From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:30:05 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.80 X-Server-Date: 1 Feb 2002 01:28:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75803 At long last, about seven months after I first thought of doing it, I have my "FAQ of the Rings" on line at http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Your comments are welcome. (I'd prefer responses by e-mail, but if you fake your address then please don't send me mail. Thank you.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Jason Fisher" From: "Jason Fisher" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Lines: 28 Organization: None X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.227.128.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr11.news.prodigy.com 1012574560 ST000 206.227.128.12 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:42:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:42:40 EST X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJON_JVUSTPYN[OJNW@@YJ_ZTB\MV@BT]UEK@YUDUWYAKVUOPCW[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFDSSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C@E[A_CF\AQLDQ\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:42:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr11.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75835 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.16c3b9a9c2afbd1e98ce7a@news.mindspring.com... > At long last, about seven months after I first thought of doing it, > I have my "FAQ of the Rings" on line at > http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm > > Your comments are welcome. (I'd prefer responses by e-mail, but if > you fake your address then please don't send me mail. Thank you.) Hey Stan, I'm looking at it now. Looks like some good work here. I did see one thing, though. About whether the Nazgūl were wearing their rings, you said: "Against those quotes we must set this quote from the Council of Elrond: 'The Nine the Nazgūl keep.' [LotR II 2 (267)] You can either analyze it as inverted word order for "The Nine keep the Nazgūl [in Sauron's thralldom]", or claim that it means what it says and the other quotes were errors by Tolkien." I'd like to point out that a third option is preferable to "errors by Tolkien", which is that the statement you allude to could quite likely reflect (a) an error or (b) a generalization on the part of Gandalf, who spoke those lines. Jason ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 57 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1012581362 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:36:02 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:36:02 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Stz68-23555-O4-6173@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 3bc866be 65e2dadb d4ae8a27 fbc34a57 cb005695 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:36:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76037 [Posted and emailed.] Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) in article : > At long last, about seven months after I first thought of doing it, > I have my "FAQ of the Rings" on line at > http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Very well done. I don't have time right now to give your FAQ the detailed feedback that it deserves, but I certainly plan to. :) A couple of points now while I'm thinking of them: 1. A question that I've been meaning to add to my FAQ is "Who were the intended bearers of the Great Rings?" (or something to that effect). I see quite a few questions (on the newsgroups and by email) from people who haven't realized that the Rings were originally all made for the Elves (with a possible exception for Durin's Ring), and I think such a FAQ entry would be very useful. 2. Just because I've noticed it, a comment on the invisibility answer. We have direct evidence that the Wood Elves of Mirkwood could _not_ see people in the "world of the Unseen": otherwise, they would have noticed Bilbo at once. 3. I've never been happy with either of the "logical" arguments that you present against the Nazgul wearing their Rings. Frodo was trying to avoid being stabbed on Weathertop; he wasn't writing a society column on the Nazgul's choice of wardrobe. On the other hand, Galadriel made a point of showing Frodo her Ring, or at least that has been my reading. As for the Witch-king's Ring, I don't recall any discussion of people gathering up his mace, sword, armor, or other personal items, either; a Great Ring would certainly be more significant, but it's not inconceivable that it simply wasn't mentioned (or even found, for that matter). 4. The fact that the Nine were destroyed along with the remaining Seven (whatever that means) could be additional support for Sauron holding all of them together. 5. Are you sure the One allowed Sauron to "control" the thoughts of the other Ringbearers? I haven't looked at the appropriate passage from Silm. recently, but I've thought that the One might have allowed its user to bypass the natural ability of a person to close their mind to "telepathy" (as described in the Osanwe-kenta)... meaning that Sauron could "insert" thoughts, but that with vigilance the other Ringbearers could recognize them as foreign. (I've wondered if that was how the Elves were first aware of what Sauron was trying to do to them.) On another note, there is a small amount of overlap between your FAQ and mine (and the Loos FAQs). I certainly plan to link to your FAQ eventually, but it might be good to figure out whether that sort of overlap is a problem. (There's even more overlap with some of the FAQ additions that I've had on my to do list, but I may rethink the need for those now. :) ) At any rate, very well done, and thank you! :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Sean Murphy" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:31:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.198.147.67 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: newshog.newsread.com 1012584669 209.198.147.67 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:31:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:31:09 EST Organization: PrismNet, Inc. (prismnet.com) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.135.12.170.MISMATCH!news.uchicago.edu!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!POSTED.newshog.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76112 > 3. I've never been happy with either of the "logical" arguments that > you present against the Nazgul wearing their Rings. Frodo was > trying to avoid being stabbed on Weathertop; he wasn't writing a > society column on the Nazgul's choice of wardrobe. On the other > hand, Galadriel made a point of showing Frodo her Ring, or at least > that has been my reading. As for the Witch-king's Ring, I don't > recall any discussion of people gathering up his mace, sword, > armor, or other personal items, either; a Great Ring would > certainly be more significant, but it's not inconceivable that it > simply wasn't mentioned (or even found, for that matter). > "So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood. `Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper." > 4. The fact that the Nine were destroyed along with the remaining > Seven (whatever that means) could be additional support for Sauron > holding all of them together. I think the "remaining" seven is in reference to the fact that Sauron had only recovered three of the Dwarven rings, and the other four had been consumed by dragons. > 5. Are you sure the One allowed Sauron to "control" the thoughts of > the other Ringbearers? I haven't looked at the appropriate passage > from Silm. recently, but I've thought that the One might have > allowed its user to bypass the natural ability of a person to close > their mind to "telepathy" (as described in the > Osanwe-kenta)... meaning that Sauron could "insert" thoughts, but > that with vigilance the other Ringbearers could recognize them as > foreign. (I've wondered if that was how the Elves were first aware > of what Sauron was trying to do to them.) > "And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them. But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings." ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:59:23 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.6a X-Server-Date: 1 Feb 2002 22:01:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76369 Jason Fisher wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > About whether the Nazgūl were wearing their rings, you said: > >"Against those quotes we must set this quote from the Council of Elrond: >'The Nine the Nazgūl keep.' [LotR II 2 (267)] You can either analyze it as >inverted word order for "The Nine keep the Nazgūl [in Sauron's thralldom]", >or claim that it means what it says and the other quotes were errors by >Tolkien." > >I'd like to point out that a third option is preferable to "errors by >Tolkien", which is that the statement you allude to could quite likely >reflect (a) an error or (b) a generalization on the part of Gandalf, who >spoke those lines. Good explanation. I will add it (with credit to you); thanks! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:07:22 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 21-221-8-203-cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1012619317 24255 203.8.221.21 (2 Feb 2002 03:08:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 03:08:37 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76244 In article , taser8@hotmail.com says... > > 5. Are you sure the One allowed Sauron to "control" the thoughts of > > the other Ringbearers? I haven't looked at the appropriate passage > > from Silm. recently, but I've thought that the One might have > > allowed its user to bypass the natural ability of a person to close > > their mind to "telepathy" (as described in the > > Osanwe-kenta)... meaning that Sauron could "insert" thoughts, but > > that with vigilance the other Ringbearers could recognize them as > > foreign. (I've wondered if that was how the Elves were first aware > > of what Sauron was trying to do to them.) > > > "And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were > done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very > thoughts of those that wore them. But the Elves were not so lightly to be > caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware > of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, > and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their > rings." To me that seems to be in direct conflict with the following from the LotR: "[Sauron] forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master. But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three that he had made." - The Council of Elrond, FotR. Did the Elves put on their Rings or didn't they? According to Elrond, Celebrimbor still had possession of the Three when Sauron made the one, and hid them, whereas in the Silmarillion the above appears to contradict this. The only explanation I can think of is that the above is referring to either the lesser rings, or the Nine and the Seven. Gandalf does not seem overly concerned about Frodo's ring being a lesser ring (in the Shadow of the Past), other than that they were "to my mind dangerous for mortals", so presumably the bearers of these cannot be dominated by Sauron (I'm assuming that Gandalf would be rather more upset if Frodo was about to be controlled by the Dark Lord). Also, if there was a known link between the lesser rings and Sauron, then the rings would be dangerous in not just Gandalf's mind, but every rational being. This leaves the possibility that the Elves were wearing the other sixteen Great Rings. I cannot find anything to prevent this possibility (though it is likely that evidence does exist, especially since I don't have every relevant quote memorised :) ), and in the passage in the Silmarillion it merely says that "Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power", without mentioning where he recovered them from. So, to me at least, it would seem that the above refers to the sixteen. The point of all this? None really. I originally thought the first two quotes contradicted each other, but having the Elves wearing the sixteen is a reasonable explanation. I just don't want all this effort to go to waste :). -- Donald Shepherd ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 15 Message-ID: <2gY68.146$O4.8417@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1012682878 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:47:58 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:47:58 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 2gY68-34869-O4-8682@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: bff324d4 63c45655 e1b76f31 96b66c10 d1a8bb8d Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 20:47:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76028 Quoth "Sean Murphy" in article : [I said:] > > 4. The fact that the Nine were destroyed along with the remaining > > Seven (whatever that means)... > I think the "remaining" seven is in reference to the fact that > Sauron had only recovered three of the Dwarven rings, and the other > four had been consumed by dragons. Whoops... I was quite unclear there. :) My "whatever that means" was intended to refer to "destroyed", not to "remaining", but that's utterly unclear in what I wrote. Sorry for the confusion. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:39:06 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <2gY68.146$O4.8417@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.c8 X-Server-Date: 3 Feb 2002 20:37:19 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76332 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >[I said:] >> > 4. The fact that the Nine were destroyed along with the remaining >> > Seven (whatever that means)... > >Whoops... I was quite unclear there. :) My "whatever that means" was >intended to refer to "destroyed", not to "remaining", but that's >utterly unclear in what I wrote. Sorry for the confusion. :) Oh well -- it prompted me to clarify my answer, and also give some details about the retaking of Thrain's Ring. :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Jason Fisher" From: "Jason Fisher" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Lines: 23 Organization: None X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.227.128.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr11.news.prodigy.com 1013011783 ST000 206.227.128.12 (Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:09:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:09:43 EST X-UserInfo1: OX[QRWSESB^US]@YKBH\OQMAPJYREQLIQQ]ZMVMHQAVTUZ]CLNTCPFK[WDXDHV[K^FCGJCJLPF_D_NCC@FUG^Q\DINVAXSLIFXYJSSCCALP@PB@\OS@BITWAH\CQZKJMMD^SJA^NXA\GVLSRBD^M_NW_F[YLVTWIGAXAQBOATKBBQRXECDFDMQ\DZFUE@\JM Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:09:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!nntp.abs.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr11.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76399 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.16c4d9c7f490a4fa98ce8b@news.mindspring.com... > Jason Fisher wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > About whether the Nazgūl were wearing their rings, you said: > > > >"Against those quotes we must set this quote from the Council of Elrond: > >'The Nine the Nazgūl keep.' [LotR II 2 (267)] You can either analyze it as > >inverted word order for "The Nine keep the Nazgūl [in Sauron's thralldom]", > >or claim that it means what it says and the other quotes were errors by > >Tolkien." > > > >I'd like to point out that a third option is preferable to "errors by > >Tolkien", which is that the statement you allude to could quite likely > >reflect (a) an error or (b) a generalization on the part of Gandalf, who > >spoke those lines. > > Good explanation. I will add it (with credit to you); thanks! Hehe, thanks! :-) ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 17:55:51 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 76 Message-ID: <3C616017.4BC8B67D@ifi.uio.no> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: galgopi.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1013014553 18443 129.240.65.254 (6 Feb 2002 16:55:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Feb 2002 16:55:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76392 Donald Shepherd wrote: > In article , taser8@hotmail.com > says... > > > 5. Are you sure the One allowed Sauron to "control" the thoughts of > > > the other Ringbearers? I haven't looked at the appropriate passage > > > from Silm. recently, but I've thought that the One might have > > > allowed its user to bypass the natural ability of a person to close > > > their mind to "telepathy" (as described in the > > > Osanwe-kenta)... meaning that Sauron could "insert" thoughts, but > > > that with vigilance the other Ringbearers could recognize them as > > > foreign. (I've wondered if that was how the Elves were first aware > > > of what Sauron was trying to do to them.) I think it's said somewhere (possibly by Gandalf or Elrond at the Council?) that Celebrimbor and/or the other Elven-smiths heard Sauron speak the Ring-inscription when he first put on the One. That said, I'm not sure whether this was meant to be taken literally or as poetic licence. > > > > > > "And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were > > done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very > > thoughts of those that wore them. But the Elves were not so lightly to be > > caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware > > of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, > > and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their > > rings." > > To me that seems to be in direct conflict with the following from the > LotR: > "[Sauron] forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be > their master. But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three that > he had made." - The Council of Elrond, FotR. > > Did the Elves put on their Rings or didn't they? According to Elrond, > Celebrimbor still had possession of the Three when Sauron made the one, > and hid them, whereas in the Silmarillion the above appears to contradict > this. The only explanation I can think of is that the above is referring > to either the lesser rings, or the Nine and the Seven. I'm sorry, I don't see the problem (maybe it's me...). Celebrimbor & co. had the Rings when Sauron first put on the One. The Elves then took them off, put them in a box or something, and hid them. There's no contradiction between "taking off" something and retaining "possession" of it. > > > Gandalf does not seem overly concerned about Frodo's ring being a lesser > ring (in the Shadow of the Past), other than that they were "to my mind > dangerous for mortals", so presumably the bearers of these cannot be > dominated by Sauron (I'm assuming that Gandalf would be rather more upset > if Frodo was about to be controlled by the Dark Lord). Also, if there > was a known link between the lesser rings and Sauron, then the rings > would be dangerous in not just Gandalf's mind, but every rational being. Well, I suppose one explanation would be that the lesser Rings weren't dangerous (or less so than the Greater ones) _in and of themselves_ - but if Sauron had the One, he could exert control over those bearers as well. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: m_zalar@hotmail.com (Michael Zalar) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page Date: 7 Feb 2002 00:19:12 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.109.22.73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013069953 29163 127.0.0.1 (7 Feb 2002 08:19:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 2002 08:19:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76558 > "So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on > the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like > polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled > as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the > ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood. > `Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, > and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, > and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the > finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring > of Adamant, and I am its keeper." arrrggghhh.... all of a sudden I have a song going through my head.... cant help myself... after the One is destroyed... "This diamond ring doesn't shine for me anymore And this diamond ring doesn't mean what it did before.." and I know the song is gonna run through my head now for the rest of the day. Michael