From: "Brett Evill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:20:45 +1100 Organization: unaffiliated Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridium.webone.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1013757572 17417 210.8.44.3 (15 Feb 2002 07:19:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 07:19:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-ctb0396.webone.com.au X-Original-Trace: 15 Feb 2002 18:19:28 +1000, dial-ctb0396.webone.com.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!iridium.webone.com.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77625 G'day "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see.But anyway, if it does go well there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - If we get a chance you and me'll slip off and set up on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." "Ah!", said Shagrat. "Like old times." . . . . . "... there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege. ..." * * * * * At the time when Shagrat and Gorbag have this conversation there have been big bosses in Mordor continuously for what, 1040 years? In Minas Morgul for 1020? And the 'Great Siege' would be either the siege of Barad-dur in the War of the Last Alliance 3020 years ago, or the Siege of Angband 6460 years ago. How old are these guys? Or how good is their oral tradition? -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: 15 Feb 2002 04:45:10 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0202150445.72b60a42@posting.google.com> References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013777111 14557 127.0.0.1 (15 Feb 2002 12:45:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:45:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77785 "Brett Evill" wrote in message news:<3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au>... > G'day > > "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see.But anyway, if it does go well > there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - If we get a chance > you and me'll slip off and set up on our own with a few trusty lads, > somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." > > "Ah!", said Shagrat. "Like old times." > > . . . . . > > "... there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any > other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the > Great Siege. ..." > > * * * * * > > At the time when Shagrat and Gorbag have this conversation there have > been big bosses in Mordor continuously for what, 1040 years? In Minas > Morgul for 1020? And the 'Great Siege' would be either the siege of > Barad-dur in the War of the Last Alliance 3020 years ago, or the Siege > of Angband 6460 years ago. > > How old are these guys? Or how good is their oral tradition? I think they speak of Angband. Thus they are akin to Elves. Thais is what caused Tolkien problems when he thought that perhaps Orcs were related to humans. I don't think he ever sorted it out. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1013789148 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:05:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:05:48 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: wlab8-22254-s4-3383@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 29b6c110 05f377c3 adfec8a8 39451059 7684c259 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:05:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.135.12.170.MISMATCH!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77669 Quoth "Brett Evill" in article <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au>: > "... there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any > other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since > the Great Siege. ..." > At the time when Shagrat and Gorbag have this conversation there > have been big bosses in Mordor continuously for what, 1040 years? This is a classic question, and one that we don't have any really satisfying answer to. Another point often raised as evidence for extremely old Orcs is the Goblins' immediate recognition of "Beater" and "Biter" after capturing the Dwarves in _The Hobbit_. However, there are substantial arguments on the other side as well, and Tolkien never came to a firm decision on the nature of Orcs at all. You can find some very interesting discussions of the topic by searching for it on Google Groups. Now that I think of it, I probably ought to add at least a comment on this issue to the Orcs question in the FAQ. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:30:38 -0800 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> <38aeacaa.0202150445.72b60a42@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c42.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77750 > > "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see.But anyway, if it does go well > > there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - If we get a chance > > you and me'll slip off and set up on our own with a few trusty lads, > > somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." > > > > "Ah!", said Shagrat. "Like old times." humans often wax prolific about the good old days (that is when they arent berating youngsters about how easy their life has become) but often the good old days predate even the oldsters its possible they were talking about what they had heard from older orcs rather than what they had themselves experienced ###### From: ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: 15 Feb 2002 09:42:59 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.201.172.124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013794979 22920 127.0.0.1 (15 Feb 2002 17:42:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 17:42:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77738 "Brett Evill" wrote in message news:<3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au>... > At the time when Shagrat and Gorbag have this conversation there have > been big bosses in Mordor continuously for what, 1040 years? In Minas > Morgul for 1020? And the 'Great Siege' would be either the siege of > Barad-dur in the War of the Last Alliance 3020 years ago, or the Siege > of Angband 6460 years ago. > > How old are these guys? Or how good is their oral tradition? I'd always assumed that these statements showed that Orcs had a very good grasp of history -- whether oral or written tradition. I don't see why Shagrat and Gorbag had to have been alive as of the Siege of Angband to be able to talk about it as if they'd experienced it; after all, someone sufficently knowledgable about history can often speak of various events in the past -- although seldom this distant of a past in the real world, where things actually change over time :) -- as if they happened to him. ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:23:43 Message-ID: <1013801023.21347.0.nnrp-13.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013801023 nnrp-13:21347 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: skim 0.8.4 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77807 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >This is a classic question, and one that we don't have any really >satisfying answer to. Another point often raised as evidence for >extremely old Orcs is the Goblins' immediate recognition of "Beater" >and "Biter" after capturing the Dwarves in _The Hobbit_. While we're on the subject: "And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." It could be read as suggesting that Gorbag had himself been executed by a Nazgul, and then reincarnated; or that he'd talked to Orcs to whom it had been done. -- ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html -------------------- John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?" |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show :-------------------------------------------------------------------------) ###### From: Tlaloc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:06:31 +1000 Organization: Netspace Internet Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C6DF6E7.7BC93131@netspace.net.au> References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> <1013801023.21347.0.nnrp-13.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-t1-17.sydney.netspace.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: otis.netspace.net.au 1013836020 37477 203.33.166.17 (16 Feb 2002 05:07:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@otis.netspace.net.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 05:07:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.xtra.co.nz!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.netspace.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77895 John Elliott wrote: > While we're on the subject: "And they skin the body off you as soon as > look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." > > It could be read as suggesting that Gorbag had himself been executed by a > Nazgul, and then reincarnated; or that he'd talked to Orcs to whom it had > been done. Or that orcs had religious beliefs on the afterlife that hinged on the condition of their body when they died. Bluntly I would say that this fear expressed by Gorbag was an example of propaganda working the orc society, rather than personal reminiscence. After all, there are millions of orcs, so why bring one back? tlaloc ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old are Shagrat and Gorbag? Date: 16 Feb 2002 02:13:06 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.19.10.159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013854386 12608 127.0.0.1 (16 Feb 2002 10:13:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2002 10:13:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77994 "Brett Evill" wrote in message news:<3c6cb680@iridium.webone.com.au>... > At the time when Shagrat and Gorbag have this conversation there have > been big bosses in Mordor continuously for what, 1040 years? In Minas > Morgul for 1020? And the 'Great Siege' would be either the siege of > Barad-dur in the War of the Last Alliance 3020 years ago, or the Siege > of Angband 6460 years ago. > > How old are these guys? Or how good is their oral tradition? Their oral tradition is pretty good. I'm operating under the assumption that there has been a great summoning of orcs since the Battle of the Five Armies and the expulsion of the Necromancer from Dol Guldur, that free-lance marauding goblins like S. and G. have been working for a real Master only since then, the re-erection of Barad-Dur, which is about sixty years. The Great Siege, I presume, means the last year of the Second Age, and no, I'm sure they hadn't been spawned so long ago. There are many references to times when "orcs breed in the mountains", and to a decline in population, first after the Dwarf-Orc Wars, then after the Battle of Five Armies. There's been plenty of time to reproduce, however they manage that. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com