From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 9 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.85 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1012147262 208.170.95.85 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:01:02 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:01:02 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74612 Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete crap? Admit it -- you know you did. What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? DS ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 19 Organization: home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:36:25 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.123.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1012149352 80.1.123.142 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:35:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:35:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!lon1-news.nildram.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74594 "Zark" wrote in message news:a319ub$14mhht$1@ID-115225.news.dfncis.de... > > "David Salo" wrote in message > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Sword of Shannara, remembered vaguely from my early teens, as the worst book ever. ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:51:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012150309 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:51:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:51:49 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!44731!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75697 In article <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>, David Salo wrote: > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks. Basically, it substituted a sword for the One Ring, and had nothing original going for it. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:51:59 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.153.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1012150112 24.141.153.93 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:48:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:48:32 EST Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!41798!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75073 Without a doubt, the Dragonlance Cronicles. Written by children, admired by fools. David Salo wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:52:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012150361 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:52:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:52:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!3809082!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75668 In article , "teepee" wrote: > "Zark" wrote in message > news:a319ub$14mhht$1@ID-115225.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "David Salo" wrote in message > > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > > > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by > those > > > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > > > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually > complete > > > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Sword of Shannara, remembered vaguely from my early teens, as the worst > book ever. Not only that, but it was such an OBVIOUS Tolkien ripoff... -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:15:34 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3c54358d.1663088@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-147.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74885 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:51:49 GMT, Orac posted the following: >In article <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>, > David Salo wrote: > >> Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and >> read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those >> blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since >> Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete >> crap? Admit it -- you know you did. >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >> flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > >The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks. > >Basically, it substituted a sword for the One Ring, and had nothing >original going for it. However, I found that the next two books (Elfstone and Wishsong) were a lot more original and quite good. I still don't like Sword, though. Anyone else agree? -Chris ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:16:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012151771 65.33.106.28 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:16:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:16:11 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75740 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? My wife (then girlfriend) convinced me that if I loved Tolkien, I'd really enjoy David Eddings. UGH. It was like eating shoe leather after Prime Rib. -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### From: "MagusDune" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 09:17:53 -0800 Lines: 12 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <3c5435ad_2@news.newsgroups.com> X-Authenticated-User: realtyche X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Path-Stamp: news.newsfeeds.com Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 90,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.newsgroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75003 Sword of Shannara..to me, it was an almost scene for scene rip-off of LoTR. -- MagusDune/Tyche A firm Believer in the Philosophy that Rodents Rock! David Salo wrote in message <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==----- ###### From: "Norseman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.172.15.245 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:19:33 MET X-Trace: news4.ulv.nextra.no 1012151974 146.172.15.245 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:19:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news4.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75200 "pawn" skrev i melding news:AbW48.1161$l5.49545@read2.cgocable.net... > Without a doubt, the Dragonlance Cronicles. Written by children, admired by > fools. Count me in on that one. Beyond some comic relief courtesy of Fizban that actually made me chuckle out loud, this was a travesty. And unlike the LoTR: FoTR movie, this one gets worse if you come back for seconds. (I got the set as a well intended gift a couple of years ago, so I felt I had to red them again.) ###### From: ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 27 Jan 2002 09:25:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.201.172.124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012152315 22954 127.0.0.1 (27 Jan 2002 17:25:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 17:25:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75518 David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS I was stupid, and was suckered in by a blurb on the first volume of Robert Jordan's _Wheel of Time_, with all sorts of reviews claiming that he was the best since Tolkien. I realized, while reading it (I was fifteen at the time, and had just finished _The Silmarillion_ and was looking for more Tolkien-related stuff), that the only reason that he was at all good was that he was not merely imitating, but plagarizing Tolkien. Every original (non-Tolkien) idea in the novel was idiotic, jarring, or otherwise stupid. (Fantasy ought not be built around a pseudo-Hindu metaphysical system like the "Wheel of Time" idea; it just doesn't fit the genre.) I haven't read any post-Tolkien fantasy since. However, I did decide to go backwards, and read some of Tolkien's sources -- medieval chansons de geste, epics, assorted mythologies. Much better stuff, and actually original as well. ###### From: paulh Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <6he85u8qvdm24cdiusqp32tatuiq6hnkh7@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:32:09 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-qnZ4xsBXJiaz5MzxvCVy8VfytdHi+ZPTeiGqzUkacilj6cLlUmWFgK15J1NMfFjU+KslLqxaDzufCPN!9X3kORo/QOI60JsHW3WtrN14E9VPml32RWdoqZ4bwi7jLrZcscQPuRuJ0QeZWB/O3uiRVA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:32:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75692 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and >read some other fantasy books? Yes.. many many years ago... > Were you, perhaps, attracted by those >blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since >Tolkien!"? They ALL had that..didn't they... > Did you then find out that the book was actually complete >crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Terry Brooks...Sword of Shannara (SoS.. no coincidence!) cos its impossible to read without thinking of each every & scene in LOTR he had directly copied... paulh ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 12 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:47:22 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.12.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012154705 62.59.12.203 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:05:05 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:05:05 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74965 David Salo wrote: > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Sword of Shannara. I could actually name the characters after those of LOTR. I never touched a book from whotsname again, although I hear that the others are less of a mockery. Greetings, T. ###### From: "Chris Fazio" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:53:32 -0500 Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY+9B5KPy/AnADGGLd0XQIE0bQATSndgFTr5zjqwySJChoglYkOWEeI X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 17:53:41 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!3496315!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74738 I'll admit that the Shannara books smack of major Tolkien influence. But I have enjoyed the series. Definitely no where near the same league as LotR but great character development and captivating story line. Chris "Yet he can see through a brick wall in time. (As they say in Bree)" "teepee" wrote in message news:I%V48.36740$Ph2.6165922@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com... > > "Zark" wrote in message > news:a319ub$14mhht$1@ID-115225.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "David Salo" wrote in message > > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > > > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by > those > > > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > > > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually > complete > > > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Sword of Shannara, remembered vaguely from my early teens, as the worst > book ever. > ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 17 Organization: home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:02:16 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.123.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1012154506 80.1.123.142 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:01:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:01:46 GMT X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:02:01 GMT (newsr2.u-net.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!newsr2.u-net.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74644 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, comparable to Tolkien at his best tp ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1012156190 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:29:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:29:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:29:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75784 Worst: I was, fortunately, warned off the Terry Brooks pap, but many people who's opinions I usually respect directed me to the Robert Asprin Myth series. So I read the first one, and it wasn't very good. The jokes were too obvious, the writing too simple. But it sometimes takes an author more than one book to get up to speed, so I purchased and read the next two, and they didn't do a thing for me. I don't understand why people think they're funny. I have tried the Wellworld novels, and liked them even less. I wonder about people sometimes. Best: *Some* of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. I was fortunate to have read Wyrd Sisters first; going back to the beginning of the series, I found that Pratchett didn't really hit his stride until Mort. He has stumbled a few times since then, but many of the Discworld novels (Witches Abroad, Soul Music, Lords and Ladies, Hogfather) are excellent. The first Amber series. The second series was not as good, but the first was some of the best fantasy I've ever read. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:44:53 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a151.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1012157129 20654 212.205.240.151 (27 Jan 2002 18:45:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:45:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!leech.it-austria.net!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.netway.at!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74810 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Guy Gavriel Kay's first two volumes of "The Fionavar Tapestry" Urgh! With names, sounds and setting reminiscent of Tolkien more than *any* other fantasy I've read (and that's saying quite a bit), with a bit of multiple worlds thrown in reminiscent of Narnia (except that there's a bit of cultural supremacy or something given to the importance of Fionavar - "the only world that matters" or some such crap), with the addition of Arthurian elements (regardless of whether they fit in or not - the author must have been an Arthurian fan and decided "Hey, they are public domain, why not use them?!"), and with a plot that falls apart once you give it a second glance. It's got rape though. That ought to please Mallron. Aris Katsaris ###### From: David Friedman Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:56:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.92.185.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 1012157807 66.92.185.229 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:56:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:56:47 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75729 In article , ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) wrote: > However, I did decide to go backwards, and read some of Tolkien's > sources -- medieval chansons de geste, epics, assorted mythologies. > Much better stuff, and actually original as well. Or at least not plagiarized from Tolkien. -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com/ ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.31.219 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012157971 212.151.31.219 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:59:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:59:31 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-31-219.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:01:44 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!513476!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75210 David Salo wrote: > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and >read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those >blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since >Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete >crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. Öjevind ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <4gY48.2154$IY5.17164502@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Trace: Rn6JVy312NjttKFFHSExR7E4BxD3lr2RWF/m/9IeDuehQ7izyLfaSuA5U4O32m41ZScTBYepezoP!FKCnWVDQBagt/hibMQ1PrA8= X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:09:52 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:09:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!41177!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75530 teepee wrote in message news:I%V48.36740$Ph2.6165922@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com... > > "Zark" wrote in message > news:a319ub$14mhht$1@ID-115225.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "David Salo" wrote in message > > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > > > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by > those > > > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > > > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually > complete > > > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Sword of Shannara, remembered vaguely from my early teens, as the worst > book ever. > Ditto. -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html ###### From: "basic.bs.webusenet.com" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:23:58 EST Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:28:37 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75769 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:n6Y48.6766$O5.16962@nntpserver.swip.net... > David Salo wrote: > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > >read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > >blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > >Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > >crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? I'm afraid I don't remeber the author's name, but the book, I believe was something like "Maia". It was as thick as a dictionary, and basically not much more than soft porn. My mother gave it to me, since she knew I liked fantasy. It *did* have one redeeming quality--it was worth a good bit of credit in fantasy/sci fi at the used book store. Barbara > > > A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > > Öjevind > > ###### From: "dornford" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.160.27.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr21.news.prodigy.com 1012159806 ST000 64.160.27.190 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:30:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:30:06 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: OHXMBW_DSZUWCTH]^JKBOW@@YJ_ZTB\MV@BL\QMIWIWTEPIB_NVUAH_[BL[\IRKIANGGJBFNJF_DOLSCENSY^U@FRFUEXR@KFXYDBPWBCDQJA@X_DCBHXR[C@\EOKCJLED_SZ@RMWYXYWE_P@\\GOIW^@SYFFSWHFIXMADO@^[ADPRPETLBJ]RDGENSKQQZN Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:30:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr21.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74550 > > Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's > chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, > comparable to Tolkien at his best > As long as you didn't mind the miderable main character, and the generally miserable world and story line... Ah - I think I'm confusing them with the equally horrible and miserable series about the executioner, forget (mercifully) who wrote them. dornford ###### From: "dornford" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.160.27.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr21.news.prodigy.com 1012160090 ST000 64.160.27.190 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:34:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:34:50 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDONQZUWCQPYAROLOFTBTR\B@GXLN@GZ_GYO^BSZUSAANVUEAE[YETZPIWWI[FCIZA^NBFXZ_D[BFNTCNVPDTNTKHWXKB@X^B_OCJLPZ@ET_O[G\XSG@E\G[ZKVLBL^CJINM@I_KVIOR\T_M_AW_M[_BWU_HFA_]@A_A^SGFAUDE_DFTMQPFWVW[QPJN Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:34:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!15888!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr21.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74548 I second the Sword Of Shanarra as worst, but I'd like to vote for Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy as the best. He is a very witty writer, and his plots are original. His handling of his character's dietary adventures are worth reading just by themselves. A quote from memory: The Royal Duchess is advising the young princess upon expected standards of behaviour at her first Royal banquet. "... And do not laugh at any errors in deportment by another - and most particularly, do not break wind yourself. Nothing is more conspicuous than a farting princess." dornford "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1012160943 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:49:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:49:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:49:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75674 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:01:44 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >David Salo wrote: > >> Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and >>read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those >>blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since >>Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete >>crap? Admit it -- you know you did. >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >>flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > >A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > >Öjevind > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1012161288 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:54:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:54:48 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:54:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75765 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:30:06 GMT, "dornford" wrote: >> >> Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's >> chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, >> comparable to Tolkien at his best >> >As long as you didn't mind the miderable main character, and the generally >miserable world and story line... Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed going in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. Yeesh. >Ah - I think I'm confusing them with the equally horrible and miserable >series about the executioner, forget (mercifully) who wrote them. You're probably thinking of "the book of the new sun" by Gene Wolfe. Enthusiastically recommended by my karate instructor, I found it extremely dull. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:58:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012161512 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:58:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:58:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75701 In article , Ronald O. Christian wrote: > Worst: > > I was, fortunately, warned off the Terry Brooks pap, but many people > who's opinions I usually respect directed me to the Robert Asprin Myth > series. So I read the first one, and it wasn't very good. The jokes > were too obvious, the writing too simple. But it sometimes takes an > author more than one book to get up to speed, so I purchased and read > the next two, and they didn't do a thing for me. I don't understand > why people think they're funny. I don't know. I kind of liked the Myth series. Yes, the jokes were sometimes a bit too obviou. However, it was a breezy, lightweight piece of mind candy, perfect for when one is in a mood for something not too challenging. A series I really didn't care for is the Xanth books by Piers Anthony. I sort of liked the first two books in the series ("A Spell for Chameleon" and "The Source of Magic"), but the series went rapidly downhill from there. I think I made it out to the fourth book before giving up on this series. Since I'm ragging on Piers Anthony, I also didn't like his Incarnations of Immortality series. Once again, it was a case of the first book ("On a Pale Horse") being pretty good, but then the series rapidly degenerating after that. I stopped after the third book. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:59:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012161572 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:59:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:59:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!hub1.meganetnews.com!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75649 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > David Salo wrote: > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > >read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > >blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > >Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > >crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. But that could describe many books by Piers Anthony. Which one are you talking about? :-) -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:01:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012161706 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:01:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:01:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!64.245.249.27.MISMATCH!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75643 In article <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, "dornford" wrote: > > > > Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's > > chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, > > comparable to Tolkien at his best > > > As long as you didn't mind the miderable main character, and the generally > miserable world and story line... > > Ah - I think I'm confusing them with the equally horrible and miserable > series about the executioner, forget (mercifully) who wrote them. If you're talking about Gene Wolfe's series, I'm inclined to agree. I started reading it because of all the critical acclaim it got as such a fantastic fantasy series. When I actually read the first couple of books, though, I just couldn't understand what the buzz was about. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1012161870 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:04:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:04:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:04:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75614 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:58:32 GMT, Orac wrote: >In article , > Ronald O. Christian wrote: >I don't know. I kind of liked the Myth series. Yes, the jokes were >sometimes a bit too obviou. However, it was a breezy, lightweight piece >of mind candy, perfect for when one is in a mood for something not too >challenging. To each his/her/it's own. >A series I really didn't care for is the Xanth books by Piers Anthony. I >sort of liked the first two books in the series ("A Spell for Chameleon" >and "The Source of Magic"), but the series went rapidly downhill from >there. I think I made it out to the fourth book before giving up on this >series. I agree completely. The first two were actually pretty good, the rest pap, with the possible exception of Crewl Lye. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 32 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:07:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012162041 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:07:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:07:21 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75688 In article , Ronald O. Christian wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:01:44 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > >David Salo wrote: > > > >> Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > >>read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > >>blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > >>Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > >>crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >>flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > > > >A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > > > >Öjevind > > > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 37 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:08:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012162094 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:08:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:08:14 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75652 In article , Ronald O. Christian wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:30:06 GMT, "dornford" > wrote: > > >> > >> Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's > >> chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, > >> comparable to Tolkien at his best > >> > >As long as you didn't mind the miderable main character, and the generally > >miserable world and story line... > > Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed going > in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. > Yeesh. Yes, but that was part of its charm, wasn't it? > >Ah - I think I'm confusing them with the equally horrible and miserable > >series about the executioner, forget (mercifully) who wrote them. > > You're probably thinking of "the book of the new sun" by Gene Wolfe. > Enthusiastically recommended by my karate instructor, I found it > extremely dull. Ditto. I never understood why the critics seemed to think it was some great masterpiece of fantasy writing. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 12 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:20:34 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.0.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012169229 62.59.0.229 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:07:09 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:07:09 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74913 Ronald O. Christian wrote: >The first Amber series. The second series was not as good, but the >first was some of the best fantasy I've ever read. Right on the head. The second was so bad that I began wondering about whether both had been written by the same author. The first series is extremely captivating, but I never considered it very Tolkienish. Greetings, T. ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:32:22 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.0.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012169229 62.59.0.229 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:07:09 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:07:09 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74915 Ronald O. Christian wrote: >Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed going >in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. >Yeesh. I read it once, and never came near to it again. Wait, I did once, to sell it. It was good; I just couldn't stand it. "Wake up, man!" Oh, it did have rape in it. >You're probably thinking of "the book of the new sun" by Gene Wolfe. >Enthusiastically recommended by my karate instructor, I found it >extremely dull. I didn't think it dull, I just thought that Gene Wolfe must be a very unpleasant person. Oh, and there is W.K. Wrenn, I think he's called. Something with a swan (says enough). Stupid. Now I was to recommend an excellent fantasy-series but I forgot both author's name and book title. Hmm. Might come back to you. Greetings, T. ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:39:29 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 8 Message-ID: <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-665.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75361 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: |Admit it -- you know you did. Actually, I didn't. I avoid any books that are "like" Tolkien, or "reminiscent of" Tolkien, or "better than" Tolkien. After you;ve read the best, there is no place else to go except down. I realized that very early on. ###### Reply-To: "john thrum" From: "john thrum" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:46:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.231.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1012164372 209.245.231.68 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:46:12 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:46:12 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:46:12 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74792 I happened to have like the Sword of Shannara series. My vote would go for the Ouroboros series by David Eddings. john thrum "teepee" wrote in message news:I%V48.36740$Ph2.6165922@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com... > > "Zark" wrote in message > news:a319ub$14mhht$1@ID-115225.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "David Salo" wrote in message > > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > > > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by > those > > > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > > > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually > complete > > > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Sword of Shannara, remembered vaguely from my early teens, as the worst > book ever. > > ###### Reply-To: "john thrum" From: "john thrum" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:50:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.231.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1012164634 209.245.231.68 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:50:34 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:50:34 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:50:34 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74805 "teepee" wrote in message news:egX48.37123$Ph2.6240916@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com... > snip > Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's > chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, > comparable to Tolkien at his best > The Covenant series were pretty good, but in my humble opinion, George RR Martin's series is very, very good . . . without being an obvious ripoff of LOTR or any other fantasy series. john thrum ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <03_48.20950$ag5.2015447@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:12:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.99.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1012165948 216.175.99.142 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:12:28 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:12:28 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:12:28 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74733 David Salo wrote: > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Since what makes the really bad ones so bad is their total lack of individualized character separate from their chewed-up little Tolkien bits, the nature of their badness prevents me from distinguishing one from the others as the very worst. But I suppose Jordan must win some kind of prize for carrying such crap to such extraordinary lengths -- and he's just one man, not like the sweatshop typists that crank out the TSR franchises. ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:18:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012166334 65.33.106.28 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:18:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:18:54 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-x2.support.nl!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75679 "Paul Kellaway" wrote in message news:a31hqa$14il5i$1@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de... > And you married her! Ah yes, but my wife's middle name is Arwen. (I kid you not. My sister-in-law's middle name is Galadriel. Yes, her parents were *that* much into Tolkien). -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <%a_48.465240$oj3.87839681@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:20:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012166459 65.33.106.28 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:20:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:20:59 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75706 "Orac" wrote in message news:Orac-360CBC.15071727012002@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net... > In article , > Ronald O. Christian wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:01:44 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" > > wrote: > > > > >David Salo wrote: > > > > > >> Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > > >>read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > > >>blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > > >>Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > > >>crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > >>flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > > > > > > >A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > > > > > >Öjevind > > > > > > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) It's a toss up who's the Lionel Fanthorpe for the new millenium - Robert Jordan or Piers Anthony. -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:27:31 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <03_48.20950$ag5.2015447@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1012166851 25964 129.241.210.168 (27 Jan 2002 21:27:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:27:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!hub1.nntpserver.com!uio.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75009 In article <03_48.20950$ag5.2015447@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Dylan Bryan-Dolman wrote: >David Salo wrote: >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >> flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > >Since what makes the really bad ones so bad is their total lack of >individualized character separate from their chewed-up little Tolkien bits, >the nature of their badness prevents me from distinguishing one from the >others as the very worst. The very worst stuff isn't that which is shamelessly ripped off from Tolkien. The very worst stuff is that which is shamelessly ripped off from *that* stuff. Third-rate Terry Brooks wannabes, probably starring somebody's kewl D&D character. And that's the worst stuff that gets *published*; at the bottom of the slushpiles sit even worse things by far. >But I suppose Jordan must win some kind of prize >for carrying such crap to such extraordinary lengths -- and he's just one >man, not like the sweatshop typists that crank out the TSR franchises. He's not really *that* bad, he's just being relentlessly mediocre at great length. Or at least he was when I gave up his stuff a few years ago; the first few of his books were actually pretty readable as such things go. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:49:00 GMT Organization: A.B.T-C Thought Police K-9 squad Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hc65243c6.dhcp.vt.edu X-Trace: solaris.cc.vt.edu 1012167993 20718 198.82.67.198 (27 Jan 2002 21:46:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:46:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74561 On 27 Jan 2002 09:25:15 -0800, ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) wrote: >I was stupid, and was suckered in by a blurb on the first volume of >Robert Jordan's _Wheel of Time_, with all sorts of reviews claiming >that he was the best since Tolkien. I realized, while reading it (I >was fifteen at the time, and had just finished _The Silmarillion_ and >was looking for more Tolkien-related stuff), that the only reason that >he was at all good was that he was not merely imitating, but >plagarizing Tolkien. Anyone that reads past the first volume would realize that the series is a major departure from Tolkien, and that the first book is one of the weakest. ###### Message-ID: <3C5477AA.2A617988@acm.org> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:56:59 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.207 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1012168607 2635 207.199.164.207 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75599 teepee wrote: > > "Zark" wrote in message > news:a319ub$14mhht$1@ID-115225.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "David Salo" wrote in message > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Sword of Shannara, remembered vaguely from my early teens, as the worst > book ever. Yes! The original ads for the first Sword of Shannara said "This is the book to read while you're waiting for the Silmarillion to be published!" About two chapters into _Sword_ I groaned to myself "And I believed them!" -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: "rodney byman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:00:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.173.144.134 X-Trace: news0.telusplanet.net 1012168854 142.173.144.134 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:00:54 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:00:54 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!news0.telusplanet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75351 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. I only ever read half of the first book but that was enough to convince me that I had better places to spend my money (like buying a new copy of LotR to replace the copy I had that was falling apart). ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <77u85uc0eh3nioeie94e3ki7mdrfc5j3m4@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1012169011 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:03:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:03:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:03:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75463 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:08:14 GMT, Orac wrote: >In article , > Ronald O. Christian wrote: > >> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:30:06 GMT, "dornford" >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's >> >> chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, >> >> comparable to Tolkien at his best >> >> >> >As long as you didn't mind the miderable main character, and the generally >> >miserable world and story line... >> >> Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed going >> in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. >> Yeesh. > >Yes, but that was part of its charm, wasn't it? I suppose. Sometimes a writer can gain notoriety by picking a single factor and then absolutely wallowing in it for thousands of pages. Piers Anthony with puns, Steve Donaldson with crushing depression. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1012169122 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:05:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:05:22 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:05:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75747 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:07:21 GMT, Orac wrote: >> Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern >> author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > >Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) Never having read the Wheel of Time, I cannot say. Sounds like I should avoid it, though. :-) Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <8eu85u4qiedjg3jthbv0vt0gefa7bv33av@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1012169310 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:08:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:08:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:08:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75637 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:39:29 -0500, Boris Badenov wrote: >On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: > >|Admit it -- you know you did. > >Actually, I didn't. I avoid any books that are "like" Tolkien, or "reminiscent of" >Tolkien, or "better than" Tolkien. After you;ve read the best, there is no place else to >go except down. I realized that very early on. Oh, that's a little too much. Tolkien's novels are good, but "the best"? An indication that one might spend a little more quality time at the local library. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1012169429 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:10:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:10:29 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:10:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75496 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:18:54 GMT, "Bill Silvey" wrote: > > >"Paul Kellaway" wrote in message >news:a31hqa$14il5i$1@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de... > >> And you married her! > >Ah yes, but my wife's middle name is Arwen. (I kid you not. My >sister-in-law's middle name is Galadriel. Yes, her parents were *that* much >into Tolkien). Poor kid.... Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1012169910 12.224.252.154 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:18:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:18:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:18:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!204.127.161.4!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75752 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:20:34 +0100, "Taemon" wrote: >Ronald O. Christian wrote: > >>The first Amber series. The second series was not as good, but the >>first was some of the best fantasy I've ever read. > >Right on the head. The second was so bad that I began wondering about >whether both had been written by the same author. The first series is >extremely captivating, but I never considered it very Tolkienish. I don't consider it Tolkienish either, but it was undoubtedly fantasy (despite the presence of automatic weapons :-)) and very good. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: "James H Banks" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.219.195.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 1012170486 ST000 64.219.195.30 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:28:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:28:06 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJON_C\WPFP\E[GDM^\BZJ]T@FLNLBWLOOAFWIWTEPIB_NVUAH_[BL[\IRKIANGGJBFNJF_DOLSCENSY^U@FRFUEXR@KFXYDBPWBCDQJA@X_DCBHXR[C@\EOKCJLED_SZ@RMWYXYWE_P@\\GOIW^@SYFFSWHFIXMADO@^[ADPRPETLBJ]RDGENSKQQZN Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:28:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74518 Bill Silvey wrote in message news:29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > > "Paul Kellaway" wrote in message > news:a31hqa$14il5i$1@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de... > > > And you married her! > > Ah yes, but my wife's middle name is Arwen. (I kid you not. My > sister-in-law's middle name is Galadriel. Yes, her parents were *that* much > into Tolkien). > > -- Probably having the time of their lives now with the movie out etc. Great conversation piece. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:32:41 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 4 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012170761 16140 172.20.76.33 (27 Jan 2002 22:32:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:32:41 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75001 In article , Orac wrote: > Not only that, but it was such an OBVIOUS Tolkien ripoff... Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that. I mean Memory, Sorrow and Thorn absolutely rocks. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:33:47 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012170827 16140 172.20.76.33 (27 Jan 2002 22:33:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:33:47 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75048 In article , john thrum wrote: > I happened to have like the Sword of Shannara series. My vote would > go for the Ouroboros series by David Eddings. The *what* series. You mean he has inflicted even more of his shite upon world? ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:37:44 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012171064 16140 172.20.76.33 (27 Jan 2002 22:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:37:44 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newspeer.cwnet.com!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75076 In article , Norseman wrote: > "pawn" skrev i melding > news:AbW48.1161$l5.49545@read2.cgocable.net... >> Without a doubt, the Dragonlance Cronicles. Written by children, admired by >> fools. > > Count me in on that one. Beyond some comic relief courtesy of Fizban that The Drangonlance followup books are much worse, including some Weis & Hickman. Does anyone else find it interesting that Death's Gate is just as poorly written and even longer than Dranglance it is still one of the better works of 1990s fantacy? ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:43:14 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.153.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1012171189 24.141.153.93 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:39:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:39:49 EST Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75066 I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the story was derived from their campaign. Norseman wrote in message news:FEW48.2838$tn2.63123@news4.ulv.nextra.no... > "pawn" skrev i melding > news:AbW48.1161$l5.49545@read2.cgocable.net... > > Without a doubt, the Dragonlance Cronicles. Written by children, admired by > > fools. > > Count me in on that one. Beyond some comic relief courtesy of Fizban that > actually made me chuckle out loud, this was a travesty. And unlike the LoTR: > FoTR movie, this one gets worse if you come back for seconds. (I got the set > as a well intended gift a couple of years ago, so I felt I had to red them > again.) > > ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 30 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:47:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012171632 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:47:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:47:12 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75678 In article , Ronald O. Christian wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:07:21 GMT, Orac wrote: > >> Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > >> author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > > > >Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > > Never having read the Wheel of Time, I cannot say. Sounds like I > should avoid it, though. :-) I was talking about getting paid by the word. For sheer word count, it's hard to beat Jordan. He's up to nine books, most of which are more than 600 pages in length each. Actually, The Wheel of Time series started out really good. The first book is great, some of the best fantasy I've read since Tolkien. The second and third books are also quite good. Starting around the fourth or fifth book, Jordan appeared to lose control of the story. Plot elements and characters are introduced, then not heard about again until a couple of books later. There are now so many storylines and characters that I can't keep track of them anymore, and, worse, it seems that Jordan isn't even trying to keep track of them anymore. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:47:29 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012171649 16140 172.20.76.33 (27 Jan 2002 22:47:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:47:29 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!30778!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!news-in.superfeed.net!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74948 In article , Ronald O Christian wrote: > *Some* of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. I was fortunate to have > read Wyrd Sisters first; going back to the beginning of the series, I > found that Pratchett didn't really hit his stride until Mort. He has Must disagree here. The first few retain a darkness the others don't have. Also they are the ones which most clearly attack fantasy (apart from L&L of course) as opposed to whatever else Prattchett feels like lampooning. I get the impression that for a while he viewed discworld as as a vehicle for taking the piss out of fantasy but kept writing disc novels even after he was bored of this target. It was only after the arrival of Carrot in Ankh Morpork that he really worked out how he wanted to use the disc to talk about the real world. Which is why Feet of Clay and The Truth are so strong but completely different from the early stories. > (Witches Abroad, Soul Music, Lords and Ladies, Hogfather) are Lords and ladies must be the best Tolkien followup there is. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:49:00 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C54CE6C.56B21B81@SPAMBLOCK.yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012171740 16140 172.20.76.33 (27 Jan 2002 22:49:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:49:00 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75014 In article <3C54CE6C.56B21B81@SPAMBLOCK.yahoo.com>, Mia Kalogjera wrote: > Ronald O. Christian wrote: > >> Robert Asprin Myth series. So I read the first one, >> and it wasn't very good. The jokes >> were too obvious, the writing too simple. > > I found them light and entertaining, and asked for > nothing more. :) Glad someone said that, because I am not able to comment on Myth. I read Phules Company though, and the same comments could be made. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:52:36 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012171956 16140 172.20.76.33 (27 Jan 2002 22:52:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:52:36 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75041 In article , Ronald O Christian wrote: >>Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > > Never having read the Wheel of Time, I cannot say. Sounds like I > should avoid it, though. :-) I suspect that under it all Wheel is actually very good. There are certainly some very interesting threads there. It's just there is five times as much annoying crap flying around because of a failed attempts at character development. And then there the pages and pages of useless padding. ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <03_48.20950$ag5.2015447@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 51 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:52:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012171979 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:52:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:52:59 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75672 In article , leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote: > In article <03_48.20950$ag5.2015447@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, > Dylan Bryan-Dolman wrote: > >David Salo wrote: > >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >> flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > >Since what makes the really bad ones so bad is their total lack of > >individualized character separate from their chewed-up little Tolkien bits, > >the nature of their badness prevents me from distinguishing one from the > >others as the very worst. > > The very worst stuff isn't that which is shamelessly ripped off from Tolkien. > The very worst stuff is that which is shamelessly ripped off from *that* > stuff. Third-rate Terry Brooks wannabes, probably starring somebody's > kewl D&D character. And that's the worst stuff that gets *published*; > at the bottom of the slushpiles sit even worse things by far. > > >But I suppose Jordan must win some kind of prize > >for carrying such crap to such extraordinary lengths -- and he's just one > >man, not like the sweatshop typists that crank out the TSR franchises. > > He's not really *that* bad, he's just being relentlessly mediocre at > great length. Or at least he was when I gave up his stuff a few years > ago; the first few of his books were actually pretty readable as such > things go. Actually, the first Wheel of Time book was more than "pretty readable." It was quite good. So were the second and third books. Unfortunately, after that the series began its long slow slide into pure mediocrity, which is where it now sits, in its ninth 600+ page volume, with no signs of the main story ever ending or even moving towards its conclusion. Worse, Jordan was claiming that he was planning on writing "three or four" more volumes back when volume five came out. We're on volume nine, and he's still claiming to be planning on writing three more volumes. Why do I keep reading this? I don't know. Probably a combination of not being willing to give up on a series I've put such an investment in, sheer stubbornness, and a forlorn hope that he would be able to recapture the magic of the first couple of books. Volume nine may finally have done it for me, though. I'm stuck on about page 176 and can't seem to force myself to go on.... -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 35 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:56:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012172190 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:56:30 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:56:30 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75681 In article <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu>, jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) wrote: > On 27 Jan 2002 09:25:15 -0800, ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) > wrote: > > > >I was stupid, and was suckered in by a blurb on the first volume of > >Robert Jordan's _Wheel of Time_, with all sorts of reviews claiming > >that he was the best since Tolkien. I realized, while reading it (I > >was fifteen at the time, and had just finished _The Silmarillion_ and > >was looking for more Tolkien-related stuff), that the only reason that > >he was at all good was that he was not merely imitating, but > >plagarizing Tolkien. > > Anyone that reads past the first volume would realize that the series > is a major departure from Tolkien, and that the first book is one of > the weakest. Actually, the first book was the strongest of the series. It hooked me right from the prologue. And it did contain several Tolkienesque elements reminding me somewhat of "The Fellowship of the Ring," although I would consider that more tribute than ripoff, as it was sufficiently different. It was all downhill after the first book, though. The eighth book, "The Path of Daggers," was awful. I'm struggling to get through the ninth book, "Winter's Heart," but can't seem to get past page 176 or so. This one may finally be the one that makes me give up on this series once and for all, something I probably should have done around book four or five. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.29.42 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012172531 212.151.29.42 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:02:11 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:02:11 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-29-42.swipnet.se Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:04:22 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75174 basic.bs.webusenet.com wrote: >"Öjevind Lång" wrote in message >news:n6Y48.6766$O5.16962@nntpserver.swip.net... >> David Salo wrote: >> [snip] >> > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >> >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > >I'm afraid I don't remeber the author's name, but the book, I believe was >something like "Maia". It was as thick as a dictionary, and basically not >much more than soft porn. My mother gave it to me, since she knew I liked >fantasy. It *did* have one redeeming quality--it was worth a good bit of >credit in fantasy/sci fi at the used book store. I believe that was one of Richard Adams' many failures after his (fantastcally good) "Watership Down". (Though "Shardik" was rather good, I thought.) Öjevind ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 16 Organization: home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:14:16 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.123.