Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) References: <3ac4908.0204090935.71723ef4@posting.google.com> <3cb32f53.19448365@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1018449210 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:33:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:33:30 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: _2Ys8-1986-S4-587@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 7b80bac6 fea53763 90dedae8 08fa3cfa 3fe209fd Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:33:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83621 Quoth jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) in article <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net>: > As soon as you change the header, you start a new thread, and lose > the connection to the post to which you're replying. Huh? Even free text-based newsreaders have been smarter than that since at least 1994 (I don't have earlier data because I wasn't on the internet until then). If you sort articles by "thread", any newsreader that isn't a decade out of date will use the "References" line in the header to determine the structure of the thread. Any message with Message-ID's listed in its "References" line is by definition part of the same thread. Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? (And if so, what _does_ the "threading" look like? A time-ordered list of messages with the same subject line?) I'm confused. Steuard Jensen ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:06:44 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com> References: <3ac4908.0204090935.71723ef4@posting.google.com> <3cb32f53.19448365@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-173.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83649 On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:33:30 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: >Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a >newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? (And if so, >what _does_ the "threading" look like? A time-ordered list of >messages with the same subject line?) I'm confused. Free Agent has this "feature", as well as the "feature" that a message posted with the same subject as a previous header is considered a reply to the previous post (which means that recurrent posts with the same subject header like FAQ posts will all be at the very top of the long message list) -Chris ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: 11 Apr 2002 00:21:41 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3ac4908.0204090935.71723ef4@posting.google.com> <3cb32f53.19448365@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1018477301 825 10.0.3.2 (10 Apr 2002 22:21:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2002 22:21:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83793 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > Quoth jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) in article > <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net>: > > As soon as you change the header, you start a new thread, and lose > > the connection to the post to which you're replying. > > internet until then). If you sort articles by "thread", any > newsreader that isn't a decade out of date will use the "References" > line in the header to determine the structure of the thread. Any > message with Message-ID's listed in its "References" line is by > definition part of the same thread. > > Am I missing something here? That some thread-aware newsreaders regard an change of Subject: as an sign that this is an forked-off separate thread, and despite there being an References: header (which is simply regarded as indicator that the author pressed reply), regard the Subject: change as overriding threading. Perhaps the person with the problem is using such an newsreader. > Are you (or other people) using a > newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? Even thread-aware newsreades can deliberately thread-break. > (And if so, > what _does_ the "threading" look like? A time-ordered list of > messages with the same subject line?) Yes. That is what mine looks like, as I have threading switched off (deliberately, I dislike new posts being interleaved with already read ones). Alphabetically sorted on Subject: and then inside each thread sorted on time. With threading on, this reader would also Subject:-break and then sort the split off thread there where its new subject fits alphabetically. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: rgibbs@his.com (Rich Gibbs) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 03:56:18 GMT Organization: DRG Associates / Technology & Telecommunications Consulting Message-ID: <3cb50802.23646124@news.his.com> References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 NNTP-Posting-Host: max1k-58.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1018497379 max1k-58.his.com (10 Apr 2002 23:56:19 -0400) Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!vienna7.his.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83832 On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:47:51 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) in article ><3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com>: >> (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: >> >Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a >> >newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? > >> Free Agent has this "feature" > >Is there some advantage to the behavior of "ignore the References line >and define threads by Subject" that I'm just not thinking of? Why >would people choose to use a newsreader that is a decade out of date >in this respect? (Proper threading is probably the most important >feature I demand in a newsreader after "can display text" and "can >connect to local newsserver". :) ) > Actually, although it is possible to have threading done by 'Subject:' in FreeAgent, you can also use the more standard method that Steuard prefers. (Go to Options/General Preferences, choose the "Message List" tab, and uncheck "Enable Threading by Subject".) Threading by Subject seems to be the default in many PC newsreaders; I'm not sure why. /Rich -- Rich Gibbs rgibbs@his.com ###### From: "Brett Evill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:18:48 +1000 Organization: unaffiliated Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3cb4ba20@iridium.webone.com.au> References: <3ac4908.0204090935.71723ef4@posting.google.com> <3cb32f53.19448365@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridium.webone.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1018477091 15141 210.8.44.3 (10 Apr 2002 22:18:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2002 22:18:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-ctb03188.webone.com.au X-Original-Trace: 11 Apr 2002 08:18:08 +1000, dial-ctb03188.webone.com.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!iridium.webone.com.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83907 In article <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a >newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? Micro$oft Outlook Express > (And if so, >what _does_ the "threading" look like? A time-ordered list of >messages with the same subject line?) Exactly. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: "Brett Evill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:21:02 +1000 Organization: unaffiliated Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3cb4ba9f$1@iridium.webone.com.au> References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridium.webone.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1018477217 15208 210.8.44.3 (10 Apr 2002 22:20:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2002 22:20:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-ctb03188.webone.com.au X-Original-Trace: 11 Apr 2002 08:20:15 +1000, dial-ctb03188.webone.com.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.it.ip-plus.net!news.it.ip-plus.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.xtra.co.nz!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!iridium.webone.com.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83988 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Why >would people choose to use a newsreader that is a decade out of date >in this respect? Because it is what Micro$oft provides. At work, I'm not even allowed to choose another newsgroup reader. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: "Brett Evill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:57:14 +1000 Organization: unaffiliated Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3cb5096a$1@iridium.webone.com.au> References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridium.webone.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1018497389 2604 210.8.44.3 (11 Apr 2002 03:56:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2002 03:56:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-ctb03188.webone.com.au X-Original-Trace: 11 Apr 2002 13:56:26 +1000, dial-ctb03188.webone.com.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!iridium.webone.com.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83938 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >_Are_ there graphical newsreaders that work that way? Yes. I used to have access to one called 'Newswatcher'. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: marymhf@aol.com (Brianna Duncan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: 11 Apr 2002 11:06:54 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 2 Message-ID: <2e39eac1.0204111006.7acc7560@posting.google.com> References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3cb5096a$1@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.213.209.31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1018548414 16394 127.0.0.1 (11 Apr 2002 18:06:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2002 18:06:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84090 Am I the only person who doesn't have a newsreader and just reads the newsgroups through Google's website? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) References: <3cb5096a$1@iridium.webone.com.au> <2e39eac1.0204111006.7acc7560@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1018550942 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:49:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:49:02 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: yUkt8-14596-S4-4719@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 029e592e b9ce41c2 dd43bb89 b9517c94 b8a6af72 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:49:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83979 Quoth marymhf@aol.com (Brianna Duncan) in article <2e39eac1.0204111006.7acc7560@posting.google.com>: > Am I the only person who doesn't have a newsreader and just reads the > newsgroups through Google's website? For the record, you probably _have_ a newsreader, though you may not be aware of it: most web-browsers come with associated mail and news readers (sometimes both in one package), which I'd guess that a lot of users never notice. I also know that AOL has some sort of built-in Usenet access, though I've never used it myself (even during the month that I was using AOL before getting net access through my school). Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1018468071 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:47:51 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:47:51 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: HF0t8-4623-S4-1805@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 344f3644 b7983176 6b8a84fb 63980096 cf06bbf5 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:47:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83886 Quoth kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) in article <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com>: > (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: > >Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a > >newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? > Free Agent has this "feature" Is there some advantage to the behavior of "ignore the References line and define threads by Subject" that I'm just not thinking of? Why would people choose to use a newsreader that is a decade out of date in this respect? (Proper threading is probably the most important feature I demand in a newsreader after "can display text" and "can connect to local newsserver". :) ) I'm honestly curious here. Why do people use these products? (I'll make an exception for Google Groups, as it's the only service of its kind that I know of.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:23:38 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3cb49ec3.25519207@news.newsguy.com> References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-645.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83943 On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:47:51 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: >Quoth kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) in article ><3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com>: >> (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: >> >Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a >> >newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? > >> Free Agent has this "feature" > >Is there some advantage to the behavior of "ignore the References line >and define threads by Subject" that I'm just not thinking of? If the thread changes subject, I suppose they think that you might prefer to have them separated (I've never used anything but FA -- If I edit the subject line to "Free Agent (was Re: Threaded newsreaders)", will it stay as a response to this thread?) > Why >would people choose to use a newsreader that is a decade out of date >in this respect? (Proper threading is probably the most important >feature I demand in a newsreader after "can display text" and "can >connect to local newsserver". :) ) > >I'm honestly curious here. Why do people use these products? In my case it's a combination of ignorance and stubborness. Until very recently I was not aware that Free Agent was unusual in this respect. But now I've used this program for six years, and although people keep telling me to download XNews, I'm used to this program. But maybe I will some day. -Chris ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:04:44 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com> <3cb49ec3.25519207@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-509.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84092 On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:23:38 GMT, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: >On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:47:51 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu >(Steuard Jensen) posted the following: > >>Quoth kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) in article >><3cb454cf.6584323@news.newsguy.com>: >>> (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: >>> >Am I missing something here? Are you (or other people) using a >>> >newsreader that _can't_ keep track of thread structures? >> >>> Free Agent has this "feature" >> >>Is there some advantage to the behavior of "ignore the References line >>and define threads by Subject" that I'm just not thinking of? > >If the thread changes subject, I suppose they think that you might >prefer to have them separated (I've never used anything but FA -- If I >edit the subject line to "Free Agent (was Re: Threaded newsreaders)", >will it stay as a response to this thread?) > >> Why >>would people choose to use a newsreader that is a decade out of date >>in this respect? (Proper threading is probably the most important >>feature I demand in a newsreader after "can display text" and "can >>connect to local newsserver". :) ) >> >>I'm honestly curious here. Why do people use these products? > >In my case it's a combination of ignorance and stubborness. Until >very recently I was not aware that Free Agent was unusual in this >respect. But now I've used this program for six years, and although >people keep telling me to download XNews, I'm used to this program. >But maybe I will some day. > >-Chris I use the full version of Agent, and you can set it either way. All that happens if you have it set this way is that a new thread starts with a subject change. Some might like this in a group where threads tend to diverge wildly, and you want to ignore a sub thread. I prefer to keep it together in one thread, however. -- lazarus "Atheists do look for answers to existence itself. They just don't make them up." -- Teller "The less you bet, the more you lose when you win." -- Wyatt Earp "Never play pool with a man who brings his own table." -- Erik Baker ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1018491916 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:25:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:25:16 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: gu6t8-7676-S4-2898@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 81611ea9 05d4c13d 3f48ea75 1eac0aff 0abc4674 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 02:25:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83939 Quoth Neil Franklin in article <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > > Quoth jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard): > > > As soon as you change the header, you start a new thread, and lose > > > the connection to the post to which you're replying. > > Any message with Message-ID's listed in its "References" line is > > by definition part of the same thread. > > Am I missing something here? > That some thread-aware newsreaders regard an change of Subject: as > an sign that this is an forked-off separate thread, and despite > there being an References: header (which is simply regarded as > indicator that the author pressed reply), regard the Subject: change > as overriding threading. So you're saying it's set up that way to correct for peoples' mistakes? I guess that on some groups it would be useful, but mostly it seems like it just legitimizes (and even forces) poor netiquette. As far as I'm concerned, if you hit "reply", you're trying to reply. Don't most newsreaders have a separate "new message" button? > Yes. That is what mine looks like, as I have threading switched off > (deliberately, I dislike new posts being interleaved with already > read ones). Alphabetically sorted on Subject: and then inside each > thread sorted on time. I use "trn", which is a plain-text newsreader, and it's basically set up to show only unread messages by default (though it's very easy to navigate back through a thread to read what came before, and you can choose to view read messages instead of unread ones if you want to). It may just be what I'm used to, but it seems to work pretty well. _Are_ there graphical newsreaders that work that way? Steuard Jensen ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Date: 13 Apr 2002 16:06:06 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 67 Message-ID: <6u8z7rzoa9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3cb4159c.783810@news.ed.shawcable.net> <_2Ys8.5$S4.518@news.uchicago.edu> <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1018706766 538 10.0.3.2 (13 Apr 2002 14:06:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Apr 2002 14:06:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84262 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > Quoth Neil Franklin in article > <6ur8lnurd6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > > > > Any message with Message-ID's listed in its "References" line is > > > by definition part of the same thread. > > > Am I missing something here? > > > That some thread-aware newsreaders regard an change of Subject: as > > an sign that this is an forked-off separate thread, and despite > > there being an References: header (which is simply regarded as > > indicator that the author pressed reply), regard the Subject: change > > as overriding threading. > > So you're saying it's set up that way to correct for peoples' > mistakes? I would not even call it an mistake. If someone regards his own post as sufficiently off-thread-topic to want to change Subject: line, then it is sort fo like an new thread. I actually like this behaviour. One subject one block. Allows jumping an entire non-interesting (sub-)thread and still getting all of the other interesting ones. Without having to eyeball-search them. Actually I would like to see more Subject: changing, when an subthread veers off. Massive x-100 post threads with multiple themes in them are tiring (oh annother post of the other non-interesting theme). > As far as I'm concerned, if you hit "reply", you're trying to reply. > Don't most newsreaders have a separate "new message" button? All I have seen have "new", but that does not copy the existing post for quoting. I guess forking off an subthread is about half way between "new" and "reply". Perhaps newsreaders should provide an "fork" button, that quotes but does not add an References: line. Lacking that (and all I know lack it), I regard taking the Subject: change to mean fork is about the best possible compromise. > > Yes. That is what mine looks like, as I have threading switched off > > (deliberately, I dislike new posts being interleaved with already > > read ones). Alphabetically sorted on Subject: and then inside each > > thread sorted on time. > > I use "trn", which is a plain-text newsreader, and it's basically set > up to show only unread messages by default (though it's very easy to > navigate back through a thread to read what came before, and you can > choose to view read messages instead of unread ones if you want to). > It may just be what I'm used to, but it seems to work pretty well. > _Are_ there graphical newsreaders that work that way? Well my newsreads (GNUS) is text based (sort of, uses own X Window, knows about mouse select and scroll), so I will have to pass that question on to others. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Lines: 4 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 May 2002 03:11:03 GMT References: <6u8z7rzoa9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Threaded newsreaders (was [OT]Re: I love his writing, but - wtf? [s]) Message-ID: <20020509231103.28333.00007913@mb-ms.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:86620 >I guess forking off an subthread is about half way between "new" and >"reply". Wassssaaaaaahbehhhhhhhhh!