Message-ID: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 13:04:06 +1100 From: baden Reply-To: bchant@optushome.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien the Plunderer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.190.197 X-Trace: 1012615321 6624 203.164.190.197 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!210.49.20.119.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75991 Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? For example: the common phrase "Middle-Earth". It has been utterly co-opted by Tolkien. No matter that it is found in Beowulf and other OE poems. If you used that term practically everyone would sneer at you for a common plagiarist. The guy has taken Northern Mythology unto himself...and the sad thing is he did such a good job of Plundering there's hardly anything left for the rest of us! ;-) Sigh. Well, at least he did a damn good job with his plunder. I guess I can give him "middle-earth" (and all the rest) in return for his wonderful books. cheers, Baden -- personal site: http://www.members.optushome.com.au/bchant/ business site: http://www.inwestdesign.com ###### From: "Fingolfin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:09:35 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!7555!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76136 I suppose you're right but as you pointed out...not many other writers could make better use of that term other than Tolkien himself. All trinkets and terms that Tolkien has setup for himself he has either earned or invented. So I suppose you can just enjoy the books, and envy that he got to the idea first... -Fingolfin "baden" wrote in message news:3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au... > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? > > For example: the common phrase "Middle-Earth". It has been utterly > co-opted by Tolkien. No matter that it is found in Beowulf and other OE > poems. If you used that term practically everyone would sneer at you for > a common plagiarist. > > The guy has taken Northern Mythology unto himself...and the sad thing is > he did such a good job of Plundering there's hardly anything left for > the rest of us! ;-) > > Sigh. Well, at least he did a damn good job with his plunder. I guess I > can give him "middle-earth" (and all the rest) in return for his > wonderful books. > > cheers, > > Baden > > > -- > personal site: > http://www.members.optushome.com.au/bchant/ > > business site: > http://www.inwestdesign.com > > ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:44:43 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.0c.23 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 2 Feb 2002 08:39:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75946 baden wrote: > > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? I'm an engineer. If I come up with a good idea and patent it, someone who had the same idea but neglected to obtain a patent might be a bit depressed about the situation, but that doesn't mean I've done anything wrong! OTOH I think that if someone else were able to do a good enough job of drawing on NE dark ages lit. they probably wouldn't be charged with stealing from Tolkien. (Actually they probably would be, but the charges probably wouldn't really stick.) Johnathan -- Give the gift of life Sign your organ donor card Tell your family you want to be an organ donor ###### Message-ID: <3C5BB0B3.1E196EC4@aon.at> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:26:11 +0100 From: Georg =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6negger?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: N795P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at X-Trace: 1012641836 newsreader02.highway.telekom.at 21676 62.47.43.69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed01.highway.telekom.at!newsspool01.highway.telekom.at!newsreader02.highway.telekom.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76270 i think that e.g. neil gaiman does a very good job at untroducing northern (and other) religion and mythology into his tales, and he does it in a definitely un-tolkienish way. the "plagiarizing" happens when someone tries it in tolkiens style (and there were lots of epigones producing cheap middle-earth-spion-offs cramming up the shelves in our book stores) without having his kind of vision (or obsession?). real masterworks (in arts as much as in technology) rise the level by which any following endeavour in the same direction will be measured, that is true for sure. georg > > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? > > For example: the common phrase "Middle-Earth". It has been utterly > co-opted by Tolkien. No matter that it is found in Beowulf and other OE > poems. If you used that term practically everyone would sneer at you for > a common plagiarist. > > The guy has taken Northern Mythology unto himself...and the sad thing is > he did such a good job of Plundering there's hardly anything left for > the rest of us! ;-) > > Sigh. Well, at least he did a damn good job with his plunder. I guess I > can give him "middle-earth" (and all the rest) in return for his > wonderful books. > > cheers, > > Baden > > -- > personal site: > http://www.members.optushome.com.au/bchant/ > > business site: > http://www.inwestdesign.com ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:28:15 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.22 X-Server-Date: 2 Feb 2002 20:26:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76337 baden wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >For example: the common phrase "Middle-Earth". It has been utterly >co-opted by Tolkien. No matter that it is found in Beowulf and other OE >poems. If you used that term practically everyone would sneer at you for >a common plagiarist. That is hardly Tolkien's fault. It is the fault of people who are WAY too ignorant of their cultural heritage. He himself never was very forthright in more than one Letter about where he got the term. At least this "plunder" thread is more original than the cries of "racist" we get here all too often. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Andrew Reeves Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:07:04 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs6668112-120.austin.rr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 1012706001 14074 66.68.112.120 (3 Feb 2002 03:13:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 03:13:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75938 What upsets me about the whole thing is that I would *love* to see a movie made of the Niebelungenlied. If it were made, though, now that we've seen LoTR, then everyone would be saying "That Siegfried movie was like, totally ripped off from that ring movie with Elijah Wood." Argh. Andrew ###### From: "Yuk Tang" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:10:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.107.2 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1012720202 29476 213.122.107.2 (3 Feb 2002 07:10:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:10:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76102 "baden" wrote in message news:3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au... > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? > > For example: the common phrase "Middle-Earth". It has been utterly > co-opted by Tolkien. No matter that it is found in Beowulf and other OE > poems. If you used that term practically everyone would sneer at you for > a common plagiarist. > > The guy has taken Northern Mythology unto himself...and the sad thing is > he did such a good job of Plundering there's hardly anything left for > the rest of us! ;-) I suspect that the northern European mythology would not be as popular and well-known today if it had not been for Tolkien. Its knowledge would probably be confined to Wagner fans. As Homer is remembered for The Iliad and The Odyssey, even though they were the collations of creations by other bards, so Tolkien should be honoured for re-inventing the northern myths. He's inspired a lot of quite awful cod-fantasy as a side-result, but he can't really be blamed for those. Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Lena@wgp.org (Lena Falkenhagen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:15:18 GMT Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3c5f0d0f.3642282@news.cis.dfn.de> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-145-254-150-199.arcor-ip.net (145.254.150.199) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1012904004 44120472 145.254.150.199 (16 [5962]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dialin-145-254-150-199.arcor-ip.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75953 On 3 Feb 2002 09:20:16 -0800, ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) wrote: >Andrew Reeves wrote in message news:<3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu>... >> What upsets me about the whole thing is that I would *love* to see a movie >> made of the Niebelungenlied. If it were made, though, now that we've seen >> LoTR, then everyone would be saying "That Siegfried movie was like, totally >> ripped off from that ring movie with Elijah Wood." Argh. >> >> Andrew > >I beg to differ. Anyone who would mistake the Wagnerian Siegfried for >Frodo (or Aragorn) obviously was half-asleep during both movies, or >else is functionally brain-dead. :) Now, Turin, on the other hand... > >I quite agree that a Nibelungenlied movie would be excellent. However, >it should definately use the Norse/Wagnerian version of the myths, not >the German version which removes most of the magical elements, gives >it a historical frame in the 6th century or so, and minimizes the >curse of the hoard and so on. And I beg to correct. Wagner's Nibelungenlied is not the one to turn to first. There is a Middle German epos that is a bit older ... ;-) And as far off from history as any Wagnerian opera ... Nevertheless, a movie from *any* Nibelungen version would reduce us Germans to the Nazi ideal again (blond, fair, blue-eyed heroes). Wagner's work on the Nibelungenlied was heavily abused by the Nazi regime so that its reputation is slightly stained, this maybe being the reason that no film-maker got near it since Fritz Lang did it (in a wonderful version, by the way). The Middle German original is, on the other hand, itself mingled (and derived from) Norse mythology and, if not abused for any ideology, a wonderful epos. Lena ###### From: ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: 3 Feb 2002 09:20:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.201.172.124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012756817 31709 127.0.0.1 (3 Feb 2002 17:20:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 2002 17:20:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!294843!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76217 Andrew Reeves wrote in message news:<3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu>... > What upsets me about the whole thing is that I would *love* to see a movie > made of the Niebelungenlied. If it were made, though, now that we've seen > LoTR, then everyone would be saying "That Siegfried movie was like, totally > ripped off from that ring movie with Elijah Wood." Argh. > > Andrew I beg to differ. Anyone who would mistake the Wagnerian Siegfried for Frodo (or Aragorn) obviously was half-asleep during both movies, or else is functionally brain-dead. :) Now, Turin, on the other hand... I quite agree that a Nibelungenlied movie would be excellent. However, it should definately use the Norse/Wagnerian version of the myths, not the German version which removes most of the magical elements, gives it a historical frame in the 6th century or so, and minimizes the curse of the hoard and so on. ###### Message-ID: <3C5D71D5.AF540FD0@acm.org> Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 12:22:32 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.31 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1012756944 13611 207.199.164.31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76328 Andrew Reeves wrote: > > What upsets me about the whole thing is that I would *love* to see a movie > made of the Niebelungenlied. You sound like you don't want to count various film/broadcasts of Wagner's version? I remember when PBS aired it in the early 1980s deciding I should really sit through the whole thing once. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: 3 Feb 2002 21:10:05 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.69.133 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012799405 14888 127.0.0.1 (4 Feb 2002 05:10:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2002 05:10:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76276 Andrew Reeves wrote in message news:<3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu>... > What upsets me about the whole thing is that I would *love* to see a movie > made of the Niebelungenlied. If it were made, though, now that we've seen > LoTR, then everyone would be saying "That Siegfried movie was like, totally > ripped off from that ring movie with Elijah Wood." Argh. Actually, it was filmed, in two parts, by Fritz Lang, a very long time ago. I doubt those films, Siegfrieds Tod and Kriemhilds Rache, could be improved upon. You can probably rent them, or see them in occasional festival showings. P.S. No one ever accused Lang of stealing from Tolkien. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:41:30 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3C5F546A.BDC4F0C2@mindspring.com> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.0e.ad Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 5 Feb 2002 03:36:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75956 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > > In article <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George > wrote: > > > baden wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > > > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > > > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? > > > > I'm an engineer. If I come up with a good idea and patent it, someone > > who had the same idea but neglected to obtain a patent might be a bit > > depressed about the situation, but that doesn't mean I've done anything > > wrong! > > But at least patents run out! True, but if in the intervening time my invention becomes very popular and I build a very large company that makes them better than anyone else, it's still going to be difficult for anyone to start making them without most people thinking they are a cheap rip off of the real thing. Johnathan -- Give the gift of life Sign your organ donor card Tell your family you want to be an organ donor ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:32:05 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3C5FD0C5.B82D3DB3@gmx.de> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76282 Andrew Reeves wrote: > > What upsets me about the whole thing is that I would *love* to see a movie > made of the Niebelungenlied. If it were made, though, now that we've seen > LoTR, then everyone would be saying "That Siegfried movie was like, totally > ripped off from that ring movie with Elijah Wood." Argh. Will a silent movie do? And you can publicy humilate everyone who suspects a Tolkien rip-off in those ;-) inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: dphardy@my-deja.com (Douglas) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: 5 Feb 2002 09:32:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: <938fdfae.0202050932.233fd792@posting.google.com> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.161.0.100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012930329 2438 127.0.0.1 (5 Feb 2002 17:32:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 2002 17:32:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76262 baden wrote in message news:<3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au>... > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? > > For example: the common phrase "Middle-Earth". It has been utterly > co-opted by Tolkien. No matter that it is found in Beowulf and other OE > poems. If you used that term practically everyone would sneer at you for > a common plagiarist. > > The guy has taken Northern Mythology unto himself...and the sad thing is > he did such a good job of Plundering there's hardly anything left for > the rest of us! ;-) > > Sigh. Well, at least he did a damn good job with his plunder. I guess I > can give him "middle-earth" (and all the rest) in return for his > wonderful books. > > cheers, > > Baden What a marvellous subject line! My dreams are now haunted by 1940s pulp images along the lines of 'Conan the Philologist'. ;-) ###### From: Andrew Reeves Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:50:05 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Lines: 6 Message-ID: <3C60C40D.1936E580@mail.utexas.edu> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5CA958.F501431@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs6668112-120.austin.rr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 1012974985 8967 66.68.112.120 (6 Feb 2002 05:56:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:56:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76419 Okay, okay, I wasn't thinking of Lang's movie (whose dragon, I might add, is way cool). I was thinking more of an adaptation with current Hollywood special effects based on the Ring opera rather than the Middle German epic. Andrew ###### From: "g.skinner" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:00:11 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.236.239 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1013583847 62.252.236.239 (Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:04:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:04:07 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77354 Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message news:bjm10-21E518.12214504022002@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu... > In article <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George > wrote: > > > baden wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone else ever get slightly depressed that they can use > > > practically nothing out of Northern European dark ages literature > > > without the general reader thinking that you are plagiarizing Tolkien? > > > > I'm an engineer. If I come up with a good idea and patent it, someone > > who had the same idea but neglected to obtain a patent might be a bit > > depressed about the situation, but that doesn't mean I've done anything > > wrong! > > But at least patents run out! > A copyright will also run out eventually! ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:31:19 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C6A4E87.B62B237F@gmx.de> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.esat.net!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77454 "g.skinner" wrote: > > A copyright will also run out eventually! So far, few have, because the duration of copyright has been extended again and again. And if Disney has it's way, they won't run out -- ever. ;-) inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:05:05 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> <3C6A4E87.B62B237F@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 33-155-11-210-cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1013605592 24450 210.11.155.33 (13 Feb 2002 13:06:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:06:32 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77436 In article <3C6A4E87.B62B237F@gmx.de>, wildwusel@gmx.de says... > > > "g.skinner" wrote: > > > > A copyright will also run out eventually! > > So far, few have, because the duration of copyright has been extended > again and again. And if Disney has it's way, they won't run out -- ever. > ;-) U.S. only I assume. -- Donald Shepherd BALROG: Screw Gandalf! Where’s this Ralph Bakshi guy? - http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=534018 ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: 13 Feb 2002 21:49:49 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6ur8npt8cy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> <3C6A4E87.B62B237F@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1013633389 1244 10.0.3.2 (13 Feb 2002 20:49:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 20:49:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77468 Donald Shepherd writes: > In article <3C6A4E87.B62B237F@gmx.de>, wildwusel@gmx.de says... > > > > "g.skinner" wrote: > > > > > > A copyright will also run out eventually! > > > > So far, few have, because the duration of copyright has been extended > > again and again. And if Disney has it's way, they won't run out -- ever. > > ;-) "But we only want a scant 20 years more, and it has been 20 years since last time." What politician will have great[1] scruples against this humble request. [1] defined as: large enough to overcome $1mio campaign fund offer Law speaks (still) of an limited right. IP lawyers are named after their term Intellectial _Property_. They intend the right to become like property - permanent. Their customers (and some deluded public) already regard this as their right, to be defended by twisting the laws as much as possible. If it has not already run out of copyright, it will never run out. You can rely on that. Billions of dollars are looking towards that. > U.S. only I assume. Error. Thanks to the WIPO (U.N. world intellectual property organisation) and TRIPS (a 1996 treaty by them) the U.S. has successfully exported this policy worldwide. Dito its anti-democratic DMCA law, which criminalises the making and selling of tools (any thing that can break copy prevention or access control schemes), without any consideration whether they were intended by the maker for legitimate (playback of paid-for DVD, e-book access for the disabled, ripping CD to listen on your computer, making backup copies) or illegal (pirating) use. The criminals rule the world. The deal once was: publishers get limited monopoly, then the public gets the works. The public granted the monopoly, now the publishers are piecemeal (continuous lengthening) robbing the public of its spoils and trying to entirely rob it (copy preventions and laws declaring them inviolate). Who is surprised that respect for copyright is dropping like an lead baloon? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien the Plunderer Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:24:48 -0800 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C71EFB0.59F7DBE2@erols.com> References: <3C5B490F.BDAF0767@optushome.com.au> <3C5BA6FB.547CCDA@mindspring.com> <3C6A4E87.B62B237F@gmx.de> <6ur8npt8cy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: jsolinasNoSpam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbLzTc0kSiC4Z9ltMnwUgnqApgJbfq866K2CgX85HciWX/QNFOFtsS7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 03:35:03 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:78353 Neil Franklin wrote: > Dito its anti-democratic DMCA law, which criminalises the making and > selling of tools (any thing that can break copy prevention or access > control schemes), without any consideration whether they were intended > by the maker for legitimate (playback of paid-for DVD, e-book access > for the disabled, ripping CD to listen on your computer, making backup > copies) or illegal (pirating) use. Or academic interest, like the Russian cryptologist who broke Adobe's e-book encryption scheme and was arrested for it. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.