From: lazarus Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:09:51 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-099.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76835 Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, why not? -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com ###### From: robin@ratnest.demon.co.uk (Bob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:08:56 GMT Organization: self Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ratnest.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ratnest.demon.co.uk:158.152.144.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013342936 nnrp-10:18227 NO-IDENT ratnest.demon.co.uk:158.152.144.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ratnest.demon.co.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76811 In article , lazarus wrote: > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > why not? > > I suppose human females just weren't any match for elven beauty. Bob ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:24:31 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o048.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013343918 23355 212.205.252.48 (10 Feb 2002 12:25:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:25:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76792 "lazarus" wrote in message news:m5ec6usj4b2nfgdanl25im1sl0u7ndfh6u@4ax.com... > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > why not? Andreth and Aegnor had an affair it seems, but it didn't work out. Aris Katsaris ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:12:39 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.51 X-Server-Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:10:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76879 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >"lazarus" wrote in message >news:m5ec6usj4b2nfgdanl25im1sl0u7ndfh6u@4ax.com... >> Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, >> why not? > >Andreth and Aegnor had an affair it seems, but it didn't work out. But reading the Athrabeth in HoME X (Morgoth's Ring), I am left with the impression that they never got even to the hand-holding stage, let along, er, "coupling". Is your reading different? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3C66D8F4.DB8F04F4@acm.org> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:33:07 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.12 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1013373142 24939 207.199.164.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!feeder.qis.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76880 Bob wrote: > > In article , lazarus > wrote: > > > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > > why not? > I suppose human females just weren't any match for elven beauty. Neither are human males... -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: 10 Feb 2002 22:37:50 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6uofix6ms1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C66D8F4.DB8F04F4@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1013377070 1502 10.0.3.2 (10 Feb 2002 21:37:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 2002 21:37:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76886 Glenn Holliday writes: > Bob wrote: > > > > In article , lazarus > > wrote: > > > > > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > > > why not? > > I suppose human females just weren't any match for elven beauty. And why else should any sane elf man put up with the trouble of an human woman (losing her forever at death or having to lose all his family)? > Neither are human males... But they may be stronger, more valiant, more impressive, more exotic. Some women like such things, particularly bored and over-protected rulers daughters, in an rebellious mood. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: robin@ratnest.demon.co.uk (Bob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:34:35 GMT Organization: self Message-ID: References: <3C66D8F4.DB8F04F4@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ratnest.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ratnest.demon.co.uk:158.152.144.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013380475 nnrp-01:26095 NO-IDENT ratnest.demon.co.uk:158.152.144.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ratnest.demon.co.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77057 In article <3C66D8F4.DB8F04F4@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org wrote: > Bob wrote: > > > > In article , lazarus > > wrote: > > > > > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > > > why not? > > I suppose human females just weren't any match for elven beauty. > > Neither are human males... > No but I imagine that the elf women might have fancied a bit of rough as quite a lot of high society dames do today. Bob ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 01:06:45 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q129.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013382451 16802 212.205.254.129 (10 Feb 2002 23:07:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:07:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76991 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.16d09e407219453c98cedc@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >"lazarus" wrote in message > >news:m5ec6usj4b2nfgdanl25im1sl0u7ndfh6u@4ax.com... > >> Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > >> why not? > > > >Andreth and Aegnor had an affair it seems, but it didn't work out. > > But reading the Athrabeth in HoME X (Morgoth's Ring), I am left with > the impression that they never got even to the hand-holding stage, > let along, er, "coupling". Is your reading different? No, no... As I said it didn't work out - I didn't mean it was a 'coupling', except in that they were a couple for a while... :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Sandra Macke" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:46:36 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cs303-17.spmodem.