From: Klaus Drechsler Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:28:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: University of Bremen Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.102.72.12 X-Trace: f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de 1014895703 13794 134.102.72.12 (28 Feb 2002 11:28:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:28:23 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-x2.support.nl!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news.zfn.uni-bremen.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80004 Hi newsgroup! I'm just in the middle of my first reading of LOTR in *english*. With english not being my native language I also belong to this incosiderable minority which is used to this obscure *metric system*. So my only clue to "how far's travellin'" in LOTR is my dictionary. Unfortunalety the translations of the non-metric measures to german (that's me) are not definite - so I'd be rather lucky if someone could help me there a little. - LEAGUE is translatet as ... a) "Meile" (=mile) in a poetic sense (which I think isn't meant, because Tolkien also writes of MILES in other context) b) the distance of approx 4.8 kilometers - FATHOM is translated as ... "Klafter", which is an old german measure spanning the distance of (regionally different) 1.7 to 2.9 meters. That's not very exact. How long is the english "fathom"? - FURLONG is translated as ... "Achtelmeile" (= eight of a mile), that would be approx. 200 meters. Is this correct or is there some other poetic "furlong"? - ELL ... suppose this will mean the "english ell" 1,1143m? (the inventor of this measure must have been rather large, having such an ell.) The german "ell" is, however, of totally different length (little less than 2 ft.) Thanks for any help! Greetings, Klaus ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.109.100.252 From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Message-ID: <3c7e342a.3657245@news.ed.shawcable.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 38 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:57:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1014904677 24.70.95.207 (Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:57:57 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:57:57 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:79992 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:28:23 +0000 (UTC), Klaus Drechsler wrote, in part: >- LEAGUE is translatet as ... > b) the distance of approx 4.8 kilometers Yes, a league is three miles. >- FATHOM is translated as ... A fathom, used principally for measuring depths under water, is precisely six feet (approximately 180 cm). >- FURLONG is translated as ... > "Achtelmeile" (= eight of a mile), that would be approx. > 200 meters. Is this correct or is there some other poetic > "furlong"? One foot = 12 inches One yard = 3 feet = 36 inches One chain = 22 yards = 66 feet One furlong = 10 chains = 220 yards = 660 feet One mile = 8 furlongs = 1760 yards = 5280 feet Because the foot is not a convenient fraction of the mile, the chain was also divided into 100 links and 4 rods, for the use of surveyors. So indeed a furlong is one-eighth of a mile exactly. >- ELL ... suppose this will mean the "english ell" 1,1143m? Yes: 45 inches. It is possible, though, that the words refer to Middle-Earth measurement units of *approximately* the same size, so they should probably be regarded as approximate and not exact. Just as calendar dates in Middle-Earth are slightly different, being about a week early among other things. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: Klaus Drechsler Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:00:05 +0000 (UTC) Organization: University of Bremen Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3c7e342a.3657245@news.ed.shawcable.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.102.72.12 X-Trace: f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de 1014908405 17204 134.102.72.12 (28 Feb 2002 15:00:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:00:05 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.174.75.178!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news.zfn.uni-bremen.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80012 jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) schrieb: > [explaining measures...] > > It is possible, though, that the words refer to Middle-Earth > measurement units of *approximately* the same size, so they should > probably be regarded as approximate and not exact. Just as calendar > dates in Middle-Earth are slightly different, being about a week > early among other things. Thanks! That helps. Think you're right with 'approximately' - after all it's fantasy and not a scientific paper. Yet, knowing that a league is 3 miles and not one poetic mile does help me indeed to stop wondering why this fellowship is travelling soooo slooooowly ;o) Greetings, Klaus ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: 28 Feb 2002 07:50:42 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.19.13.216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1014911442 9751 127.0.0.1 (28 Feb 2002 15:50:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2002 15:50:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80041 Klaus Drechsler wrote in message news:... First, we must all applaud your devotion in even pondering these questions. > - LEAGUE is translatet as ... > a) "Meile" (=mile) in a poetic sense (which I think isn't > meant, because Tolkien also writes of MILES in other > context) > b) the distance of approx 4.8 kilometers It IS used casually, isn't it? And who did the measurements from, say, Orthanc to Gondor? Anyway, he appears to mean three miles to the league, which is traditional, and squares with your 4.8 kilometers. Or so I've always assumed. > - ELL ... suppose this will mean the "english ell" 1,1143m? > (the inventor of this measure must have been rather large, > having such an ell.) > The german "ell" is, however, of totally different length > (little less than 2 ft.) The ell, a cloth measure, wsa traditionally the distance from one outstretched hand to the other outstretched hand. For hobbits (it is only Sam who brings it up, yes?) this would be a bit more than half the English ell, I imagine. Ells have so totally died out that no one understands the old English proverb "Give him an inch and he'll take an ell" anymore. It is usually quoted as "mile", which is absurd. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:07:25 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3c7e342a.3657245@news.ed.shawcable.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80027 [cc'd to original poster; please follow up in newsgroup] Around Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:57:57 GMT, the angels dropped their trumpets and gasped in amazement as John Savard wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:28:23 +0000 (UTC), Klaus Drechsler > wrote, in part: > >>- ELL ... suppose this will mean the "english ell" 1,1143m? >Yes: 45 inches. An ell might seem a "natural" unit to a hobbit, as a foot or a yard does to humans, since an ell is pretty close to the height of a tall hobbit. An ell is 3.75 feet, and the Prologue to LotR says that hobbits varied "between two and four feet of our measure". (For people who live in countries with a sensible system of units, an ell is 114 cm and hobbit heights varied between about 61 cm and 122 cm.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:45:24 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C7E5EA4.ACC6145D@law.harvard.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:79938 A Tsar Is Born wrote: > > The ell, a cloth measure, wsa traditionally the distance from one > outstretched hand to the other outstretched hand. For hobbits (it is > only Sam who brings it up, yes?) this would be a bit more than half > the English ell, I imagine. > > Ells have so totally died out that no one understands the old English > proverb "Give him an inch and he'll take an ell" anymore. It is > usually quoted as "mile", which is absurd. > Ah, so it's talking about taking an inch of ribbon or cloth or somesuch? That does make sense...thanks, nifty to know! emilie who in high school worked retail at a fabric store and can still measure out a yard of cloth without a yardstick ###### From: "Andrew Woode" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:42:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-26-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1014921743 18278 62.7.26.43 (28 Feb 2002 18:42:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:42:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:79991 Klaus Drechsler wrote in message news:Xns91C381344B7Ckadunibremende@134.102.20.225... > Hi newsgroup! > > I'm just in the middle of my first reading of LOTR in *english*. > With english not being my native language I also belong to this > incosiderable minority which is used to this obscure *metric > system*. So my only clue to "how far's travellin'" in LOTR is my > dictionary. > > Unfortunalety the translations of the non-metric measures to german > (that's me) are not definite - so I'd be rather lucky that's a bit pessimistic - unless you mean 'happy' (I know 'glücklich' means both) > if someone > could help me there a little. > > - LEAGUE is translatet as ... > a) "Meile" (=mile) in a poetic sense (which I think isn't > meant, because Tolkien also writes of MILES in other > context) > b) the distance of approx 4.8 kilometers In English, the mile is now 1609 m; it varied in the past but usually was of a similar length. The league also varied but was most typically around 3 miles, i.e. 5 km. German translations are confused because most use of the German word 'Meile' these days is to translate the English 'mile'. Meile used -at least sometimes- to mean longer distances in German - in fact, around 4.8 km I remember two English students who were most annoyed on arrival in Erlangen to discover that Nuremberg was much further away than they thought - they'd read the distance in 'Meilen' in an old German source and assumed the units were English miles. > > - FATHOM is translated as ... > "Klafter", which is an old german measure spanning the > distance of (regionally different) 1.7 to 2.9 meters. > That's not very exact. How long is the english "fathom"? Six feet. > > - FURLONG is translated as ... > "Achtelmeile" (= eight of a mile), that would be approx. > 200 meters. Is this correct or is there some other poetic > "furlong"? The furlong has always been an eighth of a mile; though of course that varied according to the length of the mile! > > - ELL ... suppose this will mean the "english ell" 1,1143m? Presumably. > (the inventor of this measure must have been rather large, > having such an ell.) > The german "ell" is, however, of totally different length > (little less than 2 ft.) > > Thanks for any help! > > Greetings, > Klaus Grüße, Andrew ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:26:20 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 34 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1014931581 2685 132.236.86.124 (28 Feb 2002 21:26:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2002 21:26:21 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80121 In article , "Andrew Woode" wrote: > German translations are confused because most use of the > German word 'Meile' these days is to translate the English > 'mile'. > Meile used -at least sometimes- to mean longer distances in German > - in fact, around 4.8 km Some of the many "miles" of Europe: English: 1.609km French: 1.949km German: 7.586km (famous for long miles) Russian: 1.067km (although the verst might not "really" be a "mile") Spanish: 1.393km Portuguese: 1.739km Irish: 2.048km Italian: 1.489km Scottish: 1.814km Swedish: 10.689km?? (my source may be in error) Roman: 1.478km Note that these are gleaned from all manner of sources of various reliability. But looking at them shows just how it is that continental Europe was willing to adopt the ancestor of the SI, even if the French came up with it. The UK could get by for some time after having standardized away Scottish and Irish measures, and the USA is large enough in and of itself to simply ignore everybody else. -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:27:38 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 17 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3C7E7AAE.3E01F36C@ThisIsFake.fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1014931658 2685 132.236.86.124 (28 Feb 2002 21:27:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2002 21:27:38 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80124 In article <3C7E7AAE.3E01F36C@ThisIsFake.fk>, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Is the English inch supposed to be based on the outer joint of the > thumb as is the Danish "tomme" (I don't remember right off if it's > supposed to be the width or the length, but the Danish "tomme" > equals 2.616 cm)? The English inch is named for being 1/12 of the English foot, just like the English ounce is named for being 1/12 of the English pound. What? I never said it had to make any sense! -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.109.100.252 From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Message-ID: <3c7ece61.2838002@news.ed.shawcable.net> References: <3C7E7AAE.3E01F36C@ThisIsFake.fk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:41:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1014943294 24.70.95.207 (Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:41:34 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:41:34 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80254 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:27:38 -0500, "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote, in part: >The English inch is named for being 1/12 of the English foot, just like >the English ounce is named for being 1/12 of the English pound. >What? I never said it had to make any sense! Well, while the English avoirdupois ounce is 1/16 of the 7000 grain English avoirdupois pound (the regular 453.94 gram one), the English 480 grain troy ounce is 1/12 of the English troy pound... as I once explained patiently to a Saudi visiting professor, who was wondering why the price of gold didn't seem to convert properly from dollars per gram to dollars per ounce. And yes, both words derive from the Latin 'uncia'. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.109.100.252 From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Message-ID: <3c7ecf14.3016221@news.ed.shawcable.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 9 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:42:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1014943357 24.70.95.207 (Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:42:37 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:42:37 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80251 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:26:20 -0500, "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote, in part: >Russian: 1.067km (although the verst might not "really" be a "mile") I thought a verst was more like a league - three miles. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:44:23 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 28 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3C7EB342.B90F4E37@ThisIsFake.fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1014943463 17600 132.236.86.124 (1 Mar 2002 00:44:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2002 00:44:23 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80128 In article <3C7EB342.B90F4E37@ThisIsFake.fk>, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Modern Swedish: 10.000 km Reminds me of the German expedient of redefining the _pfund_ to be exactly 0.5kg. If the US government had been serious about metrication, we'd have done something similar, and you'd see the following US units: Foot: 30cm, exactly. Inch: 2.5 cm Yard: 3 feet, 0.9meters Gallon: 4 liters Pound: 0.5kg Okay, so it's a little clumsy, but it's cleaner than what we have. > One of the most annoying differences are due to the difference in > US and Imperial gallons - when you're used to wondering how many Blame the UK! The US stayed with the gallons we had inherited from them. (Of course, they gave us two incompatible gallons, but whatever.) -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:52:19 -0800 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c20.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80298 > - LEAGUE is translatet as ... > a) "Meile" (=mile) in a poetic sense (which I think isn't > meant, because Tolkien also writes of MILES in other > context) > b) the distance of approx 4.8 kilometers three to six kilometers > - FATHOM is translated as ... > "Klafter", which is an old german measure spanning the > distance of (regionally different) 1.7 to 2.9 meters. > That's not very exact. How long is the english "fathom"? with arms full outstretched (like a cruxification) distance from finger tip to finger tip about the same as a persons height > - FURLONG is translated as ... > "Achtelmeile" (= eight of a mile), that would be approx. > 200 meters. Is this correct or is there some other poetic > "furlong"? a furrows length > - ELL ... suppose this will mean the "english ell" 1,1143m? > (the inventor of this measure must have been rather large, > having such an ell.) > The german "ell" is, however, of totally different length > (little less than 2 ft.) about two cubits loop a rope around your forearm from palm to elbow the length of the loop ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: David Dermott Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Lines: 35 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:44:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.177.93.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ns.sympatico.ca X-Trace: sapphire.mtt.net 1014993867 142.177.93.65 (Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:44:27 AST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:44:27 AST Organization: Sympatico-Subscriber Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!News.Dal.Ca!sapphire.mtt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80344 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Andrew Woode wrote: > German translations are confused because most use of the > German word 'Meile' these days is to translate the English > 'mile'. > Meile used -at least sometimes- to mean longer distances in German > - in fact, around 4.8 km In Sweden and Norway is is very common today to use the term "mil" to mean 10 km (historically 1 mil was slightly longer than 10 km). It is often translated as "mile" in English. Often, I've had people in Sweden and Norway say to me something like: "It's only 12 more miles to Motala" ( meaning 120 km) I've been trying to read Norwegian Folktales by Asbjørnsen and Moe, in Norwegian. ("De Tre Bukkene Bruse" is easy , but some of the others are much harder :-) In the English translations of those tales, "mil" is sometimes translated as "league" and sometimes as "mile". Often the units just refer to a vague but large distance. eg. "The castle lies many leagues (or miles ) away" Also "alen" is often translated as "ell". eg "the ugly princess had a nose 3 ells long". I think the old Norwegian alen was about 63 cm (2 Norwegian "fot") -- David Dermott , Wolfville Ridge, Nova Scotia, Canada email: dermott@ns.sympatico.ca WWW pages: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/dermott/ ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:39:41 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 19 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1014996936 24523 132.236.86.124 (1 Mar 2002 15:35:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2002 15:35:36 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80130 In article , mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote: > with arms full outstretched (like a cruxification) distance from > finger tip to finger tip > about the same as a persons height It should be noted that "definitions" like this actually were not used in the majority of Europe after the reign of Charlemagne. Instead, his great standardization was rather widely adopted, albeit with adaptation and alteration as it spread. By the 1200s, no legal mesures in England had such a "definition" as presented above. -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:42:57 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 22 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3C7E7AAE.3E01F36C@ThisIsFake.fk> <3c7ece61.2838002@news.ed.shawcable.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1014997132 24523 132.236.86.124 (1 Mar 2002 15:38:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2002 15:38:52 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80123 In article <3c7ece61.2838002@news.ed.shawcable.net>, jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:27:38 -0500, "Bryan J. Maloney" > wrote, in part: > > >The English inch is named for being 1/12 of the English foot, just like > >the English ounce is named for being 1/12 of the English pound. > > >What? I never said it had to make any sense! > > Well, while the English avoirdupois ounce is 1/16 of the 7000 grain > English avoirdupois pound (the regular 453.94 gram one), the English > 480 grain troy ounce is 1/12 of the English troy pound... And then there's the Tower Pound (11.25 oz Troy), the Scottish Pound (16 oz Troy), and the London Trade Pound (15 oz Troy, and not very popular). -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:01:32 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 20 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3C7F9F0C.BEEFC758@ThisIsFake.fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1015002091 29673 132.236.86.124 (1 Mar 2002 17:01:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2002 17:01:31 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80126 In article <3C7F9F0C.BEEFC758@ThisIsFake.fk>, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Now believe me - we don't want to get into a comparison of weights, > areas etc. on top of the lengths - this is sufficient to confuse anyone Actually, I DO want to get into such comparisons. Traditional metrology is a subject that I like delving into from time to time. What I found to be interesting is that the traditional Japanese system is DECIMAL but does NOT use units identical to the metric system, thus demolishing claims made by some metrication advocates that there is somehow something inherently more "rational" about the fundamental SI units (m, kg, s) than about any other system--then they jabber on about decimal subunits. -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.109.100.252 From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Message-ID: <3c7fc678.417828@news.ed.shawcable.net> References: <3C7EB342.B90F4E37@ThisIsFake.fk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 18:19:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1015006748 24.70.95.207 (Fri, 01 Mar 2002 11:19:08 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 11:19:08 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80234 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:44:23 -0500, "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote, in part: >Reminds me of the German expedient of redefining the _pfund_ to be >exactly 0.5kg. If the US government had been serious about metrication, >we'd have done something similar, and you'd see the following US units: > >Foot: 30cm, exactly. >Inch: 2.5 cm >Yard: 3 feet, 0.9meters >Gallon: 4 liters >Pound: 0.5kg That would be confusing. Specifications would have to indicate whether they were in old units or new units. There are many activities in which precise measurement is essential, and at one time they were carried out in non-metric units. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: Ell Jay Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 21:25:43 -0600 Organization: Completely Un-organized Message-ID: <3C804637.82C59D95@sasktel.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en]C-SYMPA (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-CA MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80134 Klaus Drechsler wrote: > - ELL ... You called? ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 20:17:51 -0800 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c72.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80293 In article , "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > In article , > mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote: > > > with arms full outstretched (like a cruxification) distance from > > finger tip to finger tip > > about the same as a persons height > > It should be noted that "definitions" like this actually were not used > in the majority of Europe after the reign of Charlemagne. Instead, his the shire not only predated charlemagne but also david solomon and ramses ###### From: Bryan Maloney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: 4 Mar 2002 04:40:33 GMT Organization: Flarg Wa Zoo Lines: 23 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com) Message-ID: References: <3C7EB342.B90F4E37@ThisIsFake.fk> <3c7fc678.417828@news.ed.shawcable.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1015216833 25130 24.58.37.210 (4 Mar 2002 04:40:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 04:40:33 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80616 jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) wrote in news:3c7fc678.417828@news.ed.shawcable.net: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:44:23 -0500, "Bryan J. Maloney" > wrote, in part: > >>Reminds me of the German expedient of redefining the _pfund_ to be >>exactly 0.5kg. If the US government had been serious about metrication, >>we'd have done something similar, and you'd see the following US units: >> >>Foot: 30cm, exactly. >>Inch: 2.5 cm >>Yard: 3 feet, 0.9meters >>Gallon: 4 liters >>Pound: 0.5kg > > That would be confusing. Specifications would have to indicate whether > they were in old units or new units. There are many activities in > which precise measurement is essential, and at one time they were > carried out in non-metric units. Evidently, Germans must be smarter than you are. They had no problem redefining the "Pfund" (pound) to equal exactly 500g. ###### From: Bryan Maloney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: 4 Mar 2002 04:41:17 GMT Organization: Flarg Wa Zoo Lines: 22 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1015216877 25130 24.58.37.210 (4 Mar 2002 04:41:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 04:41:17 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80631 mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote in news:mair_fheal-0103022017510001@c72.ppp.tsoft.com: > In article , > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > >> In article , >> mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote: >> >> > with arms full outstretched (like a cruxification) distance from >> > finger tip to finger tip about the same as a persons height >> >> It should be noted that "definitions" like this actually were not used >> in the majority of Europe after the reign of Charlemagne. Instead, >> his > > the shire not only predated charlemagne > but also david solomon and ramses > The Shire did not exist until the 1920s, I would say, maybe a decade earlier. ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:53:19 -0800 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.249.90.70!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c15.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80686 In article , Bryan Maloney wrote: > mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote in > news:mair_fheal-0103022017510001@c72.ppp.tsoft.com: > > > In article , > > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > > > >> In article , > >> mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote: > >> > >> > with arms full outstretched (like a cruxification) distance from > >> > finger tip to finger tip about the same as a persons height > >> > >> It should be noted that "definitions" like this actually were not used > >> in the majority of Europe after the reign of Charlemagne. Instead, > >> his > > > > the shire not only predated charlemagne > > but also david solomon and ramses > > > > The Shire did not exist until the 1920s, I would say, maybe a decade > earlier. that means the war of the rings will occur in about 3360 ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.109.100.252 From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Message-ID: <3c833081.11922141@news.ed.shawcable.net> References: <3C7EB342.B90F4E37@ThisIsFake.fk> <3c7fc678.417828@news.ed.shawcable.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:28:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1015230519 24.70.95.207 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:28:39 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:28:39 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80603 On 4 Mar 2002 04:40:33 GMT, Bryan Maloney wrote, in part: >Evidently, Germans must be smarter than you are. They had no problem >redefining the "Pfund" (pound) to equal exactly 500g. When did they do that, and did they have a lot of mechanical equipment specified in their old system? If the pound were ONLY used in the U.S. for selling butter and meat and so on, sure it could be redefined. But if it's used for specifying boiler pressures, that's another kettle of fish. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: Klaus Drechsler Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:52:31 +0000 (UTC) Organization: University of Bremen Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3C804637.82C59D95@sasktel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.102.72.12 X-Trace: f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de 1015235551 12826 134.102.72.12 (4 Mar 2002 09:52:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:52:31 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news.zfn.uni-bremen.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80658 Ell Jay schrieb: > Klaus Drechsler wrote: > >> - ELL ... > > You called? :o) Are you about 3 ft. 9" and english...? If not - sorry, didn't speak of you! Bye, Klaus ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:33:36 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3C804637.82C59D95@sasktel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1015238133 16587 192.168.46.136 (4 Mar 2002 10:35:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 10:35:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80627 In article , Klaus Drechsler (kad@uni-bremen.de) says... > Ell Jay schrieb: > > > Klaus Drechsler wrote: > > > >> - ELL ... > > > > You called? > > :o) > Are you about 3 ft. 9" and english...? If not - sorry, didn't speak of > you! I didn't know Hobbits were foten called Ells. -- Donald Shepherd BALROG: Screw Gandalf! Where’s this Ralph Bakshi guy? - http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=534018 ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:18:48 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80684 Bryan Maloney wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>> In article , >>> mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote: >> the shire not only predated charlemagne >> but also david solomon and ramses >> > >The Shire did not exist until the 1920s, I would say, maybe a decade >earlier. The PP was pointing out that _all_ of the matter Middle-earth was supposed to be taking place before our present recorded history. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:58:05 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 24 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3C7EB342.B90F4E37@ThisIsFake.fk> <3c7fc678.417828@news.ed.shawcable.net> <3c833081.11922141@news.ed.shawcable.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1015271884 5471 132.236.86.124 (4 Mar 2002 19:58:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 19:58:04 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80438 In article <3c833081.11922141@news.ed.shawcable.net>, jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > On 4 Mar 2002 04:40:33 GMT, Bryan Maloney wrote, > in part: > > >Evidently, Germans must be smarter than you are. They had no problem > >redefining the "Pfund" (pound) to equal exactly 500g. > > When did they do that, and did they have a lot of mechanical equipment > specified in their old system? They did it during the middle 1800s, if I recall aright, so they did have boilers and the like specified in the old system. But it was also the Germans and not Americans we're talking about, here. So even if it were possible, I'd be more likely to trust my life to Germans doing it than to Americans. My countrymen are good at many things, but as NASA has taught the world at least twice, meticulousness might not be one of them. -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:58:32 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 22 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3C804637.82C59D95@sasktel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1015271912 5471 132.236.86.124 (4 Mar 2002 19:58:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 19:58:32 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80442 In article , Klaus Drechsler wrote: > Ell Jay schrieb: > > > Klaus Drechsler wrote: > > > >> - ELL ... > > > > You called? > > :o) > Are you about 3 ft. 9" and english...? If not - sorry, didn't speak of Reminds me of a girl I knew in college.... (Okay, so she was 4'9"...) -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:00:59 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 27 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1015272059 5471 132.236.86.124 (4 Mar 2002 20:00:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 20:00:59 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80426 In article , qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > Bryan Maloney wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>> In article , > >>> mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) wrote: > >> the shire not only predated charlemagne > >> but also david solomon and ramses > >> > > > >The Shire did not exist until the 1920s, I would say, maybe a decade > >earlier. > > The PP was pointing out that _all_ of the matter Middle-earth was > supposed to be taking place before our present recorded history. Ah, but let us also not forget that they had the benefit of Eldar Loremasters and the rulership of the Numenorians who inherited their weights and measures, therefrom. I can't see Eldar Loremasters using silly and idiosyncratic ways to define units. Indeed, I could see them trying to get everything down to one fundamental unit or definition method. They probably out-SI'ed the SI. -- America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman? ###### From: Ell Jay Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leagues, ells, fathoms and furlongs Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:38:03 -0600 Organization: Completely Un-organized Message-ID: <3C844BAB.A47E4382@sasktel.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en]C-SYMPA (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-CA MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3C804637.82C59D95@sasktel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:80450 Klaus Drechsler wrote: > Ell Jay schrieb: > > > Klaus Drechsler wrote: > > > >> - ELL ... > > > > You called? > > :o) > Are you about 3 ft. 9" and english...? If not - sorry, didn't speak of > you! 6 ft. 1" and Canadian... 'Sokay, happens all the time! :)