From: Wojciech Tomanik Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Names of the good and the bad Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:04:49 +0200 Organization: tp.internet - http://www.tpi.pl/ Lines: 46 Message-ID: Reply-To: uaru@aip.pl NNTP-Posting-Host: gprs2.plusgsm.pl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.tpi.pl 1019592207 7636 212.2.96.8 (23 Apr 2002 20:03:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tpi.pl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:03:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.task.gda.pl!newsfeed.tpinternet.pl!news.tpi.pl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85203 Hello, Recently I was thinking about creation of the languages, and the names Tolkien invented, and then I realised: Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, they have an aura of something unpleasent even before we come to realise that they stand for very bad things. Something that is called Mordor just cannot be good;-) To the contrary, some names sound very nice from the very first time we encounter them. I suspect Tolkien intended it. But, well, I am not native English speaker, and presumably I should not have the faintest idea what should sound harsh to an English ear... still, sometimes I can feel the character of the name before I know what it is connected to... well, at least it is what I recollect of reading LOTR and Hobbit for the first time fifteen years ago... But now I am during my first attempt at Silmarillion, and that feeling about words is quite strong... and I thought all this is quite strange... but then I said to myself: "well, that IS great work, wow". but perhaps I think too much of it... perhaps we can attribute it just to common origin of nearly all European languages... or it is just me, who have this feeling... I wonder what you think about it... I would like to know, what other people not born in English speaking country think... Especially people speaking languages of really different origin... Regards, Wojtek P.S. This is my first post here, I hope the problem was not discussed recently, sorry if it was, I haven't noticed... This NG is very nice to read, I learned a lot about the books... Once again Hello to everybody! --- http://www.tcs.uni.wroc.pl/~tomanik/akwarium Wroclaw ###### From: "Pradera" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:20:25 +0200 Organization: Aster City Net Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl X-Trace: pingwin.acn.pl 1019593226 91956 62.121.78.42 (23 Apr 2002 20:20:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@astercity.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:20:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Tech-Contact: usenet@astercity.net X-Notice-1: This post has been postprocessed on the news.astercity.net. server. X-Notice-2: Subject line has been filtered and any Odp: strings removed. X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Server-Info: http://www.astercity.net/news/ X-I-Am-Sorry: For my poor newsreader. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Subject: Odp: Names of the good and the bad X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!teaser.fr!wanadoo.fr!proxad.net!isdnet!news.internetia.pl!news.astercity.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85236 And so a Polish newbie answers a Polish newbie :) Yes, it was so intended... Tolkien's adventure with language-making started from inventing individual names and sounds. It then evolved into a language, to which JRRT later thought up a story. That's a shortest way to put it, I suppose ;) In inventing a language that's supposed to sound and be 'natural' i.e. developed in natural process of speech evolution, it is neccessary to follow some natural ways of saying things (I am very unprecise here... hard thinking...must get sleep...). Being a linguist, a very good linguist, Tolkien certainly knew that for most of his future readers, as for himself, sounds like 'mor-', '-goth', 'gor-' etc. will sound harsh, unpleasant and somewhat evil, while other, like 'el-', 'val-', '-dil' sound much nicer. That is at least what I can think of as an answer this late at night ;) Pradera Uzytkownik Wojciech Tomanik w wiadomooci do grup dyskusyjnych napisa > Hello, > > Recently I was thinking about creation of the languages, and the names > Tolkien invented, and then I realised: > > Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, they have an > aura of something unpleasent even before we come to realise that they > stand for very bad things. Something that is called Mordor just > cannot be good;-) To the contrary, some names sound very nice from the > very first time we encounter them. > > I suspect Tolkien intended it. > ###### Lines: 63 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: temporarygabe@aol.com (TemporaryGaBe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 23 Apr 2002 20:54:51 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Message-ID: <20020423165451.08001.00005102@mb-cr.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85252 >Hello, hi >Recently I was thinking about creation of the languages, and the names >Tolkien invented, and then I realised: > >Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, they have an >aura of something unpleasent even before we come to realise that they >stand for very bad things. Something that is called Mordor just >cannot be good;-) To the contrary, some names sound very nice from the >very first time we encounter them. > >I suspect Tolkien intended it. > Well I think the harsh sound of Mordor is twofold. Mor- already conjures up the idea of death (the prefix mort), and with -dor sounding remotely like dark, it's no surprise that Mordor isn't particularly pleasant sounding. >But, well, I am not native English speaker, and presumably I should >not have the faintest idea what should sound harsh to an English >ear... still, sometimes I can feel the character of the name before I >know what it is connected to... "Softer" sounds may be more inclined to good, or so Tolkien trains us: Glorfindel, Celeborn, Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Legolas, Elendil, Gil-Galad, Haldir, Gildor, etc. Even Melkor isn't as bad as the "l"-less Morgoth. The Serpentine Saruman and Grimy Grima are two that jump right out. I'm sur ethere are scores more. >well, at least it is what I recollect of reading LOTR and Hobbit for >the first time fifteen years ago... But now I am during my first >attempt at Silmarillion, and that feeling about words is quite >strong... I agree >and I thought all this is quite strange... but then I said to myself: >"well, that IS great work, wow". > >but perhaps I think too much of it... perhaps we can attribute it just >to common origin of nearly all European languages... or it is just me, >who have this feeling... > >I wonder what you think about it... I would like to know, what other >people not born in English speaking country think... Especially people >speaking languages of really different origin... Has LotR been translated into Basque? > >Regards, >Wojtek > >P.S. This is my first post here, I hope the problem was not discussed >recently, sorry if it was, I haven't noticed... >This NG is very nice to read, I learned a lot about the books... >Once again Hello to everybody! Hello again and welcome gabe ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:47:23 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85319 Wojciech Tomanik wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, I'll grant you "Gorgoroth", though I wonder how much I am predisposed because of knowing about the Gorgons. But "Mordor" harsh? I don't think so. The "m" sound is quite soothing, and "r" is called a liquid consonant. If you just heard the word "Mordor", without any notion what it _meant_, do you truly think you'd find it harsh? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "kafine" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:35:59 +1200 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p51-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1019623174 13304 203.173.192.51 (24 Apr 2002 04:39:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 04:39:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85235 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.172ff4d1a211ccaa98991d@news.odyssey.net... > Wojciech Tomanik wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, > > I'll grant you "Gorgoroth", though I wonder how much I am > predisposed because of knowing about the Gorgons. > > But "Mordor" harsh? I don't think so. The "m" sound is quite > soothing, and "r" is called a liquid consonant. If you just heard > the word "Mordor", without any notion what it _meant_, do you truly > think you'd find it harsh? > "Mordor" in old english(?) means something along the lines of "a secret murder", if I remember my uni paper correctly. It also reminds me of the word used in the film Heavenly Creatures; "Moider", which is what the real life Pauline Parker and Juliet Hulme called their act of murder. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:15:00 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <6cfccuom0sv53lvira44j5hr9l1gb7grrr@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85329 On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:04:49 +0200, Wojciech Tomanik wrote: > >But, well, I am not native English speaker, and presumably I should >not have the faintest idea what should sound harsh to an English >ear... still, sometimes I can feel the character of the name before I >know what it is connected to... > Well, yes. By your name, Polish? But Tolkien, as a philologist, was familiar with all of the related Indo-European languages, which share linguistic preferences. So his names would also ring bells with Slavs, Greeks, Indians, Persians, Armenians, Albanians, etc. as well as the Western European Celts, Germans, and Latins. What is more interesting to me is that apparently the same bells exist for Hungarians and Finns, members of a different linguistic group (Finno-Ugric). I wonder if they partake of some language universal. How about that you Basques and Semites out there? the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Turn on, tune in, drop out. Do not attempt while in an aeroplane. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: 24 Apr 2002 22:52:42 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6u4ri0hl9h.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20020423165451.08001.00005102@mb-cr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1019681565 2037 10.0.3.2 (24 Apr 2002 20:52:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Apr 2002 20:52:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85334 temporarygabe@aol.com (TemporaryGaBe) writes: > >Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, they have an > >aura of something unpleasent even before we come to realise that they > >stand for very bad things. Something that is called Mordor just > >cannot be good;-) To the contrary, some names sound very nice from the > >very first time we encounter them. > > Well I think the harsh sound of Mordor is twofold. Mor- already conjures up > the idea of death (the prefix mort), and with -dor sounding remotely like dark , > it's no surprise that Mordor isn't particularly pleasant sounding. Problem with this theory is that the name Mordor (= black land) only was invented while writing LotR in the 1930s, using the parts: - "mor" (= black) as in Morwen (= black (haired) woman, Hurins wife) - "dor" (= land) as in Doriath (= fenced land, one of the elf kings realms) both appear already in BoLT I/II (printed in HoME I and II), written around 1920. Neither of these were bad things, so their names are unlikely intended to sound bad. Of course both Doriath and particularly Morwen did some bad stuff, when getting wrapped up in Morgoths designs, but neither was bad in its hart. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: "Daniel Garrido" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:37:56 +0200 Organization: C.I.C.A. Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: c33.lcc.uma.es X-Trace: mercurio.cica.es 1019745462 2938 150.214.108.43 (25 Apr 2002 14:37:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cica.es NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Apr 2002 14:37:42 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.rediris.es!News.cica.es!""!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85466 Hi, A spanish answer... > Such names like Mordor, Gorgoroth, etc are rather harsh, they have an > aura of something unpleasent even before we come to realise that they > stand for very bad things. Something that is called Mordor just > cannot be good;-) To the contrary, some names sound very nice from the > very first time we encounter them. I agree... Tolkien tried to join the meaning of a word with its sound... Personally, the word "Lindon" automatically has a "musical" sense... > I suspect Tolkien intended it. > > But, well, I am not native English speaker, and presumably I should > not have the faintest idea what should sound harsh to an English > ear... still, sometimes I can feel the character of the name before I > know what it is connected to... > > well, at least it is what I recollect of reading LOTR and Hobbit for > the first time fifteen years ago... But now I am during my first > attempt at Silmarillion, and that feeling about words is quite > strong... > > and I thought all this is quite strange... but then I said to myself: > "well, that IS great work, wow". > > but perhaps I think too much of it... perhaps we can attribute it just > to common origin of nearly all European languages... or it is just me, > who have this feeling... Probabilly. The european languages have a common origin: the indoeuropean (I'm not a linguist, I hope don't be wrong) > > I wonder what you think about it... I would like to know, what other > people not born in English speaking country think... Especially people > speaking languages of really different origin... > Bye... ###### From: "Peter J Charlton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:28:31 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.54.199.203 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1019813348 210.54.199.203 (Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:29:08 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:29:08 NZST Organization: Xtra Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85511 "Daniel Garrido" wrote in message news:aa94bm$2rq$1@mercurio.cica.es... > Hi, > > I agree... Tolkien tried to join the meaning of a word with its sound... > Personally, the word "Lindon" automatically has a "musical" sense... I wonder if Tolkien chose it because it would unconsciously evoke an association with Jenny Lind, the 'Swedish Nightingale'? Peter. ###### From: "Daniel Garrido" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Names of the good and the bad Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:28:30 +0200 Organization: C.I.C.A. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: c33.lcc.uma.es X-Trace: mercurio.cica.es 1019824102 2787 150.214.108.43 (26 Apr 2002 12:28:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cica.es NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Apr 2002 12:28:22 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.rediris.es!News.cica.es!""!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:85461 "Peter J Charlton" escribió en el mensaje news:E59y8.2257$lA2.173681@news.xtra.co.nz... > > "Daniel Garrido" wrote in message > news:aa94bm$2rq$1@mercurio.cica.es... > > Hi, > > > > I agree... Tolkien tried to join the meaning of a word with its sound... > > Personally, the word "Lindon" automatically has a "musical" sense... > > I wonder if Tolkien chose it because it would unconsciously evoke > an association with Jenny Lind, the 'Swedish Nightingale'? > > Peter. > Hi, I don't believe it..... I never read nothing about Jenny Lind.... ;-) Tolkien as a linguist know perfectly what he was doing... he chose words that "sounds" according to his intention. Bye...