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp3.u.washington.edu 1013392001 33928 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77032 "lazarus" wrote in message news:m5ec6usj4b2nfgdanl25im1sl0u7ndfh6u@4ax.com... > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > why not? I ponder this question every so often. I see it part of the hero-quest motif: the bride as a prize of the quest. Would Aragorn really have bothered reclaiming Gondor, if Elrond had not made it a marriage condition? If Arwen was of the race of man, I do not think her father could have made such demands on Isildur's heir. Another thing I notice is that the majority of women who do get significant roles in ME literature are those who marry "beneath" them. Arwen (elf ) = Aragorn (man) Melian (Maia) = Elwe (elf) Idril (elf) = Tuor (man) - though I do like that he became a part of her culture and sailed West with her. Luthian (elf) = Beren (man) Galadriel (Noldor elf) = Celeborn (Sindar elf) - based on the Sil as I have not read HoME. Nienor and Turin (who got the attention of the elf Gwindor) were equals but I view that story more like greek tragedy then hero-quest. Alas I do not know of a female quest tale in Tolkien's work. I personally think Eowyn should have bagged an elf-prince for her work on Pelennor fields, even though I like Faramir. Eomer got an elf-maid if I remember correctly. I'll stop rambling now. Sandy ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 04:16:25 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b177.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013393831 20419 212.205.219.177 (11 Feb 2002 02:17:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:17:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!asynchrone-stat!deine.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76983 "Sandra Macke" wrote in message news:a477q1$1148$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu... > > Eomer got an elf-maid if I remember correctly. No, he married Imrahil's daughter. Don't remember her name. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Sandra Macke" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:09:50 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cs306-29.spmodem.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp3.u.washington.edu 1013400596 29506 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77044 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:a479j6$ju3$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > "Sandra Macke" wrote in message > news:a477q1$1148$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu... > > > > Eomer got an elf-maid if I remember correctly. > > No, he married Imrahil's daughter. Don't remember her name. > > Aris Katsaris You're right. He married Lothiriel. Sorry. While digging for the name, I figured why I was thinking along those line. I was mixing Eomer with the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. Sandy ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: 10 Feb 2002 21:26:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.68.146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013405198 24247 127.0.0.1 (11 Feb 2002 05:26:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 05:26:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77142 lazarus wrote in message news:... > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > why not? There are none recorded. But you use the wrong word: There are no COUPLINGS in the sexual sense in which the word is usually used, at all in Tolkien. None of his characters ever feel, or act upon, sexual lust. "Pairings" may have been the word you meant to use. There are none recorded. The reason may have to do with the very nature of lust, and JRRT's profound discmfort with it. He certainly could not imagine anyone as high-minded and noble as a female having such a feeling. They just lie on their backs and think of Valinor. Ergo, a human male can "perform" upon an elven female, but elven males do not engage in sex in that way, and human females probably cannot conceive, or even cohabit, with the meditative elven male way of doing things. Oh, and Eomer's wife is named Lothiriel, but she's no more elven than Faramir is. Just of good family with a soupcon of elven blood. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:37:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.105.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1013416624 216.175.105.121 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:37:04 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:37:04 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:37:04 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76950 Sandra Macke wrote: > Alas I do not know of a female quest tale in Tolkien's work. Luthien's quest to free Beren follows the classic "save the enchanted prince" female quest model (The Frog Prince, The Snow Queen, Cupid & Psyche, etc) pretty well, although it's only part of her story. And Morgoth ought to be female. ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 Message-ID: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 11 Feb 2002 11:14:28 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1013422468 212.130.21.178 (11 Feb 2002 11:14:28 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wineasy.