From: address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 11 Mar 2002 01:25:51 GMT Organization: Computer Science, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 533 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: mccarthy.csd.uwo.ca X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 1015809951 23913 129.100.11.249 (11 Mar 2002 01:25:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2002 01:25:51 GMT Originator: andrews@csd.uwo.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!csd.uwo.ca!andrews Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81122 Hi... A few weeks ago, I decided to undertake a rethinking and rewriting of an old essay of mine. Recently on the newsgroup, issues have come up which are relevant to the essay, so I decided to finally polish it up and post it here. Please let me know what you think. cheers --Jamie. Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin ======================================================= In J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth stories, two of the classes of beings around which much of the action is focused are Elves and Men. These beings are distinguished by a number of features, the two most prominent of which are free will and mortality. Men are explicitly said to have free will; the implication is that Elves do not have free will. Elves are immortal, in the sense of never growing old, though they can be killed by such means as swords, poison, and trauma; however, Men grow old and die of natural causes. Because they are bittersweet, the two qualities of free will and mortality are said in Tolkien's writings to be the "strange gifts" of Men. This essay attempts to illuminate the role of these qualities in Middle-earth by exploring how they are described and linked in Tolkien's writings, primarily in _The Silmarillion_, and specifically in the stories of the two heroic Men, Tuor and Turin. This essay is a re-thinking and re-presentation of one written for Elliott Gose's "Fantasy and Science Fiction Literature" class, UBC English department, in about 1984. Notes and Caveats ----------------- (1) Throughout this essay, I will use the terms "men", "Men", and "Man" to refer to all humans. I do this because those are the terms usually used by Tolkien, and because most of the humans being discussed are male. (2) The only books that I have containing material about the First Age of Middle-earth are the following. - _The Lord of the Rings_, noted as [LotR] in references. Since there are so many editions of [LotR], I will describe page references by their chapter and location in that chapter. - _The Silmarillion_ [S]. Page references will be to the 1977 Unwin hardback edition. - _Unfinished Tales_ [UT]. Page references will be to the 1980 Unwin hardback edition. - _The Book of Lost Tales_, part II, which I will not need to refer to in this essay. My apologies if the opinions which I am now inflicting upon you are consistent only with a misreading of these works, and can be refuted in other books in the _History of Middle- Earth_ series. I would appreciate hearing any such refutations. (3) For simplicity, I will use the singular name "Tolkien" to refer to the writings that are mentioned in (2) above. I am aware that some of the text in these books might owe its exact phrasing to J.R.R.'s son Christopher Tolkien. (4) Many of the words and names I use here have accents on them in the printed version of Tolkien's writings. Because of limitations of some of the terminals and editors that I work on, I will omit these accents. The Christian Conception of Free Will ------------------------------------- To start with, it is useful to review the Christian conception of free will, since Tolkien was a devout Catholic and some of his thinking on the subject may have been influenced by his beliefs. I am not a theologian, so please forgive any simplification contained in this section. In Christian theology, God is omnipotent but men are said to have free will. This presents a seeming paradox: God can direct all things, but men can choose for themselves how to act. If men can go against the will of God, then God is not omnipotent after all; but if God is always directing how men act, then men do not have free will. This paradox has been resolved in different ways over the years by different Christian sects. Some Scottish Calvinists, for example (as lampooned in James Hogg's novel _The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner_), are said to have believed that once they have been identified as "justified" (predestined to be written in the Book of Life), no decision of theirs could be wrong. One could say that these Calvinists believed in an extreme form of subjection of the free will of men to the will of God, in the sense that a justified individual is incapable of making any decision which goes against the will of God. Traditional Catholic theology, on the other hand, has insisted that Man must have true free will; otherwise, the argument runs, there is no point in making a moral judgement about the decisions of individual men. Theologians such as Thomas Aquinas, in the _Summa Theologiae_, resolved the paradox by saying that while immediate decisions can be made by individual men, the ultimate motivation for the decisions comes from God. Essentially, God creates the world, and creates Man to have free will because it serves his (ineffable) higher purpose. Men are free to choose, but God knows about all the choices that they will make. God is also capable of influencing Men, but this is a separate matter. Aquinas likens the situation to the movement of a stone. A person can pick up a stone, in which case it moves because of external force. But when the person releases the stone, it moves independently (i.e., it falls) because of its inherent nature. Similarly, God can influence a man, in which case he acts not due to free will. But when God chooses to stop influencing a man, the man acts independently due to his inherent nature. Essentially, this explanation says that men are not subject to the will of God in the sense of God being always a separate, external power forcing them to act as they otherwise would not. Rather, a man's free will is part of God's will; we might say that the will of each individual man is a tiny fragment of the will of God. When individual men make decisions which (for instance) conflict with each other or go against the Ten Commandments, these are in fact fragments of God's will battling each other. Why God has set up the world in this way is mysterious to us, but in Christian theology, the reason will be revealed after the Last Judgement. The Ainulindale and Free Will ----------------------------- Now to Tolkien's writings. The primary Middle-earth creation story is the "Ainulindale" (in the chapter of the same name in _The Silmarillion_), or Music of the Holy Ones. This story must be accounted for in any analysis of the concept of free will in Tolkien's writings. Here is a brief summary of the Ainulindale. In the beginning, Eru Iluvatar (the "One" and "Father of All", Middle-earth's equivalent of God) creates the Ainur (the "Holy Ones"). The Ainur consist of the Valar (the (Great) "Powers") and the Maiar (no translation of this name is given, but these are effectively the Lesser Powers). Eru teaches the Ainur music, and they engage in a great and harmonious song, the Ainulindale ("Music of the Ainur"). One of the Valar, Melkor, decides to sing his own theme, in conflict with the original theme. This causes confusion among the Ainur. However, Eru opposes Melkor's theme with a second theme, and then for the same purpose introduces a third theme not known to the Ainur. The song ends on a great conclusive note. Eru then creates Arda, the World, which contains Middle-earth, and explains to the Ainur that its form and history yet to come are the physical embodiment of the music that they have just experienced and helped create. Melkor and many of the other Valar and Maiar go to inhabit Arda. Melkor plays out his role in the music by becoming Morgoth, the terrible "Black Foe" of all good beings, while the other Valar and Maiar play a role in Middle-earth comparable to that of the Greek or Norse gods. The Third Theme of the Ainulindale is said to correspond in Middle-earth to Elves and Men, who are called the Children of Iluvatar. However, it is explicitly said that nothing that either Melkor or the Children of Iluvatar can do can actually conflict with the will of Iluvatar himself; rather, all will eventually redound to the greater glory of Iluvatar; as he says, "[N]o theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite" [S 17]. Moreover, the Ainur, although they have heard the entire Ainulindale, do not understand all of it, but only fragments, and cannot tell exactly how the music will be embodied in Arda: "[S]ome things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together" [S 18]. By the end of the "Ainulindale" chapter, the Ainur are dwelling within Arda, the Children of Iluvatar are about to emerge, and the stage is set for the great cycle of stories that takes us through _The Silmarillion_ and indeed through to _The Lord of the Rings_. It is in the later chapter "Of the Beginning of Days" in _The Silmarillion_ that the subject of the "strange gifts" of Men [S 41] is raised. It is mentioned that Men have free will, and it is explicitly said that they in fact have the power to make decisions