From: "wdcbarone" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: origins Lines: 4 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:05:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.96.62.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news2.west.cox.net 1018580734 68.96.62.28 (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:05:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:05:34 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!cox.net!news2.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84014 Was there any mention of elves, orcs, goblins, etc or are all of these mythical beings of Tolkien's creation? ###### From: "Brett Evill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: origins Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:07:11 +1000 Organization: unaffiliated Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3cb65d48$1@iridium.webone.com.au> References: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridium.webone.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1018584404 15854 210.8.44.3 (12 Apr 2002 04:06:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Apr 2002 04:06:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-ctb03139.webone.com.au X-Original-Trace: 12 Apr 2002 14:06:32 +1000, dial-ctb03139.webone.com.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!iridium.webone.com.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83950 In article <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> , "wdcbarone" wrote: >Was there any mention of elves, orcs, goblins, etc or are all of these >mythical beings of Tolkien's creation? Was there any mention of them where? Tolkien took elves and goblins from English (generalised Germanic) folk belief. 'Orc' is a word he derived himself from a slightly different word occurring in the Anglo-Saxon poem 'Beowulf', and used to replace 'goblin' in his setting. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: Nils Gustaf Lindgren Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: origins Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:21:54 +0200 Organization: Dr Chips AB Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3CB66EF2.CDE54109@drchips.se> References: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> <3cb65d48$1@iridium.webone.com.au> Reply-To: nils.lindgren@drchips.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu168-209.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: green.tninet.se 1018588921 16693 195.163.209.168 (12 Apr 2002 05:22:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 05:22:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!news2.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83820 > Tolkien took elves and goblins from English (generalised Germanic) folk > belief. 'Orc' is a word he derived himself from a slightly different > word occurring in the Anglo-Saxon poem 'Beowulf', and used to replace > 'goblin' in his setting. And 'ent' means giant in Old English - that too is from 'Beowulf' Nils Gustaf shrink hacker ealdar enten geweorc ###### From: "jere7my tho?rpe" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: origins Organization: Bongo's Madness Hats References: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> <3cb65d48$1@iridium.webone.com.au> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:34:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.183.101 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 1018593275 207.75.183.101 (Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:34:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:34:35 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!jere7my Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83873 In article <3cb65d48$1@iridium.webone.com.au>, "Brett Evill" wrote: > 'Orc' is a word he derived himself from a slightly different > word occurring in the Anglo-Saxon poem 'Beowulf', Incidentally, it was originally a water-demon; it's the same root as the English word "orca," killer whale. ----j7y -- ************************************************************************* jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "Homo sum: humani nihil a me http://homepage.mac.com/jere7my alienum puto." ---Terentius ###### Message-ID: <3CB6AD3D.6036B055@mfx.net> From: pmhilton@mfx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: origins References: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 04:48:23 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-tDphIJ6EFp2Wy/T8RdbCWpRFDNoXjWEgRuXCgeeGxBm4DKh2E77XvAPmm8xPk2Y9qfllkaBP9laiv2s!yGzAH2dmlShSYbwTWAwyGY1hNNEOBPGyk/cs5KEGp5cZRF/gEfTS5Fo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:48:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!teaser.fr!easynet-quince!easynet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84133 wdcbarone wrote: > Was there any mention of elves, orcs, goblins, etc or are all of these > mythical beings of Tolkien's creation? While Tolkien used his special story-telling skills to weave these creatures into the story we're familiar with, beings of these types are present in maythologies all around the world. Yours in the orth Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent -- Second-ratedness, unfailing law of: Never be the first to try anything. anon. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: origins Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:28:53 +0200 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3CB6D305.A37870B7@gmx.de> References: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84097 wdcbarone wrote: > > Was there any mention of elves, orcs, goblins, etc or are all of these > mythical beings of Tolkien's creation? AFAIK the names were there in older stories. Tolkien 'only' changed the creatures bearing the names. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Jay Random Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: origins Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:01:39 -0600 Organization: Bondwine Communications Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3CB6F6D3.2040107@bondwine.ca> References: <2ast8.9217$ia.665293@news2.west.cox.net> <3cb65d48$1@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-228-71-35.gen.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1018623700 6466 207.228.71.35 (12 Apr 2002 15:01:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:01:40 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011022 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83814 jere7my tho?rpe wrote: > In article <3cb65d48$1@iridium.webone.com.au>, > "Brett Evill" wrote: > > >>'Orc' is a word he derived himself from a slightly different >>word occurring in the Anglo-Saxon poem 'Beowulf', >> > > Incidentally, it was originally a water-demon; it's the same root > as the English word "orca," killer whale. Actually, the words are considered to be separate borrowings from Latin. I don't know whether there is any etymological connexion between `Orcus' & _orca_ (the Latin word, also meaning `whale'), but _orc_ `demon' & _orc[a]_ `killer whale' were clearly differentiated in meaning before their adoption into Anglo-Saxon. OED gives the etymologies of both words & clearly distinguishes them. So an Orc in Anglo-Saxon was not a water-demon, but a demon generally. The consensus among etymologists is that this word `orc' is a close cognate of `ogre', both deriving from the Latin name Orcus.