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76924 "Sandra Macke" wrote in message news:a47g6k$sq2$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu... > "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message > news:a479j6$ju3$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > > > "Sandra Macke" wrote in message > > news:a477q1$1148$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu... > > > > > > Eomer got an elf-maid if I remember correctly. > > > > No, he married Imrahil's daughter. Don't remember her name. > > You're right. He married Lothiriel. Sorry. While digging for the name, I > figured why I was thinking along those line. I was mixing Eomer with the > story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. There are some strong indications in the description of Imrahil and Legolas' greeting of him that there is at least one unrecorded coupling of Elf and Man. Imrahil is described as having Elven blood, but /not/ of the three recorded couplings (Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril and Aragorn & Arwen). Elsewhere (in the appendices?) it says that there were only those three couplings (or does it say "marriages" - I don't have the books with me), but unless Imrahil's line is founded out of marriage, this is still contradictory to the case of Imrahil (he's said, by Legolas, to be of the people of Amrod or Nimrodel - I forget which). What are we to believe here? Is Imrahil really descended from Elves in an unrecorded coupling? Or is the description of Imrahil (and Legolas) wrong? -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things. -- Discworld scientists at work (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites) ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 04:16:43 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-667.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77151 On 10 Feb 2002 21:26:38 -0800, atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) wrote: >lazarus wrote in message news:... >> Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, >> why not? > >There are none recorded. > >But you use the wrong word: There are no COUPLINGS in the sexual sense >in which the word is usually used, at all in Tolkien. None of his >characters ever feel, or act upon, sexual lust. > >"Pairings" may have been the word you meant to use. There are none >recorded. > >The reason may have to do with the very nature of lust, and JRRT's >profound discmfort with it. He certainly could not imagine anyone as >high-minded and noble as a female having such a feeling. They just lie >on their backs and think of Valinor. Ergo, a human male can "perform" >upon an elven female, but elven males do not engage in sex in that >way, and human females probably cannot conceive, or even cohabit, with >the meditative elven male way of doing things. > >Oh, and Eomer's wife is named Lothiriel, but she's no more elven than >Faramir is. Just of good family with a soupcon of elven blood. > >Parmathule >atsarisborn@hotmail.com Thanks. That could well be it. Just always struck me as odd that it never went the other way. Next up, the Forbidden Elf/Dwarf pairing! -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:43:05 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: 85-155-11-210-cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1013435076 16256 210.11.155.85 (11 Feb 2002 13:44:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:44:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77096 In article <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se>, Troels@ThisIsFake.Fk says... > There are some strong indications in the description of Imrahil and Legolas' > greeting of him that there is at least one unrecorded coupling of Elf and > Man. > > Imrahil is described as having Elven blood, but /not/ of the three recorded > couplings (Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril and Aragorn & Arwen). > > Elsewhere (in the appendices?) it says that there were only those three > couplings (or does it say "marriages" - I don't have the books with me), > but unless Imrahil's line is founded out of marriage, this is still > contradictory > to the case of Imrahil (he's said, by Legolas, to be of the people of Amrod > or Nimrodel - I forget which). > > What are we to believe here? > Is Imrahil really descended from Elves in an unrecorded coupling? > Or is the description of Imrahil (and Legolas) wrong? For a complete coverage of this, try the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section in the Silmarillion, under Part IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn _and of Amroth King of Lorien". The most relevant part I've quoted below: "As Legolas' mention of Nimrodel shows, there was ancient Elvish port near Dol Amroth, and a small settlement of Silvan Elves there from Lórien. The legend of the prince's line was that one of the earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some versions it was indeed (evidently improbably) said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens. This latter version of the legend appears in more detailed form in a note appended to an unpublished genealogy of the line of Dol Amroth from Angelimar, the twentieth prince, father of Adrahil, father of Imrahil, prince of Dol Amroth at the time of the War of the Ring: In the tradition of his house Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth (c. Third Age 2004-2129). According to the same traditions Galador was the son of Imrazór the Númenórean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazór harboured Mithrellas, and took her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night and he saw her no more. But though Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey) it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind." -- Donald Shepherd BALROG: Screw Gandalf! Where’s this Ralph Bakshi guy? - http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=534018 ###### From: address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: 11 Feb 2002 15:23:17 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Western Ontario Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: hyphocus.csd.uwo.ca X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 1013440997 28330 129.100.11.51 (11 Feb 2002 15:23:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 15:23:17 GMT Originator: andrews@csd.uwo.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!csd.uwo.ca!andrews Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76951 In article <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se>, Troels Forchhammer wrote: >Imrahil is described as having Elven blood, but /not/ of the three recorded >couplings (Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril and Aragorn & Arwen). > >Elsewhere (in the appendices?) it says that there were only those three >couplings (or does it say "marriages" - I don't have the books with me), >but unless Imrahil's line is founded out of marriage, this is still >contradictory >to the case of Imrahil (he's said, by Legolas, to be of the people of Amrod >or Nimrodel - I forget which). I remember resolving this in my mind (don't remember how) by figuring out that there were only three couplings of Men and *High*-elves, ie. Calaquendi. We know that Luthien was considered a High-elf because Thingol was, which is in turn because he had an equivalent-to-the-two-trees experience with Melian. Idril was obviously a High-elf. Arwen was also a High-elf because she was also descended mostly from High-elves, such as Thingol and various Noldor and Vanyar. I can't remember the exact quotations, but I think Tolkien left the door open to there being many unrecorded couplings between Men and Sindar, Moriquendi, etc., such as Nimrodel, who IIRC was a Silvan Elf. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.73.180 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1013446457 ST000 64.252.73.180 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:54:17 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:54:17 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSUGW\[DRBTQBQH]]RHNO\LI[B]NQHMIQQ]ZMVMHQAVTUZ]CLNTCPFK[WDXDHV[K^FCGJCJLPF_D_NCC@FUG^Q\DINVAXSLIFXYJSSCCALP@PB@\OS@BITWAH\CQZKJMMD^SJA^NXA\GVLSRBD^M_NW_F[YLVTWIGAXAQBOATKBBQRXECDFDMQ\DZFUE@\JM Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:54:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77159 Jamie Andrews wrote ... > We know that Luthien was >considered a High-elf because Thingol was, which is in turn >because he had an equivalent-to-the-two-trees experience with >Melian. Minor nit-pick. Thingol actually went to Valinor and saw the two trees when he was taken there by Orome as one of the first three Elves. When those three elves returned to ME to lead all their people to Valinor, Thingol got lost in the woods and never made it back to Valinor. He is a valid High-Elf since he saw the light of the Trees. Trade. ###### Lines: 30 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Feb 2002 17:28:05 GMT References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Message-ID: <20020211122805.22795.00000112@mb-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77012 In article <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se>, "Troels Forchhammer" writes: >There are some strong indications in the description of Imrahil and Legolas' >greeting of him that there is at least one unrecorded coupling of Elf and >Man. It's not unrecorded. It's just not recorded in LOTR. > >Imrahil is described as having Elven blood, but /not/ of the three recorded >couplings (Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril and Aragorn & Arwen). Those were Eldar-Edain unions. >Elsewhere (in the appendices?) it says that there were only those three >couplings (or does it say "marriages" - I don't have the books with me), >but unless Imrahil's line is founded out of marriage, this is still >contradictory >to the case of Imrahil (he's said, by Legolas, to be of the people of Amrod >or Nimrodel - I forget which). > >What are we to believe here? >Is Imrahil really descended from Elves in an unrecorded coupling? >Or is the description of Imrahil (and Legolas) wrong? Or it simply means Imrahil's elven ancestor was not an Elda. Russ ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Feb 2002 17:28:05 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Message-ID: <20020211122805.22795.00000113@mb-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77013 In article , address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) writes: > I remember resolving this in my mind (don't remember how) >by figuring out that there were only three couplings of Men and >*High*-elves, ie. Calaquendi. No, in App A LOTR the statement was three 'Eldar-edain' unions. > We know that Luthien was >considered a High-elf because Thingol was, which is in turn >because he had an equivalent-to-the-two-trees experience with >Melian. Idril was obviously a High-elf. Arwen was also a >High-elf because she was also descended mostly from High-elves, >such as Thingol and various Noldor and Vanyar. > > I can't remember the exact quotations, but I think Tolkien >left the door open to there being many unrecorded couplings >between Men and Sindar, Sindar are Eldar so included in the Three. > Moriquendi, etc., such as Nimrodel, who >IIRC was a Silvan Elf. Russ ###### From: techlists@alberni.net (A. Clausen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: 11 Feb 2002 10:54:33 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <57e9d46d.0202111054.76740f5f@posting.google.com> References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.251.68.