From: graf@arduin-delos.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Organization: none Message-ID: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:43:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.90.39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1013704999 148.63.90.39 (Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:43:19 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:43:19 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newspeer.cts.com!feed.news.sonic.net!typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77814 I know that C. S. Lewis used the term 'sci-fi' for his own work and iirc for the popular USA fiction in that genre in the 1940's. Did Tolkien and others of his circle use it also? Graf ###### From: jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:39:04 GMT Organization: A.B.T-C Thought Police K-9 squad Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3c6bf5e7.49010152@news.vt.edu> References: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hc65243c6.dhcp.vt.edu X-Trace: solaris.cc.vt.edu 1013708177 3061 198.82.67.198 (14 Feb 2002 17:36:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:36:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77554 On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:43:19 GMT, graf@arduin-delos.com wrote: >I know that C. S. Lewis used the term 'sci-fi' for his own work and iirc >for the popular USA fiction in that genre in the 1940's. > >Did Tolkien and others of his circle use it also? The terms most commonly used by Tolkien were myth and fairy tale. IIRC, one of his works on the nature of fairy tales had some derogatory things to say about science fiction. ###### From: "Rotwang" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:36:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.118.77.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telenet.be X-Trace: hebe.telenet-ops.be 1013726177 213.118.77.194 (Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:36:17 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:36:17 CET Organization: Telenet Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!ossa.telenet-ops.be!hebe.telenet-ops.be.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77734 wrote in message news:2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com... > I know that C. S. Lewis used the term 'sci-fi' for his own work and iirc > for the popular USA fiction in that genre in the 1940's. > > Did Tolkien and others of his circle use it also? > > > Graf About the terms ... I understand that the term "Sci-Fi" was coined by Forrest J Ackerman. Now the writer Isaac Asimov hated the term feeling it described the trasy stuff being made and always insisted on the term "S-F" ###### From: "LPetrazickis" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:17:41 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.99.124.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprint.ca X-Trace: newscontent-01.sprint.ca 1013746670 149.99.124.1 (Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:17:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:17:50 EST Organization: Sprint Canada Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!HME1-2.newsfeed.sprint.ca!newscontent-01.sprint.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77759 wrote in message news:2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com... > I know that C. S. Lewis used the term 'sci-fi' for his own work and iirc > for the popular USA fiction in that genre in the 1940's. > > Did Tolkien and others of his circle use it also? > > > Graf Where exactly is the "sci" in LotR? P.S. Not that there's that much "sci" in regular "sci-fi". I recommend early Larry Niven for an acceptable dosage.:) Leons Petrazickis import java.lang.disclaimer; ###### From: chrisbishop@netscapeonline.co.uk (Scooby) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Date: 15 Feb 2002 08:51:28 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: <69107472.0202150851.c898248@posting.google.com> References: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.205.123.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013791891 21447 127.0.0.1 (15 Feb 2002 16:51:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 16:51:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77720 "LPetrazickis" wrote in message news:... > wrote in message > news:2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com... > > I know that C. S. Lewis used the term 'sci-fi' for his own work and iirc > > for the popular USA fiction in that genre in the 1940's. > > > > Did Tolkien and others of his circle use it also? > > > > > > Graf > > Where exactly is the "sci" in LotR? > > P.S. Not that there's that much "sci" in regular "sci-fi". I recommend early > Larry Niven for an acceptable dosage.:) > There's no "sci" in LotR. C S Lewis wrote both fantasy (the Narnia books) and sci-fi (the Perelandra trilogy). All are drenched in religious allegory and chiefly concerned with moral choices, but interesting reading nevertheless. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" is not true. Magic, being fictional, is a product of the human mind, and is therefore congenial to it. Technology has to conform to the real world, or it won't work. Arthur C. Clarke has much to answer for. Larry Niven (any period) rules! ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:14:51 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> <69107472.0202150851.c898248@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.c6 X-Server-Date: 15 Feb 2002 19:14:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77798 Scooby wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >C S Lewis wrote both fantasy (the Narnia books) and sci-fi (the >Perelandra trilogy). The Perelandra trilogy? Science fiction?? Surely you jest! The science in /Out of the Silent Planet/ is ludicrous; fortunately most of it about the voyage and doesn't spoil the middle of the book. In /Perelandra/ Lewis quite wisely abandoned any attempt at a "scientific" voyage. And /That Hideous Strength/ is described by its author, on the title page, as a fairy tale. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The terms 'sf' and 'sci-fi' Date: 16 Feb 2002 00:04:22 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6ud6z6pcsp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <2upn6u42latqh55kk81p2kgc9omccdbmhn@4ax.com> <69107472.0202150851.c898248@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1013814263 407 10.0.3.2 (15 Feb 2002 23:04:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 23:04:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77857 chrisbishop@netscapeonline.co.uk (Scooby) writes: > "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" > is not true. It is actually very true. From the observers POV. > Magic, being fictional, In the present interpretation of the present (see below) world. > is a product of the human mind, So are Warp-Drives and Transporters. Both them and magic are products of the authors mind. But if you leave the story-external world and enter the story and look at it from the characters stroy-internal POV you will get it. Magic is something that acts on the world, without the average viewer being able to recognize an visible mechanism. Dito any sufficiently advanced technology has the exactly same effect: the viewer can not recognize (as in understanding) an mechanism. To an medieval human the appearing and disappearing segments on an LCD digital watch would be magical. No mechanism known to him produced such appearence from nowhere and diappearence without trace. > and is therefore congenial to it. Technology has to conform to the > real world, or it won't work. It has to confirm to the authors chosen _definition_ of real world. I.e. what interpretation of the laws of nature he has decided to put into it. > Arthur C. Clarke has much to answer for. In this case he has a lot going for him. He understood the psychology of the un-initiated (to magic or technology) viewer. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery