From: owldragon7@yahoo.com (Jesse) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: 4 Feb 2002 14:28:05 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 59 Message-ID: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 160.39.101.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012861685 7037 127.0.0.1 (4 Feb 2002 22:28:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2002 22:28:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!36905!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76202 Has there ever been another Elf who had so many horrible things happen to him that were not in *any* way a consequence of his own decisions? Think about it: --When Elrond and his brother Elros were only small children, their settlement of refugees was attacked by Maedhros and Maglor in "the last and cruelest slaying of Elf by Elf." Many or most of the people around them were slaughtered. --The kids' parents thought they were dead, headed for Valinor. Elrond wouldn't see them again for over 6,000 years. From a small child's perspective, no different than being orphaned. --Elrond and Elros were taken prisoner, and then raised, by Maedhros and Maglor--not exactly the most stable of foster-parents. Later, they committed suicide and walked the beaches singing in pain, respectively. --Elrond chose to be an Elf, but Elros chose to be a Man. Though it is Elrond's separation from Arwen that gets all the press, the separation from Elros must have been equally wrenching. Elros was Elrond's only family in Middle-Earth-- and the separation is beyond the end of the world. Ouch. --During the Second Age, Elrond was second-in-command to Gil-Galad, heavily involved in fighting, saw an awful lot of death and destruction. --At the end of the Second Age, Elrond stood by Gil-Galad when the latter was burned to death by Sauron. Elrond witnessed both Gil-Galad's death, and the deaths of Elendil and Anarion--his many-generations-removed nephews. --Gil-Galad, Elendil, Anarion, and all the countless other Elves and Men died in vain when Isildur refused to destroy the Ring. And Elrond knew it. --After all that horror, Elrond settled down, got married, had kids, and seemed all set for happiness--but then his wife was tortured by Orcs. He healed her body but couldn't heal her mind, and she left for the West. Ouch. --And to top it all off, his beloved daughter Arwen wants to marry Aragorn and become mortal, so just like Elros, he'll be separated from her for all eternity. I know quite a few people who thought Hugo Weaving's portrayal of Elrond in the movie was too sour, too bitter--but the way I see it, the guy has reason to be bitter!! Has any other Elf experienced so much undeserved horror? ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:56:05 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C5FAC35.2DC19410@gmx.de> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.online.be!195.129.110.18.MISMATCH!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76261 Jesse wrote: > > Has there ever been another Elf who had so many horrible things happen > to him that were not in *any* way a consequence of his own decisions? Quite an interesting list. Strangely enough I never considered that until the movie. In the book, Elrond tells the story about Isildur refusing to destroy the ring with such calm that I put it down as "Sh** happens". In the movie, for the first time I got an *idea* of how frustrating (to put it mildly) it must have been... OTOH, I wonder if bad things might not be *less* horrible if they're undeserved. To quote from another universe: "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So now, I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." --- Marcus Cole, Babylon 5 inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:32:30 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C5FD0DE.3B128ABC@ifi.uio.no> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: miguskot.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012912350 11061 129.240.66.143 (5 Feb 2002 12:32:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 2002 12:32:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75842 Jesse wrote: > I know quite a few people who thought Hugo Weaving's portrayal of > Elrond in the movie was too sour, too bitter--but the way I see it, > the guy has reason to be bitter!! I had the same reaction to Weaving's portrayal of Elrond and Isildur. Thanks for elaborating on it. :-) -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: "yauming" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Lines: 5 Organization: tudor house X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:31:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.47.18 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1012955503 144.132.47.18 (Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:31:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:31:43 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!hub1.nntpserver.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76474 Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? ###### From: "yauming" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Lines: 5 Organization: tudor house X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:32:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.47.18 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1012959142 144.132.47.18 (Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:32:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:32:22 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!hub1.nntpserver.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76471 Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? ###### From: "Yuk Tang" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:41:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-184-78.btinternet.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1012959669 14179 213.1.184.78 (6 Feb 2002 01:41:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:41:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76452 "yauming" wrote in message news:PP_78.175$Zu6.987@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? Isildur the Numenorean was probably bigger than Elrond the Noldo. Galadriel, while admittedly a female Noldo, was about the height of the average Numenorean. Celeborn the Tall, admittedly a Sinda, was around the same height. Isildur was the son of Elendil, who was exceptionally tall even by Numenorean standards. Plus he had the Ring to act as an incentive. So any attempt by Elrond to seize the Ring would probably have seen him in the Halls of Mandos, via the fires of Orodruin. Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:01:44 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.11.155.101 X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1012975383 4339 210.11.155.101 (6 Feb 2002 06:03:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Feb 2002 06:03:03 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76459 In article , write_myname_here@bigpond.net.au says... > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? Why didn't Elrond push Isildur into the Cracks, rather than let the Ring out? -- Donald Shepherd ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:51:38 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76468 Donald Shepherd wrote: > > In article , > write_myname_here@bigpond.net.au says... > > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into > > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? > > Why didn't Elrond push Isildur into the Cracks, rather than let the Ring > out? I think the decision that saving the future is worth the murder of an ally (maybe even friend) isn't reached at the spur of a moment. Especially since there's always tomorrow. Maybe someone wiser or more convincing could persuade Isildur to give the ring up. Maybe Isildur himself would reconsider... And as for Elrond taking the ring from Isildur: Not only might it have proven difficult -- there was no telling how dangerous the ring might have been for Elrond had he taken it. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:46:47 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C615DF6.26D794A7@ifi.uio.no> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C5FD0DE.3B128ABC@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: galgopi.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1013014007 18321 129.240.65.254 (6 Feb 2002 16:46:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Feb 2002 16:46:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76393 RogerioL wrote: > Hahaha, I thought the same (such a dull Elrond is Weaving), but now > everything is clear ! Um, no, I meant to say that I agreed with Weaving having *reason* to be bitter. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: "LordKhamul" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:23:05 -0600 Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: r77h179.res.gatech.edu X-Trace: news-int.gatech.edu 1013016314 18401 128.61.77.179 (6 Feb 2002 17:25:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news-int.gatech.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:25:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-ext.gatech.edu!news-int.gatech.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76443 One thing I disliked about the movie was the portrayal of Isildur as conceited and almost even evil after he takes the ring. The way it was written seemed to be more that he took it as an heirloom, not for desire of power but out of grief for his father and brother who died. Remember that Isildur saved a sapling of the white tree in the Akallabeth, established the kingdom of Gondor, and fought and defeated Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin. Elrond knows that it is Isildur, not him, who has the right to decide what is done with the ring. "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message news:3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de... > > > Donald Shepherd wrote: > > > > In article , > > write_myname_here@bigpond.net.au says... > > > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into > > > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? > > > > Why didn't Elrond push Isildur into the Cracks, rather than let the Ring > > out? > > I think the decision that saving the future is worth the murder of an > ally (maybe even friend) isn't reached at the spur of a moment. > Especially since there's always tomorrow. Maybe someone wiser or more > convincing could persuade Isildur to give the ring up. Maybe Isildur > himself would reconsider... > > And as for Elrond taking the ring from Isildur: Not only might it have > proven difficult -- there was no telling how dangerous the ring might > have been for Elrond had he taken it. > > > inge > > -- > "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his > own way." > - Robert Frost > === > -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: "Rick" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com> Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-Trace: /wzbxeUz6ayzOJHmvZ4kkNlleHBPkjN+T/Aj60h+BMjdQDiaxZWakjw9seDIRH0lPHa0gWamS6ET!J3hMqVNHGtaWa+d+QWpeVdWIHA7mtdwyBdm5RCta1bgYsawEE/zLDO/Gqge3Uk02uhAMezxPAz4o!vCHQRw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:17:11 GMT Distribution: world Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:17:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!131.119.28.146!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76456 "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote in message news:3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com... > yauming wrote: > > > > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into > > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? > > He had no right to do it. And he knew it. > > The ends does not justify the means. Actually I suspect the reason was more that he knew that he could not resist the temptation of the One Ring himself. ###### From: Felix Reuthner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 00:19:59 +0100 Organization: T-Online Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1013037600 03 16373 U4GmTNWbSgY+ah 020206 23:20:00 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 520059476882-0001@t-dialin.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en]C-CCK-MCD QXW0323l (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: de,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76535 LordKhamul wrote: > > One thing I disliked about the movie was the portrayal of Isildur as > conceited and almost even evil after he takes the ring. The way it was > written seemed to be more that he took it as an heirloom, not for desire of > power but out of grief for his father and brother who died. Humans tend to act first an then try to find a good explanation for their acts. Building an opinion works similar, btw. > Remember that Isildur saved a sapling of the white tree in the Akallabeth, > established the kingdom of Gondor, and fought and defeated Sauron on the > slopes of Orodruin. Elrond knows that it is Isildur, not him, who has the > right to decide what is done with the ring. Let's say Isildur had the *power* to decide, which is sometimes even better than the right to do so. Felix ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:03:25 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 218-155-11-210-cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1013058285 14250 210.11.155.218 (7 Feb 2002 05:04:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 2002 05:04:45 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!22367!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76575 In article <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de>, wildwusel@gmx.de says... > > > Donald Shepherd wrote: > > > > In article , > > write_myname_here@bigpond.net.au says... > > > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it into > > > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? > > > > Why didn't Elrond push Isildur into the Cracks, rather than let the Ring > > out? > > I think the decision that saving the future is worth the murder of an > ally (maybe even friend) isn't reached at the spur of a moment. > Especially since there's always tomorrow. Maybe someone wiser or more > convincing could persuade Isildur to give the ring up. Maybe Isildur > himself would reconsider... I wasn't really advocating that point of view. The questions just posed a remarkable similarity to the "Master Samwise on the Silver Screen" thread in AFT, in which the above was strongly advised. -- Donald Shepherd ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:49:06 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76571 Donald Shepherd wrote: > > In article <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de>, wildwusel@gmx.de says... > > > > > > I wasn't really advocating that point of view. The questions just posed > a remarkable similarity to the "Master Samwise on the Silver Screen" > thread in AFT, in which the above was strongly advised. The old question of expediency... Reality aside, in a moral universe (which Tolkien's is) it would be a Very Bad Idea to do evil to fight evil. That's what the ring is about, IMO. (Well, one of the things.) inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: tb19801980@yahoo.co.uk (TB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: 7 Feb 2002 06:00:33 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.150.166.54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013090434 4572 127.0.0.1 (7 Feb 2002 14:00:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 2002 14:00:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76579 "Rick" wrote in message news:... > "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote in > message news:3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com... > > yauming wrote: > > > > > > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it > into > > > the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? > > > > He had no right to do it. And he knew it. > > > > The ends does not justify the means. > > Actually I suspect the reason was more that he knew that he could not resist > the temptation of the One Ring himself. To paraphrase someone we know, I suppose Elrond was not too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even he could not see all ends. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:26:01 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a208.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013095736 19282 212.205.240.208 (7 Feb 2002 15:28:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:28:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76525 "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message news:3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de... > > Donald Shepherd wrote: > > > > In article <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de>, wildwusel@gmx.de says... > > > > I wasn't really advocating that point of view. The questions just posed > > a remarkable similarity to the "Master Samwise on the Silver Screen" > > thread in AFT, in which the above was strongly advised. > > The old question of expediency... Reality aside, in a moral universe > (which Tolkien's is) it would be a Very Bad Idea to do evil to fight > evil. That's what the ring is about, IMO. (Well, one of the things.) Hmph. Whether reality or fantasy the question some of us are asking is whether it's evil at *all* to do certain things, like pushing Gollum (or for that matter Isildur) into the volcano. Just calling it evil and then claiming that it's a Very Bad Idea to do evil to fight evil, uses an assumption that not everyone has agreed on. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:28:01 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a208.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013095747 19282 212.205.240.208 (7 Feb 2002 15:29:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:29:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76527 "TB" wrote in message news:be6d0598.0202070600.3db2faa4@posting.google.com... > "Rick" wrote in message news:... > > > > Actually I suspect the reason was more that he knew that he could not resist > > the temptation of the One Ring himself. > > To paraphrase someone we know, I suppose Elrond was not too eager to > deal out death in judgement. For even he could not see all ends. Isildur was a friend with whom he had laboured for long years. That's hardly someone you can kill with a moment's thought. Not unless you are a far different person than Elrond was. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:32:16 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3C62AC10.20C4FE5F@law.harvard.edu> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76515 Aris Katsaris wrote: > > "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message > > > > The old question of expediency... Reality aside, in a moral universe > > (which Tolkien's is) it would be a Very Bad Idea to do evil to fight > > evil. That's what the ring is about, IMO. (Well, one of the things.) > > Hmph. Whether reality or fantasy the question some of us are asking > is whether it's evil at *all* to do certain things, like pushing Gollum > (or for that matter Isildur) into the volcano. > > Just calling it evil and then claiming that it's a Very Bad Idea to > do evil to fight evil, uses an assumption that not everyone has > agreed on. > As far as pushing Isildur in, slaying one's ally is under most moral codes considered to be Evil. Even if said ally is Being Very Stupid, unless it is done in self-defense, you don't kill people you've fought beside without at least declaring an end to the alliance. Warrior's honor and all that. At any rate, the morality of Middle-earth seems to be that killing outside of battle is evil. And for Elrond to push Isildur into the cracks, or Sam to do so to Gollum, would have been an act of cold-blooded murder, no matter how good their motivations. 'The ends justifies the means' is generally considered more the provence of Evil, though that can make life a mite tricky for the good guys. emilie ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:25:01 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de> <3C62AC10.20C4FE5F@law.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a208.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013102767 24762 212.205.240.208 (7 Feb 2002 17:26:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:26:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76523 "Emilie Karr" wrote in message news:3C62AC10.20C4FE5F@law.harvard.edu... > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message > > > > > > The old question of expediency... Reality aside, in a moral universe > > > (which Tolkien's is) it would be a Very Bad Idea to do evil to fight > > > evil. That's what the ring is about, IMO. (Well, one of the things.) > > > > Hmph. Whether reality or fantasy the question some of us are asking > > is whether it's evil at *all* to do certain things, like pushing Gollum > > (or for that matter Isildur) into the volcano. > > > > Just calling it evil and then claiming that it's a Very Bad Idea to > > do evil to fight evil, uses an assumption that not everyone has > > agreed on. > > As far as pushing Isildur in, slaying one's ally is under most moral > codes considered to be Evil. Even if said ally is Being Very Stupid, > unless it is done in self-defense, you don't kill people you've fought > beside without at least declaring an end to the alliance. Warrior's > honor and all that. > > At any rate, the morality of Middle-earth seems to be that killing > outside of battle is evil. And for Elrond to push Isildur into the > cracks, or Sam to do so to Gollum, would have been an act of > cold-blooded murder, no matter how good their motivations. I'm not certain I agree with either - certainly not about the Sam/Gollum situation, nor about the "killing outside of battle" bit. Tolkien may consider it *wrong*, but I don't think he'd consider it evil in all circumstances. (and yes, I differentiate between the two. Manwe has done wrong things, but he has done no evil things.) Either way, I don't think that even Tolkien considers executing convicted criminals as "evil" (this seems to have been a punishment for certain trasgressions of old in Gondor), though I think he does consider it wrong. Likewise Frodo and Sam debate whether they should kill Gollum rather than risk them following it. Tolkien does believe it would be wrong to kill him - but I doubt he'd consider it *evil* to kill him. It would be a killing of necessity as they'd deem it, not a killing of cruelty which *would* be both evil and wrong. Turin killing Brandir was on the other hand an evil deed - it served no purpose other than Turin's desire for vengeance. Faramir shooting Gollum though (as he would have done were there no Frodo) wouldn't be evil. Throwing Gollum inside wouldn't have been an act of cold-blooded murder - or do you think that Turin killing Glaurung was also an act of cold-blooded murder? Aris Katsaris ###### From: tb19801980@yahoo.co.uk (TB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: 8 Feb 2002 05:46:25 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.150.166.54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013175987 7698 127.0.0.1 (8 Feb 2002 13:46:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2002 13:46:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76644 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:... > "TB" wrote in message > news:be6d0598.0202070600.3db2faa4@posting.google.com... > > "Rick" wrote in message > news:... > > > > > > Actually I suspect the reason was more that he knew that he could not resist > > > the temptation of the One Ring himself. > > > > To paraphrase someone we know, I suppose Elrond was not too eager to > > deal out death in judgement. For even he could not see all ends. > > Isildur was a friend with whom he had laboured for long years. That's > hardly someone you can kill with a moment's thought. Not unless you > are a far different person than Elrond was. > > Aris Katsaris First of all, sorry, I send my comment as an answer to Donald Shep's question, "Why didn't Elrond push Isildur into the Cracks, rather than let the Ring out?" but pressed the "Answer" hyperlink at the wrong place. But coming back to Aris' comment, well, even if Isildur were not that close a friend or even an outright enemy, ought a wise man have pushed him in? Cheers ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de> <3C62AC10.20C4FE5F@law.harvard.edu> Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Lines: 148 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.178 Message-ID: <3c63f5d7$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 8 Feb 2002 16:59:19 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1013183959 212.130.21.178 (8 Feb 2002 16:59:19 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wineasy.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76601 "Aris Katsaris" quoth thus: > "Emilie Karr" wrote > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > "Ingeborg Denner" wrote > > > > > > > > The old question of expediency... Reality aside, in a moral universe > > > > (which Tolkien's is) it would be a Very Bad Idea to do evil to fight > > > > evil. That's what the ring is about, IMO. (Well, one of the things.) > > > > > > Hmph. Whether reality or fantasy the question some of us are asking > > > is whether it's evil at *all* to do certain things, like pushing Gollum > > > (or for that matter Isildur) into the volcano. > > > > > > Just calling it evil and then claiming that it's a Very Bad Idea to > > > do evil to fight evil, uses an assumption that not everyone has > > > agreed on. > > > > As far as pushing Isildur in, slaying one's ally is under most moral > > codes considered to be Evil. Even if said ally is Being Very Stupid, > > unless it is done in self-defense, you don't kill people you've fought > > beside without at least declaring an end to the alliance. Warrior's > > honor and all that. > > > > At any rate, the morality of Middle-earth seems to be that killing > > outside of battle is evil. And for Elrond to push Isildur into the > > cracks, or Sam to do so to Gollum, would have been an act of > > cold-blooded murder, no matter how good their motivations. > > I'm not certain I agree with either - certainly not about the > Sam/Gollum situation, nor about the "killing outside of battle" bit. > Tolkien may consider it *wrong*, but I don't think he'd consider > it evil in all circumstances. (and yes, I differentiate between the > two. Manwe has done wrong things, but he has done no evil > things.) Ahh - those definitions. How do we distinguish between 'evil' and 'wrong'? Based on intent? - or maybe consequences? A good guy may act in such a way that the consequences are evil - or promotes evil in the world, though the original intention was to do good. Is the original act (based on an erroneous analysis) evil? - wrong? - or just a case of bad judgement? > Either way, I don't think that even Tolkien considers executing > convicted criminals as "evil" (this seems to have been a punishment > for certain trasgressions of old in Gondor), though I think he does > consider it wrong. I disagree - I think Tolkien would consider all killing evil - except for the disposal of Orcs, Trolls, Balrogs, Dragons etc. - creatures that are inherently (though possibly not irredeemably) evil. The feelings of Faramir about killing seems to sum up the morality Tolkien promotes - the one about not killing except if absolutely necessary, and not even then liking the killing. Killing people (Men, Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits and other "good" races) might in some cases be necessary, but it would still be evil. That the death penalty was used in Gondor is not much of a reassurance as the history of Gondor includes a number of foolish, malicious or downright evil rulers and captains. > Likewise Frodo and Sam debate whether they > should kill Gollum rather than risk them following it. Tolkien does > believe it would be wrong to kill him - but I doubt he'd consider > it *evil* to kill him. It would be a killing of necessity as they'd > deem it, not a killing of cruelty which *would* be both evil and > wrong. Remember the conversation between Gandalf and Frodo about Gollum: "He deserves death." "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." One thing that Tolkien would consider 'evil' was the thwarting of God's (Eru's) design - and as the above conversation shows, the killing of any one person bears the possibility of causing that. This is a major reason for considering such killing evil - just the possibility of thwarting the grand design. > Turin killing Brandir was on the other hand an evil deed - it served > no purpose other than Turin's desire for vengeance. Faramir shooting > Gollum though (as he would have done were there no Frodo) wouldn't > be evil. > > Throwing Gollum inside wouldn't have been an act of cold-blooded > murder - or do you think that Turin killing Glaurung was also an act > of cold-blooded murder? As stated above, I think we must distinguish between the killing of the 'good' races and killing of 'evil' races. In that light the two situations are incomparable. If good and evil are distinguished by the intent, it isn't possible to judge the act of throwing Gollum into the Sammath Naur without asking the intention of the act. If it was done with relief for getting rid of Gollum as well as the Ring, then I'd call it evil (if judge by intent). On the other hand it could be done with reluctance as a last resort - the only foreseeable way to undo the One Ring. In this case it may very well be wrong without being actually evil. If, alternatively, any act is judged on it's own merits, throwing Gollum into the chasm (or indeed killing any person of a good race) would be an act of evil - no redeeming qualifiers possible. The third way of judging the act would be by consequences. In this case the death of Gollum would be balanced by the destruction of the One Ring. Whether they would balance perfectly or to one side is anyone's guess. It is my feeling (though I have nothing at all to substantiate it) that Tolkien would have acts judged by intent - thus the killing at the Pelennor Fields was justified by the intention to protect and preserve Minas Tirith - and ultimately Gondor. I just happened to remember this little quote, which I sometimes use for my sig - nothing to do with Tolkien, but still in some way bears upon the point of this post. "She complicates this whole business, and I don't like complications. I like nice, simple situations and nice, easy solutions." "Good and Evil?" Durnik suggested. "That's a difficult one, Durnik. I prefer 'them and us.' That clears away all the excess baggage and allows you to get right down to cases." -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to t.forch@mail.dk - I USHERED SOULS INTO THE NEXT WORLD. I WAS THE GRAVE OF ALL HOPE. I WAS THE ULTIMATE REALITY. I WAS THE ASSASSIN AGAINST WHOM NO LOCK WOULD HOLD. - "Yes, point taken, but do you have any particular skills?" -- Death consults a job broker (Terry Pratchett, Mort) ###### From: owldragon7@yahoo.com (Jesse) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: 8 Feb 2002 12:39:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: <530c5313.0202081239.2f7ac0dc@posting.google.com> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.59.37.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013200782 19751 127.0.0.1 (8 Feb 2002 20:39:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2002 20:39:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76684 "Rick" wrote in message news:... > "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote in > message news:3C6177F2.2BE75508@MOVEcgey.com... > > yauming wrote: > > > > > > Why didn't Elrond try to take the Ring away from Isildur and throw it > > > into the fire? Or what caused him to not do that? > > Actually I suspect the reason was more that he knew that he could not resist > the temptation of the One Ring himself. I agree But I wonder if Elrond knew this consciously. Perhaps one reason for his bitterness towards Isildur in the film was that he knew he also would have claimed the Ring as his own--but he would prefer not to admit it. Just a thought. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:36:24 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <3C6277C2.70CF0283@gmx.de> <3C62AC10.20C4FE5F@law.harvard.edu> <3c63f5d7$1@news.wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b043.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1013204229 18677 212.205.219.43 (8 Feb 2002 21:37:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:37:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76680 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:3c63f5d7$1@news.wineasy.se... > "Aris Katsaris" quoth thus: > > "Emilie Karr" wrote > > > > > > At any rate, the morality of Middle-earth seems to be that killing > > > outside of battle is evil. And for Elrond to push Isildur into the > > > cracks, or Sam to do so to Gollum, would have been an act of > > > cold-blooded murder, no matter how good their motivations. > > > > I'm not certain I agree with either - certainly not about the > > Sam/Gollum situation, nor about the "killing outside of battle" bit. > > Tolkien may consider it *wrong*, but I don't think he'd consider > > it evil in all circumstances. (and yes, I differentiate between the > > two. Manwe has done wrong things, but he has done no evil > > things.) > > Ahh - those definitions. > How do we distinguish between 'evil' and 'wrong'? > Based on intent? - or maybe consequences? Intent, I think, is the important bit. > A good guy may act in such a way that the consequences are > evil - or promotes evil in the world, though the original intention > was to do good. > Is the original act (based on an erroneous > analysis) evil? - wrong? - or just a case of bad judgement? Well of course it would be "wrong" in the sense that it oughtn't have been made; that's practically indistinguishable from "a case of bad judgement". > The feelings of Faramir about killing seems to sum up the morality > Tolkien promotes - the one about not killing except if absolutely > necessary, and not even then liking the killing. Well, sure, but not liking the killing doesn't mean that said killing was 'evil', or even wrong to do. Only Faramir's knowledge that this is an act that belongs to Arda Marred - the same way that Fingon was ready to kill Maedhros in mercy. His killing Maedhros wouldn't be wrong or evil in that respect - but it would still be something he wouldn't like. > Killing people (Men, Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits and other "good" > races) might in some cases be necessary, but it would still be > evil. It may be 'evil' only in the sense that it's something that need never have been were it not for the Marring of Arda - but I don't think that Tolkien would ever believe that doing evil (in the usual sense of the word) is at times necessary!! That's fighting Sauron using Sauron's ring. It goes against the entire ethos of his work. > > Likewise Frodo and Sam debate whether they > > should kill Gollum rather than risk them following it. Tolkien does > > believe it would be wrong to kill him - but I doubt he'd consider > > it *evil* to kill him. It would be a killing of necessity as they'd > > deem it, not a killing of cruelty which *would* be both evil and > > wrong. > > Remember the conversation between Gandalf and Frodo about > Gollum: [snip] > One thing that Tolkien would consider 'evil' was the thwarting of > God's (Eru's) design - and as the above conversation shows, the > killing of any one person bears the possibility of causing that. This > is a major reason for considering such killing evil - just the possibility > of thwarting the grand design. I've quoted that dialog myself quite often. But *nothing* can thwart the design of Eru - and nothing in that debate shows that all killing is evil. "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." This is an advice, not a religious commandment. > > Throwing Gollum inside wouldn't have been an act of cold-blooded > > murder - or do you think that Turin killing Glaurung was also an act > > of cold-blooded murder? > > As stated above, I think we must distinguish between the killing of the > 'good' races and killing of 'evil' races. In that light the two situations > are incomparable. No, I don't think so. Orcs and similar creatures still existed within the Law, as Tolkien says in Morgoth's Ring - they oughtn't be killed if they surrendered, they oughtn't be tortured for any reasons. Things that obviously applied to human enemies also. The only reason to kill Orcs is the same one for killing the human servants of the enemy. Aris Katsaris ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Lines: 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <98Y88.20452$W05.65178@zonnet-reader-1> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:27:26 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.12.52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1013206661 62.59.12.52 (Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:17:41 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:17:41 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!news7.euro.net!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76707 Felix Reuthner wrote: >Humans tend to act first an then try to find a good explanation for >their acts. "Humans"? Not me, and I'm as human as any. Greetings, T. ###### From: elentirmo@mindspring.com (Brian Mason) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:14:15 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3c645a68.30548704@news.mindspring.com> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> Reply-To: elentirmo@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.75.fe X-Server-Date: 8 Feb 2002 23:14:16 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76722 owldragon7@yahoo.com (Jesse) wrote: >Has there ever been another Elf who had so many horrible things happen >to him >that were not in *any* way a consequence of his own decisions? > >Think about it: > >I know quite a few people who thought Hugo Weaving's portrayal of >Elrond in the movie was too sour, too bitter--but the way I see it, >the guy has reason to be bitter!! Has any other Elf experienced so >much undeserved horror? Well, Gil-Galad was High King of the Noldor and he never even knew who his mother or father were. :-) Elrond can't really complain too much, his second cousin (twice removed), poor old Turin had a much rougher time. It could have been worse ... Now, if you want to talk about being ignored (and opening it up to non-Elves), how about poor old Tom Bombadil. Ignored by Brian Sibley (well, in his Lord of the Rings, anyway), ignored by Ralph Bakshi, and ignored by Peter Jackson. Brian ###### From: s348712@student_SPAM_.uq.edu.au (AndrewR) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:51:39 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3c6a0c07.7078108@news.uq.edu.au> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d-246-78.stlucia.uq.net.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1013582899 3810 203.101.246.78 (13 Feb 2002 06:48:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 06:48:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77362 On 4 Feb 2002 14:28:05 -0800, owldragon7@yahoo.com (Jesse) wrote: [snip] >I know quite a few people who thought Hugo Weaving's portrayal of >Elrond in the movie was too sour, too bitter--but the way I see it, >the guy has reason to be bitter!! Has any other Elf experienced so >much undeserved horror? Ohhh what a nice spin on Elrond! I think you've just made me enjoy Hugo Weaving's portrail of Elrond all the more! Thankyou! It totally fits with how he did Elrond! I think - maybe because of the Hobbit - that we get this mind-set that Elrond is this easy-to-approach easy-going NICE, KINDLY wouldn't say boo Elf-man... when you think about his histroy the way you have - it makes much more sense... On top of that remember Imladris was beseiged by Sauron in the Second Age... And remember Elrond was a very perceptive Elf and very wise, and I don't think would suffer fools gladly. Andrew -- AndrewR Guardian of Willow's resolve face. ###### From: s348712@student_SPAM_.uq.edu.au (AndrewR) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:55:23 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3c6a0d9d.7484054@news.uq.edu.au> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: d-246-78.stlucia.uq.net.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1013583123 3810 203.101.246.78 (13 Feb 2002 06:52:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 06:52:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77369 On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:23:05 -0600, "LordKhamul" wrote: >One thing I disliked about the movie was the portrayal of Isildur as >conceited and almost even evil after he takes the ring. The way it was >written seemed to be more that he took it as an heirloom, not for desire of >power but out of grief for his father and brother who died. > >Remember that Isildur saved a sapling of the white tree in the Akallabeth, >established the kingdom of Gondor, and fought and defeated Sauron on the >slopes of Orodruin. Elrond knows that it is Isildur, not him, who has the >right to decide what is done with the ring. But remember they were trying to show how the ring CORRUPTS people - a mirror of this same 'encounter' will occur in the Third movie of course... -- AndrewR Guardian of Willow's resolve face. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:28:45 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C6A4DED.AB6C920@gmx.de> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <3c6a0d9d.7484054@news.uq.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77448 AndrewR wrote: > > > But remember they were trying to show how the ring CORRUPTS people - a > mirror of this same 'encounter' will occur in the Third movie of > course... Speaking of mirrors and foreshadowing... I wonder if the final scene will be like the smoke rings that Gandalf and Bilbo blew on the eve of Bilbo's Party: You know, a ship crossing through a misty portal into the sunset and disappearing. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:42:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3c6a0d9d.7484054@news.uq.edu.au> <3C6A4DED.AB6C920@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1013607738 20577 129.241.210.168 (13 Feb 2002 13:42:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:42:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77405 In article <3C6A4DED.AB6C920@gmx.de>, Ingeborg Denner wrote: > >Speaking of mirrors and foreshadowing... I wonder if the final scene >will be like the smoke rings that Gandalf and Bilbo blew on the eve of >Bilbo's Party: You know, a ship crossing through a misty portal into the >sunset and disappearing. That was such a cute scene for those of us who'd already read the book. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: Felix Reuthner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:02:56 +0100 Organization: T-Online Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <98Y88.20452$W05.65178@zonnet-reader-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1013695376 00 7424 EinoTZ0SSbDIua 020214 14:02:56 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 520059476882-0001@t-dialin.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en]C-CCK-MCD QXW0323l (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: de,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77618 Taemon wrote: > > Felix Reuthner wrote: > > >Humans tend to act first an then try to find a good explanation > for > >their acts. > > "Humans"? Not me, and I'm as human as any. How many humans you know do the same? Felix ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C6126DA.2C48D08A@gmx.de> <98Y88.20452$W05.65178@zonnet-reader-1> Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:57:51 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.16.172 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1013813385 62.59.16.172 (Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:49:45 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:49:45 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!news7.euro.net!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77930 Felix Reuthner wrote: >> >Humans tend to act first an then try to find a good explanation >> >for their acts. >> "Humans"? Not me, and I'm as human as any. >How many humans you know do the same? Some do. Some don't. Greetings, T. ###### From: kjbleukillspam@kjbleu.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Message-ID: <3c72ef99.4068513@netnews.attbi.com> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3c6a0c07.7078108@news.uq.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:48:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.130.39.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: typhoon3.we.ipsvc.net 1013903286 24.130.39.29 (Sat, 16 Feb 2002 15:48:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 15:48:06 PST Organization: AT&T Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!cyclone1.we.ipsvc.net!cyclone3.we.ipsvc.net!typhoon3.we.ipsvc.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78092 On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:51:39 GMT, s348712@student_SPAM_.uq.edu.au (AndrewR) wrote: >On 4 Feb 2002 14:28:05 -0800, owldragon7@yahoo.com (Jesse) wrote: > >[snip] > >>I know quite a few people who thought Hugo Weaving's portrayal of >>Elrond in the movie was too sour, too bitter--but the way I see it, >>the guy has reason to be bitter!! Has any other Elf experienced so >>much undeserved horror? > >Ohhh what a nice spin on Elrond! I think you've just made me enjoy >Hugo Weaving's portrail of Elrond all the more! Thankyou! It totally >fits with how he did Elrond! I think - maybe because of the Hobbit - >that we get this mind-set that Elrond is this easy-to-approach >easy-going NICE, KINDLY wouldn't say boo Elf-man... when you think >about his histroy the way you have - it makes much more sense... On >top of that remember Imladris was beseiged by Sauron in the Second >Age... > >And remember Elrond was a very perceptive Elf and very wise, and I >don't think would suffer fools gladly. > >Andrew I have to defend the way Elrond was portrayed in the movie. Even forgetting all that had happened to Elrond before, look at the situation: Sauron has arisen again and is growing in power, plus the One is found. It looks very grim for Middle Earth no matter what. Is Elrond supposed to be happy right about now? KJ (Anti spam measures in effect. To email me remove 'killspam' from my address.) ###### From: "Brett Evill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:22:35 +1100 Organization: unaffiliated Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3c6f139d@iridium.webone.com.au> References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3c6a0c07.7078108@news.uq.edu.au> <3c72ef99.4068513@netnews.attbi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridium.webone.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1013912503 17235 210.8.44.3 (17 Feb 2002 02:21:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 02:21:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-ctb03131.webone.com.au X-Original-Trace: 17 Feb 2002 13:21:17 +1000, dial-ctb03131.webone.com.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.xtra.co.nz!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!iridium.webone.com.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78079 In article <3c72ef99.4068513@netnews.attbi.com> , kjbleukillspam@kjbleu.com wrote: >I have to defend the way Elrond was portrayed in the movie. Even >forgetting all that had happened to Elrond before, look at the >situation: Sauron has arisen again and is growing in power, plus the >One is found. It looks very grim for Middle Earth no matter what. Is >Elrond supposed to be happy right about now? But does he have to blame everything on the weakness of Men? He doesn't come across as a guy whose father and brother were Men (unless perhaps he is really pissed as his father for abandoning him, and is in serious denial). I kept wanting to rap him on the forehead with my knuckles and say "Listen up, Agent Elrond: Beren was not a virus, Earendil was not a virus, Elros was not a virus, Elendil was not a virus, and their descendant Aragorn, your nephew and son-in-law-elect, is not a virus!" Of course, it's quite possible that film-Elrond, unlike book-Elrond, is not half-Man. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### Message-ID: <3C6FFF4B.EAC9F1C2@pp.inet.fi> From: Mikael Halila X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3c6a0c07.7078108@news.uq.edu.au> <3c72ef99.4068513@netnews.attbi.com> <3c6f139d@iridium.webone.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:08:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.71.158.84 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 1013972907 62.71.158.84 (Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:08:27 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:08:27 EET Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!ams.uu.net!newsfeed.song.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78036 Brett Evill wrote: > > In article <3c72ef99.4068513@netnews.attbi.com> , > kjbleukillspam@kjbleu.com wrote: > > >I have to defend the way Elrond was portrayed in the movie. Even > >forgetting all that had happened to Elrond before, look at the > >situation: Sauron has arisen again and is growing in power, plus the > >One is found. It looks very grim for Middle Earth no matter what. Is > >Elrond supposed to be happy right about now? > > But does he have to blame everything on the weakness of Men? He doesn't > come across as a guy whose father and brother were Men (unless perhaps > he is really pissed as his father for abandoning him, and is in serious > denial). I kept wanting to rap him on the forehead with my knuckles and > say "Listen up, Agent Elrond: Beren was not a virus, Earendil was not a > virus, Elros was not a virus, Elendil was not a virus, and their > descendant Aragorn, your nephew and son-in-law-elect, is not a virus!" I kept feeling peeved because at a meeting with the Heir of Isildur, envoys of Galadriel and Cirdan, and the wisest of the Maiar, film-Elrond has the nerve to act like their overlord and say things like "This is your problem, and you must solve it." You do _not_ talk that way to a Maia of Manwe! I thought his attitude was completely wrong; no problem with bitterness, but Elrond is most definitely not the Lord of Arda even though he behaved that way. > Of course, it's quite possible that film-Elrond, unlike book-Elrond, is > not half-Man. IMHO, considering what they did to the story, film-Elrond could have been a Balrog. :) Mikael Halila -- Mikael the Eccentric St:14 Dx:10 Co:8 In:10 Wi:10 Ch:8 Dlvl:0 $:0 HP:20(20) Pw:0(0) AC:9 Xp:1/2 T:19 Conf Sick ###### From: camilla4@REMOVE.TO.REPLYmindspring.com (Camilla Cracchiolo, R.N.) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: 18 Feb 2002 18:25:54 GMT Organization: Skeptics 'R Us Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C5FD0DE.3B128ABC@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: camilla@primenet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.7c.25 X-Newsreader: EmTec News for OS/2 [version: 4.6e] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78265 In message <3C5FD0DE.3B128ABC@ifi.uio.no> - Leiv Hodne writes: :> :>Jesse wrote: :> :>> I know quite a few people who thought Hugo Weaving's portrayal of :>> Elrond in the movie was too sour, too bitter--but the way I see it, :>> the guy has reason to be bitter!! :> :>I had the same reaction to Weaving's portrayal of Elrond and Isildur. :>Thanks for elaborating on it. :-) Actually, I thought he was sexy. :-) Seriously, this elf is believable as a warrior capable of hewing down a few enemies. :> :>-- :>mvh :>Leiv Hodne :> :>"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what :>the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be :>replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. :> :>There is another theory which states that this has already happened." :> :> Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) :> :> :> Please send me an e-mail copy of any replies you post to the newsgroup. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- "The trick is to keep an open mind, without it being so open that your brain falls out" Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California USA camilla4@mindspring.com http://www.primenet.com/~camilla Take back Free Speech Radio in Los Angeles: http://freekpfk.net ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elrond: unluckiest of Elves? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:38:53 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <530c5313.0202041428.13bad47a@posting.google.com> <3C5FAC35.2DC19410@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.05.a9 X-Server-Date: 19 Feb 2002 02:38:54 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!jblanks Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78424 Ingeborg Denner wrote: >In the book, Elrond tells the story about Isildur >refusing to destroy the ring with such calm that I put it down as >"Sh** happens". Tolkien uses the word "gravely" farther up the page (I just checked). Calm, but probably with that bitterness underneath, softened into melancholy (and "melancholy" is about the first thing I think of when I conceive of Elrond). What Weaving does is put the bitterness on top; I think that might be people's problem with him. And yes, the movie is still eating my imagination. -- "That's a damned lie! We must die anyway." --W.H. Auden, on his poem "September 1, 1939"