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013453675 8889 127.0.0.1 (11 Feb 2002 18:54:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 18:54:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77120 address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) wrote in message news:... >We know that Luthien was > considered a High-elf because Thingol was, which is in turn > because he had an equivalent-to-the-two-trees experience with > Melian. Actually, that is not why Thingol was counted among the Calaquendi. He was one of the three ambassadors (along with Finwe and Ingwe) to journey to Aman while the Elves were still in Cuivienen (sp? not near my books). Though he wanted to return to Aman, he was satisfied that he could see the light of the Two Trees in Melian. --- AaronC ###### From: "AC" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 03:08:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77245 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se... > "Sandra Macke" wrote in message > news:a47g6k$sq2$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu... > > "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message > > news:a479j6$ju3$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > > > > > "Sandra Macke" wrote in message > > > news:a477q1$1148$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu... > > > > > > > > Eomer got an elf-maid if I remember correctly. > > > > > > No, he married Imrahil's daughter. Don't remember her name. > > > > You're right. He married Lothiriel. Sorry. While digging for the name, > I > > figured why I was thinking along those line. I was mixing Eomer with the > > story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. > > There are some strong indications in the description of Imrahil and Legolas' > greeting of him that there is at least one unrecorded coupling of Elf and > Man. Certainly not unrecorded, though possibly somewhat legendary. Imrazor the Numenorian took one of Nimrodel's companions as his wife. She bore him one son and then fled. --- AaronC ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Lines: 67 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 Message-ID: <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 12 Feb 2002 14:26:27 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1013520387 212.130.21.178 (12 Feb 2002 14:26:27 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wineasy.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77175 "Donald Shepherd" wrote in message news:MPG.16d26768781008559897b2@news.cairns.net.au... > In article <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se>, Troels@ThisIsFake.Fk says... > > What are we to believe here? > > Is Imrahil really descended from Elves in an unrecorded coupling? > > Or is the description of Imrahil (and Legolas) wrong? > For a complete coverage of this, try the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section in > the Silmarillion, under Part IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn > _and of Amroth King of Lorien". > > The most relevant part I've quoted below: > "As Legolas' mention of Nimrodel shows, there was ancient Elvish port > near Dol Amroth, and a small settlement of Silvan Elves there from > Lórien. The legend of the prince's line was that one of the earliest > fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some versions it was indeed > (evidently improbably) said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other > tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was > lost in the upper mountain glens. > > This latter version of the legend appears in more detailed form in a note > appended to an unpublished genealogy of the line of Dol Amroth from > Angelimar, the twentieth prince, father of Adrahil, father of Imrahil, > prince of Dol Amroth at the time of the War of the Ring: > > In the tradition of his house Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken > descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth (c. Third Age 2004-2129). > According to the same traditions Galador was the son of Imrazór the > Númenórean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was > one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to > the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; > and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. > But in this tale it is said that Imrazór harboured Mithrellas, and took > her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, > Gilmith, she slipped away by night and he saw her no more. But though > Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or > the Grey) it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol > Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind." Thank you - I didn't have my books handy, and it's been a while since I last read the Silmarillion (I guess I'm in for a reading sometime soon). Elsewhere in this thread, Russ mentions that > in App A LOTR the statement was three 'Eldar-edain' unions. which is of course not as I remembered it (I remembered it as 'Elves'), but still not quite concordant with the above, as the Silvan Elves of Lothlórien were accounted among the Eldar (they started out on the Great Journey, but left it before reaching the coast - or even Beleriand). I guess the statement in App A LotR, should have read three Calaquendi - Edain unions, and that the text as it stands must then be a minor error that were never corrected. Another possibility is of course that this particular ancestor of Imrahil (Imrazór) wasn't an Edain ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk "It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?" -- (Terry Pratchett, Mort) ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:58:23 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77258 "lazarus" wrote in message news:m5ec6usj4b2nfgdanl25im1sl0u7ndfh6u@4ax.com... > Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, > why not? > > > -- > > lazarus > size matters. (well, Elven males are, after all, Fairies) ###### Lines: 43 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Feb 2002 15:09:52 GMT References: <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020212100952.19660.00000061@mb-dh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77225 In article <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se>, "Troels Forchhammer" writes: >Elsewhere in this thread, Russ mentions that >> in App A LOTR the statement was three 'Eldar-edain' unions. >which is of course not as I remembered it (I remembered it as >'Elves'), but still not quite concordant with the above, as the >Silvan Elves of Lothlórien were accounted among the Eldar >(they started out on the Great Journey, but left it before reaching >the coast - or even Beleriand). Actually, there is an ongoing debate on that topic. At the time LOTR was written, the Silvan Elves were Avari, not Eldarin Nandor. The Avarin conception was confirmed in Quendi and Eldar (c. 1958-9) which is in HOME, which also quite clearly makes the Silvans Elves Avari. In fact, it appears Tolkien was still considering Silvans as Avari as late as the 1965 or so - the publication of the Second Edition of LOTR. However, there are some later writings that shift the Silvans to Eldarin Nandor - these texts are in Unfinished Tales and a note in Of Dwarves and Men in People of Middle-earth. I have a lot of problems with the later conceptions. *Eldarin* Nandor do not fit into the definition of Silvan 'East-elves' found in LOTR; nor is the concept consistent with the three eldar-edain union issue we are discussing. While the Eldarin Nandor as Avari is apparently the latest thought on the matter, that factor, while important, standing alone is not dispositinve, in my thinking. The Silvan=Avari idea was the intent at the time of writing of LOTR, and is found in more substantial and completed post-LOTR text (i.e. Quendi and Eldar); and doesn't run into the consistency problems that Avari=Eldarin Nandor do. Others disagree and, as I said, there is a nice debate on the issue on AFT ('More Elf-Men couples") >I guess the statement in App A LotR, >should have read three Calaquendi - Edain unions, and that the text >as it stands must then be a minor error that were never corrected. >Another possibility is of course that this particular ancestor of >Imrahil (Imrazór) wasn't an Edain ;-) Again, the textual history gives the answer: at the time LOTR was written (and at the time he wrote about the Imrazor Mithrellas union) Silvans were clearly Avari. Russ ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:03:59 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C694AFF.EC703C62@ifi.uio.no> References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: heigull.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1013533440 24884 129.240.65.150 (12 Feb 2002 17:04:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2002 17:04:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77165 Donald Shepherd wrote: > > For a complete coverage of this, try the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section in > the Silmarillion, under Part IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn > _and of Amroth King of Lorien". In case someone goes looking for it - this is in UT, not Sil. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:46:32 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <0o6j6usmlt2l33jh5f1ggo0lh699ieg4pk@4ax.com> References: <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se> <20020212100952.19660.00000061@mb-dh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-200.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77447 Just a general comment, i can't remember if this has been brought up before: In the only Maiar/Elf coupling, the Maiar was female. So, we again have a female going "below her station" so to speak. Can anything validly be made of this? -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com ###### From: robin@ratnest.demon.co.uk (Bob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:46:13 GMT Organization: self Message-ID: References: <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se> <20020212100952.19660.00000061@mb-dh.aol.com> <0o6j6usmlt2l33jh5f1ggo0lh699ieg4pk@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ratnest.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ratnest.demon.co.uk:158.152.144.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013561173 nnrp-14:1691 NO-IDENT ratnest.demon.co.uk:158.152.144.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ratnest.demon.co.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77429 In article <0o6j6usmlt2l33jh5f1ggo0lh699ieg4pk@4ax.com>, lazarus wrote: > Just a general comment, i can't remember if this has been brought up > before: > > In the only Maiar/Elf coupling, the Maiar was female. So, we again > have a female going "below her station" so to speak. Can anything > validly be made of this? > As I said, posh birds like a bit of rough. Bob ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:40:57 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> <3C694AFF.EC703C62@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202-155-11-210-cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1013571744 2177 210.11.155.202 (13 Feb 2002 03:42:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 03:42:24 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.xtra.co.nz!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77442 In article <3C694AFF.EC703C62@ifi.uio.no>, leivmh@ifi.uio.no says... > Donald Shepherd wrote: > > > > > For a complete coverage of this, try the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section in > > the Silmarillion, under Part IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn > > _and of Amroth King of Lorien". > > In case someone goes looking for it - this is in UT, not Sil. Well, so it is. Not sure how I mixed that up. -- Donald Shepherd BALROG: Screw Gandalf! Where’s this Ralph Bakshi guy? - http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=534018 ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Feb 2002 05:10:40 GMT References: <0o6j6usmlt2l33jh5f1ggo0lh699ieg4pk@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Message-ID: <20020213001040.05661.00000029@mb-ba.