragorn says, they dont regroup and attack in full force. So, this hardly looks like an attack intended to take possession of the ring. It discourages me to think that Steuard disagrees with me, since he is usually my measure of how sane an idea is. I rather agree with one poster in April who compared the attack with that of a snake. My first thought was not that of a snake, but that of humans. When trying to capture a wild animal, a tiger for instance, it is shockingly simple to kill the tiger, but to *capture* the tiger can get dangerous, and you cannot simply put it on a chain. Instead, we dart it with a tranquilizer, and follow it until it drops. Now the Nazgul made it known at the ford that their intention was to take Frodo back to Mordor with them, not just the Ring. The attack on Weathertop was not intended to kill anyone, but to subdue Frodo so he could be transported easily. After stabbing him, there was no reason to stick around. They weren't scared off by Aragorn and his fire, and I doubt that if the Dunedain at the ford would have been shouting 'O Elbereth, Gilthoniel' they would have fared any better. They left because they never intended to do any more. Their surprise and rage at having him not succumb would be similar to the feeling we would feel if that bear we tranquilized ambled many miles to a place where we could not get him. Their failure was not at Weathertop, but during the entire hunt, where they routinely underestimated their quarry. The attack at Weathertop was one of their more successful moves. In my opinion. ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Message-ID: <090620021042539011%dsalo@usa.net> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 25 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 15:40:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1023637202 208.170.95.136 (Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:40:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:40:02 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!216.227.56.88.MISMATCH!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newspeer2.tds.net!172.16.10.2.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88640 In article <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com>, at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) wrote: > Now the Nazgul made it known at the ford that their intention was to > take Frodo back to Mordor with them, not just the Ring. The attack on > Weathertop was not intended to kill anyone, but to subdue Frodo so he > could be transported easily. After stabbing him, there was no reason > to stick around. They weren't scared off by Aragorn and his fire, and > I doubt that if the Dunedain at the ford would have been shouting 'O > Elbereth, Gilthoniel' they would have fared any better. > > They left because they never intended to do any more. Their surprise > and rage at having him not succumb would be similar to the feeling we > would feel if that bear we tranquilized ambled many miles to a place > where we could not get him. Their failure was not at Weathertop, but > during the entire hunt, where they routinely underestimated their > quarry. The attack at Weathertop was one of their more successful > moves. Sounds like a pretty good theory to me. Though I'm sure that if the Black Riders could have turned Frodo into a subordinate wraith and brought him back to Mordor right away, they would have. If they 'failed', it was by not striking closer to the heart. DS ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 9 Jun 2002 15:51:14 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1023637874 2821576 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!deine.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88673 Nastał dzień 09 cze 2002, gdy nihil był łaskaw napisać: >Now the Nazgul made it known at the ford that their intention was to >take Frodo back to Mordor with them, not just the Ring. Now I wonder about why would Sauron need Frodo, anyway? What did he expect to gain by that? -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop From: Jim Campbell Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:54:02 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.4.131.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news11-gui.server.ntli.net 1023641705 80.4.131.216 (Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:55:05 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:55:05 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88688 in article 9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4, Pradera at pradera@pradera.prv.pl wrote on 9/6/02 4:51 pm: > Now I wonder about why would Sauron need Frodo, anyway? What did he expect > to gain by that? Transporting Frodo _with_ Ring would avoid having one of the Nazgul take possession of it to bring it back? Just a thought ... Cheers Jim ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 9 Jun 2002 17:02:19 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9228C5010praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1023642139 2821576 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88670 Nastał dzień 09 cze 2002, gdy Jim Campbell był łaskaw napisać: >> Now I wonder about why would Sauron need Frodo, anyway? What did he >> expect to gain by that? > >Transporting Frodo _with_ Ring would avoid having one of the Nazgul take >possession of it to bring it back? > I think we've discussed this earlier and assumed that was not the case - the Nazgul were the ultimate slaves and not able to gain possession of the Ring. Why else would Sauron use them? And if they wanted the Ring for themselves, they could take it from Frodo wraith or not. -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop From: Jim Campbell Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <9228C5010praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 18:12:15 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.4.131.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news11-gui.server.ntli.net 1023642797 80.4.131.216 (Sun, 09 Jun 2002 18:13:17 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 18:13:17 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88689 in article 9228C5010praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4, Pradera at pradera@pradera.prv.pl wrote on 9/6/02 6:02 pm: > And if they wanted the Ring for themselves, they could take it from Frodo > wraith or not. Ah. Good point. I shall ponder some more ... Cheers Jim ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:35:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88682 In article <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4>, Pradera wrote: > Nastał dzień 09 cze 2002, gdy nihil był łaskaw napisać: > >>Now the Nazgul made it known at the ford that their intention was to >>take Frodo back to Mordor with them, not just the Ring. > > Now I wonder about why would Sauron need Frodo, anyway? What did he expect > to gain by that? Sauron was obviously not above revenge. -- AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:36:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88681 In article , Jim Campbell wrote: > in article 9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4, Pradera at > pradera@pradera.prv.pl wrote on 9/6/02 4:51 pm: > >> Now I wonder about why would Sauron need Frodo, anyway? What did he expect >> to gain by that? > > Transporting Frodo _with_ Ring would avoid having one of the Nazgul take > possession of it to bring it back? > > Just a thought ... Sauron had nothing to fear from the Nazgul. They had no will over their own and would have been incapable of doing anything that Sauron did not desire. -- AC ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 9 Jun 2002 17:39:48 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 61 Message-ID: <9228C3EF4praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <9228C5010praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1023644388 2821576 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88680 Nastał dzień 09 cze 2002, gdy Jim Campbell był łaskaw napisać: >> And if they wanted the Ring for themselves, they could take it from >> Frodo wraith or not. > >Ah. Good point. I shall ponder some more ... > Well, here's my thought on that. First, little information on what would the Nazgul expect from current ringbearer: 1) Last known bearer was Gollum - poor wretched creature, of no else use than source of information. 2) Bearer A, so called 'Baggins...Shire...', was not known about. But he let Gollum live - so either he was not that strong, or (in Sauron's mind) he was stupid, or extremely pitiful. All that, to Sauron, weren't characteristics of a mighty warrior. 3) Bearer A was most probably not one of the Wise or the Mighty, as having the Ring so long in his possession, he would most certainly rise to power and threaten Sauron himself. So, points 2 and 3 taken, Bearer A was most probably not much stronger than Gollum himself. Thus, no threat. And that was probably what the Nazgul had expected when they went out of Mordor. It was even more so, when they've reached the Shire and met it's people - nobody of that race could pose a threat to even a single one of them. But on their journeys they learned also one more thing: the Wise (Gandalf included) were also aware of where the Ring was. It was a matter of time before the Bearer B (Frodo) would be surrounded by mighty warriors and powerful wizards and others of the sort. Indeed, one of the Rangers was with them, and they just managed to get rid of Gandalf some days before Weathertop. So, here's the plan. If they'd just kill Frodo and carry his body with them, there would be a danger involved in that: The Nine could be a subject of a massed attack of the Wise'n'Mighty in which the body (and the Ring) could be lost/captured, even if with great casualties on the attacking side. It was a material object, and the Ring was on a material plane, and could get lost on the way. However, if Frodo would turn to the wraith plane and went with them in such guise, then there would be no or little way to stop them from reaching Mordor. Only few of the Wise could see the wraith plane, and the wraithy body of Frodo would not get lost or get captured except for as result of something like the full-scale attack of Imladris forces. So maybe that was the reason. I can not think of any other - Frodo wouldn't do much as neither a slave or a spy... perhaps Sauron wanted particularly to torture and maim all other Ringbearers except himself, but that doesn't seem like the cold and reasonable, though cruel, bastard he was. -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 9 Jun 2002 21:22:06 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 135 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.193.37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023682926 18216 127.0.0.1 (10 Jun 2002 04:22:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2002 04:22:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88765 Troels Forchhammer wrote in message news:<3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk>... > IIRC their motives on Weathertop has been discussed briefly - but > I think most people agree that they wanted the Ring. I guess this is part of the thing I was questioning. Its obvious they want the ring, but I dont think its quite so obvious that they expect to actually get the ring that night. > I will agree that the tactics the Nazgűl use seem best fitted to that > purpose, and would require some explanation if they meant to > attack the camp outright. > On the other hand the Witch King doesn't attack until Frodo puts > on the Ring - only then does he rush in and stab Frodo. Yeah. That part wasn't completely clear. It seems as if they were waiting for Frodo to put the ring on. As you later suggested, perhaps they werent sure which of the hobbits had the ring. Perhaps the knife was more effective if he was wearing the ring. We really dont know. I think the combination of Frodo putting on the Ring, 'Elbereth', and Frodo's unsuccessful attack caused the Witch King to rush the attack. Just a little. > This is only after they expect his will has been subdued by his wounds, > and I don't believe it should be confused with their real intentions - > neither at weathertop nor at the Ford (the only reason for taking Frodo > to Mordor would be to give Sauron a chance for some personal > entertainment). But this is one of the biggest points I was trying to make. They specifically used the Morgul blade. There was no attempt to use any other weapon or tactic. The Morgul blade is used to subdue a person. If they never intended to take Frodo, why subdue him? Turn him into a wraith, take the Ring and leave him? Its possible. But why not take him with you? Even if he no longer has the Ring, Sauron has never been above torture, and he has always enjoyed playing with wraiths bound to his service. This gets back to the nature of that silly blade. The big question is what if the blade would have hit a bit closer? Would the change to a wraith have been immediate? Or just much faster? If we assume its immediate, then its much easier to believe they expected Frodo to leave with them, and left only when they realized that was not going to happen. I assume that a closer strike would have resulted in an inevitable change, but not an immediate one. Its really a question that cant be answered. Which is why this is just one way of looking at the events. I assume that they would have waited until he was subdued, and said the same thing to him, except in that case, he would have obeyed. > Well, apart from the "bring Frodo to Mordor" bit, I think my > disagreement is primarily one of degree. I think we agree even more than that (which is encouraging to me: apparently this wont be labeled as a crackpot theory) > I don't think that the Nazgűl would have turned down a chance for > capturing the Ring at Weathertop Agreed. Whole heartily. I think they would have grabbed it if given the chance, but that their plan was not to take any risks to get it. > ...but I would agree that they didn't > feel any urgency in this _if_ they were successful in stabbing the > Ring-bearer with the Morgul-blade. ...and of course I agree with this. > I believe that they fully intended to get the Ring - if they could - but > the most important objective for them were to ensure that they > could get the Ring at some point - i.e. stabbing the Ring-bearer. And I dont see what plan they had for getting the Ring, unless we assume the Morgul blade could act immediately. Had Frodo done something terribly stupid like running away or perhaps if the rest of the hobbits had run away, I expect it would have turned out differently. > I don't think they knew which of the Hobbits carried the One Ring - > after all their sight wasn't too good. An amazingly good point. I dont see how they could recognize the ring bearer. Until Bree, the Nazgul wouldn't have had any way to recognize Frodo even if they could see well. I dont see how they could possibly know which of the hobbits had the ring. This was probably the cause for influencing the ringbearer to wear the ring, thus showing himself. And it fits nicely with other situations where Frodo felt the urge to put on the ring. In most (all?) of the situations with the Nazgul, he feels the urge when a Nazgul is guessing the ringbearer is around, but cannot find him. > But I disagree in the idea that it was their intention all along to > necessarily bring Frodo to Mordor - I'm sure it was far down > on their list of priorities... But I'm not sure why they would use the Morgul blade if they didn't intend to. It would have been simpler to lop off Frodo's hand. However, we can find plenty of story-internal explanations for either view. By far the most aggressive action would have been for them to de-Ring Frodo, then cast off their robes and make their way back to Mordor, but that is hardly the stealthy approach that Sauron requested of them. The wraith-Frodo carrying the Ring back is a more stealthy way. On second thought, I suppose I can easily let go of the idea of using Frodo as a method of transporting the Ring. There is no reason he would be needed. The Nazgul certainly couldn't claim the Ring, and might be safer than a hobbit-wraith. So the Nazgul probably would have taken the Ring (provided it was possible) from a wraith-Frodo. In which case Sauron would have little need for Frodo. But still: Free wraith. Why pass it up? I wouldn't mind a free wraith to do stuff for me, even if it was a Ring-junkie hobbit-wraith. > ...witness also the attack in Bree, I think > it shows that they wouldn't shun lethal violence if the situation > made it possible (other explanations might of course be given - > e.g. that the destruction was due to their rage at having been > cheated). I had always read that the attack on Bree (if indeed the Nazgul were the attackers) only turned violent when they found out they were thwarted. Its not the only reading to be sure. Either way, not essential to the theory presented, as it can be used to prove both arguments: 1) The Nazgul intended to use lethal force at Weathertop because they did at Bree and why should they avoid continuing this policy? 2) The Nazgul didn't intend to use lethal force at Weathertop because they freely did so at Bree but did not initiate such an attack at Weathertop. It works either way. But thanks for the tip on the Nazgul not knowing who the ringbearer was. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 84 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:07:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1023703624 12.79.24.213 (Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:07:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:07:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88736 "nihil" wrote in message news:5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com... > I find one thing odd when hearing people's views of the attack on > weathertop: Everyone (me included, at first) assumes that the Nazgul > failed. Well... they didn't get the Ring. Ergo, it seems pretty clear that they failed. :) > Instead of picking another place to waylay the ringbearer, they made > sure to drive Gandalf from the hill (most likely by fatigue rather > than force). Possibly, I think it is more likely that they were just trying to kill him and Gandalf escaped at dawn. After all, if the Nazgul had not attacked Gandalf would have moved on anyway. They might not have known that, but there is at least a fair chance they knew he was headed towards Rivendell at great speed. > The Witch King (who we can assume is the Nazgul with the pretty > crown) The text says 'crownS'. More than one of them were wearing crowns. Not an important point to your topic, but it has been an issue elsewhere. > We are told that all nine of the Nazgul attacked Gandalf on > Weathertop, but only five attack the ringbearer. This could simply > mean exactly what Aragorn says: They were not expecting any > resistance. Which I believe to be true. Gandalf later says that some of the Nazgul followed him when he fled from Weathertop to the North. I'd argue that the Nazgul didn't know exactly where Frodo was... so they split up. Some to follow Gandalf, who might lead them to the ringbearer, and some to watch the road and Weathertop in case Gandalf was going somewhere else. > When they attack, two of the five reamain on the lip of the dell, of > the three that advance, only the one with the Morgul blade actually > attacks. It seems from the start that the intended weapon is the > Morgul blade. This is certainly not a weapon to use if you plan on > killing your target. Especially not when you are holding a sword in > your other hand. The attack had one purpose: To strike the > ringbearer with the Morgul blade. It seems that their tactics are > pretty poor if they intended to kill anyone. I think that the two at the lip of the dell were intended to prevent anyone from getting away, the two who stopped further down were intended to cover the WK in case of any attack from Aragorn or the other hobbits, and the WK was to drive the Morgul blade into Frodo's heart, making him a wraith immediately. > So, this hardly looks like an attack intended to take possession of > the ring. Hmmm. Where I disagree is in that the text indicates that the WK missed his mark because Frodo fell forward. The target was evidently Frodo's heart and the indication was that if he had been struck there Frodo would have become a minor wraith under their control. As such, I think the goal WAS to get the Ring right away... if the stab had gone as intended that would have been the outcome. When the WK missed they went to the 'backup plan'... the 'Morgul sliver' would still complete the mission, it would just take a short while - or so they thought. > Now the Nazgul made it known at the ford that their intention was to > take Frodo back to Mordor with them, not just the Ring. The attack > on Weathertop was not intended to kill anyone, but to subdue Frodo so > he could be transported easily. After stabbing him, there was no > reason to stick around. They weren't scared off by Aragorn and his > fire, and I doubt that if the Dunedain at the ford would have been > shouting 'O Elbereth, Gilthoniel' they would have fared any better. Possibly. I'd tend to think that they had always had 'wound the ringbearer and wait' as a backup plan, but went with that rather than 'kill them all' because of the resistance which was offered. It does seem clear that they intended to take Frodo back to Mordor for torment, but that could be part of either plan. ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 101 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d04c21c$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 10 Jun 2002 16:13:32 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1023722012 212.130.21.179 (10 Jun 2002 16:13:32 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88729 "nihil" wrote: > Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > I believe that they fully intended to get the Ring - if they could - but > > the most important objective for them were to ensure that they > > could get the Ring at some point - i.e. stabbing the Ring-bearer. > > And I dont see what plan they had for getting the Ring, unless we > assume the Morgul blade could act immediately. Had Frodo done > something terribly stupid like running away or perhaps if the rest of > the hobbits had run away, I expect it would have turned out > differently. I think that the swords would have been put to 'bad use' had the proto-fellowship (nice term there ;-) not shown the degree of resistance they did. As it were the Nazgűl had already obtained their main objective with the attack - the wounding of the ringbearer with the Morgul-blade - and therefore chose to withdraw as discussed in April. They were very focused on wounding Frodo first and therefore hesitated in engaging themselves before that was accomplished so that they wouldn't have to make a fighting retreat (which is always more risky than just running off) should the resistance be harder than expected. > > I don't think they knew which of the Hobbits carried the One Ring - > > after all their sight wasn't too good. > > An amazingly good point. I dont see how they could recognize the ring > bearer. Until Bree, the Nazgul wouldn't have had any way to recognize > Frodo even if they could see well. I dont see how they could possibly > know which of the hobbits had the ring. This was probably the cause > for influencing the ringbearer to wear the ring, thus showing himself. > And it fits nicely with other situations where Frodo felt the urge to > put on the ring. In most (all?) of the situations with the Nazgul, he > feels the urge when a Nazgul is guessing the ringbearer is around, but > cannot find him. Just what I was thinking - it's _so_ nice to feel appreciated > > But I disagree in the idea that it was their intention all along to > > necessarily bring Frodo to Mordor - I'm sure it was far down > > on their list of priorities... > > But I'm not sure why they would use the Morgul blade if they didn't > intend to. It would have been simpler to lop off Frodo's hand. > However, we can find plenty of story-internal explanations for either > view. By far the most aggressive action would have been for them to > de-Ring Frodo, then cast off their robes and make their way back to > Mordor, but that is hardly the stealthy approach that Sauron requested > of them. The wraith-Frodo carrying the Ring back is a more stealthy > way. > > On second thought, I suppose I can easily let go of the idea of using > Frodo as a method of transporting the Ring. There is no reason he > would be needed. The Nazgul certainly couldn't claim the Ring, and > might be safer than a hobbit-wraith. So the Nazgul probably would > have taken the Ring (provided it was possible) from a wraith-Frodo. > In which case Sauron would have little need for Frodo. But still: > Free wraith. Why pass it up? I wouldn't mind a free wraith to do > stuff for me, even if it was a Ring-junkie hobbit-wraith. I may have expressed myself a bit more emphatically than intended. I expect that they wouldn't mind taking him along _if possible_, but I cannot believe that it was a primary objective for the Nazgűl - the Ring was always more important, and they would take _any_ risks that would jeopardize their safe return with the Ring. If they could get Frodo too without running that risk, fine - as you say, no need to pass up a free wraith or 'playmate' for Sauron ;-) > > ...witness also the attack in Bree, I think > > it shows that they wouldn't shun lethal violence if the situation > > made it possible (other explanations might of course be given - > > e.g. that the destruction was due to their rage at having been > > cheated). > > I had always read that the attack on Bree (if indeed the Nazgul were > the attackers) only turned violent when they found out they were > thwarted. Its not the only reading to be sure. Either way, not > essential to the theory presented, as it can be used to prove both > arguments: Sure thing. I guess we're down to nitpicking on how important it was for the Nazgűl to get Frodo with them to Mordor (I don't think he would have been allowed to carry the Ring, though) and maybe the exact strategy the Nazgűl had when they showed up at Weathertop - I believe it was something like: "We _have_ to get the Morgul-blade into the ringbearer, after that we can try to kill the lot and get the Master Ring if the prospects look promising". -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) ###### From: dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:25:37 -0400 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 67 Sender: dre1@cornell.invalid (on csic13.cogstud.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: csic13.cogstud.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1023747789 28177 128.253.36.150 (10 Jun 2002 22:23:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2002 22:23:09 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!dre1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88820 In article <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com>, at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) wrote: > Troels Forchhammer wrote in message news:<3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk>... > > IIRC their motives on Weathertop has been discussed briefly - but > > I think most people agree that they wanted the Ring. > > I guess this is part of the thing I was questioning. Its obvious they > want the ring, but I dont think its quite so obvious that they expect > to actually get the ring that night. > > > I will agree that the tactics the Nazgűl use seem best fitted to that > > purpose, and would require some explanation if they meant to > > attack the camp outright. > > On the other hand the Witch King doesn't attack until Frodo puts > > on the Ring - only then does he rush in and stab Frodo. > > Yeah. That part wasn't completely clear. It seems as if they were > waiting for Frodo to put the ring on. As you later suggested, perhaps > they werent sure which of the hobbits had the ring. Perhaps the knife > was more effective if he was wearing the ring. We really dont know. > I think the combination of Frodo putting on the Ring, 'Elbereth', and > Frodo's unsuccessful attack caused the Witch King to rush the attack. > Just a little. > > > This is only after they expect his will has been subdued by his wounds, > > and I don't believe it should be confused with their real intentions - > > neither at weathertop nor at the Ford (the only reason for taking Frodo > > to Mordor would be to give Sauron a chance for some personal > > entertainment). > > But this is one of the biggest points I was trying to make. They > specifically used the Morgul blade. There was no attempt to use any > other weapon or tactic. The Morgul blade is used to subdue a person. > If they never intended to take Frodo, why subdue him? Turn him into a > wraith, take the Ring and leave him? Its possible. But why not take > him with you? Even if he no longer has the Ring, Sauron has never > been above torture, and he has always enjoyed playing with wraiths > bound to his service. > > This gets back to the nature of that silly blade. The big question is > what if the blade would have hit a bit closer? Would the change to a > wraith have been immediate? Or just much faster? If we assume its > immediate, then its much easier to believe they expected Frodo to > leave with them, and left only when they realized that was not going > to happen. I assume that a closer strike would have resulted in an > inevitable change, but not an immediate one. Its really a question > that cant be answered. Which is why this is just one way of looking > at the events. > > I assume that they would have waited until he was subdued, and said > the same thing to him, except in that case, he would have obeyed. I would guess that Sauron gave them a specific order to subdue the Ringbearer. Not primarily to bring him back with them, but to prevent his wielding the Ring against them. Remember that Sauron couldn't imagine someone who knew about the Ring not using its power. And if Frodo had been powerful enough, he could have used the Ring to stop the Nazgul taking direct action against him. By overwhelming his will, his possession of the Ring was rendered impotent. With that accomplished, Sauron may have imagined that there was little that could stop his Nazgul from returning the Ring to him. -Doug Elrod (dre1@cornell.edu) ###### From: "corey_jeppesen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.149.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1023777087 12.224.149.152 (Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:31:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:31:27 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:31:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!oleane.net!oleane!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88789 > I find one thing odd when hearing people's views of the attack on > weathertop: Everyone (me included, at first) assumes that the Nazgul > failed. Great line of discussion. Just a couple of thoughts. By making Frodo a wraith, it seems that he becomes even more subject to the power of the ring. The ring, of course, wants nothing but to be returned to its master (Sauron) at the appropriate time. By making him a wraith, it seems certain that Frodo will yield the ring up to Sauron. Tolkien makes the point again and again, however, that Hobbits are able to withstand such things much more than one would expect. It is for this reason only, I think, (and the speed of Glorfindel's horse) that he survives the race to Rivendell. It seems unlikely that the Witch King would have mistakenly stabbed Frodo in the shoulder, rather it would be a very good place to guarantee that he lives long enough for the Morgul "poison" to do its work. Another thought... Perhaps the ring itself prevented the Nazgul from obtaining it directly. If I was Sauron, I might build that safeguard against treachery into its design. This has interesting implications for the Elven rings, as well. Perhaps it wasn't the will of Galadriel that allowed her to reject the ring when offered. Maybe it was the ring itself, protecting its "Master" from anyone else drawing all the rings unto themselves. I'm on a tangent here, I know, and one without a lot of evidence, too. This whole line of conversation does change one of my major impressions of the book, however, which is that Aragorn's defense of the Hobbits on Weathertop was one of the most heroic deeds in Tolkien's literature. If the Nazgul in fact retreated as part of their plan, I can see why Tolkien spent more time stressing his accomplishments later in the narrative. By the way, It was prophesied that the Witch King would not be slain by a man. He would have had nothing to fear from Aragorn. If the Nazgul retreated for any other reason than to allow the poison time to claim Frodo, it was because they feared the hobbits (doubtful), or the potential power latent in the ringbearer. ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 11 Jun 2002 05:58:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 83 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206110458.103e31da@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023800319 12330 127.0.0.1 (11 Jun 2002 12:58:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2002 12:58:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88817 "corey_jeppesen" wrote in message news:<3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01>... > Tolkien makes the point again and again, however, that Hobbits are able to > withstand such things much more than one would expect. It is for this reason > only, I think, (and the speed of Glorfindel's horse) that he survives the > race to Rivendell. Of course. The main mistakes made by the Nazgul was arrogance in assuming they could not be resisted and underestimating the strength of Frodo. This is a general theme of Tolkien's books. Evil being hindered by its own arrogance/greed/acts, and the mighty underestimating the weak (who really aren't that weak). > It seems unlikely that the Witch King would have > mistakenly stabbed Frodo in the shoulder, rather it would be a very good > place to guarantee that he lives long enough for the Morgul "poison" to do > its work. This is one of the things we cant know. It depends on how we think the Morgul blade works. There are two possibilities as I see it: 1) The Morgul Blade instantly turns you into a wraith when part of it pierces your heart. This ascribes some magical potency to a persons heart. I dont think we need worry about that, in a discussion of blades that turn you into the undead. In this case, the Nazgul probably wanted to go for the heart. They could have had an instant Frodo-wraith. 2) The Morgul Blade takes a bit of time to work, work that cannot be done if the target is dead. In this case, they would want to give him a wound as survivable as a knife can give, but in someplace near his heart. I hear the good shoulder wound is, while painful like most wounds, not often lethal. This would tell them to aim for the shoulder. There are people who believe both, and there is no way to prove which way is correct. I personally go for B, since I prefer to think of the Nazgul as efficient, intelligent, and experienced agents, instead of mindless minions with extra powers. However, its just as important to note that if Frodo attacked the Nazgul's feet, he must have been in either a crouching, or more likely, prone position. Its not a common practice to stab someone in the heart through their back. If he simply lunged forward, attacking with his right hand, his left shoulder would (most likely) be open to attack from a right handed stab from the Morgul blade. In such a position, the heart would be a much harder target to hit, if he was aiming for it at all. > Another thought... Perhaps the ring itself prevented the Nazgul from > obtaining it directly. If I was Sauron, I might build that safeguard against > treachery into its design. He did, so to speak. The Nazgul were completely, and utterly enslaved to their rings and Sauron's will. Tolkien states that if any of them had found or taken the Ring, even the Witch King, he would have given it to Sauron. This is why the Nazgul are used, most likely. They could be given full information without the worry of them claiming the Ring. > This whole line of conversation does change one of my major impressions of > the book, however... Well, I dont think I was trying to change everyone's minds, but yay. I'm glad I helped someone examine their views of the book. > ...which is that Aragorn's defense of the Hobbits on > Weathertop was one of the most heroic deeds in Tolkien's literature. Well, I dont think we should discount the heroics that occurred there. Whether they intended to leave or not, standing up to five of the Nine is still a task beyond (probably) any other man in Middle Earth at that time. So perhaps only him and Eowyn could have done it... > By the way, It was prophesied that the Witch King would not be slain by a > man. He would have had nothing to fear from Aragorn. For small enough values of 'fear'. If its prophesied that no man will kill me, it doesn't protect me from being beaten within an inch of my life by a man. Sure I can laugh at him while coughing up blood: "Ha ha. At least......I'll live through this." The Witch King was arrogant and thats probably why he wasn't afraid. He'd probably mention his future in single combat. But being on fire would still suck. ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 11 Jun 2002 13:30:46 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 28 Message-ID: <922A9E722praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01> <5d5a7abb.0206110458.103e31da@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1023802246 3584249 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!deine.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88804 Nastał dzień 11 cze 2002, gdy nihil był łaskaw napisać: > >1) The Morgul Blade instantly turns you into a wraith when part of it >pierces your heart. This ascribes some magical potency to a persons >heart. I dont think we need worry about that, in a discussion of >blades that turn you into the undead. In this case, the Nazgul >probably wanted to go for the heart. They could have had an instant >Frodo-wraith. Not necessarily. It might just mean that a person must _die_ in an instant the morgul blade stabs him. Stabbing the heart is just the simplest way to do so. Also, reaching the heart through veins is the simplest way to kill a person using 'wandering' piece of blade. -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 11 Jun 2002 07:07:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023804462 16016 127.0.0.1 (11 Jun 2002 14:07:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:07:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!206.167.113.251.MISMATCH!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88815 dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) wrote in message news:... > I would guess that Sauron gave them a specific order to subdue the > Ringbearer. Not primarily to bring him back with them, but to prevent > his wielding the Ring against them. Remember that Sauron couldn't > imagine someone who knew about the Ring not using its power. And > if Frodo had been powerful enough, he could have used the Ring to > stop the Nazgul taking direct action against him. Tolkien wrote about this in a Letter (which I dont have). The Nazgul would have obeyed Frodo only in the things that would not oppose Sauron's will. Or if you mean, he could have caused fire and destruction to stop them, then you have to remember it would take time before he could control it like that. The Nazgul would have stalled until Sauron could come and take the Ring himself, however long that would take (New Discussion: What is the air speed velocity of an unladen Maia?) > By overwhelming his will, his possession of the Ring was rendered > impotent. With that accomplished, Sauron may have imagined that > there was little that could stop his Nazgul from returning the Ring > to him. Exactly. Or his ability to keep it from the Nazgul. As (someone? --sorry, forgot your name) pointed out, after Frodo is a wraith, they can simply take the Ring. Frodo coouldn't and wouldn't stop them. And then they could pass the day poking the Frodowraith with sticks, and ride like the wind at night. ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 11 Jun 2002 07:17:09 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206110617.5f7f6b88@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <9228B009Epraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <9228C5010praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <9228C3EF4praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023805030 16492 127.0.0.1 (11 Jun 2002 14:17:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:17:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88819 "Taemon" wrote in message news:... > Question remains, why take Frodo? Even as a wraith? Why not take him? Just think: Free wraith. He's got nowhere else to go. Sure it might be fun to drop him off at the Shire just to cause chaos, which is pretty cool. Or you could take him back to Minas Morgul and make him serve you drinks or scrub your hauberks. You could make him sleep on a bed covered with plain gold rings. Make him wear gold rings on his fingers and around neclaces. Hang gold rings from the ceiling of the room you imprison him in. Make him see gold rings everywhere he goes for all eternity. After a few millenia, he'll be sorry for helping that fool Gandalf. I mean, if you are a Dark Lord or even just work for him, why pass up a slave to torment. Especially one who is already pre-tormented and not a flight risk. I expect he could have been used to do all sorts of things to demoralize Sauron's enemies. Am I sadistic for thinking of these things? ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 11 Jun 2002 08:04:11 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 115 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023807851 19166 127.0.0.1 (11 Jun 2002 15:04:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2002 15:04:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88818 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:... > Well... they didn't get the Ring. Ergo, it seems pretty clear that > they failed. :) What if they didn't want the ring at all? What if the attack was just part of a bet? Witch King: Little bastard escaped. Bastard. Khamul: Oh well. Whats He gonna do? Kill us? Witch King: I guess we'll just catch them at the Gates. Khamul: Hey. Betcha cant touch the ringbearer without being touched. Witch King: How much? Khamul: 4 fea. Witch King: Does my sword count? Khamul: Of course not, it a long sword. Witch King: How bout ... this? Khamul: Fine. Touch him with your steak knife if you like. Witch King: ...and 3 newborn kittens for each mortal who I crumple with fear. Khamul: Deal. Witch King: Hmm... Weathertop? Khamul: Sounds good. Lets get the others. They wont want to miss this. Khamul: Oh yeah ... forgot to tell you they got knives from those dunedain you killed so long ago. Witch King: He never touched me! Did you see his blade? Did it whither or be consumed? Noooo. Nazgul #3: He got your cloak, Lord. Witch King: My cloak doesn't count! Nazgul #4: I think it was clearly obvious that your cloak does count. Nazgul #5: That sword clearly broke the spell that knit the cloaks fibers to your will. I'd say that pretty much definitive. Witch King: What are you talking about? Nazgul #4: He did break the spell... Witch King: What spell? Khamul: Whatever. I want my 4 fea, and no fair trying to pass me one of the Dead. They're no fun, and not very reliable. But you get your nine kittens. > Gandalf later says that some of the Nazgul followed him when he fled > from Weathertop to the North. I'd argue that the Nazgul didn't know > exactly where Frodo was... so they split up. Some to follow Gandalf, > who might lead them to the ringbearer, and some to watch the road and > Weathertop in case Gandalf was going somewhere else. I thought the exact same thing. I just left it out. I assume if they thought that they would be heavily resisted, they would have tried harder to gather all Nine for the attack. But they figured five was enough. Probably could have pulled it off with three, but maybe they wouldn't have had enough fear to help them. > I think that the two at the lip of the dell were intended to prevent > anyone from getting away, the two who stopped further down were > intended to cover the WK in case of any attack from Aragorn or the > other hobbits, and the WK was to drive the Morgul blade into Frodo's > heart, making him a wraith immediately. You mean, the two were intended to prevent the ringbearer from getting away, they hardly even notice anyone else. If Pippin would run away, I doubt they would have hindered him. > Hmmm. Where I disagree is in that the text indicates that the WK > missed his mark because Frodo fell forward. I dont remember it saying that he missed. Its implied, partly because we know that Elrond tells us later that it was going for his heart. I might be wrong. > The target was evidently > Frodo's heart and the indication was that if he had been struck there > Frodo would have become a minor wraith under their control. As such, > I think the goal WAS to get the Ring right away... Check out some of my responses. I analyzed this as a possibility depending on the workings of the Morgul blade. > It does seem clear that they intended to take Frodo back to Mordor > for torment, but that could be part of either plan. I daresay that was the part of *every* plan. Plan A: Subdue Ringbearer, take bearer and ring back to Mordor. Plan B: Kill everyone but ringbearer. Take ring. Take bearer to Mordor. Plan C: Abduct ringbearer with large batlike thing. Take ring. Take bearer back to Mordor. Plan D: Eat everyone but ringbearer. Take ring. Take bearer to Mordor. Plan E: Burn all of Eriador. Save bearer. Take ring. Take bearer to Mordor. Plan F: Full scale war. Find bearer. Take ring. Take bearer to Mordor. Plan G: Scare bearer into giving ring. Take bearer to Mordor. Plan H: Bearer joins our side. Take ring. Take him to Mordor anyways. Plan I: Bearer unconscious due to starvation. Take ring. Feed bearer when he gets to Mordor. Plan J: Make ringbearer give ring to another. Find other. Take ring. Find original bearer and bring them both to Mordor. ...Etc Probably all plans ended with bringing Frodo and anyone else connected with him to Mordor eventually to be... "questioned" (ie: "Are you still alive?" and "Does this hurt more or less?") I assume Gollum would be hunted down too. Sauron doesnt seem like one for letting such things go. But thats just one of my pet theories. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:05:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88812 In article <3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01>, corey_jeppesen wrote: > Another thought... Perhaps the ring itself prevented the Nazgul from > obtaining it directly. If I was Sauron, I might build that safeguard against > treachery into its design. It certainly didn't stop Isildur from seizing the Ring. > This has interesting implications for the Elven > rings, as well. Perhaps it wasn't the will of Galadriel that allowed her to > reject the ring when offered. Maybe it was the ring itself, protecting its > "Master" from anyone else drawing all the rings unto themselves. I'm on a > tangent here, I know, and one without a lot of evidence, too. I don't think so. From a narrative point of view, it would have cheapened her rejection. The other side was that the Wise clearly believed that they could seize the Ring directly. Gandalf was dismayed by Frodo's offer, showing that if he had wanted to, he could have taken the Ring. Tolkien states a number of times that this was Sauron's greatest fear, so he clearly knew that the Ring could be claimed and successfully seized by another being of sufficient stature and will. -- AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:09:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88811 In article <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com>, nihil wrote: > dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) wrote in message news:... >> I would guess that Sauron gave them a specific order to subdue the >> Ringbearer. Not primarily to bring him back with them, but to prevent >> his wielding the Ring against them. Remember that Sauron couldn't >> imagine someone who knew about the Ring not using its power. And >> if Frodo had been powerful enough, he could have used the Ring to >> stop the Nazgul taking direct action against him. > > Tolkien wrote about this in a Letter (which I dont have). The Nazgul > would have obeyed Frodo only in the things that would not oppose > Sauron's will. Tolkien does state this, but he was referring to Frodo and the Ring at Sammath Naur, where its power would have been greatest, and not necessarily in the wilds of Eriador. > Or if you mean, he could have caused fire and > destruction to stop them, then you have to remember it would take time > before he could control it like that. The Nazgul would have stalled > until Sauron could come and take the Ring himself, however long that > would take (New Discussion: What is the air speed velocity of an > unladen Maia?) Again, the Letter was referring to Mount Doom and the final crucial moments. -- AC ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 12 Jun 2002 16:08:46 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1023894526 212.130.21.179 (12 Jun 2002 16:08:46 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88862 "nihil" wrote: > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > > It does seem clear that they intended to take Frodo back to Mordor > > for torment, but that could be part of either plan. I'd go for "possible" rather than clear. I'm not completely sure that they actually intended to take Frodo with them all the way to Mordor even at the Ford of Bruinen. They do call to him to come to Mordor with them, but I'm pretty sure that once they had the Ring, Frodo would only allowed to delay their return to Mordor for only 'so long' before they would kill him and proceed with haste. Sauron might have been eager for a chance to interrogate Frodo, but not - I believe - enough to be willing to wait several weeks longer before regaining his Ring. > I daresay that was the part of *every* plan. The only thing I believe to have been part of *every* plan is getting the Master Ring. Getting the ringbearer was - according to my beliefs - more like "oh, and incidentally, if it doesn't present any danger or significant delay in returning you might as well bring the little critter who thought he could own _my_ Ring. If that's impossible you just make sure he won't be going around getting funny ideas, hear?" > I assume Gollum would be hunted down too. Sauron doesnt seem like one > for letting such things go. But thats just one of my pet theories. Eventually, yes. When this little war and a couple of other important things Sauron had going was completed. -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 12 Jun 2002 15:22:45 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 34 Message-ID: <922BB387Cpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1023895365 4824887 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88891 Nastał dzień 12 cze 2002, gdy Troels Forchhammer był łaskaw napisać: > >> I daresay that was the part of *every* plan. > >The only thing I believe to have been part of *every* plan is >getting the Master Ring. >Getting the ringbearer was - according to my beliefs - more like >"oh, and incidentally, if it doesn't present any danger or significant >delay in returning you might as well bring the little critter who thought >he could own _my_ Ring. If that's impossible you just make sure he >won't be going around getting funny ideas, hear?" > > I agree with this wholeheartedly. That's just something Sauron would say, I believe :) I don't even think he would need Frodo the way he needed Gollum -as source of information. With the Ring, what would he need information for? He would crush all his enemies anyway, he'd have no more need for spies and traitors... -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:20:34 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 44 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88953 Troels Forchhammer wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I'd go for "possible" rather than clear. >I'm not completely sure that they actually intended to take Frodo with >them all the way to Mordor even at the Ford of Bruinen. >They do call to him to come to Mordor with them, but I'm pretty sure >that once they had the Ring, Frodo would only allowed to delay their >return to Mordor for only 'so long' before they would kill him and >proceed with haste. Sauron might have been eager for a chance to >interrogate Frodo, but not - I believe - enough to be willing to >wait several weeks longer before regaining his Ring. From Boo I Chapter 2: 'To tell you the truth,' replied Gandalf, 'I believe that hitherto - hitherto, mark you - he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits. You should be thankful. But your safety has passed. He does not need you - he has many more useful servants - but he won't forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.' And in Book II Chapter 1, G tells Frodo: 'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.' (end quote) So I think Frodo would have been taken back to Mordor, so that Sauron ccould have the pleasure of tormenting him. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com/ "One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." -- Steven Weinberg, in /Facing Up/ (2001) ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 13 Jun 2002 05:53:18 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206130453.5c724818@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023972799 19413 127.0.0.1 (13 Jun 2002 12:53:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2002 12:53:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88957 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:<3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se>... > > I daresay that was the part of *every* plan. > > The only thing I believe to have been part of *every* plan is > getting the Master Ring. > Getting the ringbearer was - according to my beliefs - more like > "oh, and incidentally, if it doesn't present any danger or significant > delay in returning you might as well bring the little critter who thought > he could own _my_ Ring. If that's impossible you just make sure he > won't be going around getting funny ideas, hear?" Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that they would take Frodo with them immediately. But my impression (and someone posted the quotes which gave me this impression) was that if Sauron got the Ring. He would probably track Frodo down and capture him. Even if it took 10 years after he got his Ring back, he would probably make sure that Frodo was punished, if he was still alive. Its fairly evident that Sauron (aka Gorthaur the Cruel) was very familiar with both torture and malice. Its a pet theory. No real way to prove it. ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 13 Jun 2002 06:04:24 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206130504.29e993f@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com> <3D06175E.8090504@cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023973465 20171 127.0.0.1 (13 Jun 2002 13:04:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2002 13:04:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88959 Vilhelm Sjoberg wrote in message news:<3D06175E.8090504@cam.ac.uk>... > Letter 246, which states that the Nazgul "could not have attacked > [Frodo] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive" if > he had used the ring and commanded him not to. So they would have had to > stall and wait for Sauron. > > So I think that this is an excellent argument for why the Nazgul used > the morgul knife instead of trying to attack directly. Thank you, you've modified my views. How about this: The Nazgul dont really know which of the hobbits is the ringbearer, so they exert their wills or whatever to coerce Frodo into putting on the Ring. Suddenly they see a hobbit pop into focus, wearing the Ring. They know they have to stab him quick in case he somehow commands them to stop (perhaps even screaming "No, Stop!" could have been effective -- who knows). To their horror, the runt starts spouting this 'Elbereth' nonsense (which some of them might recognize) and so the Witch King rushes to stab him. After the stab, their mission is acomplished and they retreat away. Sound better? ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d08a04c@news.wineasy.se> Date: 13 Jun 2002 14:38:20 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1023975500 212.130.21.179 (13 Jun 2002 14:38:20 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsrouter.chello.at!news01.chello.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.stupi.se!wineasy!newsfeed2.wineasy.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88928 "Stan Brown" wrote: > Troels Forchhammer wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >They do call to him to come to Mordor with them, but I'm pretty sure > >that once they had the Ring, Frodo would only allowed to delay their > >return to Mordor for only 'so long' before they would kill him and > >proceed with haste. Sauron might have been eager for a chance to > >interrogate Frodo, but not - I believe - enough to be willing to > >wait several weeks longer before regaining his Ring. > So I think Frodo would have been taken back to Mordor, so that > Sauron ccould have the pleasure of tormenting him. I agree that they (including Sauron) would have considered that the ideal end to the hunt. I am sure that Sauron would have loved to be unleasant to Frodo - and anyone with him for that sake - but I believe that the Mordor side (both envoys and master) would allow this to endanger the succesful return of the Ring in any way nor delay it significantly (we can always nitpick about how much that would be - the point is that the longer time the Nazgűl spend travelling back to Mordor with the Ring, the greater the risk would be of someone trying to take it back - and possibly succeeding). My point is that getting Frodo with them to Mordor was a nice-to- have while getting the One Ring to Mordor was a must. The former would in *no* way be allowed to stand in the way of the latter -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) ###### From: jsibleywebster@mindspring.com (James Webster) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 13 Jun 2002 20:11:31 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> <3d08a04c@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.d3.45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!user-2ivfkq5.dsl.mindspring.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88968 Getting lost in all this is the question: since the Nazgul clearly saw that Frodo had the Ring, wouldn't they have continued to spy him out after the Fellowship left Rivendell? I have a hard time believing that Sauron, once notified by the Nazgul, would have allowed him to escape so easily. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> <3d08a04c@news.wineasy.se> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:28:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88967 In article , James Webster wrote: > Getting lost in all this is the question: since the Nazgul clearly saw > that Frodo had the Ring, wouldn't they have continued to spy him out after > the Fellowship left Rivendell? I have a hard time believing that Sauron, > once notified by the Nazgul, would have allowed him to escape so easily. The Nazgul were in no position to spy on the Fellowship. They had to make their way back to Sauron as best they could after the Fords. Sauron also had other things on the go, like destroying Gondor. He clearly needed the Nazgul for other purposes. Sauron never imagined that his enemies would destroy the Ring. He thought that the Ring would lead to strife between the mightiest in stature (ie. Denethor, Gandalf, Galadriel and later, when he revealed himself, Aragorn). Sauron knew that it would take time for the new master of the Ring to master its powers, and during that time, if he struck hard and fast enough, he could successfully retake the Ring. This is why he sent a Nazgul to Orthanc after Pippin's encounter with the Palantir, and why he rushed into battle before his plans were ripe when the heir of Elendil revealed himself. -- AC "For a politician to complain about the press is like a ship's captain complaining about the sea." - Enoch Powell ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com> <3D06175E.8090504@cam.ac.uk> <5d5a7abb.0206130504.29e993f@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d09dc07$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 14 Jun 2002 13:05:27 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1024056327 212.130.21.179 (14 Jun 2002 13:05:27 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88977 "Doug Elrod" wrote: > at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) wrote: > > Vilhelm Sjoberg wrote: > > > Letter 246, which states that the Nazgul "could not have attacked > > > [Frodo] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive" if > > > he had used the ring and commanded him not to. So they would have had to > > > stall and wait for Sauron. > > > > > > So I think that this is an excellent argument for why the Nazgul used > > > the morgul knife instead of trying to attack directly. > > > > Thank you, you've modified my views. How about this: The Nazgul dont > > really know which of the hobbits is the ringbearer, so they exert > > their wills or whatever to coerce Frodo into putting on the Ring. > > Is that really necessary? Couldn't it just be the Ring itself responding > to the presence of the Nazgul (through the fact that Frodo sees him, > perhaps)? It clearly has addictive/persuasive powers. We know the Nazgul > induce fear in most mortals, but is there evidence for a mind-control > ability, besides Frodo's compulsion to put on the Ring? I believe you're right - the desire to put on the Ring comes from the Ring itself - not from the Nazgűl. And as you say, the situation in the Morgul vale supports this. The Nazgűl may have had a way of strengthening this command / desire, but for the purpose of explaining their initial hesitation in the dell at Weathertop, it is not even necessary that they _know_ about this 'feature' of the Ring (though it would be perhaps easier to give a consistent explanation if they know that the bearer will somehow give himself away in their presence. In this case they would be waiting for this 'sign' - and expecting it they are capable of reacting very quickly when Frodo does put on the Ring). -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to (t.forch@mail.dk) People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid. Soren Kierkegaard ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 14 Jun 2002 09:08:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206140808.79b1e25a@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com> <3D06175E.8090504@cam.ac.uk> <5d5a7abb.0206130504.29e993f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024070921 22741 127.0.0.1 (14 Jun 2002 16:08:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 16:08:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89012 dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) wrote in message news:... > > How about this: The Nazgul dont > > really know which of the hobbits is the ringbearer, so they exert > > their wills or whatever to coerce Frodo into putting on the Ring. > > Is that really necessary? Couldn't it just be the Ring itself responding > to the presence of the Nazgul (through the fact that Frodo sees him, > perhaps)? It clearly has addictive/persuasive powers. Well, yes of course. I was using my 'vulgar' voice. Many people seem to think its a power the Nazgul have, and I've always disagreed with them. My view of the Nazgul is a lot "weaker" than many other people, and drastically different than some who can't seem to separate Tolkien from D&D ("The Witch King had a 'Protection from Normal Weapons' spell!" -- If only Theoden could have cast 'Breach' before he died....). I agree more with your view. The desire Frodo felt to put on the ring was caused by the Nazgul simply being around. However, I dont doubt they knew this would happen. I was just tryint to prevent a tangent forming. Hence the informality and the use of "...or whatever". ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 14 Jun 2002 09:09:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206140809.3e50fb62@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3D0399CF.CE2E5017@ThisIsFake.dk> <5d5a7abb.0206092022.215664ad@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110607.65ef2950@posting.google.com> <3D06175E.8090504@cam.ac.uk> <5d5a7abb.0206130504.29e993f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024070963 22808 127.0.0.1 (14 Jun 2002 16:09:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 16:09:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89011 dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) wrote in message news:... > > How about this: The Nazgul dont > > really know which of the hobbits is the ringbearer, so they exert > > their wills or whatever to coerce Frodo into putting on the Ring. > > Is that really necessary? Couldn't it just be the Ring itself responding > to the presence of the Nazgul (through the fact that Frodo sees him, > perhaps)? It clearly has addictive/persuasive powers. Well, yes of course. I was using my 'vulgar' voice. Many people seem to think its a power the Nazgul have, and I've always disagreed with them. My view of the Nazgul is a lot "weaker" than many other people, and drastically different than some who can't seem to separate Tolkien from D&D ("The Witch King had a 'Protection from Normal Weapons' spell!" -- If only Theoden could have cast 'Breach' before he died....). I agree more with your view. The desire Frodo felt to put on the ring was caused by the Nazgul simply being around. However, I dont doubt they knew this would happen. I was just tryint to prevent a tangent forming. Hence the informality and the use of "...or whatever". ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:22:25 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 11 Message-ID: <18603-3D0A1841-57@storefull-2152.public.lawson.webtv.net> References: <5d5a7abb.0206110617.5f7f6b88@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQ0Nt3Zw5oEjYAyzjRW+Uyr+0pjhAIUaTL0nMS/+Y/Kv59zzlfJMrMfvDY= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!newssorter-2001.public.lawson.webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88984 at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) writes: >Am I sadistic for thinking of these >things? Yes. If you're single, I'm free ;-) Windy ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Message-ID: <160620021956083572%dsalo@usa.net> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> <3D0CE6D4.22E5E0C6@ThisIsFake.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 11 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 00:53:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1024275188 208.170.95.160 (Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:53:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:53:08 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!172.16.10.2.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89105 In article <3D0CE6D4.22E5E0C6@ThisIsFake.dk>, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Adding a hobbit to the load - even if significantly lighter than when he > left the Shire - will slow the horse just a little, and then there might > be > a problem feeding him until he became a full wraith DON'T FEED THE WRAITH! DS ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3d0763fe$1@news.wineasy.se> <3D0CE6D4.22E5E0C6@ThisIsFake.dk> <160620021956083572%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d0dd5a3$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 17 Jun 2002 13:27:15 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1024316835 212.130.21.179 (17 Jun 2002 13:27:15 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89106 "David Salo" wrote: > Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > > and then there might be > > a problem feeding him until he became a full wraith > > DON'T FEED THE WRAITH! LOL (I guess my colleagues are used to odd behaviour from me by now ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk "I'd like to know if I could compare you to a summer's day. Because -- well, June 12th was quite nice, and..." -- (Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters) ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:10:17 -0400 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGF51vOqCmVXO2ED51T4i/pIlLSC+AoaMCk948lb3mY7AWYRUf8vqU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2002 00:47:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89148 nihil made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Witch King: ...and 3 newborn kittens for each mortal who I crumple > with fear. > Khamul: > But you get > your nine kittens. What would he do with those kittens? Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 18 Jun 2002 05:45:40 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024404342 28510 127.0.0.1 (18 Jun 2002 12:45:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2002 12:45:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89217 Ermanna wrote in message news:<3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com>... > nihil made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > Witch King: ...and 3 newborn kittens for each mortal who I crumple > > with fear. > > > Khamul: > > > But you get > > your nine kittens. > > What would he do with those kittens? Oh. I thought it was obvious. Wraiths dont need to eat, and they live forever. That means they are bored. They cant really eat the kittens (why would they want to). And they can't play with them (they'd get the black breath before they could even get halfway up any of the Nazgul's cloaks). Plus, the Nazgul wouldn't be able to see them very well. So obviously, you (gently) stab them with 9 morgul blades, wait a day or so, and poof! nine kitten-wraiths. They'll always stay kittens, they wont eat, and the Nazgul would be able to see them really well so they wouldn't get into too much trouble. Of course they would still chew on the Nazgul's socks and hauberks, and play under their cloaks while they slept, but thats what kittens do. Voila! Nazgul pets. Plus: I think kittenwraiths would be kinda creepy. Sauron would approve. ###### From: "Yuk Tang" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:40:24 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-17-94.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1024429224 16467 213.122.17.94 (18 Jun 2002 19:40:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:40:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89191 nihil wrote in message news:5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com... > > So obviously, you (gently) stab them with 9 morgul blades, wait a day > or so, and poof! nine kitten-wraiths. They'll always stay kittens, > they wont eat, and the Nazgul would be able to see them really well so > they wouldn't get into too much trouble. Of course they would still > chew on the Nazgul's socks and hauberks, and play under their cloaks > while they slept, but thats what kittens do. > > Voila! Nazgul pets. Pratchett-esque. Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:40:55 -0400 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@quantum.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbzLGS0equq8AzIuCD+3va3WO9fl3X9tvPQAHj+N1gom7BSagD4JiRB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2002 02:28:26 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89159 nihil made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Ermanna wrote in message news:<3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com>... > > nihil made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > > > Witch King: ...and 3 newborn kittens for each mortal who I crumple > > > with fear. > > > > > Khamul: > > > > > But you get > > > your nine kittens. > > > > What would he do with those kittens? > > Oh. I thought it was obvious. > Voila! Nazgul pets. > > Plus: I think kittenwraiths would be kinda creepy. Sauron would > approve. Horrible! True evil! Kill the Nazgul! Kill them, before they enslave poor, helpless kittens everywhere! Protect your kittens! Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:28:00 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1024460959 21611 192.168.46.136 (19 Jun 2002 04:29:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2002 04:29:19 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89205 In article <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net>, Ermanna (Ermanna@quantum.net) says... > > nihil made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > Ermanna wrote in message news:<3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com>... > > > nihil made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > > > > > Witch King: ...and 3 newborn kittens for each mortal who I crumple > > > > with fear. > > > > > > > Khamul: > > > > > > > But you get > > > > your nine kittens. > > > > > > What would he do with those kittens? > > > > Oh. I thought it was obvious. > > > Voila! Nazgul pets. > > > > Plus: I think kittenwraiths would be kinda creepy. Sauron would > > approve. > > Horrible! True evil! Kill the Nazgul! Kill them, before they enslave > poor, helpless kittens everywhere! Protect your kittens! :( Bigot. /me goes and hides in the corner. -- *Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul* Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks Unfortunately Not Stuck with Menny. "If Tolkien had meant for us to have a sense of humor, he would have told us so." - Mark Reichart ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 19 Jun 2002 06:53:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206190553.317694be@posting.google.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024494824 17649 127.0.0.1 (19 Jun 2002 13:53:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2002 13:53:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89213 Ermanna wrote in message news:<3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net>... > Horrible! True evil! Kill the Nazgul! Kill them, before they enslave > poor, helpless kittens everywhere! Protect your kittens! You *did* ask... I mean.... they are agents of evil. What did you expect? That they would donate them to a nice hobbit home? ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:44:59 -0400 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbWS0sDum2ADpmdWqw3NlW2k7PtRiVf1eroeg2v1Q8eOjIfj7ynYeqH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jun 2002 00:09:14 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89232 Donald Shepherd made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > In article <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net>, Ermanna (Ermanna@quantum.net) > says... > > Horrible! True evil! Kill the Nazgul! Kill them, before they enslave > > poor, helpless kittens everywhere! Protect your kittens! > > :( > > Bigot. > > /me goes and hides in the corner. I'm not just against Nazgul hurting kittens! I'm against anyone hurting kittens! I just condemned Nazgul in particular because nihil mentioned them. I don't mind you if you promise not to hurt kittens. > -- > *Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul* > Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks > Unfortunately Not Stuck with Menny. > "If Tolkien had meant for us to have a sense of humor, he would have told > us so." - Mark Reichart Ermanna the Cat-Admirer Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:00:09 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1024534896 10381 192.168.46.136 (20 Jun 2002 01:01:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jun 2002 01:01:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89257 In article <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com>, Ermanna (Ermanna@erols.com) says... > > Donald Shepherd made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > In article <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net>, Ermanna (Ermanna@quantum.net) > > says... > > > > Horrible! True evil! Kill the Nazgul! Kill them, before they enslave > > > poor, helpless kittens everywhere! Protect your kittens! > > > > :( > > > > Bigot. > > > > /me goes and hides in the corner. > > I'm not just against Nazgul hurting kittens! I'm against anyone > hurting kittens! I just condemned Nazgul in particular because > nihil mentioned them. I don't mind you if you promise not to hurt > kittens. So then how come you're not shouting "Kill Everyone! Kill them, before they enslave poor, helpless kittens everywhere!"... -- *Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul* Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks Unfortunately Not Stuck with Menny. Not particularly reassured. ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:00:11 -0400 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaF4vYvi/mlzMxzr7syzIY83Ib4QBp4BSDoMLSkI8tkPiE74BJzpLoY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jun 2002 20:33:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89295 Donald Shepherd made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > In article <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com>, Ermanna (Ermanna@erols.com) > says... > > Donald Shepherd made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > In article <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net>, Ermanna (Ermanna@quantum.net) > > > says... > > > > > > Horrible! True evil! Kill the Nazgul! Kill them, before they enslave > > > > poor, helpless kittens everywhere! Protect your kittens! > > > > > > :( > > > > > > Bigot. > > > > > > /me goes and hides in the corner. > > > > I'm not just against Nazgul hurting kittens! I'm against anyone > > hurting kittens! I just condemned Nazgul in particular because > > nihil mentioned them. I don't mind you if you promise not to hurt > > kittens. > > So then how come you're not shouting "Kill Everyone! Kill them, before > they enslave poor, helpless kittens everywhere!"... If it makes you happy: Kill Everyone! Kill them, before they enslave poor, helpless kittens everywhere! > -- > *Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul* > Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks > Unfortunately Not Stuck with Menny. > Not particularly reassured. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles "Kill them! Kill them all before it's too late!" ###### Lines: 7 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 20 Jun 2002 21:06:55 GMT References: <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Message-ID: <20020620170655.10978.00000008@mb-fn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89297 >"Kill them! Kill them all before it's too late!" > Don't look Ephel !!!!! \ 0 / 3 / \ ###### From: Bagronk the Happy Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:40:32 +0200 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.254.134.199 X-Trace: 20 Jun 2002 23:40:00 +0200, 145.254.134.199 Lines: 24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!151.189.0.75!