that go beyond the Ainulindale. Therefore [Eru] willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else... [S 41] Given that nothing of the free will of Men can conflict with the will of Eru, but that the free will of Men can explicitly go outside the Ainulindale, we seem to have a contradiction. On closer examination, however, the contradiction disappears. The Ainulindale is only the Music of the Ainur, and does not constitute the whole mind of Eru. The implication is that the free will of Men is not entirely subject to the will of the Ainur, but rather is at least partially outside it. In the terms used in the last section, the will of an individual Man is a fragment of the will of Eru, but not (exclusively) a fragment of the Ainulindale. The Ainur can influence Men (for instance, Gandalf is a Maia and influences Men throughout _The Lord of the Rings_), and may in part be able to predict their actions; and Tolkien does not deny the possibility that parts of the will of an individual Man can be fragments of the will of one or more Ainur. However, at least part of the will of any normal Man can be entirely independent of the Ainur. The Free Will of Elves ---------------------- Given this basis for the free will of Men, what can we say about the free will of Elves? Elves do act seemingly wilfully, and indeed much of the story of _The Silmarillion_ centres around their wilful acts. For instance, Feanor and the other Noldor decide to go against the will of the (good) Valar by coming to Middle-earth to pursue Morgoth. Turgon refuses to leave Gondolin even in the face of a clear warning coming directly from Ulmo, the Vala most benevolent to the Noldor. In the well-known "temptation of Galadriel" episode of the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel" [LotR], Galadriel makes a decision not to take the One Ring, and refers to the choice as a "test", implying that she could have chosen the other way. How are we to explain this wilfulness, if Men have free will and Elves do not? The key seems to be in the Ainulindale. The free will of Men is specifically said to be capable of doing things outside the Ainulindale. The implication is that whatever seeming free will Elves have cannot go outside the Ainulindale, and thus can potentially be known to the Ainur. Indeed, insofar as the Ainur sang much of the Ainulindale following the direction of Iluvatar, one could say that the Ainur themselves created aspects of the will of the Elves; that they to some extent control the actions of the Elves. If any one Ainu were able to understand the entire Ainulindale, then that Ainu would be able to predict all the actions of the Elves. It is only because the Ainur do not completely understand the Ainulindale that they may be unable to predict what any individual Elf is going to do. Given this dynamic, we can explain the rebellious acts of the Elves as follows. Part of the will of a given Elf may be part of the song of Melkor/Morgoth or the Maiar (such as Sauron) who attend him, who are in conflict with the good Valar. Insofar as Feanor and the other Noldor choose to rebel against the good Valar, their decision is part of the song of Morgoth. Turgon, though strongly persuaded by Ulmo, finally decides to stay in Gondolin, a decision influenced by his greed and pride, qualities ultimately issuing from Morgoth's song. Galadriel's decision to reject the Ring is essentially a triumph of the parts of her will that are parts of the song of the good Valar, over those that are parts of the song of Morgoth, Sauron et al. The conflicts amongst the Valar and Maiar, and between the Noldor and the Valar, may be explained by the fact that the Valar are ignorant of each other's wills or minds, and do not understand the entire Ainulindale, although Eru is aware of and understands all. It may be, for example, that if all the Ainur were to get together to discuss Galadriel's decision in detail, they might be able to determine what she is going to do; but the rift between Morgoth and the other Ainur in the First Age, and the ongoing rift between Sauron and the other Ainur, make such a discussion impossible. Thus the Valar, such as Elbereth, do not individually know what Galadriel is going to do, justifying Galadriel's description of her choice as a "test". In contrast, because the free will of Men can go beyond the Ainulindale, it follows that the Ainur cannot completely predict or control Men's actions. It is not clear from the text whether every Man will necessarily make decisions that go outside the Ainulindale. It is also not clear whether the Ainur can predict at least some actions of some individual Man, although the fact that some Ainur understand some of the Ainulindale, including the Third Theme, would suggest that they can. However, it is clear that if one or more Ainur -- say, one individual Vala -- predicts or controls the will of an individual Man, then that act of prediction or control is as antithetical as possible to the nature of Men and their gifts. In such a situation, not only does the will of the Man not fall outside the Ainulindale, and not only is it understood by the Ainur, but in some sense it is part of the song of an individual Vala, and thus controlled by that Vala. The Story of Tuor ----------------- So far we have been mostly talking about free will. But free will is linked explicitly to mortality as the two "strange gifts" of Eru to Men: It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. [S 42] To see this linkage in action, we turn to the stories of two Men, Tuor and his cousin Turin. The story of Tuor is presented later than that of Turin in _The Silmarillion_, but for our purposes it is more useful to discuss Tuor's story first. Although there are two instances of Elves being granted mortality (Luthien and Arwen), there is only one instance of a Man being granted immortality: Tuor. This latter reversal seems a more strange and theologically troubling one, since the Men of Middle-earth are supposed to correspond to us mortal men of earth, and as far as we know, no normal man of our world has ever been granted immortality. Why did Tolkien choose for this to happen in Middle-earth? Let me summarize the story of Tuor, from [S] and [UT]. Tuor is born into slavery and escapes to the sea-coast, with some fortuitous help. Once he is at the sea-coast, Ulmo the Vala rises from the sea before him. Ulmo commands Tuor to dress in the armour resting in a nearby castle and to go to the hidden city of Gondolin to deliver a message to its king, Turgon. The message warns Turgon to leave Gondolin and escape to the mouth of the river Sirion, before the defeat of Gondolin that Ulmo foresees. Tuor goes to Gondolin, delivers his message to Turgon, and stays there, marrying Turgon's daughter Idril. Turgon refuses to leave, and Gondolin is overthrown, but Tuor and Idril escape with some of the people of Gondolin. They settle in the place appointed by Ulmo. Later Tuor and Idril set sail for the Undying Lands, the natural home of the Elves. To be totally precise, at this point the most explicit statement that is made about Tuor's fate is the following. In after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men. [S 245] This implies (if those who "sing" it are correct) that he has become immortal and shares in the fate of Elves rather than the separate fate of Men after death. No categorical statement is made, but the fact that Tolkien at least thought it worthwhile to make the suggestion is significant by itself. We will go on in this discussion as if Tuor's conversion actually did happen. Thus, at the end of the story, one of Tuor's "gifts" has been taken away from him: his mortality. But it is clear that the other "gift" has also been taken away from him: his free will, in the sense of a will separate from the Ainulindale. From the time that Tuor departs from his homeland, he is drawn by Ulmo toward the sea. When Tuor meets Ulmo, he asks him, "What then is my goal, Lord?" [UT pg. 28]. Ulmo gives Tuor a cloak, in this way extending his protection to Tuor; as Ulmo puts it to Tuor, "Thus thou shalt walk under my shadow". He asks Tuor "Wilt thou take up my errand?" and Tuor obediantly says "I will, Lord". Ulmo announces that he "will set words in [Tuor's] mouth to say unto Turgon", and gives him explicit commands about what to do to get to Turgon [UT pg. 29]. Tuor, rather than rebelling against Ulmo, accepts his commands. On at least two later occasions, Tuor speaks words without voluntarily willing it. He hails his companion-to-be Voronwe by name without having known the name before [UT pg. 31], and when he speaks words at the last gate to Gondolin, "it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth." [UT pg. 50] Although the _Unfinished Tales_ narrative breaks off before Tuor reaches Turgon, the implication of the earlier text is that something similar happens when Tuor speaks the words "set in his mouth" by Ulmo. To be crude, Tuor has turned into virtually a marionnette of Ulmo. The pattern continues through the remainder of Tuor's life, as only he and the few Elvish exiles of Gondolin actually act on Ulmo's command to leave Gondolin and go to the mouth of the Sirion. There, Ulmo protects the exiles until the War of Wrath which ends Morgoth's domination of Middle-earth. Since Tuor has given a large part of his gift of free will over to Ulmo for a large part of his life, it is appropriate that he also give over his other "gift", that of his mortality. It is clear that Eru must have a hand in Tuor's conversion, but nothing is explicitly said about this. Similarly, nothing is explicitly said about Ulmo's reasons for wanting to influence Tuor in this way. He does say that he is "diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper" [UT 29]. Apparently, because of the wilfulness of the Noldor whom he loves, Ulmo decides that the only way for him to get the Gondolindrim to depart is to locate a virtuous Man from a virtuous family, deprive him of his free will, and send him instead as a messenger. Eru presumably approves of this plan, but one may speculate that he insists that the linkage between free will and mortality be maintained. In some sense, the fragment of the free will of Tuor that was exclusively part of Eru's will is "given to" the Valar, specifically Ulmo, and Tuor's future is also "given to" them. It is interesting to note that the gifts are linked in another, more physical way: the immortal Elves naturally dwell in Valinor with the Valar, of whose song they are a part, while the mortal Men after death dwell in some separate place. Tuor, being an Elf at the end of his story, sails off to dwell like them with the Valar in Valinor. The Story of Turin ------------------ Tolkien loved presenting contrasts, and the story of Turin can be seen in many ways as a contrast to Tuor's. Turin, Tuor's cousin, is the son of Hurin. Hurin has been captured by Morgoth, who hates Hurin because he has defied and mocked Morgoth. In order to torment Hurin, Morgoth keeps him alive and vows to destroy his family while he watches. Rather than kill Hurin's son Turin, Morgoth decides to use him for evil ends. Turin is fostered in the court of Thingol, King of the Grey-Elves, but leaves the court due to a misunderstanding. Through a sequence of tragic events orchestrated by Morgoth, via his armies and his dragon servant Glaurung, Turin accidentally kills his best friend, inadvertantly causes the destruction of the hidden city of Nargothrond, unwittingly marries his sister, and kills an innocent man in wrath. Finally, he realizes all that has happened and the evil that he has done, and he kills himself. The evil that Turin does is in part caused by the general influence of Morgoth, in the sense that all the evil that all men do in _The Silmarillion_ is caused by that influence. Tolkien writes [S 141] that the agents of Morgoth, or perhaps Morgoth himself, contacted Men very early and planted the seeds of evil behaviour in them which persisted forever after. However, the influence of Morgoth on Turin is somewhat more direct. It is not stated that Morgoth influences Turin's actions by direct supernatural manipulation of his will; rather Morgoth sets up situations in which Turin is likely to do Morgoth's will because of his natural human frailties. For instance, it is because of Morgoth's general antipathy to Turin that he is captured by Orcs and beaten senseless, and it is a result of this that when he awakes he is fearful and mistakenly kills Beleg, his best friend. Morgoth is constantly searching for Turin in order to undo any good works that he does, such as defending Nargothrond; and it is this that causes the destruction of Nargothrond rather than anything that Turin does directly. The spells of the powerful dragon Glaurung also influence Turin to act in ways consistent with Morgoth's will. At the destruction of Nargothrond, Glaurung enchants Turin and prevents him from fighting Morgoth's forces or saving the Elf that loves him, Finduilas. Glaurung's enchantment of Turin's sister Nienor also prevents him from realizing that he has committed incest, and it is the lifting of Glaurung's enchantments which cause Turin to realize all that has happened. Notwithstanding the fact that Morgoth's influence is indirect, however, Turin and others in the story speak often of the "fate" or "doom" that Morgoth wills for him, or the "curse" that Morgoth has laid upon him, as if Morgoth has the power to directly determine what happens to him. Thus, Turin, like Tuor, is influenced by a Vala and to a certain extent acts out the Vala's will. However, the situation is different than in the story of Tuor, because the Vala who influences Turin is the evil Vala, Morgoth, and because Turin resists his influence. The main evidence of Turin's powerful resistance to Morgoth's will is that Turin manages to do great damage to Morgoth and his forces through the free will that he maintains. For instance, he kills many of Morgoth's troops in his ongoing defence of Nargothrond, and ends by killing Morgoth's prize dragon Glaurung, who was mentioned in previous battles as being a powerful tool of Morgoth (see [S] Index for references). Because of his heroic deeds, Turin is highly acclaimed by Elves. For instance, Elrond classes him with his father Hurin, his grandfather Hador, and the earlier Beren as great Elf-friends and heroes of Men [LotR, chapter "The Council of Elrond", last page]. At one point Turin takes for himself the title of "Turambar", or "Master of Doom" [S 217], indicating that he believes himself able to resist the fate known to be desired for him by Morgoth; indeed the chapter about him in _The Silmarillion_ uses this name in its title. Despite the description of him by his sister, "Master of Doom, By Doom Mastered" [S 223], it is clear that he has been partially successful in his goal of wresting himself from Morgoth's control. Thus Morgoth pays a heavy price for seeing his desire for revenge satisfied by trying to manipulate Turin rather than simply killing him. As in the story of Tuor, free will and mortality are linked in the story of Turin. If Turin were simply to give himself over to the will of Morgoth as Tuor does with Ulmo, a different fate might be in store for him. One thinks of the fate of the Nazgul of _The Lord of the Rings_, who are granted immortality like that of the Elves as long as Sauron lives, though completely enslaved to the will of Sauron. It is therefore appropriate that the last act of Turin is the ultimate expression of free will and mortality combined: suicide. Turin decides to kill himself with the great sword with which many of his evil acts have been accomplished, doing so by setting the hilts upon the ground and falling on it like Aquinas' stone. With this act of will, he conclusively prevents himself from being further manipulated by Morgoth, and indeed takes himself conclusively out of the realm of influence by any Vala and into the place ordained for Men in the afterlife. It is significant that his father Hurin eventually follows his lead, killing himself by "cast[ing] himself at last into the western sea" [S 232]. Conclusion ---------- Tolkien's Middle-earth is a battleground of good and evil. On this battleground, influenced by the forces of evil, Men look wistfully at the apparent "gifts" of the Elves, immortality and sometimes great supernatural power. But Tolkien makes it clear that it is rather the Men who have the gifts. We generally do not see mortality as a gift, but (consistent with Christian theology) this is only because we have not been told exactly what the creator's purpose is or exactly what awaits us in the afterlife. Similarly, we also cannot always tell that our free will is a gift, because it sometimes seems to lead to evil things. However, Tolkien provides us with examples of beings (the Elves) who are not mortal, but whose will is merely a part of an earlier prediction (the Ainulindale); and in the stories of the Men Tuor and Turin, he explores the qualities that define the boundary between the two classes of beings. By the end of the great story cycle in _The Lord of the Rings_, the Elves are weary of the world, and look wistfully upon what Men have. It is as Tolkien says of Men in "Of the Beginning of Days" [S 42]: "Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy." --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 03:17:07 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3c8c2181.40825906@news.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-778.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81142 I have not read the essay yet, but I strongly suggest that you pick up a copy of Morgoth's Ring and read the essays "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" which contain information on the gift of men. -Chris ###### From: mdw@ncipher.com (Mark Wooding) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin References: Organization: nCipher development Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Date: 11 Mar 2002 11:54:34 GMT Lines: 70 NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.ncipher.com X-Trace: 1015847674 reading.news.pipex.net 8510 62.190.84.