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77399 In article <0o6j6usmlt2l33jh5f1ggo0lh699ieg4pk@4ax.com>, lazarus writes: >Just a general comment, i can't remember if this has been brought up >before: > >In the only Maiar/Elf coupling, the Maiar was female. So, we again >have a female going "below her station" so to speak. Can anything >validly be made of this? Yeah. Hot women always like the bad boy. Russ ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Feb 2002 05:10:41 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Message-ID: <20020213001041.05661.00000030@mb-ba.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77396 In article , lazarus writes: >Were there ever any couplings of Elf male and Human female? If not, >why not? There almost was...Andreth and Aegnor (or Angrod. I always get those two mixed up). It's in a story called the Athrabeth. Russ ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se> <20020212100952.19660.00000061@mb-dh.aol.com> Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Lines: 71 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 Message-ID: <3c6a36b9$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 13 Feb 2002 10:49:45 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1013593785 212.130.21.178 (13 Feb 2002 10:49:45 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wineasy.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77351 "Russ" wrote in message news:20020212100952.19660.00000061@mb-dh.aol.com... > In article <3c691803$1@news.wineasy.se>, "Troels Forchhammer" > writes: > > >Elsewhere in this thread, Russ mentions that > >> in App A LOTR the statement was three 'Eldar-edain' unions. > >which is of course not as I remembered it (I remembered it as > >'Elves'), but still not quite concordant with the above, as the > >Silvan Elves of Lothlórien were accounted among the Eldar > >(they started out on the Great Journey, but left it before reaching > >the coast - or even Beleriand). > > Actually, there is an ongoing debate on that topic. At the time LOTR was > written, the Silvan Elves were Avari, not Eldarin Nandor. The Avarin > conception was confirmed in Quendi and Eldar (c. 1958-9) which is in HOME, > which also quite clearly makes the Silvans Elves Avari. In fact, it appears > Tolkien was still considering Silvans as Avari as late as the 1965 or so - the > publication of the Second Edition of LOTR. However, there are some later > writings that shift the Silvans to Eldarin Nandor - these texts are in > Unfinished Tales and a note in Of Dwarves and Men in People of Middle-earth. > > I have a lot of problems with the later conceptions. *Eldarin* Nandor do not > fit into the definition of Silvan 'East-elves' found in LOTR; nor is the > concept consistent with the three eldar-edain union issue we are discussing. > While the Eldarin Nandor as Avari is apparently the latest thought on the > matter, that factor, while important, standing alone is not dispositinve, in my > thinking. The Silvan=Avari idea was the intent at the time of writing of LOTR, > and is found in more substantial and completed post-LOTR text (i.e. Quendi and > Eldar); and doesn't run into the consistency problems that Avari=Eldarin Nandor > do. Others disagree and, as I said, there is a nice debate on the issue on AFT > ('More Elf-Men couples") > > > >I guess the statement in App A LotR, > >should have read three Calaquendi - Edain unions, and that the text > >as it stands must then be a minor error that were never corrected. > >Another possibility is of course that this particular ancestor of > >Imrahil (Imrazór) wasn't an Edain ;-) > > Again, the textual history gives the answer: at the time LOTR was written (and > at the time he wrote about the Imrazor Mithrellas union) Silvans were clearly > Avari. > > Russ Thanks for clarifying this. However things are interpreted it is clear that the Silvan Elves were /not/ intended to be included in the comment about three Eldar - Edain unions. -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to (t.forch@mail.dk) Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. Niels Bohr, to a young physicist ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:54:55 -0800 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C6EB910.1DC10711@erols.com> References: Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYbpRovxGBfYyz7dryjHghI2biNDH1Joe8cd/m2xhAvavTcVZLuti4D X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 05:46:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78160 A Tsar Is Born made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > There are no COUPLINGS in the sexual sense > in which the word is usually used, at all in Tolkien. None of his > characters ever feel, or act upon, sexual lust. Lúthien inspired lust in bad guys. > Parmathule > atsarisborn@hotmail.com Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: regarding elf-man couplings Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:57:06 -0800 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C6EB993.40BEF0AE@erols.com> References: <3c679984$1@news.wineasy.se> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbZ9gujsf6K0QsOEmj1Q6EHLqoloCmLRZsMXOWKw06TzaNMFsL9R5cM X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 05:46:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78026 AC made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Imrazor the > Numenorian took one of Nimrodel's companions as his wife. She bore him one > son and then fled. And a daughter. > --- > AaronC Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel!