Lines: 42 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 04 Apr 2002 13:28:26 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: LotR: Ages of the Characters Message-ID: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82833 For the amusement and edification of the newsgroup's readers, I've compiled a list of the ages (where known) of the main characters in _The Lord of the Rings_ at the time of the Council of Elrond in October TA 3018. Have I left anyone out? Bilbo Baggins - 128 Frodo Baggins - 50 Samwise Gamgee - 35 [1] Peregrin Took - 28 Meriadoc Brandybuck - 36 Aragorn - 87 Gandalf - indeterminate Saruman - indeterminate Elrond - 6517 [2] Elladan - 2879 Elrohir - 2879 Arwen - 2777 [3] Galadriel - Older than the Sun and the Moon. Literally. Celeborn - Ditto. Gimli - 139 Legolas - ? Gollum - ~585 [4] Boromir - 40 Faramir - 35 Denethor - 88 Theoden - 70 Eomer - 27 Eowyn - 23 Notes: [1] Sam is listed in the Tale of Years as being 15 years younger than Frodo, but in the Family Trees as being 12 years younger. I'm going with the Tale of Years on this one. [2] In UT Elrond's twin brother Elros died at 500 in SA 442, so the two were born 58 years before the end of the First Age. [3] That's right, Arwen is 2690 years older than Aragorn. And they said it would never work. [4] Assuming he was 30 or so when he got the Ring. If you don't count the 478 years he held the Ring, Gollum was ~107. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:28:38 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1017930576 16426 192.168.46.136 (4 Apr 2002 14:29:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 14:29:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82851 In article <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com>, Johnny Pez (johnnypez9@aol.com) says... > For the amusement and edification of the newsgroup's readers, I've compiled a > list of the ages (where known) of the main characters in _The Lord of the > Rings_ at the time of the Council of Elrond in October TA 3018. Have I left > anyone out? Treebeard and Sauron are the two that jump out. Ioreth as well... -- Donald Shepherd The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they'll be when you kill them. ###### From: Shankar Kalyanaraman Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> Lines: 50 Organization: Insight Broadband User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.221.104.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@insightbb.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1017931086 12.221.104.141 (Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:38:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:38:06 GMT Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:38:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn14eed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82886 What about Tom Bombadil? Is his age mentioned anywhere? > For the amusement and edification of the newsgroup's readers, I've > compiled a list of the ages (where known) of the main characters in _The > Lord of the > Rings_ at the time of the Council of Elrond in October TA 3018. Have I > left anyone out? > > Bilbo Baggins - 128 > Frodo Baggins - 50 > Samwise Gamgee - 35 [1] > Peregrin Took - 28 > Meriadoc Brandybuck - 36 > Aragorn - 87 > Gandalf - indeterminate > Saruman - indeterminate > Elrond - 6517 [2] > Elladan - 2879 > Elrohir - 2879 > Arwen - 2777 [3] > Galadriel - Older than the Sun and the Moon. Literally. > Celeborn - Ditto. > Gimli - 139 > Legolas - ? > Gollum - ~585 [4] > Boromir - 40 > Faramir - 35 > Denethor - 88 > Theoden - 70 > Eomer - 27 > Eowyn - 23 > > Notes: > [1] Sam is listed in the Tale of Years as being 15 years younger than > [Frodo, > but in the Family Trees as being 12 years younger. I'm going with the > Tale of Years on this one. > > [2] In UT Elrond's twin brother Elros died at 500 in SA 442, so the two > [were > born 58 years before the end of the First Age. > > [3] That's right, Arwen is 2690 years older than Aragorn. And they said > [it > would never work. > > [4] Assuming he was 30 or so when he got the Ring. If you don't count the > [478 > years he held the Ring, Gollum was ~107. ###### From: John Tierney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:06:38 +0100 Organization: Sage Publications Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> Reply-To: john.tierney@sagepub.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.224.155.250 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1017932795 29034372 195.224.155.250 (16 [132926]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!deine.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!195.224.155.250!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82856 In article <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com>, Johnny Pez, johnnypez9@aol.com graciously shared with us ... > For the amusement and edification of the newsgroup's readers, I've compiled a > list of the ages (where known) of the main characters in _The Lord of the > Rings_ at the time of the Council of Elrond in October TA 3018. Have I left > anyone out? > Cirdan? -- The Senior Wrangler ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:40:55 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.09.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 4 Apr 2002 16:43:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82887 On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:28:38 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: >In article <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com>, Johnny Pez >(johnnypez9@aol.com) says... >> For the amusement and edification of the newsgroup's readers, I've compiled a >> list of the ages (where known) of the main characters in _The Lord of the >> Rings_ at the time of the Council of Elrond in October TA 3018. Have I left >> anyone out? > >Treebeard and Sauron are the two that jump out. Ioreth as well... Treebeard: older than Celeborn and Galadriel; "eldest living thing" and all that. (BTW - Galadriel's birthdate should be somewhere in the Grey Annals, so one could compute her age in (solar) years ...) Sauron: like Saruman and Gandalf, creation of Iluvatar before Arda existed. Shelob: First Age Gloin: birthyear is in Appendix A Fatty Bolger: birthyear is in Appendix C Wormtongue: 50? Bombadil: indeterminate Cirdan: very, very old, pre-Crossing; close to if not part of first generation of Elves Bill the Pony: 10? ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 16:52:22 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3cac8343.9109890@news.newsguy.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-350.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82832 On 04 Apr 2002 13:28:26 GMT, johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) posted the following: >Galadriel - Older than the Sun and the Moon. Literally. Looking at the information in Morgoth's Ring we can attempt to establish a minimum age for her. The first time she is mentioned is in annal 1280, but she is already alive at this time. 1500 (valian year measurement) was the creation of the moon. So we add 2732 (latest version of "Tale of Years" puts Elrond's birth in year 532) to Elrond's age to come up with 9249 years. I have a feeling more knowledgable Tolkien people could come up with a more exact answer, but this is an approximate. Cirdan's first mention is in 1149, so he would be at least 1300 years older than that, so he is over 10,000. -Chris ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 18:12:53 +0100 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-36.articuno.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1017940215 29011 217.135.26.36 (4 Apr 2002 17:10:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 17:10:15 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82816 Jon Meltzer wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:28:38 +1000, Donald Shepherd > wrote: > > >In article <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com>, Johnny Pez > >(johnnypez9@aol.com) says... > >> For the amusement and edification of the newsgroup's readers, I've compiled a > >> list of the ages (where known) of the main characters in _The Lord of the > >> Rings_ at the time of the Council of Elrond in October TA 3018. Have I left > >> anyone out? > > > >Treebeard and Sauron are the two that jump out. Ioreth as well... > > Treebeard: older than Celeborn and Galadriel; "eldest living thing" > and all that. (BTW - Galadriel's birthdate should be somewhere in the > Grey Annals, so one could compute her age in (solar) years ...) Galadriel was born in Valian Year (of the Trees) 1362 Thats's 138 VY until the start of the First Age of the Sun = c1322 Sun Years. 1322+590+3441+3018 = 8,371 > Cirdan: very, very old, pre-Crossing; close to if not part of first > generation of Elves Cirdan's life started at the earliest VY 1050, c. 4312 YS before the rising of the Sun (Awakening of the 1st Generation of Elves), at the latest c.VY 1110, c 3737 YS before the rising of the Sun (It is noted that he started building ships during the sojourn of the Elves at the Sea of Rhun, partway through the Great Journey. The Elves reached Anduin in VY 1115, so I feel that VY 1110 is the latest reasonable date for him to be born, grow to adulthood, build some ships, and then get to Anduin for VY 1115) So Cirdans age in TA3018 is 10,786 - 11,361. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 16:44:31 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3cac82af.8962234@news.newsguy.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-890.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!lex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82902 On 04 Apr 2002 13:28:26 GMT, johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) posted the following: >Gollum - ~585 [4] >[4] Assuming he was 30 or so when he got the Ring. If you don't count the 478 >years he held the Ring, Gollum was ~107. It's interesting to look at the development of the timeline in Peoples of Middle-Earth and see that originally, Gollum was around 2000 years old at the time of the council, which was reduced to 1000 in the next version of the timeline. -Chris ###### From: Josep Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: 4 Apr 2002 21:02:09 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213-99-150-180.uc.nombres.ttd.es User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!caladan.arrakis.es!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!nsnmpen1-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82911 Andy Cooke wrote in > So Cirdans age in TA3018 is 10,786 - 11,361. > Now that is a *lot* of time to grow a beard :-) Pep ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 18:47:31 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.0e.5e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 4 Apr 2002 23:50:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83011 On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 18:12:53 +0100, Andy Cooke >Cirdan's life started at the earliest VY 1050, c. 4312 YS before >the rising of the Sun (Awakening of the 1st Generation of Elves), >at the latest c.VY 1110, c 3737 YS before the rising of the Sun >(It is noted that he started building ships during the sojourn of >the Elves at the Sea of Rhun, partway through the Great Journey. >The Elves reached Anduin in VY 1115, so I feel that VY 1110 is >the latest reasonable date for him to be born, grow to adulthood, >build some ships, and then get to Anduin for VY 1115) > >So Cirdans age in TA3018 is 10,786 - 11,361. But Treebeard is older ("eldest of all living things"). Is there any indication in the Silmarillion or HoME about when the Ents became sentient? ###### From: Jay Random Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:02:04 -0700 Organization: Bondwine Communications Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3CACE97C.7080205@bondwine.ca> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-228-71-35.gen.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1017964926 27619 207.228.71.35 (5 Apr 2002 00:02:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:02:06 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011022 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82930 Jon Meltzer wrote: > On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 18:12:53 +0100, Andy Cooke > >>Cirdan's life started at the earliest VY 1050, c. 4312 YS before >>the rising of the Sun (Awakening of the 1st Generation of Elves), >>at the latest c.VY 1110, c 3737 YS before the rising of the Sun >>(It is noted that he started building ships during the sojourn of >>the Elves at the Sea of Rhun, partway through the Great Journey. >>The Elves reached Anduin in VY 1115, so I feel that VY 1110 is >>the latest reasonable date for him to be born, grow to adulthood, >>build some ships, and then get to Anduin for VY 1115) >> >>So Cirdans age in TA3018 is 10,786 - 11,361. >> > > But Treebeard is older ("eldest of all living things"). > > Is there any indication in the Silmarillion or HoME about when the > Ents became sentient? Keep in mind that I haven't read vols. 10-12 of HoME with close attention; there is probably something there. Other than that, the only indication I know of is in _The Silmarillion_, in the chapter `Of Aulė And Yavanna'. The Ents seem to have appeared shortly after Aulė made the Fathers of the Dwarves, but definitely before their reawakening & the coming of the Quendi. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:03:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1017972239 12.79.23.90 (Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:03:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:03:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.54!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82943 "Andy Cooke" wrote in message news:3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com... > Galadriel was born in Valian Year (of the Trees) 1362 > Thats's 138 VY until the start of the First Age of the Sun = > c1322 Sun Years. > 1322+590+3441+3018 = 8,371 > So Cirdans age in TA3018 is 10,786 - 11,361. Alternatively, using Tolkien's last figure of 1 VY = 144 solar years; Galadriel - 26,921 Cirdan - 169,193 ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:00:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1017975628 12.79.28.81 (Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:00:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:00:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn14eed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.55!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82946 "Jon Meltzer" wrote in message news:j7ppaugpo1hbmfavgi2k68njjj6ea42dua@4ax.com... In comparison to Cirdan; > But Treebeard is older ("eldest of all living things"). Which helps approximate Treebeard's age. See below; > Is there any indication in the Silmarillion or HoME about when the > Ents became sentient? "When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared." Silm, Of Aule and Yavanna So, this would put the arrival of the 'Entish spirits' after the Awakening of the Elves... which is consistent with Treebeard's comments about the Elves having begun the 'Awakening' of the Ents. If the indications of Treebeard being the 'eldest living thing' are accurate for all members of sentient races (it was not entirely accurate as Treebeard indicated there were trees older than him and Bombadil, Gandalf, and various others were also older) then that would also indicate that Cirdan was not one of the 'first elves'... and Treebeard's 'ensouling' would have happened sometime between VY 1050 when the Elves awoke and VY 1115 when they had passed the Sea of Helkar (at which the earliest reference to Cirdan is made). ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 05:16:58 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-610.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!199.106.71.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82955 On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:03:59 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" posted the following: >"Andy Cooke" wrote in message >news:3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com... > >> Galadriel was born in Valian Year (of the Trees) 1362 >> Thats's 138 VY until the start of the First Age of the Sun = >> c1322 Sun Years. >> 1322+590+3441+3018 = 8,371 > >> So Cirdans age in TA3018 is 10,786 - 11,361. > >Alternatively, using Tolkien's last figure of 1 VY = 144 solar years; > >Galadriel - 26,921 >Cirdan - 169,193 How do you arrive at such a high figure for Cirdan? The Elves awoke in VY 1050, and even if you use the 144 years you only get 65,400 that Elves could have been alive in the first age. Is there an extra 1 at the beginning? -Chris ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Apr 2002 11:12:11 GMT References: <3cac82af.8962234@news.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Message-ID: <20020405061211.28545.00001998@mb-mt.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82956 Chris Kern writes: >It's interesting to look at the development of the timeline in Peoples >of Middle-Earth and see that originally, Gollum was around 2000 years >old at the time of the council, which was reduced to 1000 in the next >version of the timeline. Interesting in light of Gandalf's use of the phrase "akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors" in "The Shadow of the Past". At first reading, this makes it sound as though Gollum's people lived way before the hobbits moved into Eriador, but it can also be interpreted as meaning that the ancestors of Gollum's people branched off from the Stoors back then, but lived more recently. I think the idea we're supposed to get from Appendix B is that the Stoors (including Gollum's ancestors) moved west over the Misty Mountains around TA 1150. About 200 years later all the Stoors left the Angle; some (including Gollum's ancestors) moved back east over the Misty Mountains, while the rest moved south to Dunland, and from there to the Shire in the 17th century. -- Johnny Pez A darker world April 2002 ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: 5 Apr 2002 05:49:10 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0204050549.7d520e50@posting.google.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> <3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1018014550 8372 127.0.0.1 (5 Apr 2002 13:49:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2002 13:49:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82993 kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com>... > How do you arrive at such a high figure for Cirdan? The Elves awoke > in VY 1050, and even if you use the 144 years you only get 65,400 that > Elves could have been alive in the first age. Is there an extra 1 at > the beginning? Hrmmmm... you're right. It seemed high and I'd used a figure of ~60,000 once before, but I didn't stop to check the math. Going back over it I see the error, I took the 10,786 figure Andy had derived as pre-Sun when it actually included the 1st, 2nd & 3rd ages. Working back it looks like Andy was using 390 VY from 1110 to First Age + 7049 Solar Years from First Age to Council of Elrond. Taking these as starting points (though the VY figure could vary +/- 50 or so) and the 1 VY = 144 Solar years the actual figure for Cirdan should have been 64,505. Given the fluctuating duration of a Valian Year and the whole 'slower rate of change' issue it might make more sense to denote these pre-Sunrise ages in something like the form; 390-7049. ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:36:21 +0100 Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3CADD285.2F0E57F4@hotmail.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> <3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com> <1178b6d1.0204050549.7d520e50@posting.google.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1007.duckdive.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1018024422 7453 62.25.155.239 (5 Apr 2002 16:33:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2002 16:33:42 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:82932 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com>... > > > How do you arrive at such a high figure for Cirdan? The Elves awoke > > in VY 1050, and even if you use the 144 years you only get 65,400 that > > Elves could have been alive in the first age. Is there an extra 1 at > > the beginning? > > Hrmmmm... you're right. It seemed high and I'd used a figure of > ~60,000 once before, but I didn't stop to check the math. Going back > over it I see the error, I took the 10,786 figure Andy had derived as > pre-Sun when it actually included the 1st, 2nd & 3rd ages. > > Working back it looks like Andy was using 390 VY from 1110 to First > Age + 7049 Solar Years from First Age to Council of Elrond. Taking > these as starting points (though the VY figure could vary +/- 50 or > so) and the 1 VY = 144 Solar years the actual figure for Cirdan should > have been 64,505. > > Given the fluctuating duration of a Valian Year and the whole 'slower > rate of change' issue it might make more sense to denote these > pre-Sunrise ages in something like the form; 390-7049. Okay, that's a fair cop - I may have left it a bit fuzzy in an attempt at simplicity. I did leave in the "+590+3441+3018" bit in the Galadriel's age portion as a "Show working" to aid in that, however. As to the last point - I see your point, but as the OP had put all ages in Solar Years, I elected to leave them in the simpler form. As to the 144 SY=1 VY issue - agreed, it was Tolkien's last figure, but the 9.582:1 figure seemed to have more history and more thought put into it. The 144:1 figure came up late in his life with few references, whereas the 9.582 figure (and its 10:1 and 9.58:1 antecedents) weas used during the time when he composed and revised the Annals in question. It may seem very artificial and arbitrary to pick and choose like this, but (as with the entire _Myths Transformed_ issue) a coherent canon is impossible, and we _have_ to pick and choose. With that said, perhaps I should have included a throwaway line to the effect that there was an alternative figure, and cited its origins. But I still prefer the 9.582:1 figure. :-) -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Alatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:43:25 +0100 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-550.leopard.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1018179683 15467 217.135.146.38 (7 Apr 2002 11:41:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Apr 2002 11:41:23 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83199 "Shankar Kalyanaraman" wrote: > What about Tom Bombadil? Is his age mentioned anywhere? Please do not qoute over 40 lines of text just to add a one line reply. Please do not top post FAQ: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/ Thank you for keeping the newsgroup tidy. -- Alatar ###### From: Alex Regh Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:12:18 +0200 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-083.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:83778 Hi! On 04 Apr 2002 13:28:26 GMT, Johnny Pez wrote: >[2] In UT Elrond's twin brother Elros died at 500 in SA 442, so the two were >born 58 years before the end of the First Age. Is it certain that Elrond and Elros are _twins_? There seem to be conflicting information about that. Myself, I haven't got through HoME yet, so can't check. Greetings from Cologne Alex -- If you don't go over the top, you can't see what's on the other side. --- Jim Steinman --- Visit my fanfic-homepage at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/2941/ ###### From: arebello64@hotmail.com (AR) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: 11 Apr 2002 08:09:30 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 36 Message-ID: <2a4798d.0204110709.279ef9bb@posting.google.com> References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CAC8995.B1505F82@hotmail.com> <3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com> <1178b6d1.0204050549.7d520e50@posting.google.com> <3CADD285.2F0E57F4@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.63.224.50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1018537770 9671 127.0.0.1 (11 Apr 2002 15:09:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2002 15:09:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84074 Andy Cooke wrote in message news:<3CADD285.2F0E57F4@hotmail.com>... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > > > kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3cad3250.53929751@news.newsguy.com>... > > > > > > Given the fluctuating duration of a Valian Year and the whole 'slower > > rate of change' issue it might make more sense to denote these > > pre-Sunrise ages in something like the form; 390-7049. > > > As to the 144 SY=1 VY issue - agreed, it was Tolkien's last > figure, but the 9.582:1 figure seemed to have more history and > more thought put into it. The 144:1 figure came up late in his > life with few references, whereas the 9.582 figure (and its 10:1 > and 9.58:1 antecedents) weas used during the time when he > composed and revised the Annals in question. > > > But I still prefer the 9.582:1 figure. :-) > While I think that in general, Tolkiens later writings (at least those that CRT includes in the last volumes of HoME) do not mesh well with what we see in LoTR and the Silmarillion, in the case of the 144:1 VY to SY ratio I think this is more consistant with the time scale of pre-solar Arda than the 9.582:1 ratio that he put forth earlier. After all, if we use 9.582:1, we only have 3736 SY from the awakening of the Elves to the rising of the sun. The Silmarillion describes the caliquendi as living in Aman for a very long time during the nootide of Valinor before the unchaining of Melkor. If we use the 144:1 ratio we get the Elves awakening 56,160 SY before the rising of the Sun, this seems much more in line with the vast amount of time that the Elves supposedly walked the earth before the rising of the sun. -AR ##### From: Alex Regh Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:21:18 +0200 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CB5493E.844B8D5C@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-401.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!199.106.71.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84109 Hello! On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 10:28:46 +0200, Kristian Damm Jensen wrote: >> Is it certain that Elrond and Elros are _twins_? There seem to be conflicting >> information about that. > >Oh, from were do you have this conflicting information. That is an excellent question - I remember reading that it was an open question whether they were twins, and that no clear date of birth is available. Unfortunatly, I don't remember where ... Appendix A only states that they were brothers, but does not mention "twins"; one might assume that if they were twins it would be explicitly mentioned. After all, twins are rare, and Elrond's sons are mentionend as being twins several times. There is a thread on Google which seems to come to no definite conclusion, either: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en|lang_de&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&th=f37d8bd9c7e0d1a0&rnum=3 Greetings from Cologne Alex -- If you don't go over the top, you can't see what's on the other side. --- Jim Steinman --- Visit my fanfic-homepage at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/2941/ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020404082826.21639.00001751@mb-fa.aol.com> <3CB5493E.844B8D5C@MOVEcgey.com> Subject: Re: LotR: Ages of the Characters Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:53:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1018720439 12.79.56.205 (Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:53:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:53:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn14eed!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.55!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:84315 "Alex Regh" wrote in message news:oqdbbu4c80q17u58odref1k9v54nrl8qca@4ax.com... > That is an excellent question - I remember reading that it was an > open question whether they were twins, and that no clear date of > birth is available. Unfortunately, I don't remember where ... Wherever, there is at least one passage contradicting both counts; "The Peringuil, the Half-elven, were born of Elwing wife of Earendel, while Earendel was at sea, the twin brethren Elrond and Elros." LROW, The Later Annals of Beleriand - Annal 325 commentary