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81162 Jamie Andrews wrote: > A few weeks ago, I decided to undertake a rethinking and > rewriting of an old essay of mine. Recently on the newsgroup, > issues have come up which are relevant to the essay, so I > decided to finally polish it up and post it here. Please let me > know what you think. An interesting and thought-provoking essay. A few minor points, though. > The Ainur consist of the Valar (the (Great) "Powers") > and the Maiar (no translation of this name is given, but these > are effectively the Lesser Powers). My understanding, from Valaquenta, is that the Ainur fall into three groups: * those who stayed with Eru outside of Arda; * those who joined up with Melkor when he entered Arda; and * those who entered Arda and opposed Melkor. It is this last group that is further subdivided into Valar and Maiar. The Ainur who did not enter Arda are not so divided. (This also suggests that Sauron, who is accounted a Maia of Aule, didn't hang with Melkor from the very beginning, but joined him later.) > Although there are two instances of Elves being granted > mortality (Luthien and Arwen), there is only one instance of a > Man being granted immortality: Tuor. Interestingly, Tuor and Idril seems to be the oldest imagined Elf-Man coupling (the earliest conception of Beren was that he was an Elf). I don't have LT2 here with me, but I dimly remember that Tuor's accouting as one of the Firstborn was present even in this early version. I'm not sure Arwen actually counts as `Elf granted mortality': as Elrond's daughter, I think she counts as half-elven and hence gets the choice. While we're on this subject, I think there's some scope for analysis of Luthien's behaviour from a free-will/mortality point of view. Oh, and the half-elven (Earendil and his sons) raise interesting questions. Elrond chose to be accounted among the Firstborn, thus (like Tuor) voluntarily surrendering his free-will and mortality. But which bit of the Music covers Elrond's post-becoming-an-Elf actions? Was there a conditional `if Elrond decides he likes free will, ignore this bit' section in the Music? This seems somewhat bizarre. (Also, why did Earendil get the choice, but Dior seemingly not? I can see why the position of Elrond and Elros is more complicated, being half-elven on both maternal and paternal sides.) > Tuor, being an Elf at the end of his story, sails off to dwell like > them with the Valar in Valinor. Though, it appears, he doesn't actually get there. Or he's delayed en-route and arrives after Earendil. Or he turns up, but keeps a low profile and doesn't bother pointing out to anyone when he gets there that Middle-Earth is in a serious fix. > Thus, Turin, like Tuor, is influenced by a Vala and to a > certain extent acts out the Vala's will. Melkor is definitely /not/ accounted one of the Valar, though he's of similar power. I thought this was made abundantly clear in Valaquenta. -- [mdw] ###### From: Lena@wgp.org (Lena Falkenhagen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:10:57 GMT Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-145-254-152-038.arcor-ip.net (145.254.152.38) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1015852248 14950687 145.254.152.38 (16 [5962]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dialin-145-254-152-038.arcor-ip.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81137 On 11 Mar 2002 01:25:51 GMT, address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) wrote: Very interesting essay! I have one or two comments to the concept of free will that you analyse on the story of Tuor: But first: There are more people allowed to leave to the West, from the Grey Havens: Bilbo and Frodo, and maybe Sam! Though strictly speaking, they are, of course, no "men". I wonder if your concept holds true for hobbits as well, though. >The Story of Tuor >----------------- >Ulmo announces that he "will set words in >[Tuor's] mouth to say unto Turgon", and gives him explicit >commands about what to do to get to Turgon [UT pg. 29]. Tuor, >rather than rebelling against Ulmo, accepts his commands. > > On at least two later occasions, Tuor speaks words without >voluntarily willing it. I recently re-read the LotR. Reading your essay, a couple of scenes came to my mind in which people in the books do, as well, "speak words without voluntarily willing it", as you call it. I remember one definite scene with Sam, having set on the Ring, the light of Eärendil in his hands, confronts first Kankra to save Frodo and afterwards the Sphinxes when he tries to enter the Ork tower behind Minas Morgul to, again, save Frodo. Both times, Sam says Elven words, a poem, that he does not really know, that he does not understand, and he says them not from his own will, but rather as somebody else was speaking through him. Later, Bilbo and Frodo, both Ringbearers, are allowed to pass from the Grey Havens, and Frodo says, that Sam may be following later. did they "earn" this right by bearing the ring? Your concept of swapping free will and mortality against immortal life in the West seems to hold for these three as well, since the Ringbearers obviously gave away their free will (to whom is the question, maybe to Melkor?) and mortality (as the Ring prolonged life) and earned a passage to the West by that. Just some thoughts. Lena ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:11:47 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 58 Message-ID: <3c8cd530.6478836@news.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-164.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81144 On 11 Mar 2002 01:25:51 GMT, address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) posted the following: >The Story of Tuor >----------------- > Although there are two instances of Elves being granted >mortality (Luthien and Arwen), there is only one instance of a >Man being granted immortality: Tuor. > In after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was > numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, > whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men. > [S 245] This is extremely suspect, and some people (including myself) believe that this did not actually happen, and that it was likely rejected by Tolkien. That passage you quoted from the Silmarillion comes from the "Quenta", which is the 1930's version of the Silmarillion. Just to show you how different the state of the mythology was, here is the original version of the passage before CT's editorial cleanup: "In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship Earrame, Sea-Wing, and with Idril he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldoli whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the Gnomes of Tol Eressea; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men." (IV, p. 151 & notes 2, 3 on p. 155) (Before the emendation, the final part read "ever upon his ship voyaging in Fairyland") This part of the story was never touched again in the Silmarillion or Annals tradition, so this is all we have. But years later, after the publication of the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien wrote an essay about mortal men and Aman, and he says that no man could ever come to Aman, and Tuor is not mentioned as an exception. I think it is likely that Tolkien rejected this former idea (or perhaps retained it as wishful thinking of the singers.) Several things were brought up when I stated this before: 1. Frodo, Sam, etc. came to Tol Eressea. But this is different from reaching Aman, and this came at a totally different time (Tuor sailed during the Ban of the Valar) 2. Tuor is used to represent Earendil's human lineage in the council of the Valar. Since this part was written before the LotR, it is possible that the story of Tuor becoming Eldar was abandoned even by then. -Chris -Chris ###### Lines: 270 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Mar 2002 16:18:12 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-fo) Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Message-ID: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!novia!novia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81146 In article , address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) writes: >The Christian Conception of Free Will >------------------------------------- > > To start with, it is useful to review the Christian >conception of free will, since Tolkien was a devout Catholic and >some of his thinking on the subject may have been influenced by >his beliefs. I am not a theologian, so please forgive any >simplification contained in this section. > > In Christian theology, God is omnipotent but men are said >to have free will. This presents a seeming paradox: God can >direct all things, but men can choose for themselves how to act. >If men can go against the will of God, then God is not >omnipotent after all; but if God is always directing how men >act, then men do not have free will. It's not really a paradox. The fact that God *can* do something but chooses not to does not affect his omnipotence. > Essentially, this explanation says that men are not subject >to the will of God in the sense of God being always a separate, >external power forcing them to act as they otherwise would not. >Rather, a man's free will is part of God's will; we might say >that the will of each individual man is a tiny fragment of the >will of God. When individual men make decisions which (for >instance) conflict with each other or go against the Ten >Commandments, these are in fact fragments of God's will battling >each other. Why God has set up the world in this way is >mysterious to us, but in Christian theology, the reason will be >revealed after the Last Judgement. Hmmm. I don't think this last summary at all describes Catholic views on Free Will, especially the part about fragment sof God's will battling eachother. Here's a few selections from the Catechism. 1704. "The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By FREE WILL, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection 'in seeking and loving what is true and good" 1730. "God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. 