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!145.254.134.199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89303 I found some words from "Morgil Blackhope" in my phone cable... > > Ermanna kirjoitti viestissä <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com>... > > >Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, > >Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, > >Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles > > > >"Kill them! Kill them all before it's too late!" > > Phunny. That's what the voice inside my head says too... :) > > Morgil uh, oh... now I'm starting to feel really insecure... I won't sleep too well tonight in my Orc-hole (the one with the nice kitten fur carpet :-> ) -- Bagronk the Happy Orc Every text becomes absurd after a certain amount of bytes. If it exceeds this length, the reader’s brain implodes. (IGfrI) ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:51:09 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1024624350 29026 192.168.46.136 (21 Jun 2002 01:52:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2002 01:52:30 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89327 In article , Bagronk the Happy Orc (NOvr-stefSPanienAM@arcor.de) says... > I found some words from "Morgil Blackhope" in > my phone cable... > > > > Ermanna kirjoitti viestissä <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com>... > > > > >Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, > > >Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, > > >Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles > > > > > >"Kill them! Kill them all before it's too late!" > > > > Phunny. That's what the voice inside my head says too... :) > > > > Morgil > > uh, oh... now I'm starting to feel really insecure... I won't sleep > too well tonight in my Orc-hole (the one with the nice kitten fur > carpet :-> ) It's alright, Morgil doesn't know where you live. OTOH, he can find out where I live easily enough, but my voices can take his voices without breaking a sweat. -- *Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul* Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks Unfortunately Not Stuck with Menny. "If Tolkien had meant for us to have a sense of humor, he would have told us so." - Mark Reichart ###### From: Bagronk the Happy Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:04:00 +0200 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.254.129.86 X-Trace: 22 Jun 2002 19:03:27 +0200, 145.254.129.86 Lines: 34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!145.254.129.86 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89367 I found some words from Donald Shepherd in my phone cable... > In article , Bagronk the > Happy Orc (NOvr-stefSPanienAM@arcor.de) says... > > I found some words from "Morgil Blackhope" in > > my phone cable... > > > > > > Ermanna kirjoitti viestissä <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com>... > > > > > > >Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, > > > >Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, > > > >Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles > > > > > > > >"Kill them! Kill them all before it's too late!" > > > > > > Phunny. That's what the voice inside my head says too... :) > > > > > > Morgil > > > > uh, oh... now I'm starting to feel really insecure... I won't sleep > > too well tonight in my Orc-hole (the one with the nice kitten fur > > carpet :-> ) > > It's alright, Morgil doesn't know where you live. He and Ermanna can find out easily by approaching Ered Dugburz from the southwest and then simply following the desperate cries of breakfast kittens... aww, I'm getting carried away. -- Bagronk the Happy Orc Every text becomes absurd after a certain amount of bytes. If it exceeds this length, the reader’s brain implodes. (IGfrI) ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: 23 Jun 2002 22:02:28 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024894948 16997 127.0.0.1 (24 Jun 2002 05:02:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2002 05:02:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89431 "corey_jeppesen" wrote in message news:<3PgN8.157612$cQ3.4612@sccrnsc01>... > > By the way, It was prophesied that the Witch King would not be slain by a > man. He would have had nothing to fear from Aragorn. If the Nazgul retreated > for any other reason than to allow the poison time to claim Frodo, it was > because they feared the hobbits (doubtful), or the potential power latent in > the ringbearer. It's very dangerous to assume too much from a prophecy, as Galadriel points out. Suppose Aragorn wielded the One Ring to command the Witch-King to impale himself on Sam's knife, would that be a technical fulfillment of the prophecy? Shermanlee ###### Lines: 43 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Jun 2002 14:24:15 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Message-ID: <20020624102415.16954.00000679@mb-fv.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!isdnet!64.12.151.230.MISMATCH!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89421 Me: Still mad at me Cathy? Cathy: Yes. ... ... ... ... ... Me: You have the cutest way of showing how mad you are. Cathy: Mmmm. Me: Come here; I want to see your face. Cathy: God damn you to hell. Me: Ha! Why? Cathy: I saw you looking at that, _piece_, at McCormick. [Enters] Me: Does that bother you? Me: It's only looking. Cathy: You hardly look at me that way. Darling. Me: I'm looking at you right now. I'm even talking to you. Cathy: Bastard. Me: Turn around then. I don't have leverage . . . Cathy: I hate it when you hold my leg that way. I can't see you. Me: I thought you were mad at me. Cathy: I am. Wow! Me: Yeah, I've got my feets against the wall. A solid foundation makes for good leverage. Cathy: Asshole. You always do that. Me: Do what? Cathy: Ruin the mood. Me: What mood? I'm hard, you're wet. Cathy: Asshole. [Time passes] Me: I'm sleepy hon. Cathy: Go to sleep then. Me: It's only 2:45. Me: I'm really sleepy; didn't get much sleep last night. Cathy: Come then. Want me to hold them? Me: Zzzzzzzzzz. Cathy: I'm still mad at you. Darling. Me: Zzzzzzzzzz. Cathy: Is this makeup sex. God. Me: Eh? No, the good stuff is the makeup cuddle, lasts all of 5 seconds before we sleep. All of 5 seconds before we sleep. Cathy: Fine. Zzzzzzzz. Me: That's my girl. [kisses back of her head; she smiles] Cathy: I love you. Me: I know you do. ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> <3D15E26C.4F5720F6@erols.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:11:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.195.55.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1025539883 80.195.55.99 (Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:11:23 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:11:23 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89803 "Ermanna" wrote > People who don't like cats were > probably mice in an earlier life. Or rats in this one. -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 10:18:50 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <4h31iuoef310ta2hp967uetn8617roerpp@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> <3D15E26C.4F5720F6@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!netnews.com!nntp.abs.net!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89798 On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:11:23 GMT, "Jette Goldie" wrote: > >"Ermanna" wrote >> People who don't like cats were >> probably mice in an earlier life. > >Or rats in this one. > I resent that! (Owned by up to eleven cats at once. Due to sickness and death, now just nine.) PPPPPPBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTT from Amanda, Sally, Sammy, Beta, Butchie, Grace, Eclipse, Bruno, and Fluffie. the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacement anyway. ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 Jul 2002 17:46:24 GMT References: <4h31iuoef310ta2hp967uetn8617roerpp@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Message-ID: <20020701134624.16867.00002293@mb-fv.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89762 > now just nine On purpose. I can't count the number of people responsible for rape [handwave], and thus I can't count the number of people I have to kill, burn their houses to ash, and desecrate their daughters. Have a nice day! Mark ###### Message-ID: <3D20C580.1EDDF587@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> <3D15E26C.4F5720F6@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:11:28 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.207.159 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1025558120 194.125.207.159 (Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:15:20 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:15:20 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89808 Jette Goldie wrote: > > "Ermanna" wrote > > People who don't like cats were > > probably mice in an earlier life. > > Or rats in this one. Or bowls of milk... M. ###### From: Bagronk the Happy Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:21:25 +0200 Message-ID: References: <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> <3D15E26C.4F5720F6@erols.com> <4h31iuoef310ta2hp967uetn8617roerpp@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.254.135.157 X-Trace: 2 Jul 2002 00:20:50 +0200, 145.254.135.157 Lines: 19 X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!151.189.0.75!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!145.254.135.157 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89805 I found some words from the softrat in my phone cable... > I resent that! (Owned by up to eleven cats at once. Due to sickness > and death, now just nine.) > > PPPPPPBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHHPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTT > from Amanda, Sally, Sammy, Beta, Butchie, Grace, Eclipse, Bruno, and > Fluffie. "The Company of the Cats shall be Nine; and the Nine Ppbbtthhpptters shall be set against the Nine Kitten-Killers that are evil." Don't panic, for I'm only slightly hungry today, -- Bagronk the Happy Orc Every text becomes absurd after a certain amount of bytes. If it exceeds this length, the reader’s brain implodes. (IGfrI) ###### From: Jem Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:44:34 +0100 Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3D230DD2.1651334E@ford.com> References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> <3D15E26C.4F5720F6@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 19.151.88.90 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD cf476 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,de,fr,ja,ko,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws12.dearborn.ford.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89912 I like rats, i wouldnt mind being 1 they seem to live very interesting lives at least the pet 1s do jem Jette Goldie wrote: > > "Ermanna" wrote > > People who don't like cats were > > probably mice in an earlier life. > > Or rats in this one. > > -- > Jette > (aka Vinyaduriel) > "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes > jette@blueyonder.co.uk > http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ > http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <5d5a7abb.0206090657.6e7ec2fe@posting.google.com> <5d5a7abb.0206110704.3cd72f33@posting.google.com> <3D0E7A69.BC87A309@erols.com> <5d5a7abb.0206180445.4a623f4d@posting.google.com> <3D0FD317.96DC8668@quantum.net> <3D10D12B.7CD1FFA7@erols.com> <3D11D1DB.17C4632B@erols.com> <3D15E26C.4F5720F6@erols.com> <3D230DD2.1651334E@ford.com> Subject: Re: Essay: The Ulairi at Weathertop Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:42:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.195.55.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1025725329 80.195.55.99 (Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:42:09 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:42:09 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!oleane.net!oleane!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!151.189.0.75.MISMATCH!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsrouter.chello.at!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90071 "Jem" wrote in message news:3D230DD2.1651334E@ford.com... > I like rats, i wouldnt mind being 1 they seem to live very interesting > lives at least the pet 1s do > > jem Furry ones with tails aren't the problem ;-) -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html