'God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.'[GS 17; Sir 15:14 .] Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with FREE WILL and is master over his acts.[St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4, 4, 3: PG 7/1, 983.]" 1731. "Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By FREE WILL one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude. " 1993. "Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own FREE WILL move himself toward justice in God's sight.[Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.] " >The Ainulindale and Free Will >----------------------------- > Eru then creates Arda, the World, which contains >Middle-earth, Actually, he created Ea.. > It is in the later chapter "Of the Beginning of Days" in >_The Silmarillion_ that the subject of the "strange gifts" of >Men [S 41] is raised. It is mentioned that Men have free will, >and it is explicitly said that they in fact have the power to >make decisions that go beyond the Ainulindale. > > Therefore [Eru] willed that the hearts of Men should seek > beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they > should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and > chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is > as fate to all things else... [S 41] > >Given that nothing of the free will of Men can conflict with the >will of Eru, but that the free will of Men can explicitly go >outside the Ainulindale, we seem to have a contradiction. > > On closer examination, however, the contradiction >disappears. The Ainulindale is only the Music of the Ainur, and >does not constitute the whole mind of Eru. The implication is >that the free will of Men is not entirely subject to the will of >the Ainur, but rather is at least partially outside it. In the >terms used in the last section, the will of an individual Man is >a fragment of the will of Eru, but not (exclusively) a fragment >of the Ainulindale. The Ainur can influence Men (for instance, >Gandalf is a Maia and influences Men throughout _The Lord of the >Rings_), and may in part be able to predict their actions; and >Tolkien does not deny the possibility that parts of the will of >an individual Man can be fragments of the will of one or more >Ainur. However, at least part of the will of any normal Man can >be entirely independent of the Ainur. This is where I disagree. I think the idea of Man's will as a fragment of God's will is not what's going on. In Catholic theology, God gave Men completely separate and independent rational souls. They are not mere fragments of his will, in fact, as Genesis states Man is made in God's image, which refers to the spiritual soul, according to Catholic doctrine. Eru correctly (obviously) states that nothing can be done in his despite, but that is not the same thing as Eru asserting that he is going to check the operation of the free will of his creations. The operation of his Children's free will *is* his desire even if this operation is not as he would wish. Eru does not check the free will of his children and thus when they act contrary to the good, that does not in any way contradict Eru's omnipotence. Quite the contrary because as you point out, even seeming evil ultimately redounds to the great good and glory of Eru. >The Free Will of Elves >---------------------- > In contrast, because the free will of Men can go beyond the >Ainulindale, it follows that the Ainur cannot completely predict >or control Men's actions. Indeed, as the dominance of Men proceeds it is the Valar who become more impotent. >The Story of Tuor >----------------- > > So far we have been mostly talking about free will. But >free will is linked explicitly to mortality as the two "strange >gifts" of Eru to Men: > > It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men > dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound > to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. [S 42] > > To see this linkage in action, we turn to the stories of >two Men, Tuor and his cousin Turin. The story of Tuor is >presented later than that of Turin in _The Silmarillion_, but >for our purposes it is more useful to discuss Tuor's story first. > > Although there are two instances of Elves being granted >mortality (Luthien and Arwen), there is only one instance of a >Man being granted immortality: Tuor. This latter reversal seems >a more strange and theologically troubling one, since the Men of >Middle-earth are supposed to correspond to us mortal men of >earth, and as far as we know, no normal man of our world has >ever been granted immortality. Why did Tolkien choose for this >to happen in Middle-earth? I'm a bit hesitatant to conclude that Tuor's fate was sealed that way. That conception was an early pre-LOTR conception that occurred well before much of his later ruminations on these issues. In fact, the text you cite above concerning the Ainulindale, IIRC, come from c. 1951 whereas the Tuor=>Elf conception you cite below is at least 15 years prior to that. > To be totally precise, at this point the most explicit >statement that is made about Tuor's fate is the following. > > In after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was > numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, > whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men. > [S 245] > Thus, at the end of the story, one of Tuor's "gifts" has >been taken away from him: his mortality. But it is clear that >the other "gift" has also been taken away from him: his free >will, in the sense of a will separate from the Ainulindale. >From the time that Tuor departs from his homeland, he is drawn >by Ulmo toward the sea. When Tuor meets Ulmo, he asks him, >"What then is my goal, Lord?" [UT pg. 28]. Ulmo gives Tuor a >cloak, in this way extending his protection to Tuor; as Ulmo >puts it to Tuor, "Thus thou shalt walk under my shadow". He >asks Tuor "Wilt thou take up my errand?" and Tuor obediantly >says "I will, Lord". Ulmo announces that he "will set words in >[Tuor's] mouth to say unto Turgon", and gives him explicit >commands about what to do to get to Turgon [UT pg. 29]. Tuor, >rather than rebelling against Ulmo, accepts his commands. > > On at least two later occasions, Tuor speaks words without >voluntarily willing it. He hails his companion-to-be Voronwe by >name without having known the name before [UT pg. 31], and when >he speaks words at the last gate to Gondolin, "it seemed that he >listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his >mouth." [UT pg. 50] Although the _Unfinished Tales_ narrative >breaks off before Tuor reaches Turgon, the implication of the >earlier text is that something similar happens when Tuor speaks >the words "set in his mouth" by Ulmo. To be crude, Tuor has >turned into virtually a marionnette of Ulmo. I think this misses the aspect of free will present. Tuor exercised his free will earlier when he answers in the affirmative when Ulmo asks him whether he will take up his errand. Lack of free will is not to be confused with mere outside influence. > The pattern continues through the remainder of Tuor's life, >as only he and the few Elvish exiles of Gondolin actually act on >Ulmo's command to leave Gondolin and go to the mouth of the >Sirion. I think this overstates what is going on here. Following advice and instruction is not a denial of free will. Free will is a much more profound concept that deals with the soul, not the brain. > It is clear that Eru must have a hand in Tuor's conversion, >but nothing is explicitly said about this. Similarly, nothing >is explicitly said about Ulmo's reasons for wanting to influence >Tuor in this way. He does say that he is "diminished, until in >Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper" [UT >29]. Apparently, because of the wilfulness of the Noldor whom >he loves, Ulmo decides that the only way for him to get the >Gondolindrim to depart is to locate a virtuous Man from a >virtuous family, deprive him of his free will, and send him >instead as a messenger. Again, I do not think this is what is happening at all. Quite the contrary in fact. This is precisely an example of free will. Ultimately, Tuor had made the moral choice to follow Ulmo. He exercised his free will. Let's put this back into the broader context of Catholic theology on free will as quoted in the Catechism: 'God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him." >The Story of Turin I like this section. >Conclusion >---------- It is an excellent essay that certainly raises thoughtful points. My main disagreement comes with the meaning of free will. If you are going with the assumption that free will in Middle-earth should match Catholic ideas on the subject (as assumption I agree with), I think you should bring the definitions more in line with Catholic doctrine on the matter, a seen in the Catechism. Moreover, I think you are confusing a voluntary act of submission to God with a lack of free will, when in Catholic thinking that is actually an *exercise* of free will. In the Gospels, this is seen most poignantly in the Passion: "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22:42). Tuor's voluntary act of submission to Ulmo was an exersice of free will; not a derogation of it. Russ ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:19:57 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3c8cd906.7460926@news.newsguy.com> References: <3c8cd530.6478836@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-389.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81143 On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:11:47 GMT, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) posted the following: >"In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing >for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he >built a great ship Earrame, Sea-Wing, and with Idril he set sail into >the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But >Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined >with the Noldoli whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so >it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the Elven-lands, or >resting a while in the harbours of the Gnomes of Tol Eressea; and his >fate is sundered from the fate of Men." >(IV, p. 151 & notes 2, 3 on p. 155) And as a side note, this passage is pretty odd -- Tuor "came no more into any tale or song", but then in the next sentence there's another tale about him :-) -Chris ###### From: taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 11 Mar 2002 09:35:52 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9c64b76e.0203110935.6cc93fed@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.251.68.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1015868152 27974 127.0.0.1 (11 Mar 2002 17:35:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2002 17:35:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81183 mdw@ncipher.com (Mark Wooding) wrote in message news:... > (Also, why did Earendil get the choice, but Dior seemingly not? I can > see why the position of Elrond and Elros is more complicated, being > half-elven on both maternal and paternal sides.) Dior died before the offer was made. The choice of fates was not offered until Earendil had already journied to Aman. Dior's timing was bad. --- AaronC ###### From: mdw@ncipher.com (Mark Wooding) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin References: <9c64b76e.0203110935.6cc93fed@posting.google.com> Organization: nCipher development Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Date: 11 Mar 2002 18:01:38 GMT Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.ncipher.com X-Trace: 1015869698 reading.news.pipex.net 8514 62.190.84.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!auucp0.ams.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81165 AC wrote: > mdw@ncipher.com (Mark Wooding) wrote in message news:... > > (Also, why did Earendil get the choice, but Dior seemingly not? I can > > see why the position of Elrond and Elros is more complicated, being > > half-elven on both maternal and paternal sides.) > > Dior died before the offer was made. The choice of fates was not > offered until Earendil had already journied to Aman. Dior's timing > was bad. Yes, there is that. Maybe someone should have dug him up and asked... Can you imagine Mandos trundling along to his Halls and saying `Hey, Dior, d'ye want to hang around here forever, or find out what Men get up to?' ;-) Now that I remember, his daughter Elwing /did/ get the choice. -- [mdw] ###### From: taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 11 Mar 2002 10:30:55 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9c64b76e.0203111030.5989613e@posting.google.com> References: <3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.251.68.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1015871455 29619 127.0.0.1 (11 Mar 2002 18:30:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2002 18:30:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!deine.net!feed.cgocable.net!newsfeed-tor.nnrp.ca!newsfeed-tor.nnrp.ca!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81173 Lena@wgp.org (Lena Falkenhagen) wrote in message news:<3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de>... > Later, Bilbo and Frodo, both Ringbearers, are allowed to pass from the Grey > Havens, and Frodo says, that Sam may be following later. did they "earn" > this right by bearing the ring? > > Your concept of swapping free will and mortality against immortal life in > the West seems to hold for these three as well, since the Ringbearers > obviously gave away their free will (to whom is the question, maybe to > Melkor?) and mortality (as the Ring prolonged life) and earned a passage to > the West by that. There was no swapping of free will for immortality. Frodo, Bilbo and Sam did not have their fates changed. What they did receive was a small grace, to live for a time in Arda Unmarred before passing on. For Frodo, particularly, who had suffered the most, it was, to paraphrase Tolkien, a chance to be healed and to see his largeness and smallness. It appears, that in part, Frodo's passage into the West was "bought" by Arwen's remaining in Middle Earth. It is also likely that Gandalf, as an emissary of the Valar, gained access into the West for Frodo and Bilbo (and likely, in time, for Sam as well). Of all the Children of Illuvatar (Men and Elves) only Tuor and Luthien ever had their fates changed. Luthien became mortal and passed beyond Arda upon her death. Tuor *may* have been counted among the Elves, though it is never really confirmed. As the messengers of the Valar explained to the Numenorians when the shadow first fell upon them; the Undying Lands do not grant immortality, but are hallowed by the folk (Ainur and Elves) that dwell in those lands. There has been some debate as to how long Frodo may have lived in the West before dying. My interpretation, based upon the Akaballeth is that mortals who went to the Undying Lands would, in fact, die more quickly (like a moth to a light to bright). --- AaronC ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:55:32 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com> References: <3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de> <9c64b76e.0203111030.5989613e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-904.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81199 On 11 Mar 2002 10:30:55 -0800, taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) posted the following: >Lena@wgp.org (Lena Falkenhagen) wrote in message news:<3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de>... >> Your concept of swapping free will and mortality against immortal life in >> the West seems to hold for these three as well, since the Ringbearers >> obviously gave away their free will (to whom is the question, maybe to >> Melkor?) and mortality (as the Ring prolonged life) and earned a passage to >> the West by that. > >There was no swapping of free will for immortality. Frodo, Bilbo and >Sam did not have their fates changed. What they did receive was a >small grace, to live for a time in Arda Unmarred before passing on. I thought they were only allowed to go to Tol Eressea, not actually Aman. > My interpretation, based upon >the Akaballeth is that mortals who went to the Undying Lands would, in >fact, die more quickly (like a moth to a light to bright). That suspicion is confirmed by the "Aman" essay found in Morgoth's Ring. It's hard to know how to interpret the final passage of the Akallabeth: "And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died." Does this mean they died immediately upon reaching Aman? That seems to be the suggestion (although you wonder how that could be considered "favour" of the Valar), but it's possible that something else is meant by that. -Chris ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:25:34 +0000 Lines: 75 Message-ID: <3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com> References: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-402.alakazam.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1015881784 29673 217.135.12.146 (11 Mar 2002 21:23:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2002 21:23:04 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81191 Russ wrote: > > In article , address@bottom.of.message (Jamie > Andrews) writes: > [big snip of Free Will section] > > > >The Story of Tuor > >----------------- > > > > So far we have been mostly talking about free will. But > >free will is linked explicitly to mortality as the two "strange > >gifts" of Eru to Men: > > > > It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men > > dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound > > to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. [S 42] > > > > To see this linkage in action, we turn to the stories of > >two Men, Tuor and his cousin Turin. The story of Tuor is > >presented later than that of Turin in _The Silmarillion_, but > >for our purposes it is more useful to discuss Tuor's story first. > > > > Although there are two instances of Elves being granted > >mortality (Luthien and Arwen), there is only one instance of a > >Man being granted immortality: Tuor. This latter reversal seems > >a more strange and theologically troubling one, since the Men of > >Middle-earth are supposed to correspond to us mortal men of > >earth, and as far as we know, no normal man of our world has > >ever been granted immortality. Why did Tolkien choose for this > >to happen in Middle-earth? > > I'm a bit hesitatant to conclude that Tuor's fate was sealed that way. That > conception was an early pre-LOTR conception that occurred well before much of > his later ruminations on these issues. In fact, the text you cite above > concerning the Ainulindale, IIRC, come from c. 1951 whereas the Tuor=>Elf > conception you cite below is at least 15 years prior to that. > The possibility was still alive in 1954. Letter #153: "... Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal ... Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way". The implications are: 1. Tuor may have received immortality, but Tolkien was not certain (or, at least, wanted to leave his fate at the same level of 'authority' (or lack of) as the departure of Sam Gamgee over Sea. 2. The gaining of immortality for Tuor may have been balanced by the gaining of the Gift of Men by Luthien. > [snip] > > > > >The Story of Turin > > > > I like this section. Me too. [snip the rest, mainly because I'm too tired to comment on it] Excellent essay, very thought provoking. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 11 Mar 2002 14:07:44 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 72 Message-ID: <9c64b76e.0203111407.6b2f1aae@posting.google.com> References: <3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de> <9c64b76e.0203111030.5989613e@posting.google.com> <3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.251.68.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1015884464 3620 127.0.0.1 (11 Mar 2002 22:07:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2002 22:07:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81207 kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com>... > On 11 Mar 2002 10:30:55 -0800, taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) posted the > following: > > >Lena@wgp.org (Lena Falkenhagen) wrote in message news:<3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de>... > > >> Your concept of swapping free will and mortality against immortal life in > >> the West seems to hold for these three as well, since the Ringbearers > >> obviously gave away their free will (to whom is the question, maybe to > >> Melkor?) and mortality (as the Ring prolonged life) and earned a passage to > >> the West by that. > > > >There was no swapping of free will for immortality. Frodo, Bilbo and > >Sam did not have their fates changed. What they did receive was a > >small grace, to live for a time in Arda Unmarred before passing on. > > I thought they were only allowed to go to Tol Eressea, not actually > Aman. That, I believe, is the case. But Tol Eressea is a part of Arda Unmarred. I think Aman is restricted to the "mainland" of the West, and not to Tol Eressea and the various isles. > > > My interpretation, based upon > >the Akaballeth is that mortals who went to the Undying Lands would, in > >fact, die more quickly (like a moth to a light to bright). > > That suspicion is confirmed by the "Aman" essay found in Morgoth's > Ring. It's hard to know how to interpret the final passage of the > Akallabeth: > > "And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea > concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some > fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the > Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and > so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallone, or verily to the > last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the > White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died." > > Does this mean they died immediately upon reaching Aman? That seems > to be the suggestion (although you wonder how that could be considered > "favour" of the Valar), but it's possible that something else is meant > by that. I don't have Letters in front of me, but I did a search and found this extraction of Letter #246: "Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to `pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greateness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of `Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." I'll double check it when I get home tonight to make sure this is correct, but it looks pretty accurate. From this Letter one does not get the sense that Frodo and Bilbo died immediately. However, unlike later mariners, Frodo and Bilbo also went with a number of Elves and a Maia in a ship likely specially hallowed for the Straight Path. Considering the warning by the emessaries of the Valar to the Numenorians, I cannot see Frodo living a full span as a mortal would in Middle Earth. He certainly didn't catch just a glimpse of the undying lands, and "for a while" in the Letter seems to hint he spent some time there. --- AaronC ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:15:39 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3c8d484c.35951124@news.newsguy.com> References: <3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de> <9c64b76e.0203111030.5989613e@posting.google.com> <3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com> <9c64b76e.0203111407.6b2f1aae@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-767.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81253 On 11 Mar 2002 14:07:44 -0800, taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) posted the following: >kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com>... >> Does this mean they died immediately upon reaching Aman? That seems >> to be the suggestion (although you wonder how that could be considered >> "favour" of the Valar), but it's possible that something else is meant >> by that. Note that I was just speaking of men in general, since Frodo and company did not go to Aman, they would not have died. >Considering the warning by the emessaries of the Valar to the >Numenorians, I cannot see Frodo living a full span as a mortal would >in Middle Earth. He certainly didn't catch just a glimpse of the >undying lands, and "for a while" in the Letter seems to hint he spent >some time there. Tol Eressea had always been thought of as a place separate from Aman, where a mortal could go. -Chris ###### From: taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 12 Mar 2002 09:24:24 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 38 Message-ID: <9c64b76e.0203120924.22e171ea@posting.google.com> References: <3c8dacb8.19660672@news.cis.dfn.de> <9c64b76e.0203111030.5989613e@posting.google.com> <3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com> <9c64b76e.0203111407.6b2f1aae@posting.google.com> <3c8d484c.35951124@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.251.68.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1015953865 32024 127.0.0.1 (12 Mar 2002 17:24:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2002 17:24:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81282 kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3c8d484c.35951124@news.newsguy.com>... > On 11 Mar 2002 14:07:44 -0800, taocow@mail.alberni.net (AC) posted the > following: > > >kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3c8cfcc3.16610894@news.newsguy.com>... > > >> Does this mean they died immediately upon reaching Aman? That seems > >> to be the suggestion (although you wonder how that could be considered > >> "favour" of the Valar), but it's possible that something else is meant > >> by that. > > Note that I was just speaking of men in general, since Frodo and > company did not go to Aman, they would not have died. Tol Eressea may not be part of *Aman*, but it easternmost of the Undying Lands. It is a mortal land, and when the Earth was changed, Tol Eressea was removed a long with Aman. > > >Considering the warning by the emessaries of the Valar to the > >Numenorians, I cannot see Frodo living a full span as a mortal would > >in Middle Earth. He certainly didn't catch just a glimpse of the > >undying lands, and "for a while" in the Letter seems to hint he spent > >some time there. > > Tol Eressea had always been thought of as a place separate from Aman, > where a mortal could go. Only in the earliest drafts of the Akaballeth were the Numenorians permitted to got to Tol Eressea, and that was just the king, who was permitted to go there once before he died. All the later versions state quite clearly that the Numenoreans were not to sail into the West so far that they could not see Numenor. Tol Eressea was easternmost of the Undying Lands, and mortals were barred from going there. As Tolkien said in Letters, it was a special grace. --- AaronC ###### From: address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 13 Mar 2002 17:52:11 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Western Ontario Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hyphocus.csd.uwo.ca X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 1016041931 25046 129.100.11.51 (13 Mar 2002 17:52:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2002 17:52:11 GMT Originator: andrews@csd.uwo.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!csd.uwo.ca!andrews Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81304 Just wanted to say, thanks very much to everyone for all your great comments on my essay (some of them posted less than 24 hours after I posted it!). I don't have time to respond right now, but I should in the next few days. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: 13 Mar 2002 19:41:36 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> <3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1016077296 22052 127.0.0.1 (14 Mar 2002 03:41:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2002 03:41:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81481 Andy Cooke wrote in message news:<3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com>... > Russ wrote: > > > > In article , address@bottom.of.message (Jamie > > Andrews) writes: > > > [big snip of Free Will section] > > > > > > > >The Story of Tuor > > >----------------- > > > > > > So far we have been mostly talking about free will. But > > >free will is linked explicitly to mortality as the two "strange > > >gifts" of Eru to Men: > > > > > > It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men > > > dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound > > > to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. [S 42] > > > > > > To see this linkage in action, we turn to the stories of > > >two Men, Tuor and his cousin Turin. The story of Tuor is > > >presented later than that of Turin in _The Silmarillion_, but > > >for our purposes it is more useful to discuss Tuor's story first. > > > > > > Although there are two instances of Elves being granted > > >mortality (Luthien and Arwen), there is only one instance of a > > >Man being granted immortality: Tuor. This latter reversal seems > > >a more strange and theologically troubling one, since the Men of > > >Middle-earth are supposed to correspond to us mortal men of > > >earth, and as far as we know, no normal man of our world has > > >ever been granted immortality. Why did Tolkien choose for this > > >to happen in Middle-earth? Arwen was not an Elf. She was of the Peredhil and allowed a Choice. Luthien was the sole exception among the 'immortals' in being allowed to change fer Fate. > > > > I'm a bit hesitatant to conclude that Tuor's fate was sealed that way. That > > conception was an early pre-LOTR conception that occurred well before much of > > his later ruminations on these issues. In fact, the text you cite above > > concerning the Ainulindale, IIRC, come from c. 1951 whereas the Tuor=>Elf > > conception you cite below is at least 15 years prior to that. > > > > The possibility was still alive in 1954. Letter #153: > "... Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest > herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal ... Tuor weds Idril > the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' > (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish > limited 'immortality': an exception either way". > > The implications are: > 1. Tuor may have received immortality, but Tolkien was not > certain (or, at least, wanted to leave his fate at the same level > of 'authority' (or lack of) as the departure of Sam Gamgee over > Sea. > 2. The gaining of immortality for Tuor may have been balanced by > the gaining of the Gift of Men by Luthien. > A very good letter; if you read to the end of the next paragraph you will note that JRRT (as author) drops the 'supposition' and notes that Tuor fade his fate (or 'kind') changed by a direct act of Eru (sorry, can't quote, dont have Letters in hand at this time). Tar-Elenion ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 05:37:35 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3c9036f2.55393641@news.newsguy.com> References: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> <3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-922.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81410 On 13 Mar 2002 19:41:36 -0800, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) posted the following: >A very good letter; if you read to the end of the next paragraph you >will note that JRRT (as author) drops the 'supposition' and notes that >Tuor fade his fate (or 'kind') changed by a direct act of Eru (sorry, >can't quote, dont have Letters in hand at this time). Damn, there goes my "rejected" theory. Why would Eru do something like that? It doesn't make sense to me -- now I know how someone else felt when confronted with a letter that confirms Sam reached Tol Eressea :-) -Chris ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:57:29 +0000 Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3C90F299.98BCB971@hotmail.com> References: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> <3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-192.ballistic.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1016132098 14830 62.25.136.192 (14 Mar 2002 18:54:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2002 18:54:58 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81365 Tar-Elenion wrote: > > Andy Cooke wrote in message news:<3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com>... [snip] > > Letter #153: "... Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest > > herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal ... Tuor weds Idril > > the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' > > (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish > > limited 'immortality': an exception either way". > > > > The implications are: > > 1. Tuor may have received immortality, but Tolkien was not > > certain (or, at least, wanted to leave his fate at the same level > > of 'authority' (or lack of) as the departure of Sam Gamgee over > > Sea. > > 2. The gaining of immortality for Tuor may have been balanced by > > the gaining of the Gift of Men by Luthien. > > > > A very good letter; if you read to the end of the next paragraph you > will note that JRRT (as author) drops the 'supposition' and notes that > Tuor fade his fate (or 'kind') changed by a direct act of Eru (sorry, > can't quote, dont have Letters in hand at this time). > Ah! I thought that it said that somewhere, but I couldn't find it at a quick scan, so I just put in what I could confirm. You are right, the passage is "... the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves." -- Andy Cooke ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:00:11 +0000 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3C90F33B.E7A863E4@hotmail.com> References: <20020311111812.09994.00000545@mb-fo.aol.com> <3C8D20CE.AF965601@hotmail.com> <3c9036f2.55393641@news.newsguy.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-192.ballistic.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1016132259 14830 62.25.136.192 (14 Mar 2002 18:57:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2002 18:57:39 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81366 Chris Kern wrote: > > On 13 Mar 2002 19:41:36 -0800, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) > posted the following: > > >A very good letter; if you read to the end of the next paragraph you > >will note that JRRT (as author) drops the 'supposition' and notes that > >Tuor fade his fate (or 'kind') changed by a direct act of Eru (sorry, > >can't quote, dont have Letters in hand at this time). > > Damn, there goes my "rejected" theory. Why would Eru do something > like that? It doesn't make sense to me -- now I know how someone else > felt when confronted with a letter that confirms Sam reached Tol > Eressea :-) > The theme appears to be that Eru allows souls in love to remain together, rather than to be sundered by the differing fates of the Kindreds. Luthien was allowed Mortality to remain with Beren; in balance of this Tuor was allowed Immortality to remain with Idril. As to why they have to balance, it is due to an obscure quantum mechanical law called "the conservation of fea number" -- Andy Cooke ###### Lines: 18 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 15 Mar 2002 00:29:29 GMT References: <3C90F33B.E7A863E4@hotmail.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-cg) Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Message-ID: <20020314192929.09793.00000243@mb-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81416 In article <3C90F33B.E7A863E4@hotmail.com>, Andy Cooke writes: >The theme appears to be that Eru allows souls in love to remain >together, rather than to be sundered by the differing fates of >the Kindreds. Tell that to Andreth or Finduilas. >Luthien was allowed Mortality to remain with >Beren; in balance of this Tuor was allowed Immortality to remain >with Idril. >As to why they have to balance, it is due to an obscure quantum >mechanical law called "the conservation of fea number" What about Nimrazor and Mithrellas? Russ ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange Gifts: Free Will and Mortality, Tuor and Turin Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:44:23 +0000 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3C924F17.20251906@hotmail.com> References: <3C90F33B.E7A863E4@hotmail.com> <20020314192929.09793.00000243@mb-cg.aol.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-835.blotto.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1016221311 12594 62.25.147.67 (15 Mar 2002 19:41:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Mar 2002 19:41:51 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:81356 Russ wrote: > > In article <3C90F33B.E7A863E4@hotmail.com>, Andy Cooke > writes: > > >The theme appears to be that Eru allows souls in love to remain > >together, rather than to be sundered by the differing fates of > >the Kindreds. > > Tell that to Andreth or Finduilas. Umm. You see ... Nuts. Okay, I'll try again. Eru allows some souls in love to a degree that changes the world to be rewarded with eternal coexistence. Would that work? > >Luthien was allowed Mortality to remain with > >Beren; in balance of this Tuor was allowed Immortality to remain > >with Idril. > >As to why they have to balance, it is due to an obscure quantum > >mechanical law called "the conservation of fea number" > > What about Nimrazor and Mithrellas? No change in conservation of fea number. Neither changed their nature. -- Andy Cooke