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1012173226 80.1.123.142 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:13:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:13:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74596 "Orac" wrote > > Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed going > > in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. > > Yeesh. > > Yes, but that was part of its charm, wasn't it? > Exactly. It's the sort of situation any teenage geekboy would love to be in, so this guy behaves and emotes in the exact polar opposite way. It took me ten years to understand those books, which is more than can be said for LOTR (not sure if that's actually a good thing or a bad thing but it certainly is something.) ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:24:32 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-876.newsdawg.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Mail-Copies-To: nobody Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75423 In article , Orac wrote: > Since I'm ragging on Piers Anthony, I also didn't like his Incarnations > of Immortality series. Once again, it was a case of the first book ("On > a Pale Horse") being pretty good, but then the series rapidly > degenerating after that. I stopped after the third book. The very last book (7th) was okay too. No argument about the rest, though. OTOH, he wrote the "Adept" books... the first three (the originals) were good. Then he wrote a fourth, which I managed to get through. The fifth... FLEW across the room! Spontaneously! I haven't read anything that bad before or since. -- Howard S Shubs "Run in circles, scream and shout!" "I hope you have good backups!" Aren't there any networked SJFs around? ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:55:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012175706 65.33.106.28 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:55:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:55:06 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75753 "James H Banks" wrote in message news:W9%48.59825$if5.2779662452@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com... > > Bill Silvey wrote in message > news:29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > > > > > "Paul Kellaway" wrote in message > > news:a31hqa$14il5i$1@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de... > > > > > And you married her! > > > > Ah yes, but my wife's middle name is Arwen. (I kid you not. My > > sister-in-law's middle name is Galadriel. Yes, her parents were *that* > much > > into Tolkien). > > > > -- > > Probably having the time of their lives now with the movie out etc. Great > conversation piece. Somebody screwed up when they put my wife on a junk-mail list and put down her middle name only. We regularly get mail here addressed to Arwen. Always gives us pause. (That's real, physical mail, not Email.) -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### From: Jason Mulligan Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Organization: - X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:56:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.137.117.241 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1012175784 144.137.117.241 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:56:24 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:56:24 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75111 In article , pawn@porterhouse.com says... > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > story was derived from their campaign. Thats kind of true. The original trilogy was written concurrently with the design of the Dragonlance campaign for D&D. And some elements of the playtesting of the game (certain character traits and interactions) made it into the books. Weis & Hickman were involved in either both the design of the game materials and the playtesting of it or just the playtesting (at least Weiss, Hickman is a game designer from way back). That said, I quite enjoyed it. Especially the Raistlin/Caramon relationship. Enough to read Legends, which I enjoyed even more. Thats not to say I'd put it in the same class as Tolkien. Its a pulp fantasy, in a similar class to Haggard, Howard & Leiber. Not that I'd neccesarily rate it above any of those authors. ###### From: elrondimladris@hotmail.com (Elrond of Rivendell) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 27 Jan 2002 16:28:11 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 47 Message-ID: <1a5e2682.0201271628.14af472a@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.193.76.43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012177692 32461 127.0.0.1 (28 Jan 2002 00:28:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 00:28:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75393 (1) "Valley of the Trolls" by Dimple Brockhouse of Loamsdown (Hey, YOU run Jacqueline Suzanne through the hobbit name generator) '"Doth thou like what thou doth see?" saith the beautiful elf-maiden. '"Oooh!" saith the excited hobbit. "Where are my bennies?" '"But first...The Ring. I need the Ring..."' (2) "Rose Marie's Balrog" by Bingo Brandybuck of Buckland (Ditto Ira Levin; I left Rosemary alone, almost - it would have come out Myrtle, a different herb altogether. Speaking of herbs...) '"This lembas smells of tanis." said Rose Marie.' (3) Anything by William Burroughs. OK. OK. Seriously, I vote against "Sword of Shannarra" and "Dragonlance" or any of the other sad attempts to 'codify' a Dungeon and Dragons game. There was also a plethora of analytical works, biographical musings, and explanations, some of which were serious scholarship and which still reside on my reference shelf to this day, but others that were just plain crap capitalizing on LOTR's popularity. Now that I think of it, that includes some of the movie related stuff newly published. But I am most grateful to the good professor for opening my eyes to Homer, Virgil, Beowolf, Roland, King Arthur (via his translation of "Gawain and the Green Knight") the tales of my Celtic ancestors, Boccacio and Dante for my Italian forbearers, the 1001 Arabian Nights, the brother's Grimm, C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" and "Out of the Silent Planet" trilogy, and the epic of epics non-pareil, "Bored of the Rings." And another "thank you" for creating the market that allowed the publication of the Del Ray series, anything by Zelazney, and everything epic by Marion Zimmer Bradley. David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:37:23 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3c549d17.28173144@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> <8eu85u4qiedjg3jthbv0vt0gefa7bv33av@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-163.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feeder.qis.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74924 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:08:30 GMT, Ronald O. Christian posted the following: >On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:39:29 -0500, Boris Badenov > wrote: > >>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: >> >>|Admit it -- you know you did. >> >>Actually, I didn't. I avoid any books that are "like" Tolkien, or "reminiscent of" >>Tolkien, or "better than" Tolkien. After you;ve read the best, there is no place else to >>go except down. I realized that very early on. > >Oh, that's a little too much. Tolkien's novels are good, but "the >best"? An indication that one might spend a little more quality time >at the local library. There's nothing wrong with thinking that LotR is the best book. Everyone has their own opinions, and I would be insulted to be on the receiving end of your implication that the poster is poorly read. -Chris ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:13:18 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.153.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1012183792 24.141.153.93 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:09:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:09:52 EST Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75071 The only part that sticks with me was (whoever) looking ip and seeing the hourglass constellation. (First book of Legends I believe). There were some creative concepts in the books, unfortunately they were written for children. ###### From: paulh Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:16:22 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-066CEP4Ak8FLLeg+FYcONZzw4lyoYqFN6rbdGbwJtfTedKUbPbB36WUZXeCRgZSzsXwHQmHKD7j9f/5!il2hTu/Z6Tnz2TjjuG9p0BOb3sITdngnRiwrMbY7Zi91K+4cWroDRPyL+NEI7viPc25l+w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:16:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!news-xfer.siscom.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75712 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:34:50 GMT, "dornford" wrote: >I second the Sword Of Shanarra as worst, but I'd like to vote for Jack >Vance's Lyonesse trilogy as the best. He is a very witty writer, and his >plots are original. His handling of his character's dietary adventures are >worth reading just by themselves. > >A quote from memory: The Royal Duchess is advising the young princess upon >expected standards of behaviour at her first Royal banquet. "... And do not >laugh at any errors in deportment by another - and most particularly, do not >break wind yourself. Nothing is more conspicuous than a farting princess." Aye... hes' one of the best.... paulh ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:21:31 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 7 Message-ID: <9cd95u4qi83qv5a38rr16tur7rnfa2tj99@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.3a.db.0e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Jan 2002 02:21:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75435 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:02:16 -0000, "teepee" wrote: >Another question is which was the best. Ursula LeGuin's "Earthsea", first three books, is a candidate. ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:24:27 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3id95uoupos6iuu7ittr7dbfc6r810hlvl@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.3a.db.0e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Jan 2002 02:24:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75711 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:28:37 -0600, "basic.bs.webusenet.com" wrote: > >I'm afraid I don't remeber the author's name, but the book, I believe was >something like "Maia". It was as thick as a dictionary, and basically not >much more than soft porn. My mother gave it to me, since she knew I liked >fantasy. It *did* have one redeeming quality--it was worth a good bit of >credit in fantasy/sci fi at the used book store. >Barbara Richard Adams. ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <9cd95u4qi83qv5a38rr16tur7rnfa2tj99@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 14 Organization: home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:32:28 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.123.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1012185114 80.1.123.142 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:31:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:31:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74613 "Jon Meltzer" wrote in message news:9cd95u4qi83qv5a38rr16tur7rnfa2tj99@4ax.com... > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:02:16 -0000, "teepee" > wrote: > > > >Another question is which was the best. > > Ursula LeGuin's "Earthsea", first three books, is a candidate. Was very good ( I liked the 4th too) but not heavily LOTR derivative IMHO. ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: moocow1985@aol.complicated (Lisa Marie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 28 Jan 2002 02:38:28 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <20020127213828.08191.00000171@mb-dh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74951 Chris said: >I'll admit that the Shannara books smack of major Tolkien influence. But I >have enjoyed the series. Definitely no where near the same league as LotR >but great character development and captivating story line. I read the first Shannara book and I thought parts of it were really good, but I found that the obvious Tolkien influence took away from the other original ideas. I felt almost cheated at the end because I spent a while reading it and it just wasn't very satisfying, if you know what I mean. Lisa ###### From: Janet Cone Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:40:41 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.148.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1012189001 203.96.148.148 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:36:41 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:36:41 NZDT Organization: TelstraSaturn Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75593 In article , ronc@europa.com says... > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:18:54 GMT, "Bill Silvey" > wrote: > > > > > > >"Paul Kellaway" wrote in message > >news:a31hqa$14il5i$1@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de... > > > >> And you married her! > > > >Ah yes, but my wife's middle name is Arwen. (I kid you not. My > >sister-in-law's middle name is Galadriel. Yes, her parents were *that* much > >into Tolkien). > > Poor kid.... Could have been their first names... I've met an Arwen, haven't met any Galadriels yet. ###### From: Andrew Reeves Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:54:09 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3C54CB61.D99EE6F8@mail.utexas.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs6668112-120.austin.rr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 1012190420 9699 66.68.112.120 (28 Jan 2002 04:00:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:00:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!316479!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74832 Orac wrote: > I'm struggling to get through > the ninth book, "Winter's Heart," but can't seem to get past page 176 or > so. Well, I recently finished the book. A word of advice: Read passively, skim for the most part, but then slow down for the final chapter, which does in fact contain a plot development. Hell, the more I think about it, just skip to the last chapter, which is pretty good and, like I said, does contain a major plot development. > This one may finally be the one that makes me give up on this series > once and for all, something I probably should have done around book four > or five. > > -- > Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." > | > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you > | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Andrew Reeves Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:55:53 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3C54CBC9.EBE457B2@mail.utexas.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs6668112-120.austin.rr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 1012190524 9699 66.68.112.120 (28 Jan 2002 04:02:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:02:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74833 Orac wrote: > Ditto. I never understood why the critics seemed to think it was some > great masterpiece of fantasy writing. > *I* happened to find it quite enjoyable, if nothing else for it's...difference from most generic fantasy. I found the final installment, though, _Urth of the New Sun_ to be a let-down. Andrew ###### From: "D.Putnam" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 8 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <1c458.7079$gd.1563620@news2.nash1.tn.home.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:11:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.52.84.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.nash1.tn.home.com 1012191101 68.52.84.166 (Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:11:41 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:11:41 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.nash1.tn.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75288 Yes the Chronicles are good books. I yearn for an update... > The Covenant series were pretty good, but in my humble opinion, George > RR Martin's series is very, very good . . . without being an obvious > ripoff of LOTR or any other fantasy series. ###### From: "basic.bs.webusenet.com" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:27:37 EST Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:25:15 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds-atl2!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75680 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:TF%48.6794$O5.16201@nntpserver.swip.net... > basic.bs.webusenet.com wrote: > > >"Öjevind Lång" wrote in message > >news:n6Y48.6766$O5.16962@nntpserver.swip.net... > >> David Salo wrote: > >> > [snip] > > >> > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >> >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > >I'm afraid I don't remeber the author's name, but the book, I believe was > >something like "Maia". It was as thick as a dictionary, and basically not > >much more than soft porn. My mother gave it to me, since she knew I liked > >fantasy. It *did* have one redeeming quality--it was worth a good bit of > >credit in fantasy/sci fi at the used book store. > > > I believe that was one of Richard Adams' many failures after his > (fantastcally good) "Watership Down". (Though "Shardik" was rather good, I > thought.) Oh. That's probably why I forgot who wrote it. I liked Watership Down and Shardik. Barbara > > Öjevind > > ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Land of Storm and Chaos References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "\LJ/5EA;~k%mAErPj*&_K+tI#fz(4+WNg)5Z)pZA4{#aVTjw0>{-C}h~~X;G2ylL:Pm@^+"1$1o\mr(R,+~dT#>^1;}[N)J5\T=\VDpM]nF4Pw7&L6|NdUs,9]/{O"D6splJ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:47:42 -0600 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: tayhou-207-218-236-5.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 1012192671 tayhou-207-218-236-5.ev1.net (27 Jan 2002 22:37:51 -0600) Lines: 26 X-Authenticated-User: psiemens Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net!jubjub Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75185 In article <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu>, jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) wrote: > On 27 Jan 2002 09:25:15 -0800, ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) > wrote: > > > >I was stupid, and was suckered in by a blurb on the first volume of > >Robert Jordan's _Wheel of Time_, with all sorts of reviews claiming > >that he was the best since Tolkien. I realized, while reading it (I > >was fifteen at the time, and had just finished _The Silmarillion_ and > >was looking for more Tolkien-related stuff), that the only reason that > >he was at all good was that he was not merely imitating, but > >plagarizing Tolkien. > > Anyone that reads past the first volume would realize that the series > is a major departure from Tolkien, and that the first book is one of > the weakest. > The same could be said of the Shannara series. Brooks creates a rather interesting history as he unfolds his series. -- Lord Jubjub Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves, Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Land of Storm and Chaos References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "\LJ/5EA;~k%mAErPj*&_K+tI#fz(4+WNg)5Z)pZA4{#aVTjw0>{-C}h~~X;G2ylL:Pm@^+"1$1o\mr(R,+~dT#>^1;}[N)J5\T=\VDpM]nF4Pw7&L6|NdUs,9]/{O"D6splJ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:51:41 -0600 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: tayhou-207-218-236-5.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 1012192910 tayhou-207-218-236-5.ev1.net (27 Jan 2002 22:41:50 -0600) Lines: 30 X-Authenticated-User: psiemens Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!1064947!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!newsa.ev1.net!jubjub Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75172 In article , "teepee" wrote: > "Orac" wrote > > > > Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed > going > > > in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. > > > Yeesh. > > > > Yes, but that was part of its charm, wasn't it? > > > Exactly. It's the sort of situation any teenage geekboy would love to be > in, so this guy behaves and emotes in the exact polar opposite way. It > took me ten years to understand those books, which is more than can be > said for LOTR (not sure if that's actually a good thing or a bad thing > but it certainly is something.) > In defense of Middle-Earth, Tolkien never really tried to get inside his characters' heads. I have read all six Covenent books and the two Mirror books. Maybe Donaldson ought to try something cheerful sometime. His insistent internal dialog is irritating without the constant drip-drip of negativism. Almost made ME want to commit suicide. Speaking of Volgon poetry. . . -- Lord Jubjub Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves, Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Land of Storm and Chaos References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c54358d.1663088@news.newsguy.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "\LJ/5EA;~k%mAErPj*&_K+tI#fz(4+WNg)5Z)pZA4{#aVTjw0>{-C}h~~X;G2ylL:Pm@^+"1$1o\mr(R,+~dT#>^1;}[N)J5\T=\VDpM]nF4Pw7&L6|NdUs,9]/{O"D6splJ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:55:43 -0600 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: tayhou-207-218-236-5.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 1012193161 tayhou-207-218-236-5.ev1.net (27 Jan 2002 22:46:01 -0600) Lines: 32 X-Authenticated-User: psiemens Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net!jubjub Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75170 In article <3c54358d.1663088@news.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:51:49 GMT, Orac posted the > following: > > >In article <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>, > > David Salo wrote: > > > >> Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > >> read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > >> blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > >> Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > >> crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >> flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > >The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks. > > > >Basically, it substituted a sword for the One Ring, and had nothing > >original going for it. > > However, I found that the next two books (Elfstone and Wishsong) were > a lot more original and quite good. I still don't like Sword, though. > Anyone else agree? > I agree totally. While I don't think his world feels as complete as Middle-Earth, I have found it intriguing. -- Lord Jubjub Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves, Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <49m95ucp76112itnk6envigt2sa40mafqr@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> <8eu85u4qiedjg3jthbv0vt0gefa7bv33av@4ax.com> <3c549d17.28173144@news.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1012193808 12.224.252.154 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:56:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:56:48 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:56:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75510 On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:37:23 GMT, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: >On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:08:30 GMT, Ronald O. Christian > posted the following: > >>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:39:29 -0500, Boris Badenov >> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: >>> >>>|Admit it -- you know you did. >>> >>>Actually, I didn't. I avoid any books that are "like" Tolkien, or "reminiscent of" >>>Tolkien, or "better than" Tolkien. After you;ve read the best, there is no place else to >>>go except down. I realized that very early on. >> >>Oh, that's a little too much. Tolkien's novels are good, but "the >>best"? An indication that one might spend a little more quality time >>at the local library. > >There's nothing wrong with thinking that LotR is the best book. >Everyone has their own opinions, and I would be insulted to be on the >receiving end of your implication that the poster is poorly read. > >-Chris I don't think Boris needs you defending him. In any case, "realizing that Tolkien is the best early on" heavily implies that more reading could have been in order. Perhaps he meant something different. If so, he will tell me. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Tamfiiris Gloruloke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.232.145 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:29:45 MET X-Trace: news2.ulv.nextra.no 1012199385 130.67.232.145 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:29:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news2.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75542 ZzinkSun, 27 Jan 2002 15:39:29 -0500, Boris Badenov-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo: >Actually, I didn't. I avoid any books that are "like" Tolkien, or "reminiscent of" >Tolkien, or "better than" Tolkien. After you;ve read the best, there is no place else to >go except down. I realized that very early on. aol. i read Tolkien, i don't read "fantasy". i enjoy original authors with plenty of imagination though, such as Jose Saramago, Laura Esquivel and Tove Jansson, though. -- Tamf In some cultures what I do would be considered normal. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:38:31 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C554647.11308C6@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75398 David Salo wrote: > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Sword of Shanarra. It did not contain a single original thought or line. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:41:19 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75539 pawn wrote: > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > story was derived from their campaign. > It was, and you can hear the dice rolling in some scenes, or notice: Oh, the mage just got to next level... inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:45:55 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3C554803.DDF87AA7@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75535 Orac wrote: > > In article , > Ronald O. Christian wrote: > > > > > You're probably thinking of "the book of the new sun" by Gene Wolfe. > > Enthusiastically recommended by my karate instructor, I found it > > extremely dull. > > Ditto. I never understood why the critics seemed to think it was some > great masterpiece of fantasy writing. Great pictures, no story IMO. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:48:01 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3C554881.427A8DA6@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75497 teepee wrote: > > > > Exactly. It's the sort of situation any teenage geekboy would love to be > in, so this guy behaves and emotes in the exact polar opposite way. It > took me ten years to understand those books, I tried three times now to read the first one, but I never make it past the bad guy's monologue in (IIRC) chapter 2. After one page of it I think, "yeah, you're evil, got it the first time..." and find something better to do. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:55:23 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!1667908!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!195.129.110.18.MISMATCH!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75529 Aris Katsaris wrote: > > "David Salo" wrote in message > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Guy Gavriel Kay's first two volumes of "The Fionavar Tapestry" I found that one extremely boring -- not outrageously bad, only boring -- but if I ever get it in English I'm going to give it a second chance. Can't trust translations... inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:05:36 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3C554CA0.1F41C941@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> <8eu85u4qiedjg3jthbv0vt0gefa7bv33av@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75495 "Ronald O. Christian" wrote: > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:39:29 -0500, Boris Badenov > wrote: > > > > >Actually, I didn't. I avoid any books that are "like" Tolkien, or "reminiscent of" > >Tolkien, or "better than" Tolkien. After you;ve read the best, there is no place else to > >go except down. I realized that very early on. > > Oh, that's a little too much. Tolkien's novels are good, but "the > best"? An indication that one might spend a little more quality time > at the local library. Although I read quite a lot of Fantasy and SF, I never found a book that fell into the 'Tolkienesque' category and was as good as the LotR, let alone better. There are other books which I consider very good (Dune, Lord of Light, Earthsea), but they are *different*. The greatest weakness IMO of all those Tolkien wannabes is that they *are* wannabes. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:04:52 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3C555A84.2D57E7B4@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!trev!newsfeed.esat.net!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75521 I know, replying to myself is bad style, but after giving the matter some thought I must correct myself. 'Sword of Shanarra' is *far* from the worst Tolkien-style fantasy I ever read. The really, really worst are written by Wolfgang Hohlbein, and, if you're lucky, they were never translated into English. This guy started you as a pulp writer, and wrote decent pulp, but then he crashed into the hardcover fantasy segment by winning a major prize with a LotR-RipOff children's book that was, at least, well ripped off, and he became (and still is) celebrated as *the* German fantasy author. Which made me read his 'Enwor Cycle'. Oh my. He seems to have listened to the literary critics. There is sex. And UST. And angst. And more angst. And still more angst. And mutants. And evil. And the Uselessness Of It All, and then some more angst. Even as a teenager (teenagers thrive in angst!) after a while I only wanted to smack his characters left and right until they got their act together, or put themselves out of their misery. Oh, it's *such* a bad world! He created suspense by a simple formula I learned from his books and have copied occasionally since, but I also learned from his books *not* to use the same trick more than three times in a row, because, believe me, after the fourth time it gets *really* obvious, after the fifth it gets boring, and later repetitions just /hurt/. I've occasionally tried other books of his since, but none so far has even tempted me to re-think my opinion. They all had me wanting to drown the characters in the nearest river myself. And a close follow-up in 'I actively hate it' are the later works of Mercedes Lackey. 600 pages, and the plot starts moving at page 550! inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:08:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012226921 65.33.106.28 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:08:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:08:41 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!64.245.249.27.MISMATCH!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75732 "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message news:3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de... > > > pawn wrote: > > > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > > story was derived from their campaign. > > > > It was, and you can hear the dice rolling in some scenes, or notice: Oh, > the mage just got to next level... Ever read "Quag Keep" by Andre Norton? :-) -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### From: mplum1834@earthlinkREMOVE.net (Marc Plum) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <3c556783.45655778@news.earthlink.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:08:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.151.64.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1012230496 24.151.64.95 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:08:16 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:08:16 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:08:16 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75061 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: I'll mention Piers Anthony's "Xanth" series as an example. Not that it started out all that badly. It's also not that close to Tolkien, although it's definitely fantasy. What I object to is series of the kind that just never stop. The author finds a successful formula and just keeps on churning out book after book after book . . . . Okay, he needs to make a living. I just prefer writers who stop milking it when they have nothing more to say. Please remove "REMOVE" from my Email address to respond. Marc Plum I disagree with what you say, but I will grudgingly accept minor inconveniences to defend your right to say it. ###### Message-ID: <3C55783C.C625A6D5@sympatico.ca> From: Carl Blondin Reply-To: carl.blondin@mail.mcgill.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:11:40 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.228.178.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1012235286 64.228.178.116 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:28:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:28:06 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74629 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > David Salo wrote: > > > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > >read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > >blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > >Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > >crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. I'd have to agree. A friend of mine liked him and had most of his books. He suggested the "best series" to begin. I finished it out of respect for him, because the story was somewhat lacking and what was there lacked cohesion. I had buried this memory at the back of my brain until you mentioned it. Carl ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:19:54 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: galgopi.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012234794 6181 129.240.65.254 (28 Jan 2002 16:19:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 16:19:54 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74496 Orac wrote: > In article <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu>, > jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) wrote: > > > On 27 Jan 2002 09:25:15 -0800, ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) > > wrote: > > > > > > >I was stupid, and was suckered in by a blurb on the first volume of > > >Robert Jordan's _Wheel of Time_, with all sorts of reviews claiming > > >that he was the best since Tolkien. I realized, while reading it (I > > >was fifteen at the time, and had just finished _The Silmarillion_ and > > >was looking for more Tolkien-related stuff), that the only reason that > > >he was at all good was that he was not merely imitating, but > > >plagarizing Tolkien. > > > > Anyone that reads past the first volume would realize that the series > > is a major departure from Tolkien, and that the first book is one of > > the weakest. > > Actually, the first book was the strongest of the series. It hooked me > right from the prologue. And it did contain several Tolkienesque > elements reminding me somewhat of "The Fellowship of the Ring," although > I would consider that more tribute than ripoff, as it was sufficiently > different. It was all downhill after the first book, though. I found the first book rather bland (even if the prologue was good), and the second was *far* too much of a retread of the first. The third picked up a bit, and the fourth was actually pretty good. Then things started going downhill again, and some of the subplots became blindingly repetitive and tedious. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <38p85usv3jbtcl2999e8qhlc7u81ai9m42@4ax.com> <8eu85u4qiedjg3jthbv0vt0gefa7bv33av@4ax.com> <3C554CA0.1F41C941@gmx.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1012234861 12.224.252.154 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:21:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:21:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:21:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75471 On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:05:36 +0100, Ingeborg Denner wrote: >Although I read quite a lot of Fantasy and SF, I never found a book that >fell into the 'Tolkienesque' category and was as good as the LotR, let >alone better. There are other books which I consider very good (Dune, >Lord of Light, Earthsea), but they are *different*. The greatest >weakness IMO of all those Tolkien wannabes is that they *are* wannabes. Fair enough. Tolkien *is* best at being Tolkien, undoubtedly. The original comment struck me as being more broad than that, which is where I start to have a problem. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:04:09 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p084.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1012241087 28168 212.205.253.84 (28 Jan 2002 18:04:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:04:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74831 "paulh" wrote in message news:p9d95uopp4vkof0ecg1sb6gir4eucolo8e@4ax.com... > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:34:50 GMT, "dornford" > wrote: > > >A quote from memory: The Royal Duchess is advising the young princess upon > >expected standards of behaviour at her first Royal banquet. "... And do not > >laugh at any errors in deportment by another - and most particularly, do not > >break wind yourself. Nothing is more conspicuous than a farting princess." > > Aye... hes' one of the best.... I'm just saying this as a data-point -- but if the best example you two can give us of his being "witty" is a fart joke, I'll definitely give him a pass. Some people don't find "low-brow" to be synonymous to "wit". Aris KAtsaris ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:06:41 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3c5504f2.44551008@news.saix.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-05-p98.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1012241369 9061 155.239.220.98 (28 Jan 2002 18:09:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 18:09:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74676 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:16:11 GMT, "Bill Silvey" wrote: >My wife (then girlfriend) convinced me that if I loved Tolkien, I'd really >enjoy David Eddings. > >UGH. It was like eating shoe leather after Prime Rib. I agree. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:06:42 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3c550582.44694993@news.saix.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-05-p98.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1012241370 9061 155.239.220.98 (28 Jan 2002 18:09:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 18:09:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74661 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:02:16 -0000, "teepee" wrote: >Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's >chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, >comparable to Tolkien at his best Empty hype. Donaldson at his best doesn't quite come up to the standard of Tolkien at his worst. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### Message-ID: <3C559781.A565FC9@ntlworld.com> From: hoodedman Reply-To: hoodedman@ntlworld.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c556783.45655778@news.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:25:05 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.188.37 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news11-gui.server.ntli.net 1012242407 62.255.188.37 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:26:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:26:47 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74600 i completely detest that Terry goodkind fellow. He can barely construct a sentence, and his characters act/speak in a juvenile manner one moment, then are engaged in sado-masochism the next. Some of the characters also seem to be loosly based on those in Star Wars. The man claims he's never read Tolkien or any other fantasy writer--I don't believe him, but if it's true, then he NEEDS to! My 'favourite' (not) bits are when the heroine comes face to face with the killer 'chicken that is not a chicken' (I kid you not) and when the hero has a premonition that soon his beloved 'would feel the prick.' (i nearly collapsed in hysterics when I read that last one! Marc Plum wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: > > I'll mention Piers Anthony's "Xanth" series as an example. Not that > it started out all that badly. It's also not that close to Tolkien, > although it's definitely fantasy. What I object to is series of the > kind that just never stop. The author finds a successful formula and > just keeps on churning out book after book after book . . . . Okay, he > needs to make a living. I just prefer writers who stop milking it > when they have nothing more to say. > > Please remove "REMOVE" from my Email address to respond. > > Marc Plum > > I disagree with what you say, but I will grudgingly accept minor inconveniences to defend your right to say it. ###### From: "John Austin" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:08:30 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3c55a09e$0$5679$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.215.253.75 X-Trace: 1012244638 news.twtelecom.net 5679 168.215.253.75 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!spool1.twtelecom.net!207.250.5.9.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75324 Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time. I should qualify this; I like the series, but the first book (Eye of the World) was a direct rip-off of many elements of Lord of the Rings. "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <5mh58.3384$_r1.26684578@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Trace: Rn35qfWKUKcWvhlHIH3k24pp4EXA1Ow+H9Ycmp2zXA4AQKuYxOC03pi4DIOer3tVUjMy8iGrWnUU!rORjCj47IFGu/4MmfHJskF8= X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:09:53 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:09:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!955469!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75613 Bill Silvey wrote in message news:JXc58.468083$oj3.89080616@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > > > "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message > news:3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de... > > > > > > pawn wrote: > > > > > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > > > story was derived from their campaign. > > > > > > > It was, and you can hear the dice rolling in some scenes, or notice: Oh, > > the mage just got to next level... > > Ever read "Quag Keep" by Andre Norton? :-) > of course - I've read every single Andre Norton book I can lay my hands on ;-) -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html ###### From: "Paul R. Moon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:37:55 -0700 Organization: ArosNet Internet Services Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.219.21.66 X-Trace: news.aros.net 1012246664 91961 208.219.21.66 (28 Jan 2002 19:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@aros.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 19:37:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!xmission!news.aros.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74649 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS Since nobody has mentioned it yet, how about "The Dark Tower" trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan? I'm a pretty forgiving reader, and remember being mildly entertained by them a dozen years ago when I read them, but in terms of being an absolute copy of Lord of The Rings, I they win. In fact, I found this quote from a reviewer on Amazon.com: "If you picked up the Lord of the Rings and found the writing too dry or too slow but you were still interested in reading the story (in a general sense), give the Iron Tower a try." I wish I still had them, because in the prologue he actually explained why he felt the need to write LOTR again! In the interest of books I have enjoyed, I fall firmly in the camp of those who loved the Thomas Covenant books by Donaldson. I would also recommend the Black Company novels by Cook, particularly the first series and the last. One of the things that I like about these authors is that they have created worlds in their stories that seem to be more deep and relevant to the story than many authors. One of the things that makes Lord of the Rings so interesting is the impression that we are actually seeing just one small part of a massive, interesting history, and that so much of what is going in the story stems from outside the scope of the novel. Too many authors seem to get it backwards and you feel like what history they create seems to be created simply to justify the story being told. The first book of Terry Goodkind's series, Wizards First Rule, seemed to me to be an excellent example of this type of problem. (Although I very much enjoyed when he revealed exactly what the Wizards First Rule is). ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> <5mh58.3384$_r1.26684578@news-text.cableinet.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:38:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012246705 65.33.106.28 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:38:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:38:25 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75742 "Jette Goldie" wrote in message news:5mh58.3384$_r1.26684578@news-text.cableinet.net... > > Bill Silvey wrote in message > news:JXc58.468083$oj3.89080616@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > > > > > > > "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message > > news:3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de... > > > > > > > > > pawn wrote: > > > > > > > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and > the > > > > story was derived from their campaign. > > > > > > > > > > It was, and you can hear the dice rolling in some scenes, or notice: Oh, > > > the mage just got to next level... > > > > Ever read "Quag Keep" by Andre Norton? :-) > > > > of course - I've read every single Andre Norton book > I can lay my hands on ;-) Well then, you can't complain *too* loudly about hearing the dice roll then can you? (QK is wonderful in it's awfulness :-) ) -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <9pbb5u4vmmehtolnrsbtqa0jlij19rt1jh@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.224.252.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1012248805 12.224.252.154 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:13:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:13:25 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:13:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74445 In the category of "possibly good LOTR take-offs"; I have not read it yet, but a friend recommends "Grunts" by Mary Gentle as sort of an anti-lord-of-the-rings. It covers the adventures of Ashnak and his band of Orcs during the "usual last battle between Good and Evil". Of course, being on the wrong side, they regularly get the living crap beaten out of them. But then they find a cache of firearms... Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> <5mh58.3384$_r1.26684578@news-text.cableinet.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-Trace: QAMkoF+aOjcdkFBVqVoEZLrAjZXol1kSdF/x4E3sfBw0ZURGClNvEsDWCijB8Y8Y5a/hfQQyQP2A!oqj6o8zwYDEEq/NCAMvxG4A= X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:58:29 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:58:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75587 Bill Silvey wrote in message news:RMh58.469278$oj3.89385904@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > > > "Jette Goldie" wrote in message > news:5mh58.3384$_r1.26684578@news-text.cableinet.net... > > > > Bill Silvey wrote in message > > news:JXc58.468083$oj3.89080616@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message > > > news:3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de... > > > > > > > > > > > > pawn wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and > > the > > > > > story was derived from their campaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was, and you can hear the dice rolling in some scenes, or notice: > Oh, > > > > the mage just got to next level... > > > > > > Ever read "Quag Keep" by Andre Norton? :-) > > > > > > > of course - I've read every single Andre Norton book > > I can lay my hands on ;-) > > Well then, you can't complain *too* loudly about hearing the dice roll then > can you? (QK is wonderful in it's awfulness :-) ) > Ah, but in QK you are =supposed= to hear the dice roll. -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:01:04 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1012251664 11305 129.241.210.168 (28 Jan 2002 21:01:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:01:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news000.worldonline.se!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74887 In article , Aris Katsaris wrote: > >"paulh" wrote in message >news:p9d95uopp4vkof0ecg1sb6gir4eucolo8e@4ax.com... >> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:34:50 GMT, "dornford" >> wrote: >> >> >A quote from memory: The Royal Duchess is advising the young princess upon >> >expected standards of behaviour at her first Royal banquet. "... And do not >> >laugh at any errors in deportment by another - and most particularly, do not >> >break wind yourself. Nothing is more conspicuous than a farting princess." >> >> Aye... hes' one of the best.... > >I'm just saying this as a data-point -- but if the best example you two can >give us of his being "witty" is a fart joke, I'll definitely give him a pass. It's the way he tells 'em. Seriously, I think Vance is one of the best modern fantasy writers, and certainly one of the finest stylists in the genre. His characters are often not very admirable, though. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> <5mh58.3384$_r1.26684578@news-text.cableinet.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:13:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.33.106.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 1012252388 65.33.106.28 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:13:08 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:13:08 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75638 "Jette Goldie" wrote in message news:VXi58.3596$cN1.27742319@news-text.cableinet.net... > > Bill Silvey wrote in message > news:RMh58.469278$oj3.89385904@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... > > Well then, you can't complain *too* loudly about hearing the dice roll > then > > can you? (QK is wonderful in it's awfulness :-) ) > > > > Ah, but in QK you are =supposed= to hear the dice > roll. True, true...any book which starts off with the erm...main characters? Well I'll have to finish it to know, but anyway that starts off with at least the alter egos of the main characters breaking in to a carton of new minis before they start up their weekly AD&D game is OK by me :-) -- http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm Remove the X's in my email address to respond. > I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac. > The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages > are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded > 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <9pbb5u4vmmehtolnrsbtqa0jlij19rt1jh@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:31:41 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.12.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012258529 62.59.12.155 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:55:29 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:55:29 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!1243566!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74930 Ronald O. Christian wrote: >I have not read it yet, but a friend recommends "Grunts" by Mary >Gentle as sort of an anti-lord-of-the-rings. It covers the adventures >of Ashnak and his band of Orcs during the "usual last battle between >Good and Evil". Of course, being on the wrong side, they regularly >get the living crap beaten out of them. But then they find a cache of >firearms... I read that. It's funny. "Pass me another Elf, sarge! This one is split". Well, maybe not so funny :-) Greetings, T. ###### From: Sidsel Horvei Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 28 Jan 2002 21:54:33 GMT Organization: University of Bergen Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: sidsel@ii.uib.no NNTP-Posting-Host: apal.ii.uib.no X-Trace: toralf.uib.no 1012254873 86709 129.177.16.7 (28 Jan 2002 21:54:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uib.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 21:54:33 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (SunOS) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!1164989!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!deine.net!uio.no!nntp.uib.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75262 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:29:50 GMT, Ronald O Christian wrote: > Best: Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay. Yes, he's been ripping Tolkien for what he's worth, but the story is excellent, the characters are moving, and there's plenty of comic situations to set off any potential melodrama. Sidsel -- ************************************************************ Web page: http://www.ii.uib.no/~sidsel/ I don't want to be right; I want to _get_ it right. ************************************************************* ###### From: Tiffany Case Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:18:08 -0600 Organization: none Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3C55CE1F.6E1E30D5@yahoo.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> <3C555A84.2D57E7B4@gmx.de> Reply-To: person53705@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ras-c5800-2-52-202.dialup.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.doit.wisc.edu 1012256276 23588 128.104.52.202 (28 Jan 2002 22:17:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@doit.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 22:17:56 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74467 Ingeborg Denner wrote: > > > He created suspense by a simple formula I learned from his books and > have copied occasionally since, but I also learned from his books What's the suspense formula? Or was that just it? -TC ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:28:20 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <9pbb5u4vmmehtolnrsbtqa0jlij19rt1jh@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1012256900 14397 129.241.210.168 (28 Jan 2002 22:28:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:28:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74943 In article <9pbb5u4vmmehtolnrsbtqa0jlij19rt1jh@4ax.com>, Ronald O. Christian wrote: > >In the category of "possibly good LOTR take-offs"; > >I have not read it yet, but a friend recommends "Grunts" by Mary >Gentle as sort of an anti-lord-of-the-rings. It is more like a general parody of post-Tolkien schlock fantasy (and pulp SF and military fiction for that matter), though it does contain a few jokes on old JRRT. It is extremely nasty and vicious in spots; I love it myself but opinions among the sane are divided. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### Date: 28 Jan 2002 23:04:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20020128230436.4030.qmail@gacracker.org> From: Kid Curry Author-Supplied-Address: curry redneck gacracker org Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: Kid Curry Administrative-Comment: Send comments to Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse@dizum.com Organization: mail2news@dizum.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news-x2!mail2news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75080 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message > basic.bs.webusenet.com wrote: > > >I'm afraid I don't remeber the author's name, but the book, I believe was > >something like "Maia". It was as thick as a dictionary, and basically not > >much more than soft porn. My mother gave it to me, since she knew I liked > >fantasy. It *did* have one redeeming quality--it was worth a good bit of > >credit in fantasy/sci fi at the used book store. > > I believe that was one of Richard Adams' many failures after his > (fantastcally good) "Watership Down". (Though "Shardik" was rather good, I > thought.) > "Maia" is a kind of sequel/prequel to "Shardik" -- same war, other side. Not so dark though. But yeah, it is a bit steamy. "The Plague Dogs" isn't bad -- slower going than "Watership Down". I've enjoyed Fionavar, Dragonlance, Shannara, Discworld, Xanth, Silmarillion, Tad Williams, Gene Wolfe and even Goodkind, Eddings and Jordan -- for the first few books anyhow -- but it sounds like that makes me some kind of freak round here. (Can't stand Thomas Covenant, but no way is that a Tolkien rip-off.) -- Curry ###### From: celaeno@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Blueberry Pie Inc. Message-ID: <3c55878b.10085265@news.world-online.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 11 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:04:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.142.74.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@world-online.no X-Trace: news.world-online.no 1012262689 213.142.74.177 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:04:49 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:04:49 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news100.world-online.no!news100.world-online.no!news.world-online.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75164 You will not evade me, David Salo : > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? Here's yet another vote for Sword of Shannara. The rest of the series and his other work is much more tolerable (even though I can't take too large doses of his writing style), but that book...* shudder* Cel ###### From: JRStern@gte.net (JRStern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <3c55ee03.30557138@news.gte.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 16 X-Trace: /wzbxY4ZeFhBB6kiqoMfrncqw1TCAGcUtaEM8ASeWbk42a9tG94dREdwO+NvXr0VYv4qoWwxXAMc!WO96jE3miy73I3sDWmCR508GxXZKb774cm/MGuuy1UHmQDYx6o55z/5lE4PEbXE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:34:10 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:34:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74642 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:42:53 +0200, "Morgil Blackhope" wrote: >It would have to be part one of Thomas Covenant Chronicles, >by whatshisname - who cares. > >How much I hated it? Hard to say, it was repulsive in so many ways. >There are many not-so-good fantasy books, but usually they have >*some* good qualities that make them readable... I second the motion ... towards the shredder. Stephen R. Donaldon, Lord Foul's Bane, ... a couple of images are vaguely memorable, in a stomach-turning way, ... J. ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:42:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012268579 24.190.150.253 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:42:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:42:59 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75657 In article <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no>, Leiv Hodne wrote: > Orac wrote: > > Actually, the first book was the strongest of the series. It hooked me > > right from the prologue. And it did contain several Tolkienesque > > elements reminding me somewhat of "The Fellowship of the Ring," although > > I would consider that more tribute than ripoff, as it was sufficiently > > different. It was all downhill after the first book, though. > > I found the first book rather bland (even if the prologue was good), and the > second was *far* too much of a retread of the first. The third picked up a > bit, and the fourth was actually pretty good. Then things started going > downhill again, and some of the subplots became blindingly repetitive and > tedious. "Some" of the plots? Heck, nearly all the plots became blindingly repetitive and tedious after the fourth book.... -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 28 Jan 2002 20:25:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0201282025.3d86869a@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.242.228.119 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012278353 8555 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 04:25:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 04:25:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75467 David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? I read a couple of donaldson's Chronicles. didn't care for it. Maybe I;'ll give it another try soemtime, as there's some interesting stuff in it, but ... bleh. I actually like Terry Brooks, not so much The swrod of Shannara, however (which is on the lame side) as some of the later tetralogy (the one with the Shadowen and that ...), which has interesting ideas and characters that engage one's sympathy (although the Tolkien borrowings in nomenclature remain obvious -- names are in any case emphatically not Brooks' strong point). The best: chronicles of Narnia and the first three Earthsea books. I haven't read the later Earthsea volumes yet. I always felt, when reading the trilogy, that they needed a bit more; Le Guin whetted one's appetite for more lore about her world, about which one doens't find out an awful lot .... Watership Down would qualify, if I were sure it counted as fantasy (I don't think it really does). ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1012280902 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:08:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:08:22 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: a7q58-18744-t4-4426@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 8a40cf94 0a4258a1 d88e7e6e 1562aabe 52430923 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 05:08:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75008 Quoth "Paul R. Moon" in article : > Since nobody has mentioned it yet, how about "The Dark Tower" > trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan? I'm a pretty forgiving reader, and > remember being mildly entertained by them a dozen years ago when I > read them, but in terms of being an absolute copy of Lord of The > Rings, I they win. I'm afraid I haven't ever read any of McKiernan's books (my strongest momentum toward reading new fantasy got derailed many years ago by an extended collision with Piers Anthony, and I haven't really had time to read as much as I'd like since leaving high school). However, my impression is that, unlike the many LotR copycats mentioned in this thread, he consciously set out to write a story in Middle-earth. That should get him points for honesty, at the very least. :) As I recall (which may not be very well), he wasn't able to publish it in that form due to copyright concerns, so he made a fair number of changes... just enough to stay out of legal trouble. That may have let him in for trouble of another sort, though: Tolkien fans who thought the similarity between his story's setting and Middle-earth was _not_ supposed to be obvious. As I said earlier, I haven't read the books in question (or really even talked to him about them), so I don't have a lot to say one way or the other about how proper such a project is in the first place. Incidentally, Dennis McKiernan has occasionally posted to these groups. You might be able to find previous comments of his on this issue on groups.google.com. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Jon Hall" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:12:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.83.14.149 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1012288363 12.83.14.149 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:12:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:12:43 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74844 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > DS God help me, when I was working at Barnes and Noble a few years back, a manager gave me a free promotional copy of a book by R. A. Salvatore. I think it was called The Demon Awakens or some such thing. For politeness's sake, I read the whole thing, but it made me physically ill. Not that the book was vulgar or morally repugnant--it was just a bottomlessly awful series of cliches and stock characters. When I glimpse Salvatore's name on a cover in the bookstore now I shudder. -- Jon Hall jon_hayley_hall@hotmail.com "My contention is that trusting credulity may be normal and healthy in a child but it can become an unhealthy and reprehensible gullibility in an adult." --Richard Dawkins, "Unweaving the Rainbow" ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 29 Jan 2002 10:13:59 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012299239 14840 172.20.76.33 (29 Jan 2002 10:13:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 10:13:59 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-x2.support.nl!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75056 In article , Jason Mulligan wrote: > That said, I quite enjoyed it. Especially the Raistlin/Caramon > relationship. Enough to read Legends, which I enjoyed even more. Thats > not to say I'd put it in the same class as Tolkien. Yes. Legends was better. And Raistlin was of course the best character in either of them. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:44:36 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C567D14.451A2320@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5546EF.BDF95515@gmx.de> <3C555A84.2D57E7B4@gmx.de> <3C55CE1F.6E1E30D5@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!195.129.110.18.MISMATCH!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75461 Tiffany Case wrote: > > Ingeborg Denner wrote: > > > > > > > He created suspense by a simple formula I learned from his books and > > have copied occasionally since, but I also learned from his books > > What's the suspense formula? A 'something dark and dangerous is lurking in the background - you never see it, but it's going to get you'. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:51:41 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3C567EBD.C44F9A43@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75549 Aris Katsaris wrote: > > "paulh" wrote in message > news:p9d95uopp4vkof0ecg1sb6gir4eucolo8e@4ax.com... > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:34:50 GMT, "dornford" > > wrote: > > > > >A quote from memory: The Royal Duchess is advising the young princess upon > > >expected standards of behaviour at her first Royal banquet. "... And do not > > >laugh at any errors in deportment by another - and most particularly, do not > > >break wind yourself. Nothing is more conspicuous than a farting princess." > > > > Aye... hes' one of the best.... > > I'm just saying this as a data-point -- but if the best example you two can > give us of his being "witty" is a fart joke, I'll definitely give him a pass. > Some > people don't find "low-brow" to be synonymous to "wit". What Vance does is understating the outrageous. Everything's completely 'normal', only that every few sentences something completely 'out there' is mentioned as if it was hardly worth noticing. Other authors build a whole short story (or book, or trilogy, or 4000 page series) on one idea or strangeness, Vance throws ideas around as if they were a dime a dozen. It gets a little confusing in his longer works, occasionally. I'd recommend 'The Dying Earth', which is short and clever and has all that I like best about Vance. inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:54:13 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: fylliraftur.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012305255 11194 129.240.65.198 (29 Jan 2002 11:54:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 11:54:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74475 Orac wrote: > In article <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no>, > Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > I found the first book rather bland (even if the prologue was good), and the > > second was *far* too much of a retread of the first. The third picked up a > > bit, and the fourth was actually pretty good. Then things started going > > downhill again, and some of the subplots became blindingly repetitive and > > tedious. > > "Some" of the plots? Heck, nearly all the plots became blindingly > repetitive and tedious after the fourth book.... Well, bear in mind I quit after the sixth...:-) -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:04:06 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: fylliraftur.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012309446 11511 129.240.65.198 (29 Jan 2002 13:04:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 13:04:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74484 Ingeborg Denner wrote: > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > "David Salo" wrote in message > > news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > > > Guy Gavriel Kay's first two volumes of "The Fionavar Tapestry" > > I found that one extremely boring -- not outrageously bad, only boring > -- but if I ever get it in English I'm going to give it a second > chance. Can't trust translations... Interestingly, we now have "Fionavar" nominated as both best and worst example :-) - with me inclined towards the former side. Admittedly, the first volume in particular is *very* derivative of LotR (almost to the point of exemplifying the old aphorism about the original parts not being good and the good parts not being original), but I think the two next volumes improve considerably in that respect, to the point where the first also improves on re-reading. Yes, he does have something of a "kitchen-sink" approach to assembling his world (viz. the Arthurian elements), and it's not _original_ fantasy in the way that, say, Lord of Light is, but it some of the best "high fantasy" I've read. Oh, and my choice as very best fantasy would probably be Martin's "Song of Ice of Fire". Political intrigue aplenty, shades-of-gray characters throughout, magic used _sparingly_ (cough*Jordan*cough) and effectively, and an author completely willing to kill off the his best-loved and/or central characters. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:15:58 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75572 Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > Oh, and my choice as very best fantasy would probably be Martin's "Song > of Ice of Fire". Political intrigue aplenty, shades-of-gray characters > throughout, magic used _sparingly_ (cough*Jordan*cough) and effectively, > and an author completely willing to kill off the his best-loved and/or > central characters. It's at least the best I read in the last 5 years... maybe 10. I suddenly noticed how much I had become used to mediocre stuff... Anyone here has any opinions on Tad Williams? inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:38:21 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1012315101 14019 129.241.210.168 (29 Jan 2002 14:38:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:38:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.39.3.168!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74961 In article <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no>, Leiv Hodne wrote: > >Interestingly, we now have "Fionavar" nominated as both best and worst >example :-) - with me inclined towards the former side. Admittedly, the >first volume in particular is *very* derivative of LotR I found it to be more derivative of the Silmarillion, actually. Hardly surprising, considering what G.G. Kay had previously been doing... [snip] >Yes, he does have something of a >"kitchen-sink" approach to assembling his world (viz. the Arthurian >elements), and it's not _original_ fantasy in the way that, say, Lord of >Light is, but it some of the best "high fantasy" I've read. IMHO it does suffer a bit from having nearly everything stuffed into it, but it manages to not burst at the seams. >Oh, and my choice as very best fantasy would probably be Martin's "Song >of Ice of Fire". Yes, that one is very good (and evil) so far, but it's definitely not what you'd call a Tolkien clone. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:18:18 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: fylliraftur.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012317499 12076 129.240.65.198 (29 Jan 2002 15:18:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 15:18:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74492 Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y wrote: > In article <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no>, > Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > >Interestingly, we now have "Fionavar" nominated as both best and worst > >example :-) - with me inclined towards the former side. Admittedly, the > >first volume in particular is *very* derivative of LotR > > I found it to be more derivative of the Silmarillion, actually. Hardly > surprising, considering what G.G. Kay had previously been doing... Bit of both, perhaps. After all, you do have your Gandalf- Saruman- Thorin- Aragon- and Gondor-analogues. Rakoth is perhaps a little more Melkor than Sauron..... > > >Oh, and my choice as very best fantasy would probably be Martin's "Song > >of Ice of Fire". > > Yes, that one is very good (and evil) so far, but it's definitely not > what you'd call a Tolkien clone. Oh, absolutely not. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 29 Jan 2002 07:25:01 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201290725.4a27aeb8@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.125.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012317902 23492 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 15:25:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 15:25:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75395 David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > I've never been flim-flammed into reading anything -- I read material by choice, not because of some stupid cover blurb. In any case, most non-Tolkin fantasy I have read isn't that crappy, some of it may be a bit mediocre, but I have a preference for the genre after all, so I tend to be a bit forgiving. In my experience, however, game-related fiction tends to be pretty poor. ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 29 Jan 2002 07:34:26 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.125.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012318467 23742 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 15:34:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 15:34:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!32858!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75319 Orac wrote in message news:... > > > > > > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have been generally getting shorter. Which means Jordan isn't making much of an effort to put in extra words he can get paid for... ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 29 Jan 2002 07:42:39 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.125.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012318960 23988 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 15:42:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 15:42:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75289 "pawn" wrote in message news:... > Norseman wrote in message > news:FEW48.2838$tn2.63123@news4.ulv.nextra.no... > > "pawn" skrev i melding > > news:AbW48.1161$l5.49545@read2.cgocable.net... > > > Without a doubt, the Dragonlance Cronicles. Written by children, > admired by > > > fools. > > > > Count me in on that one. Beyond some comic relief courtesy of Fizban that > > actually made me chuckle out loud, this was a travesty. And unlike the > LoTR: > > FoTR movie, this one gets worse if you come back for seconds. (I got the > set > > as a well intended gift a couple of years ago, so I felt I had to red them > > again.) > > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > story was derived from their campaign. > Not exactly. Dragonlance Chronicles were written as compainion books to a series of D&D adventures published at the same time. That accounts for some of the weak points in the books. Chronicles are Weis and Hickman's weakest DRagonlance book; I've read some of the later ones and they're better. But as bad as some around here think Dragonlance is bad, believe me when I say most other game-related fiction is much worse. ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:45:54 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3c56d193.2051908@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-569.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74876 On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:15:58 +0100, Ingeborg Denner posted the following: > > >Leiv Hodne wrote: >> >> >> Oh, and my choice as very best fantasy would probably be Martin's "Song >> of Ice of Fire". Political intrigue aplenty, shades-of-gray characters >> throughout, magic used _sparingly_ (cough*Jordan*cough) and effectively, >> and an author completely willing to kill off the his best-loved and/or >> central characters. > >It's at least the best I read in the last 5 years... maybe 10. I >suddenly noticed how much I had become used to mediocre stuff... > >Anyone here has any opinions on Tad Williams? He is my favorite non-Tolkien fantasy writer. I enjoy all the stuff he's written, although he tends to be long-winded sometimes (especially in Otherland -- that should have been one book shorter.) -Chris ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:47:22 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3c56d1e5.2133890@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-517.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74916 On 29 Jan 2002 07:34:26 -0800, the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) posted the following: >Orac wrote in message news:... >> > > >> > >> > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern >> > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. >> >> Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > >Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have >been generally getting shorter. Which means Jordan isn't making much >of an effort to put in extra words he can get paid for... The problem with Jordan's recent books is that there are too many characters and subplots scattered around the world, and he doesn't devote as much time with each one as he used to. It also seems to take much longer to do things than it used to. However, I still enjoy the series a lot and will keep reading it until it ends. :-) -Chris ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:07:34 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3c56513d.15454673@news.saix.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c556783.45655778@news.earthlink.net> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-03-p70.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1012324226 27238 155.239.196.70 (29 Jan 2002 17:10:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 17:10:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74686 On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:08:16 GMT, mplum1834@earthlinkREMOVE.net (Marc Plum) wrote: >On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:01:02 GMT, David Salo wrote: > >I'll mention Piers Anthony's "Xanth" series as an example. Not that >it started out all that badly. It's also not that close to Tolkien, >although it's definitely fantasy. What I object to is series of the >kind that just never stop. The author finds a successful formula and >just keeps on churning out book after book after book . . . . Okay, he >needs to make a living. I just prefer writers who stop milking it >when they have nothing more to say. A good example of that is William Horwood's "Duncton" sexology. It's not related to Lord of the Rings. The first book, "Duncton Wood" was an attempt to emulate Richard Adams's "Watership Down", with moles instead of rabbits. It wasn't a bad book -- in fact I'd say it was as good as "Watership Down". For a long time there was no follow-up. It was a stand-alone book like "Watership Down". Then, about ten years later, a coupl of sequels appeared, to mmke a trilogy. They were not as good as the first book, but not too bad. They were more negative, took a more jaundiced view of life, and got quite ugly in places. Then another three appeared, to make a sexology. I got the impression that Horwood was pressured by his publishers into producing more, and that he didn't want to, so he tried very hard to make each book more gross and revolting than the next so that the publishers woudl say "enough". And I think most reader would say "too much". The last one was so bad that I'll never be tempted to buy anything written by Horwood, ever again. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:02:42 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 6 Message-ID: <5tod5ugn98ujj6ies2q5id6undjqmcjf8k@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c556783.45655778@news.earthlink.net> <3c56513d.15454673@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-440.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75728 On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:07:34 GMT, hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote: |A good example of that is William Horwood's "Duncton" sexology. Oh, you mean >books< !! LOL! ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:59:59 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3C56F12F.9F0C182B@law.harvard.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <%a_48.465240$oj3.87839681@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74785 David Flood wrote: > > Jordan, definitely. > > He had the supreme neck to have *exactly* the same sub-plots (Rand vs. Joe > Random Forsaken who's gotten control of a country; Rand vs. the 'bad' Aiel; > the women in a city, looking for something etcetc.) repeat in several > successive books, with only minor changes of details :( > Try Christopher Stasheff - the same plot for books 'n books (at least, if the summaries of the later one are accurate; I never read beyond the first 3) How many evil kingdoms can dance on the head of a pin--or in an alternate Europe? emilie ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:10:41 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p042.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1012331480 13452 212.205.253.42 (29 Jan 2002 19:11:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:11:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.telia-iberia.com!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74804 "Leiv Hodne" wrote in message news:3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no... > Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y wrote: > > > I found it to be more derivative of the Silmarillion, actually. Hardly > > surprising, considering what G.G. Kay had previously been doing... > > Bit of both, perhaps. After all, you do have your Gandalf- Saruman- Thorin- > Aragon- and Gondor-analogues. Rakoth is perhaps a little more Melkor than > Sauron..... Rakoth Maugrim being like Morgoth Bauglir? With his fortress on the North? Unraveling the Tapestry/Music of the Ainur? Would never have thought about it. I mean does this guys think it *clever* of himself, making even the names he uses so damn similar? I didn't only feel I was reading a rip-off, I felt as if the guy was shoving it down my throat. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:22:43 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3C56F683.A9B9D57C@law.harvard.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74800 Orac wrote: > > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > > But that could describe many books by Piers Anthony. Which one are you > talking about? :-) > Piers Anthony wouldn't be nearly as bad if he would stop all series at the first book. The first Xanth was quite readable, as was the first Incarnations of Immortality. My impression was that those earlier books had the benefit of stronger editing. I read so much bad fantasy in my youth that I'm strapped to recall any particular titles or authors. There were a couple D&D clones (not TSR I don't believe, the more generic variety) which were so bad I couldn't bear to finish them. I do recall an entertaining D&D rip-off which probably did evolve from some roleplaying campaign - Eve Forward's Villains by Necessity. Silly parody fluff that knew better than to try to aspire to satire. On the side of good, a couple books to which I'm partial that I haven't seen mentioned: Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword - arguably preteen girl wish-fantasy, complete with prince and horses, but has a magic to it all its own. Janny Wurts's The War of Light & Shadows - a few Tolkien riffs and some of the densest prose in the genre, but once you get into it the characters are compelling; as it's a series-in-progress final judgment cannot be passed but if the story is not in fact going somewhere, then it is faking it well. Reading Tad Williams's Memory Sorrow & Thorn now, glad to find the 2nd book moves because the first had a terribly slow start - far too many words for no purpose. emilie ###### From: boru@suite224.net (Luke Gallagher) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 29 Jan 2002 12:19:47 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: <19a2e39b.0201291219.6bdfcf11@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290725.4a27aeb8@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.131.247.214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012335588 32209 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 20:19:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 20:19:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75557 The Sword of Shannara is one fo the worst, followed by Robert Jordan's works. I also found David Eddings to be pretty bad. As for good, I rank the Black Company series by Glen Cook as a second place finisher to Tolkien in my book, as well as his Dread Empire series. Great characters, terrific battle scenes and a great plot line. He also doesn't hesitate to kill main characters off, so reading the books are very tense. Your mind cannot rely on "oh, he's been in the last four books, Cook won't kill him" to get you past the dangerous parts of the plot. Really a great series. Roger Zelazny's Amber series is also up there for me, as is LeGuinn's Earthsea trilogy (didn't care for the fourth book). I also love any fantasy by Jack Vance. But I doubt I'll ever read anything as good as LOTR. ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:49:58 +0000 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3C571906.93681686@hotmail.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-2385.monkey.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1012340865 31557 217.135.217.81 (29 Jan 2002 21:47:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 21:47:45 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74546 Ingeborg Denner wrote: [snip] > > Anyone here has any opinions on Tad Williams? > Yup. I strongly enjoyed "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn", as well as his short story in "Legends" ("Legends", by the way, was the reason for my trying George R.R. Martin. I would strongly recommend reading it - it contains short stories by a number of authors, including Martin, Williams, Jordan, Pratchett, Stephen King, Silverberg and others). I was not quite as impressed with "Otherland", although I bought Book 3 before giving up. It seems to suffer from the Jordan curse (Wheel of OverTime, anyone?) of padding and too many plot elements. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Dedalus" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290725.4a27aeb8@posting.google.com> <19a2e39b.0201291219.6bdfcf11@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:22:19 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.94.117.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1012342935 65.94.117.18 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:22:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:22:15 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75297 "Luke Gallagher" wrote in message news:19a2e39b.0201291219.6bdfcf11@posting.google.com... > The Sword of Shannara is one fo the worst, followed by Robert Jordan's > works. I also found David Eddings to be pretty bad. > > As for good, I rank the Black Company series by Glen Cook as a second > place finisher to Tolkien in my book, as well as his Dread Empire > series. Great characters, terrific battle scenes and a great plot > line. He also doesn't hesitate to kill main characters off, so > reading the books are very tense. Your mind cannot rely on "oh, he's > been in the last four books, Cook won't kill him" to get you past the > dangerous parts of the plot. Really a great series. > > Roger Zelazny's Amber series is also up there for me, as is LeGuinn's > Earthsea trilogy (didn't care for the fourth book). I also love any > fantasy by Jack Vance. > > But I doubt I'll ever read anything as good as LOTR. Ooh, yes, Zelazny's first Chronicles of Amber is amazing...and wouldn't it translate well into the movie medium. Has anyone bought the rights to this one? (Gabriel Byrne as Corwin!) Dedalus P.S. Bombadil was Tolkien (proof by algebra to follow) ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <5MF58.7063$O5.17636@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.27.125 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012344961 212.151.27.125 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:56:01 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:56:01 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-27-125.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:58:19 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75181 Orac wrote: >In article , > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: [snip] >> A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > >But that could describe many books by Piers Anthony. Which one are you >talking about? :-) [GRUNT] I don't even remember the name. [SNØRFL] ”I'm looking forward to going to the Imperial City. They say it's even bigger than Wal-Mart.” (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: jernau@hotmail.com (Jernau) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 29 Jan 2002 15:23:59 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 35 Message-ID: <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.46.200.235 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012346640 4984 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!uucp.muenster.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75259 David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760% > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? The worst fantasy on my list would have to be the Eye of the World series by Jordan and the Dragonbone Chair series by Tad Williams. How bad? Well Jordan's first book seemed somewhat promising at first but before I got halfway through with it I was already sick of his pseudo orientalism in his magic system, the little yin-yang thingy with one half poisoned by the Dark Lord. Then there were the Aes Sedai who are total ripoffs of the Bene Gesserit from Dune. In short, there was not a single character that I could identify with or cared about and his world wasn't interesting enough to draw me in and make me care. The Dragonbone stuff was just as bad with his mysterious elves, thinly veiled pseudo Christianism and eskimo ogres (Binibik) disagreed with me also. I just didn't care about Simon and the world didn't interest me. I tried reading both series beyond the first books but finally realized after a couple of dozen tries that it was a waste of time. But as bad as these series were, they cannot compare to McKiernen's Mithgar series. Talk about rip-off! Well since I've bashed some very popular authors, I'll throw out a few that I did enjoy. Iain M. Banks, I know, not fantasy but good stuff and big interesting ideas nonetheless. George R.R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice series has also been much very enjoyable. Even Dave Eddings was more enjoyable than McKiernen, Williams and Jordan's dreck. Jernau ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no> <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:28:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012354088 24.190.150.253 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:28:08 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:28:08 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!gestalt.direcpc.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75683 In article <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no>, Leiv Hodne wrote: > Orac wrote: > > > In article <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no>, > > Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > > > > I found the first book rather bland (even if the prologue was good), and > > > the > > > second was *far* too much of a retread of the first. The third picked up > > > a > > > bit, and the fourth was actually pretty good. Then things started going > > > downhill again, and some of the subplots became blindingly repetitive and > > > tedious. > > > > "Some" of the plots? Heck, nearly all the plots became blindingly > > repetitive and tedious after the fourth book.... > > Well, bear in mind I quit after the sixth...:-) I'm a bigger glutton for punishment than you, I guess. I'm struggling to finish the ninth and most recent book... -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C56F683.A9B9D57C@law.harvard.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 37 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:33:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012354436 24.190.150.253 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:33:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:33:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!gestalt.direcpc.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75656 In article <3C56F683.A9B9D57C@law.harvard.edu>, Emilie Karr wrote: > Orac wrote: > > > > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > > > A book by Piers Anthony. It was indescribably bad. I never finished it. > > > > But that could describe many books by Piers Anthony. Which one are you > > talking about? :-) > > > Piers Anthony wouldn't be nearly as bad if he would stop all series at > the first book. The first Xanth was quite readable, as was the first > Incarnations of Immortality. My impression was that those earlier books > had the benefit of stronger editing. You may well be right. My experience with Piers Anthony series is that the first book is usually pretty good, with a rapid deterioration after that, as with the Xanth books. > I read so much bad fantasy in my youth that I'm strapped to recall any > particular titles or authors. There were a couple D&D clones (not TSR I > don't believe, the more generic variety) which were so bad I couldn't > bear to finish them. Oh, I read some absolutely awful fantasy when I was in high school and early on in college... [Snip] -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Eric Root Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:35:13 -0500 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services, LLC Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3C574DD0.ED256833@swva.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554647.11308C6@gmx.de> Reply-To: eroot@swva.net NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-069-ct11.citizens.swva.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 1012354515 148591 66.37.75.69 (30 Jan 2002 01:35:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:35:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75738 Yep, I read _Sword of Shannara_ when it first came out and it was so bad, I have never read any of Brooks' later books, even though I heard he had gotten a lot better. I just couldn't imagine he had gotten enough orders of magnitude better for me to take a chance. -Eric Root Ingeborg Denner wrote: > David Salo wrote: > > > > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > Sword of Shanarra. It did not contain a single original thought or line. > > inge > > -- > "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his > own way." > - Robert Frost > === > -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 31 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:36:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012354614 24.190.150.253 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:36:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:36:54 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75691 In article <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com>, the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) wrote: > Orac wrote in message > news:... > > > > > > > > > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > > > > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > > Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have > been generally getting shorter. Shorter? The last two or three have all still been well over 600 pages. >Which means Jordan isn't making much > of an effort to put in extra words he can get paid for... Perhaps, but sometimes I think he gets paid by the plot element, given the multiple plots and subplots he has going on at the same time, to the point where they're impossible to keep track of without a great deal of effort. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: "Darren Kuik" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:09:14 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.81.26.192 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 1012363673 216.81.26.192 (Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:07:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:07:53 CST Organization: MTS Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74899 "David Salo" wrote in message news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net... > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > David Drake's Lord of the Isles??? I read the first book only. It was pretty bad, I thought. Jordan is pretty weak, although I'm struggling through it. Ditto for Brooks. I don't mind Terry Goodkind, and I really enjoyed Raymond Feist. I read some of Tolkien's sources and found them pretty interesting too. But I don't read much anymore so I haven't got much past these. Darren ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:53:38 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C57C2A2.FB08F94F@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C56F683.A9B9D57C@law.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!newsfeed.esat.net!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75545 Orac wrote: > > In article <3C56F683.A9B9D57C@law.harvard.edu>, > Emilie Karr wrote: > > > > I read so much bad fantasy in my youth that I'm strapped to recall any > > particular titles or authors. There were a couple D&D clones (not TSR I > > don't believe, the more generic variety) which were so bad I couldn't > > bear to finish them. > > Oh, I read some absolutely awful fantasy when I was in high school and > early on in college... Some reminiscensing... I read the LoTR when I had just turned 13, and it was the first fantasy I *ever* read, other than children's books. After re-reading the LotR until my paperback edition fell apart I tried to get that experience again. I read *any* fantasy (and soon SF) I could get my hands on for nearly eight years, and discovered Sturgeon's Law all by myself... inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: "Light" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:59:20 +0100 Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: c114.laurentii.lu.se X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news01.chello.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.lth.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74535 "Ingeborg Denner" skrev i meddelandet news:3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de... > > > Anyone here has any opinions on Tad Williams? > > inge > > -- > "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his > own way." I read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and found it quite good. Usually I try to avoid the "Tolkien-lookalikes" in the fantasy-genre but I had already read the three first Otherland-books and liked his style. The Otherland-series is much better though, it has originality (both in setting and main characters) and creates an atmosphere of suspension... It is not too obvious where he is going with the plot and it is intriguingly complicated. /Light ###### From: Bryan Maloney Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 30 Jan 2002 14:39:16 GMT Organization: Flarg Wa Zoo Lines: 25 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com) Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1012401556 21056 24.58.37.210 (30 Jan 2002 14:39:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2002 14:39:16 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75136 David Salo wrote in news:270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net: > Did you ever feel the need, after reading Tolkien, to go out and > read some other fantasy books? Were you, perhaps, attracted by those > blurbs on the cover which pronounced it "The best fantasy epic since > Tolkien!"? Did you then find out that the book was actually complete > crap? Admit it -- you know you did. > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? I really can't answer this question because I have a distaste for "fantasy"--but I like Tolkien. Probably because Tolkien's work isn't "fantasy" so much as "has archaic and magical elements". -- "Why then did the passengers on the plane that went down near Pittsburgh decide to resist the hijackers and prevent them from completing their mission? Because they knew: their relatives had told them by cell phone that the World Trade Center had already been attacked by hijacked planes. They were armed with final awareness of the nature of the evil they faced. So armed, they could act. So armed, they did." --Time Magazine ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:24:25 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3c581de6.7810939@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-161.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!10845!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74932 On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:36:54 GMT, Orac posted the following: >In article <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com>, > the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) wrote: > >> Orac wrote in message >> news:... >> > > > >> > > >> > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern >> > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. >> > >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) >> >> Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have >> been generally getting shorter. > >Shorter? The last two or three have all still been well over 600 pages. Lord of Chaos was by far the longest book yet, and after that they have been steadily dropping in page length. That's fine in itself, but he continues to write in a verbose style even though the page length has dropped, so it seems like nothing ever happens. He either needs to return to the style of books 1-4 (and arguably 5) where a lot of things happened, or increase the book length. -Chris ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:28:14 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3c581e71.7949975@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-978.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74898 On 29 Jan 2002 15:23:59 -0800, jernau@hotmail.com (Jernau) posted the following: >David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760% > The >Dragonbone stuff was just as bad with his mysterious elves, thinly >veiled pseudo Christianism Although Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn does contain a religion that is like Christianity, it is not done as a veiled attempt at evangelism or conversion. If you read more of the work, you notice that all of the cultures are based on real cultures. (In a way, this makes the Sithi acceptable to me, because *all* of the races/cultures are based on other cultures, not just the Sithi borrowed from Elves.) -Chris ###### From: MCV Fenderson Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 30 Jan 2002 17:13:24 GMT Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: keg.cs.vu.nl User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!amsnews01.chello.com!news-x2.support.nl!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!surfnet.nl!star.cs.vu.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74593 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ronald O. Christian wrote: : On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:18:54 GMT, "Bill Silvey" : wrote: :>"Paul Kellaway" wrote in message :>news:a31hqa$14il5i$1@ID-121285.news.dfncis.de... :> :>> And you married her! :> :>Ah yes, but my wife's middle name is Arwen. (I kid you not. My :>sister-in-law's middle name is Galadriel. Yes, her parents were *that* much :>into Tolkien). : Poor kid.... I don't think Arwen or Galadriel is really such a bad deal. I've got a cousin (thrice removed, or whatever the correct genealogical indication is for someone with the same great-grandparents) called Frodo. -- mcv. <>< ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.27.164 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012413844 212.151.27.164 (Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:04:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:04:04 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-27-164.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:06:20 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75209 MCV Fenderson wrote: [snip] >I've got a cousin (thrice removed, or whatever the correct genealogical >indication is for someone with the same great-grandparents) called >Frodo. Frode is a perfectly normal name in Denmark. Öjevind ###### Message-ID: <3C583AE5.96613473@earthlink.net> From: geoffrey kimbrough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C56F683.A9B9D57C@law.harvard.edu> <3C57C2A2.FB08F94F@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:32:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.249.97.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1012415532 216.249.97.6 (Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:32:12 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:32:12 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:32:12 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74681 Ingeborg Denner wrote: > I read the LoTR when I had just turned 13, and it was the first fantasy > I *ever* read, other than children's books. After re-reading the LotR > until my paperback edition fell apart I tried to get that experience > again. I read *any* fantasy (and soon SF) I could get my hands on for > nearly eight years, and discovered Sturgeon's Law all by myself... Same exact story. I think this is exactly what everybody on this thread is saying, too. Geoffrey ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:13:49 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74759 MCV Fenderson wrote: > > I've got a cousin (thrice removed, or whatever the correct genealogical > indication is for someone with the same great-grandparents) called > Frodo. > ouch! I hope it's a boy, at least... And that'd be a 2nd cousin - child of your parents' first cousins. The 'removed' refer to the difference in generation (your parents' first cousins are your first cousins once removed). emilie (one must know these things if one attends French-Canadian family reunions!) ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:38:45 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C584BC5.3D082E74@law.harvard.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3c581e71.7949975@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74777 Chris Kern wrote: > > Although Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn does contain a religion that is > like Christianity, it is not done as a veiled attempt at evangelism or > conversion. If you read more of the work, you notice that all of the > cultures are based on real cultures. (In a way, this makes the Sithi > acceptable to me, because *all* of the races/cultures are based on > other cultures, not just the Sithi borrowed from Elves.) > I'm halfway thru Stone of Farewell and actually the Sithi seemed less a Tolkien element to me than much of the rest (the split scenes between battling kings enduring seiges while the fate of the world rests upon a small party of adventuers; the little people - okay, they're Eskimos more than hobbits, but why do they have to be halfling-sized? And there's been a mention of cave-dwellers called 'dwarrows', a deliberate homage?) The Sithi with their dark cousins and aversion to iron seem more like the traditional Fair Folk who Oberon and Titania ruled than Tolkien's elves. And I somewhat enjoy the pseudo-Christianity; its makes for a more distinctly medieval atmosphere, almost alt-universe. emilie ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:29:37 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3c586537.26070683@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3c581e71.7949975@news.newsguy.com> <3C584BC5.3D082E74@law.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-507.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74891 On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:38:45 -0500, Emilie Karr posted the following: >And >there's been a mention of cave-dwellers called 'dwarrows', a deliberate >homage?) Dwarrows is a word independent of Tolkien, so it could be argued that this is independent (remember that Tolkien borrowed heavily from things as well!) > The Sithi with their dark cousins and aversion to iron seem >more like the traditional Fair Folk who Oberon and Titania ruled than >Tolkien's elves. Their names are all Japanese-based (Amaterasu was the sun goddess of Japanese myth, and Jiriki means self-strength (or self-made)). >And I somewhat enjoy the pseudo-Christianity; its makes for a more >distinctly medieval atmosphere, almost alt-universe. I agree, I liked that as well. The only problem I have with it is that Osten Ard seems too small to have so many distinct religions and cultures in it, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief for that. -Chris ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:59:04 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1012427827 29870 130.231.6.54 (30 Jan 2002 21:57:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:57:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!newsfeed.rt.ru!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74726 "David Sulger" wrote in message news:3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com... > "pawn" wrote in message news:... > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > > story was derived from their campaign. > > > Not exactly. Dragonlance Chronicles were written as compainion books > to a series of D&D adventures published at the same time. That > accounts for some of the weak points in the books. Chronicles are > Weis and Hickman's weakest DRagonlance book; I've read some of the > later ones and they're better. But as bad as some around here think > Dragonlance is bad, believe me when I say most other game-related > fiction is much worse. Dragonlance is IMHO better than it's reputation, as long as you can ignore most obvious idioticisms that follow when they tried to make it consistent with a game, and as long as they are written by Hickman&Weis, who actually can write some, which you generally can't say about other DL bulk writers. Chronicles&Legends are good and easy read: Dragons of Summer Flame was readable. Haven't read others yet. Other H&W series - Deathgate - was quite ok, attempt to create something bit different (albeit with heavy AD&D influence), except last 1-2 volumes were bit of an anticlimax. I wonder who has movie rights for Dragonlance? Maybe success of LoTR awakens the Hollywood people to find more cash-cows. Chronicles might make an OK movie series. Now, Forgotten Realms(tm) books don't _quite_ get to the same level. I've read Salvatore's Drow trilogy and I didn't like it at all, with all the clichee and one-dimensional, often over-written dialogue and uninteresting characters. And Elaine Cunningham...is not better. 'nuff said. ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:21:52 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1012429195 603 130.231.6.54 (30 Jan 2002 22:19:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2002 22:19:55 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!10.0.4.27.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74724 "Jernau" wrote in message news:61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com... > Well since I've bashed some very popular authors, I'll throw out a few > that I did enjoy. Iain M. Banks, I know, not fantasy but good stuff > and big interesting ideas nonetheless. George R.R. Martin's Song of > Fire and Ice series has also been much very enjoyable. Even Dave > Eddings was more enjoyable than McKiernen, Williams and Jordan's > dreck. I very much liked Eddings when I picked up first book of Belgariad. Some of the characters were bit overdone but at least they had distinguishable personalities, and writing style avoided the pitfalls of being oversolemnic. Nevertheless I was somewhat relieved when I finished fifth book of Belgariad. "That was there, then" I thought. Too bad Mr (and Mrs) Eddings didn't think same way... First, they wrote another five volumes in same world, same plot, same characters....then they began new trilogy (Elenium) with same plot and characters, just different names, then they repeated Elenium trilogy as Tamuli with same plot, same characters, same world...and now they wrote Althalus, again same plot, characters, just different names...which mercifully lasted just one book. Plus all their cashing books like Belgarath the Sorceror et cetera (which was almost as bad as it's counterpart, Polgara the Sorceress). And all the time they have gone _worse_, characters have become boring and one-dimensional, worlds are thinner than the paper they've printed on, all villains are totally boring and uninteresting...I got fed up with this by book 8 or so, I've read all the rest of them only due sheer masochism: somehow I just want to see _how bad_ they can get. And they've got pretty low. Trust me. ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:33:57 +0000 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3C5874D5.5ABBD1BB@hotmail.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no> <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-942.alakazam.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1012429903 20227 217.135.14.174 (30 Jan 2002 22:31:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2002 22:31:43 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74592 Orac wrote: > > In article <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no>, > Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > Orac wrote: > > > > > In article <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no>, > > > Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > > > > > > > I found the first book rather bland (even if the prologue was good), and > > > > the > > > > second was *far* too much of a retread of the first. The third picked up > > > > a > > > > bit, and the fourth was actually pretty good. Then things started going > > > > downhill again, and some of the subplots became blindingly repetitive and > > > > tedious. > > > > > > "Some" of the plots? Heck, nearly all the plots became blindingly > > > repetitive and tedious after the fourth book.... > > > > Well, bear in mind I quit after the sixth...:-) > > I'm a bigger glutton for punishment than you, I guess. I'm struggling to > finish the ninth and most recent book... Keep going. There are actually signs that Jordan has picked up on the dissatisfaction and is going to get the plot moving! I finished it and thought "Wow, something's happened at last!" -- Andy Cooke ###### From: MCV Fenderson Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 30 Jan 2002 23:41:02 GMT Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: keg.cs.vu.nl User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!news-x2.support.nl!surfnet.nl!star.cs.vu.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74538 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Emilie Karr wrote: : MCV Fenderson wrote: :> :> I've got a cousin (thrice removed, or whatever the correct genealogical :> indication is for someone with the same great-grandparents) called :> Frodo. :> : ouch! I hope it's a boy, at least... He is, and a pretty tall one at that (as far as I can remember, anyway, since I've only seen him once). : And that'd be a 2nd cousin - child of your parents' first cousins. The : 'removed' refer to the difference in generation (your parents' first : cousins are your first cousins once removed). In Dutch, these things aren't quite as well defined as this. First of all, 'cousin' (male) and 'nephew' are the same word (as are female cousin and niece), and then we paste a random number of "oud-" and "achter-" prefix in front of it. : emilie (one must know these things if one attends French-Canadian family : reunions!) -- mcv. <>< ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3c5474b5.63105009@news.vt.edu> <3C557A2A.429F9F65@ifi.uio.no> <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no> <3C5874D5.5ABBD1BB@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 33 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 02:05:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012442729 24.190.150.253 (Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:05:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:05:29 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!hub1.nntpserver.com!telocity-west!DirecTV-DSL!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75641 In article <3C5874D5.5ABBD1BB@hotmail.com>, Andy Cooke wrote: > Orac wrote: > > > > In article <3C568D65.21B3B753@ifi.uio.no>, > > Leiv Hodne wrote: > > > > > Orac wrote: > > > > "Some" of the plots? Heck, nearly all the plots became blindingly > > > > repetitive and tedious after the fourth book.... > > > > > > Well, bear in mind I quit after the sixth...:-) > > > > I'm a bigger glutton for punishment than you, I guess. I'm struggling to > > finish the ninth and most recent book... > > Keep going. There are actually signs that Jordan has picked up > on the dissatisfaction and is going to get the plot > moving! > I finished it and thought "Wow, something's happened at last!" When? I've just passed page 200 (hardcover) and not a whole hell of a lot has happened yet. Faile kidnapped, Perrin pining, Elayne farting around Caemlyn. that's about it. That's about a third of the way through the book. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> <3c581de6.7810939@news.newsguy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 39 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 02:08:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012442881 24.190.150.253 (Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:08:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:08:01 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75654 In article <3c581de6.7810939@news.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:36:54 GMT, Orac posted the > following: > > >In article <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com>, > > the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) wrote: > > > >> Orac wrote in message > >> news:... > >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > >> > >> Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have > >> been generally getting shorter. > > > >Shorter? The last two or three have all still been well over 600 pages. > > Lord of Chaos was by far the longest book yet, and after that they > have been steadily dropping in page length. That's fine in itself, > but he continues to write in a verbose style even though the page > length has dropped, so it seems like nothing ever happens. He either > needs to return to the style of books 1-4 (and arguably 5) where a lot > of things happened, or increase the book length. That's another thing I've noticed about the series as it's come along. Jordan's prose style has deteriorated. He seems to have developed this really annoying habit of using a lot of sentence fragments for emphasis. I checked the first couple of books. He didn't do it back then, but he does it an awful lot now, and in a way that's actually kind of jarring at first, then kind of annoying as he keeps doing it. Sometimes he does it several times in one page. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: Tamfiiris Gloruloke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.230.173 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:29:37 MET X-Trace: news4.ulv.nextra.no 1012462177 130.67.230.173 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:29:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news4.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75525 ZzinkWed, 30 Jan 2002 19:06:20 +0100, Öjevind Lång-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo: >Frode is a perfectly normal name in Denmark. and i know of several people who don't seem any burdened by being called it. -- Tamf 'The first ten million years were the worst,' said Marvin, 'and the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.' (Douglas Adams) ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:20:09 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: afvedur.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012479610 10799 129.240.66.76 (31 Jan 2002 12:20:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 12:20:10 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!asynchrone-stat!deine.net!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74507 Aris Katsaris wrote: > "Leiv Hodne" wrote in message > news:3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no... > > Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y wrote: > > > > > I found it to be more derivative of the Silmarillion, actually. Hardly > > > surprising, considering what G.G. Kay had previously been doing... > > > > Bit of both, perhaps. After all, you do have your Gandalf- Saruman- Thorin- > > Aragon- and Gondor-analogues. Rakoth is perhaps a little more Melkor than > > Sauron..... > > Rakoth Maugrim being like Morgoth Bauglir? With his fortress on the North? > Unraveling the Tapestry/Music of the Ainur? Would never have thought about > it. Did you miss my post where I said the first volume in particular was *very* derivative? > > I mean does this guys think it *clever* of himself, making even the names > he uses so damn similar? I didn't only feel I was reading a rip-off, I felt > as if the guy was shoving it down my throat. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:51:53 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C593DE9.1C88BD0F@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75555 Emilie Karr wrote: > > > And that'd be a 2nd cousin - child of your parents' first cousins. The > 'removed' refer to the difference in generation (your parents' first > cousins are your first cousins once removed). Thanks! I've been wondering about that for years... inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: Ingeborg Denner Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:59:12 +0100 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r3292.erlf.siemens.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!news.fth.sbs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75511 Yama wrote: > > And all the time they have gone _worse_, characters have become boring and > one-dimensional, worlds are thinner than the paper they've printed on, all > villains are totally boring and uninteresting...I got fed up with this by > book 8 or so, I've read all the rest of them only due sheer masochism: > somehow I just want to see _how bad_ they can get. That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot of patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a common thing to say. I wonder: Is this masochism, resignation ("there is nothing better that I didn't read already"), boredom ("It's bad but watching the flies crawl up the window pane is worse"), or unquenchable optimism ("It has to get better some day, it will, I'm sure")? Opinions? inge -- "I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost === -- Stories, RPG & stuff. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3c581e71.7949975@news.newsguy.com> <3C584BC5.3D082E74@law.harvard.edu> <3c586537.26070683@news.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.30.115 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012482681 212.151.30.115 (Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:11:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:11:21 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-30-115.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:13:38 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75231 Chris Kern wrote: >On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:38:45 -0500, Emilie Karr > posted the following: > >>And >>there's been a mention of cave-dwellers called 'dwarrows', a deliberate >>homage?) > >Dwarrows is a word independent of Tolkien, so it could be argued that >this is independent (remember that Tolkien borrowed heavily from >things as well!) But it is rather unlikely that the author would have known this extremely archaic word if it hadn't been for Tolkien, don't you think? Öjevind ”Either there are some really old and bald Ewoks living under the kitchen sink, or else Yoda has a secret family.” (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.30.115 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012482834 212.151.30.115 (Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:13:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:13:54 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-30-115.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:16:11 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75242 Yama wrote: [snip] >I very much liked Eddings when I picked up first book of Belgariad. Some of >the characters were bit overdone but at least they had distinguishable >personalities, and writing style avoided the pitfalls of being oversolemnic. >Nevertheless I was somewhat relieved when I finished fifth book of >Belgariad. "That was there, then" I thought. > >Too bad Mr (and Mrs) Eddings didn't think same way... I couldn't agree more, though I seem to lack your patience; I stopped reading Eddings after "The Tamuli". Öjevind ”Dead Ewoks don’t talk. Of course, living Ewoks don’t talk either.” (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: Iain Parkinson Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:35:16 +0800 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> <77u85uc0eh3nioeie94e3ki7mdrfc5j3m4@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: parko.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: parko.demon.co.uk:212.228.222.120 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1012516673 nnrp-01:20136 NO-IDENT parko.demon.co.uk:212.228.222.120 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!parko.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75114 > From: Ronald O. Christian > Organization: AT&T Broadband > Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:03:31 GMT > Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:08:14 GMT, Orac wrote: > >> In article , >> Ronald O. Christian wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:30:06 GMT, "dornford" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> Another question is which was the best. Without doubt Steven Donaldson's >>>>> chronicles of Thomas Covenant were, as the blurb on the front said, >>>>> comparable to Tolkien at his best >>>>> >>>> As long as you didn't mind the miderable main character, and the generally >>>> miserable world and story line... >>> >>> Somehow I got through all six of them. If you weren't depressed going >>> in, you certainly were by the time you finally reached the end. >>> Yeesh. >> >> Yes, but that was part of its charm, wasn't it? > > I suppose. Sometimes a writer can gain notoriety by picking a single > factor and then absolutely wallowing in it for thousands of pages. > Piers Anthony with puns, Steve Donaldson with crushing depression. > > Not forgetting Donaldson's ridiculously laboured vocabulary - 'argute with analystic refulgence' for example. I forget which execrable tome contains that gem but the whole series was full of astonishing pseudo-erudition. Iain ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:11:06 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p052.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1012489906 17187 212.205.253.52 (31 Jan 2002 15:11:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:11:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74895 "Leiv Hodne" wrote in message news:3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no... > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > "Leiv Hodne" wrote in message > > news:3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no... > > > > > > Bit of both, perhaps. After all, you do have your Gandalf- Saruman- Thorin- > > > Aragon- and Gondor-analogues. Rakoth is perhaps a little more Melkor than > > > Sauron..... > > > > Rakoth Maugrim being like Morgoth Bauglir? With his fortress on the North? > > Unraveling the Tapestry/Music of the Ainur? Would never have thought about > > it. > > Did you miss my post where I said the first volume in particular was *very* > derivative? I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm adding to it. Anyway, it's mainly the setting and background that I felt to be derivative, not the "plotline" (which would limit this to the first volume - if the background was revealed in the second volume, you'd find that one to be the derivative one probably). I never bothered to get the third one, btw. *spoilers for the 2nd volume* The second volume's major problem was probably the chaotic addition of mythological stuff, whether they fitted or not. Mainly the boring Arthurian love triangle. (And there's also the Tolkien-ripoff about the Elves going all west through the sea. Except for the amusing addition by Kay of having them all devoured by a sea-monster. "You thought that Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf reached Aman? Hah! They became kraken-food instead!" ) And of course as a sidenote there's what I consider the ultra-major plothole of dividing up the 5 stones that kept Rakoth imprisoned, when *any* one of them can set him free. Eh???? If all five were required of course they ought to be separated, but separating them when one is enough by itself only increases fivefold his chances for release! Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:18:05 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p052.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1012490325 17575 212.205.253.52 (31 Jan 2002 15:18:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:18:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74806 "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message news:3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de... > > That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot of > patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and > detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a > common thing to say. > > I wonder: Is this masochism, resignation ("there is nothing better that > I didn't read already"), boredom ("It's bad but watching the flies crawl > up the window pane is worse"), or unquenchable optimism ("It has to get > better some day, it will, I'm sure")? I read all the Dune volumes, which IMO also steadily progressed from good to bad to worse... It was optimism - and the idea that it was all leading up to something, as the author seemed to imply. But that never came to pass, and I don't know if it's because the author died before writing a 7th book, or because he himself had completely lost the point of the books, if they ever had one... And there's something more, I guess... In all the darkness of his novels, there was the *occasional* bright glimmer of light. It shined brightly enough to sustain my hope for the next. Right now, the one I remember most was a moment when the love between the two siblings is shown in the third volume. All the more strong, because understated, IIRC. It's a long time since I've read it... Aris Katsaris ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:30:02 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3C59710A.32653997@law.harvard.edu> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74734 Aris Katsaris wrote: > > I read all the Dune volumes, which IMO also steadily progressed from good > to bad to worse... > > It was optimism - and the idea that it was all leading up to something, as the > author seemed to imply. But that never came to pass, and I don't know if > it's because the author died before writing a 7th book, or because he himself > had completely lost the point of the books, if they ever had one... > I have a very hard time not finishing a book I've started. The very worst that I couldn't push through I went and read the end anyway. No matter how cheesy the plot or cardboard the characters, there's always a part of me that wants to know how it all comes out in the end. More than anything, I read for the story, that magic of creating a reality all its own. Even if it's a half-baked, poorly conceived creation, once I've experienced it I need some kind of resolution to let it go. Fortunately I'm a pretty fast reader... On the other end of the spectrum is my sister, who can do things like get halfway through Two Towers, become distracted, and not pick up LotR again for three years. Never could understand that... > And there's something more, I guess... In all the darkness of his novels, there > was the *occasional* bright glimmer of light. It shined brightly enough to > sustain my hope for the next. Right now, the one I remember most was a > moment when the love between the two siblings is shown in the third volume. > All the more strong, because understated, IIRC. It's a long time since I've > read it... Was this the part when the sister is convincing herself her brother is dead...that's the only scene I can remember from the 3rd book. Never made it through the next one (God Emperor?) One major factor with me when it comes to series which start out good but go downhill is I have a tendency especially to become attached to characters, so will keep reading anything about them just to have more. This is probably why I stopped with Dune, since it starts skipping centuries and most of the people change (I can't quite remember, been a decade or so since I read those myself) Of course then there's authors who seem to fall entirely out of touch with their own characters, to the point that one is almost relieved when they are killed and cannot be further demolished (Vampire Chronicles, anyone?) emilie ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:30:09 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3c596fe0.7882525@news.newsguy.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-593.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74936 On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:18:05 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" posted the following: >It was optimism - and the idea that it was all leading up to something, as the >author seemed to imply. But that never came to pass, and I don't know if >it's because the author died before writing a 7th book, This is indeed the case. Frank Herbert's son has discovered files of notes about a planned 7th book, and according to the postnote to "House Atreides", he and Kevin Anderson are planning to work the notes/manuscripts into a book and publish it later (it's unclear exactly how much material Frank left behind, and how much interpolation Brian and Kevin are going to have to do.) I personally wish they would just go the HoME route and publish the notes word-for-word, but I guess public prefers a narrative. The theory is that Herbert eventually thought of it as a 7 book series, with an initial trilogy, a "bridging book" (God Emperor), and then a second trilogy. -Chris ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 31 Jan 2002 11:08:10 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201311108.774ae538@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> <3c56d1e5.2133890@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.124.219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012504090 4767 127.0.0.1 (31 Jan 2002 19:08:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 19:08:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75318 kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3c56d1e5.2133890@news.newsguy.com>... > On 29 Jan 2002 07:34:26 -0800, the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David > Sulger) posted the following: > > >Orac wrote in message news:... > >> > > > >> > > >> > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > >> > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > >> > >> Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > > > >Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have > >been generally getting shorter. Which means Jordan isn't making much > >of an effort to put in extra words he can get paid for... > > The problem with Jordan's recent books is that there are too many > characters and subplots scattered around the world, and he doesn't > devote as much time with each one as he used to. It also seems to > take much longer to do things than it used to. > > However, I still enjoy the series a lot and will keep reading it until > it ends. :-) > Yeah, I've said this before; my impression from reading the WoT is that Jordan had a pretty good idea of where he wanted to go for about the first 4 books. After that, his ideas don't seem to be as solidly developed. Also, I think publisher pressure might be part of the problem. Tor is making a lot of money on these books, so they might be rushing him a bit on it. Though I have to say, I'm still hooked on the series, and I'd like to know what happens. ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:11:54 -0800 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C5996FA.72827E56@erols.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYn7jAfs7nlEFdGkfaV3vbqcU6xMr46zmand+U52MuIjZHEn/BsvfZh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 2002 02:19:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74452 john thrum made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > I happened to have like the Sword of Shannara series. I like it, too. I keep the Shannara books I have in my special bookcase. Please don't top-post. > john thrum Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 31 Jan 2002 11:18:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201311118.4488932e@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com> <3c581de6.7810939@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.124.219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012504697 5093 127.0.0.1 (31 Jan 2002 19:18:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 19:18:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75292 kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3c581de6.7810939@news.newsguy.com>... > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:36:54 GMT, Orac posted the > following: > > >In article <3ac4908.0201290734.44fb1039@posting.google.com>, > > the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) wrote: > > > >> Orac wrote in message > >> news:... > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > >> > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > >> > > >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > >> > >> Of course. Some of the more recent book in the Wheel of Time have > >> been generally getting shorter. > > > >Shorter? The last two or three have all still been well over 600 pages. > > Lord of Chaos was by far the longest book yet, and after that they > have been steadily dropping in page length. That's fine in itself, > but he continues to write in a verbose style even though the page > length has dropped, so it seems like nothing ever happens. He either > needs to return to the style of books 1-4 (and arguably 5) where a lot > of things happened, or increase the book length. > I agree with you only in the former case. There were some interesting plot developments in books 8 and 9 that weren't really followed up on very strongly. By contrast, the earlier books don't seem leave as many loose ends hanging around. Increasing the book length won't do any good unless the material is worth it. In any case, I'd sat WoT is a series that has both its fan and people who hate it. I'd say for the people who haven't read it to read it and judge for yourselves. Actually, I'd say that's probably good advice for most books; everyone's taste is different. ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 31 Jan 2002 11:34:35 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 53 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201311134.5f90114f@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.124.219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012505675 5511 127.0.0.1 (31 Jan 2002 19:34:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 19:34:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75310 "Yama" wrote in message news:... > "David Sulger" wrote in message > news:3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com... > > "pawn" wrote in message > news:... > > > I remember hearing that the authors were simply a D and D group and the > > > story was derived from their campaign. > > > > > Not exactly. Dragonlance Chronicles were written as compainion books > > to a series of D&D adventures published at the same time. That > > accounts for some of the weak points in the books. Chronicles are > > Weis and Hickman's weakest DRagonlance book; I've read some of the > > later ones and they're better. But as bad as some around here think > > Dragonlance is bad, believe me when I say most other game-related > > fiction is much worse. > > Dragonlance is IMHO better than it's reputation, as long as you can ignore > most obvious idioticisms that follow when they tried to make it consistent > with a game, and as long as they are written by Hickman&Weis, who actually > can write some, which you generally can't say about other DL bulk writers. > Chronicles&Legends are good and easy read: Dragons of Summer Flame was > readable. Haven't read others yet. Same here. I didn't say Wies and Hickman's Dragonlance books were bad. There not great, and I wouldn't clessify them as literature, but they have some entertainment value. [snip] > > Now, Forgotten Realms(tm) books don't _quite_ get to the same level. I've > read Salvatore's Drow trilogy and I didn't like it at all, with all the > clichee and one-dimensional, often over-written dialogue and uninteresting > characters. And Elaine Cunningham...is not better. 'nuff said. Yes, I've read pretty much the same about both writers and others over on the D&D newsgroup. The prevailing opinion there is that W&H are alright, but most of the other game-related fiction is pretty bad. I've read some of that fiction myself, and I can say that it sucks. Regulars of this group who are not avid role-players probably aren't aware of the situation. From what I understand, TSR started publishing these books after the success of Weis and Hickman's Dragonlance books. Keep in mind that most of these authors didn't create these worlds in the first place. That different from non game-related fiction where in general the world is the creation of the world's author. Also, it's my impression that RPGs and fantasy fiction don't really work together all that well. Fiction doesn't often translate very well into game stats, and D&D worlds have certain assumptions that don't really work very well in fiction. I believe that fundamentally, fictional worlds and worlds in role-playing games have different requirements. ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 31 Jan 2002 11:38:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201311138.7bd12e96@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.124.219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012505889 5603 127.0.0.1 (31 Jan 2002 19:38:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 19:38:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75357 "Yama" wrote in message news:... > > I very much liked Eddings when I picked up first book of Belgariad. Some of > the characters were bit overdone but at least they had distinguishable > personalities, and writing style avoided the pitfalls of being oversolemnic. > Nevertheless I was somewhat relieved when I finished fifth book of > Belgariad. "That was there, then" I thought. > I have to agree. The first two books of the Belgariad aren't too bad. But then the series weakens as it progresses. Of all of Eddings' series, the Elenium is probably the best. ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 31 Jan 2002 11:42:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0201311142.3305d7b8@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.129.124.219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012506135 5724 127.0.0.1 (31 Jan 2002 19:42:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 19:42:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75308 Ingeborg Denner wrote in message news:<3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de>... > Yama wrote: > > > > And all the time they have gone _worse_, characters have become boring and > > one-dimensional, worlds are thinner than the paper they've printed on, all > > villains are totally boring and uninteresting...I got fed up with this by > > book 8 or so, I've read all the rest of them only due sheer masochism: > > somehow I just want to see _how bad_ they can get. > > That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot of > patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and > detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a > common thing to say. > > I wonder: Is this masochism, resignation ("there is nothing better that > I didn't read already"), boredom ("It's bad but watching the flies crawl > up the window pane is worse"), or unquenchable optimism ("It has to get > better some day, it will, I'm sure")? > Maybe it's denial; these people might actually enjoy these books, but wouldn't dare admit it here. :) Also, there are some books that are good the first couple of times you read it, but then aren't as enjoyable after you read it a few times. ###### From: CLV1@balJUNKcab.ch (CleV) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:57:42 GMT Organization: ImproWare AG Network Services - Usenet News Service Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3c59bd6f.2244130@news.balcab.ch> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> <3C593DE9.1C88BD0F@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.catv12.balcab.ch X-Trace: news.imp.ch 1012514327 38680 213.200.12.156 (31 Jan 2002 21:58:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@imp.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:58:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!imp.ch!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74721 On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:51:53 +0100, Ingeborg Denner wrote: >Emilie Karr wrote: >> And that'd be a 2nd cousin - child of your parents' first cousins. The >> 'removed' refer to the difference in generation (your parents' first >> cousins are your first cousins once removed). >Thanks! I've been wondering about that for years... If you come from a chinese family, there are specific words for uncle depending on whether they are your mother's brother, your father's brother, or husbands of your mother's sister or your father's sister. To call your father's cousins your cousins borders on irreverance, since they are a generation above you. ###### From: CLV1@balJUNKcab.ch (CleV) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:59:12 GMT Organization: ImproWare AG Network Services - Usenet News Service Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3c59be0c.2400571@news.balcab.ch> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.catv12.balcab.ch X-Trace: news.imp.ch 1012514418 38680 213.200.12.156 (31 Jan 2002 22:00:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@imp.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:00:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!imp.ch!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74719 On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:16:11 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >Yama wrote: >[snip] >>I very much liked Eddings when I picked up first book of Belgariad. Some of >>the characters were bit overdone but at least they had distinguishable >>personalities, and writing style avoided the pitfalls of being >oversolemnic. >>Nevertheless I was somewhat relieved when I finished fifth book of >>Belgariad. "That was there, then" I thought. >>Too bad Mr (and Mrs) Eddings didn't think same way... >I couldn't agree more, though I seem to lack your patience; I stopped >reading Eddings after "The Tamuli". Tee hee. I managed to stop after the 4th book of the Malloreon. (And I haven't looked back since:-)) ###### From: jernau@hotmail.com (Jernau) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 31 Jan 2002 14:27:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: <61121682.0201311427.484d32b1@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.46.200.230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012516037 10318 127.0.0.1 (31 Jan 2002 22:27:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2002 22:27:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75283 "Yama" wrote in message news:... > "Jernau" wrote in message > news:61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com... > > Well since I've bashed some very popular authors, I'll throw out a few > > that I did enjoy. Iain M. Banks, I know, not fantasy but good stuff > > and big interesting ideas nonetheless. George R.R. Martin's Song of > > Fire and Ice series has also been much very enjoyable. Even Dave > > Eddings was more enjoyable than McKiernen, Williams and Jordan's > > dreck. > > I very much liked Eddings when I picked up first book of Belgariad. Some of > the characters were bit overdone but at least they had distinguishable > personalities, and writing style avoided the pitfalls of being oversolemnic. > Nevertheless I was somewhat relieved when I finished fifth book of > Belgariad. "That was there, then" I thought. I enjoyed the Belgariad when I read it but thought the Mallorean was repetitive. I too though the dialog was a refreshing change from some of the other stuff out there. The Sparhawk and Tamuli books I haven't read and don't intend to. I thought the Polgar and Belgareth books were nice in that you got to revisit the world and see the characters again. Story-wise, they were somewhat weak. I agree with you that things have gotten weaker the more he and his wife writes. But still not as bad as Jordan, Williams and McKiernen. A lot of people have posted on Goodkind. I thought Wizard's First Rule was pretty good but the series has seemingly descended into an endless rehash of dominatrixes and the hero's ability to overcome them. I think I read the first 3 books but haven't been able to get the effort to buy and read more. Raymond E. Feist is another author I read and at first enjoyed but upon rereading I just couldn't make myself finish. The whole throwaway culture of the Tsuranuani got sort of irritating. Again, lots of borrowing from asian culture but I don't think he pulled it off successfully. Somehow when Tolkien borrows from a real world culture to create one in Middle-Earth, it just somehow clicks. The details are better fleshed out and more interesting. I suppose other authors aren't as skilled in world creation. Their worlds are weak, defective shadows (borrowing a term from Zelazny) of the real thing. Jernau ###### From: Tamfiiris Gloruloke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> <3C593DE9.1C88BD0F@gmx.de> <3c59bd6f.2244130@news.balcab.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.236.139 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:43:41 MET X-Trace: news4.ulv.nextra.no 1012549421 130.67.236.139 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:43:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news4.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75460 ZzinkThu, 31 Jan 2002 21:57:42 GMT, CleV-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo: >If you come from a chinese family, there are specific words for uncle >depending on whether they are your mother's brother, your father's >brother, or husbands of your mother's sister or your father's sister. in norwegian we have that too, plus additional all-purpose aunt and uncle terms. i suppose there are different words for paternal grandmother and grandfather as well? in some languages disctinctions are made between the parent's older and younger sibling as well, maybe where that is important. >To call your father's cousins your cousins borders on irreverance, >since they are a generation above you. i suppose - and we don't call them that in Norway. in fact, we don't have any name for them, and it's mighty confuzzling. -- Tamf Far be it from me to argue stubbornly about Scandinavia with someone who has umlauts in their name. (Darren S.A. George) ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:14:28 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.16.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012596231 62.59.16.173 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:43:51 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:43:51 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74824 Ingeborg Denner wrote: >That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot = of >patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and >detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a >common thing to say.=20 It's hard to give up on a book. I still remember the first time I did = that. Greetings, T. ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:16:34 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.16.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012596231 62.59.16.173 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:43:51 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:43:51 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74825 Aris Katsaris wrote: >(And there's also the Tolkien-ripoff about the >Elves going all west through the sea.=20 Actually, I don't think that's Tolkien's. I come upon this "going into = the west" quite a lot in myth-type stuff. Avalon, Tir-na-Nogth... Does = anyone know more about that? Greetings, T. ###### Message-ID: <3C5B0998.31E8E2AA@worldnet.att.net> From: "Dennis L. McKiernan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:32:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.83.100.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1012599160 12.83.100.41 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:32:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:32:40 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!newsengine.sol.net!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74905 The Cherokee Indians also have the "going into the west" theme concerning death and a journey to the higher realm. IIRC, it's because that's where the sun sets to bring on the night. ---Dennis Taemon wrote: > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > >(And there's also the Tolkien-ripoff about the > >Elves going all west through the sea. > > Actually, I don't think that's Tolkien's. I come upon this "going into the west" quite a lot in myth-type stuff. Avalon, Tir-na-Nogth... Does anyone know more about that? > > Greetings, T. ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:13:09 +0000 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3C5B12F5.E8CF274B@hotmail.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <61121682.0201311427.484d32b1@posting.google.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-607.barrelled.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1012601455 2584 62.25.142.95 (1 Feb 2002 22:10:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 2002 22:10:55 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74585 Jernau wrote: > [snip] > > Raymond E. Feist is another author I read and at first enjoyed but > upon rereading I just couldn't make myself finish. The whole > throwaway culture of the Tsuranuani got sort of irritating. Again, > lots of borrowing from asian culture but I don't think he pulled it > off successfully. Somehow when Tolkien borrows from a real world > culture to create one in Middle-Earth, it just somehow clicks. The > details are better fleshed out and more interesting. I suppose other > authors aren't as skilled in world creation. Their worlds are weak, > defective shadows (borrowing a term from Zelazny) of the real thing. > One thing (more) that grated a bit with Feist was the use of Tolkiens languages (changed just a little - occasionally). Such as "eldar = star-folk", the dark elves being called "moredhel", the mad elves "glamredhel" (very close to "din-elves, or elves of tumult - c.f. the elven name "Glamhoth" (din-folk) for orcs in Unfinished Tales), King Earanorn, a.k.a. Redtree (if the E at the start were a C, it would be a perfect match). The Valheru (lords of power) ... I imagine that David Salo would have a really hard time suspending disbelief long enough to get into Feists creation. :-) It's a pity, because I really enjoyed (apart from the Elven cribbing and the sentence fragment chapter starts) the Riftwar series. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:52:50 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> <3ac4908.0201311134.5f90114f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1012611052 12955 130.231.6.54 (2 Feb 2002 00:50:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 00:50:52 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74774 "David Sulger" wrote in message news:3ac4908.0201311134.5f90114f@posting.google.com... > "Yama" wrote in message > > Now, Forgotten Realms(tm) books don't _quite_ get to the same level. I've > > read Salvatore's Drow trilogy and I didn't like it at all, with all the > > clichee and one-dimensional, often over-written dialogue and uninteresting > > characters. And Elaine Cunningham...is not better. 'nuff said. > Regulars of this group who are not avid role-players probably aren't > aware of the situation. From what I understand, TSR started > publishing these books after the success of Weis and Hickman's > Dragonlance books. Keep in mind that most of these authors didn't > create these worlds in the first place. Yes, IMHO Krynn is half-way between fiction world and RPG world; while Forgotten Realms is almost 100% RPG world; which is one reason why Krynn books are more interesting than FR books. Though, I am not very familiar with FR, maybe I've missed some aspects of it. > Also, it's my impression that RPGs and fantasy fiction don't really > work together all that well. Fiction doesn't often translate very > well into game stats, and D&D worlds have certain assumptions that > don't really work very well in fiction. I believe that fundamentally, > fictional worlds and worlds in role-playing games have different > requirements. I have somewhat noticed the same thing, so I guess we could cut _some_ slack to those poor FR authors. Clearly, the RPG backround shows _very_ clearly in FR novels. And conversely, Middle-Earth sure is one of the (if not THE) best fantasy worlds around, but I am not all that sure it actually is a good RPG world. Main problem is that it's history is "closed" (all main events and conflicts have been documented and resolved) and where it becomes "open" (at the beginning of Fourth Age) it has lost many of it's interesting elements. It's difficult to design a major campaign, especially if players know LotR and Silmarillion inside out. ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 03:07:42 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1012611943 13425 130.231.6.54 (2 Feb 2002 01:05:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 01:05:43 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74712 "Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message news:3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de... > Yama wrote: > > And all the time they have gone _worse_, characters have become boring and > > one-dimensional, worlds are thinner than the paper they've printed on, all > > villains are totally boring and uninteresting...I got fed up with this by > > book 8 or so, I've read all the rest of them only due sheer masochism: > > somehow I just want to see _how bad_ they can get. > > That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot of > patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and > detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a > common thing to say. > > I wonder: Is this masochism, resignation ("there is nothing better that > I didn't read already"), boredom ("It's bad but watching the flies crawl > up the window pane is worse"), or unquenchable optimism ("It has to get > better some day, it will, I'm sure")? It's pretty much same what others have said: first, once I have began a book, I want to see how it finishes, unless it is _really_ tedious to read. Also it IS a bit of masochism "Sheez, this is getting really bad, I _must_ see how bad it actually gets". And there's optimism "OK that was pretty lousy but maybe things will improve in next volume". Finally, even in the lousiest books/series there usually are _some_ moderately interesting plotlines/characters and you want to see what happens to them in the end. (There is one author I've been fed up however: Tom Clancy. His early books were great, but his quality has steadily dropped. _Debt of Honour_ was SO bad I couldn't finish it, I just browsed last 100 pages to see if things improved (they didn't) and I haven't touched Clancy's newer books ever since.) It's same with comics and TV-series. Recently, I have found ElfQuest as best example of this. Stories are getting crappy, art even more so (Wendy Pini doesn't draw much anymore), number of characters and storylines are getting out of hand - still there are _some_ interesting characters left and you are waiting next volume - "now where is that b*tch Kahvi" or "oh, Jink is so HOT, I want to see more of her, never mind lousy storyline"... ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 03:22:14 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3ac4908.0201311138.7bd12e96@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1012612815 13768 130.231.6.54 (2 Feb 2002 01:20:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 01:20:15 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news01.chello.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74776 "David Sulger" wrote in message news:3ac4908.0201311138.7bd12e96@posting.google.com... > "Yama" wrote in message news:... > > I very much liked Eddings when I picked up first book of Belgariad. Some of > > the characters were bit overdone but at least they had distinguishable > > personalities, and writing style avoided the pitfalls of being oversolemnic. > > Nevertheless I was somewhat relieved when I finished fifth book of > > Belgariad. "That was there, then" I thought. > > > I have to agree. The first two books of the Belgariad aren't too bad. > But then the series weakens as it progresses. Of all of Eddings' > series, the Elenium is probably the best. Elenium? You gotta be kidding... On related note, has anyone noticed how crappy Eddings^2 are when it comes to inventing names? It didn't show that much in "Belgariad", where names appear to have some internal consistency, but in later works - especially in "Althalus" it's painfully obvious that they were really struggling with naming. That the worlds are thinner that paper they've printed on doesn't help. I've met problem myself when developing RPG worlds/characters. Clearly Tolkien was on to something with his invented languages. I strongly recommend that anyone who tries to create fantasy world developes at least _some_ crude outlines for languages. It really shows in long term... Of course there's the Howard solution; he just took names from geography, history and mythology ("Iranistan", anyone?). It came with an added bonus that names had a touch of "depth", without needing to develope lengthy mythology himself. ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <010220021949102700%dsalo@usa.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> <3ac4908.0201311134.5f90114f@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 01:48:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1012614511 208.170.95.104 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:48:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:48:31 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74609 In article , "Yama" wrote: > And conversely, Middle-Earth sure is one of the (if not THE) best fantasy > worlds around, but I am not all that sure it actually is a good RPG world. > Main problem is that it's history is "closed" (all main events and conflicts > have been documented and resolved) and where it becomes "open" (at the > beginning of Fourth Age) it has lost many of it's interesting elements. It's > difficult to design a major campaign, especially if players know LotR and > Silmarillion inside out. You could always do the Dwarvish re-taking of Moria -- I think that ought to take about ten years of game time. DS ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <010220021959149028%dsalo@usa.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 39 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 01:58:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1012615116 208.170.95.104 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:58:36 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:58:36 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!15642!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74628 In article , "Taemon" wrote: > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > >(And there's also the Tolkien-ripoff about the > >Elves going all west through the sea. > > Actually, I don't think that's Tolkien's. I come upon this "going into the > west" quite a lot in myth-type stuff. Avalon, Tir-na-Nogth... Does anyone > know more about that? A little -- it comes down to a symbolism that goes way back to ancient Egypt, if not before. Start with the idea that in opposition to the world of the living, there is a world of the dead -- the otherworld or underworld, seen as being (at least metaphorically) somewhere beneath the ground (an idea which may be related to inhumation). Add to that the observation that the sun crosses the sky each day from east to west, and when it has reached the far end of the sky *descends* below the horizon -- presumably going into the underworld. It follows, then, that in the west there is a land which stands at the threshold of our world and the underworld, and that the spirits of the dead go west on their journey to that underworld. This was the journey that the souls of the pharaohs took, on their way to jmntt (*Yamintit > Amnte), which is reasonably translated as "Westernesse". What's different about Tolkien's mythology is that the West is the destination of the immortal elves, not (as one might expect) of mortals. There is still a connection -- the spirits of the dead -- having already died -- are presumably immortal, and the motif of the underworld is easily blended with the motif of the Land of Bliss. But the elves are not, in Tolkien's world, the spirits of the dead! If people are writing about Elves going to the west and leaving this world, they are probably getting their information from Tolkien -- based on world mythologies, it should rightly be the other way around. David Salo ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <010220022001598984%dsalo@usa.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <61121682.0201311427.484d32b1@posting.google.com> <3C5B12F5.E8CF274B@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 02:01:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1012615281 208.170.95.104 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:01:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:01:21 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!12744!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74625 In article <3C5B12F5.E8CF274B@hotmail.com>, Andy Cooke wrote: > One thing (more) that grated a bit with Feist was the use of > Tolkiens languages (changed just a little - occasionally). Such > as "eldar = star-folk", the dark elves being called "moredhel", > the mad elves "glamredhel" (very close to "din-elves, or elves of > tumult - c.f. the elven name "Glamhoth" (din-folk) for orcs in > Unfinished Tales), King Earanorn, a.k.a. Redtree (if the E at the > start were a C, it would be a perfect match). The Valheru (lords > of power) ... > I imagine that David Salo would have a really hard time > suspending disbelief long enough to get into Feists creation. > :-) That's not very far off -- I did experience a kind of cognitive dissonance when I hit the name "Aglaranna". But I've read books with worse nomenclature, and I just found the first book insufficiently interesting to get all the way through it -- I may try again some other time. DS ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 04:09:20 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> <3ac4908.0201311134.5f90114f@posting.google.com> <010220021949102700%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1012615642 15288 130.231.6.54 (2 Feb 2002 02:07:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 02:07:22 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74840 "David Salo" wrote in message news:010220021949102700%dsalo@usa.net... > In article , "Yama" > wrote: > > And conversely, Middle-Earth sure is one of the (if not THE) best fantasy > > worlds around, but I am not all that sure it actually is a good RPG world. > > Main problem is that it's history is "closed" (all main events and conflicts > > have been documented and resolved) and where it becomes "open" (at the > > beginning of Fourth Age) it has lost many of it's interesting elements. It's > > difficult to design a major campaign, especially if players know LotR and > > Silmarillion inside out. > > You could always do the Dwarvish re-taking of Moria -- I think that > ought to take about ten years of game time. But how interesting it would be..? "OK, now you have killed all 14 Orcs that inhabit Chamber 7, Depth 4. Next, Thorin III tells you to move to Chamber 8..." ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <010220022046380114%dsalo@usa.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> <3ac4908.0201311134.5f90114f@posting.google.com> <010220021949102700%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 26 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 02:46:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1012617960 208.170.95.104 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:46:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:46:00 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74607 In article , "Yama" wrote: > > You could always do the Dwarvish re-taking of Moria -- I think that > > ought to take about ten years of game time. > > But how interesting it would be..? > "OK, now you have killed all 14 Orcs that inhabit Chamber 7, Depth 4. Next, > Thorin III tells you to move to Chamber 8..." But that's only the Fourth Deep! What about the Sixty-Fourth Deep? "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not..." "I take my bow and shoot the... the... uh, what did you call it?" "While you were trying to figure out what to call the nameless thing, it ate you." "So what was it?" "I can't tell you, but I'm pretty sure it was eldritch, squamous, and batrachian." DS ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 02:48:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012618139 24.190.150.253 (Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:48:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:48:59 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!telocity-west!DirecTV-DSL!gestalt.direcpc.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75695 In article , "Taemon" wrote: > Ingeborg Denner wrote: > > >That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot of > >patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and > >detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a > >common thing to say. > > It's hard to give up on a book. I still remember the first time I did that. Indeed. That explains why I'm still struggling through Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series at Book Nine.... -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: urban@panix.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 1 Feb 2002 22:59:28 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5B0998.31E8E2AA@worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1012622368 21069 166.84.1.3 (2 Feb 2002 03:59:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 03:59:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74786 In article <3C5B0998.31E8E2AA@worldnet.att.net>, Dennis L. McKiernan wrote: >The Cherokee Indians also have the "going into the west" theme >concerning death and a journey to the higher realm. > IIRC, it's because that's where the sun sets to bring on the night. > ---Dennis > My, I must say you've been a good sport to sit so quietly through much of this thread! ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:11:34 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3c5b69e4.5147043@news.saix.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <2zY48.37469$qa2.3000532184@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> <77u85uc0eh3nioeie94e3ki7mdrfc5j3m4@4ax.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-03-p97.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1012626877 4104 155.239.196.97 (2 Feb 2002 05:14:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 05:14:37 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74684 On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:35:16 +0800, Iain Parkinson wrote: >Not forgetting Donaldson's ridiculously laboured vocabulary - 'argute with >analystic refulgence' for example. I forget which execrable tome contains >that gem but the whole series was full of astonishing pseudo-erudition. yes, that's why I was a bit sceptical about those assertions that his books were well written. He illustrated the danger of using words when one is not sure of the meaning, though i would have expected the editor to have picked them up before the book was published. Also, Covenant's limited repertoire of responses got a bit boring - "clenging himself" and chewing ground glass might be vivid images the first time they are used, but after the 50th repetition simply become dull. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### Message-ID: <3C5C01DE.407AC159@worldnet.att.net> From: "Dennis L. McKiernan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C5B0998.31E8E2AA@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:11:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.83.101.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1012662711 12.83.101.50 (Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:11:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:11:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!209.122.83.58!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74901 Michael: I recognize the difference between _story_ and _trappings_. ---Dennis Michael Urban wrote: > > In article <3C5B0998.31E8E2AA@worldnet.att.net>, > Dennis L. McKiernan wrote: > >The Cherokee Indians also have the "going into the west" theme > >concerning death and a journey to the higher realm. > > IIRC, it's because that's where the sun sets to bring on the night. > > ---Dennis > > > > My, I must say you've been a good sport to sit so quietly through > much of this thread! ###### From: Leiv Hodne Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:50:45 +0100 Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Lines: 65 Message-ID: <3C5C0AD5.59E725CC@ifi.uio.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: naglbitur.ifi.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1012665046 23708 129.240.64.198 (2 Feb 2002 15:50:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 15:50:46 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!transit.news.cuci.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74502 Aris Katsaris wrote: > "Leiv Hodne" wrote in message > news:3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no... > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > Rakoth Maugrim being like Morgoth Bauglir? With his fortress on the North? > > > Unraveling the Tapestry/Music of the Ainur? Would never have thought about > > > it. > > > > Did you miss my post where I said the first volume in particular was *very* > > derivative? > > I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm adding to it. Ok, maybe I over-reacted a bit. :-) > > > Anyway, it's mainly the setting and background that I felt to be derivative, > not the "plotline" (which would limit this to the first volume - if the > background > was revealed in the second volume, you'd find that one to be the derivative > one probably). True. > > > *spoilers for the 2nd volume* > > > > And of course as a sidenote there's what I consider the ultra-major > plothole of dividing up the 5 stones that kept Rakoth imprisoned, when > *any* one of them can set him free. Eh???? If all five were required of > course they ought to be separated, but separating them when one is > enough by itself only increases fivefold his chances for release! Well, I don't think they could *release* him - I believe they were only intended to give warning if he tried to break free. There may be a bit of a design flaw here somewhere, but I think the implication was that breaking one of the wardstones allowed Rakoth to free himself and rebuild his armies etc. without alerting the keepers of the other wardstones. -- mvh Leiv Hodne "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ###### From: cyoung85@hotmail.com (Cathy Young) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 2 Feb 2002 09:08:57 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 27 Message-ID: <43193229.0202020908.79d205cb@posting.google.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.127.43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012669738 2998 127.0.0.1 (2 Feb 2002 17:08:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 17:08:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75323 Adrian Ratnapala wrote in message news:... > In article , Ronald O > Christian wrote: > > > *Some* of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. I was fortunate to have > > read Wyrd Sisters first; going back to the beginning of the series, I > > found that Pratchett didn't really hit his stride until Mort. I get the impression that for a while he viewed discworld > as as a vehicle for taking the piss out of fantasy but kept writing disc > novels even after he was bored of this target. Indeed - Discworld began as a parody of general fantasy, but not of Tolkien - it was parodying all the awful post-Tolkien fantasy that appeared. Pratchett then moved onto much darker, thought-provoking material (see esp. Small Gods and The Fifth Elephant) > > It was only after the arrival of Carrot in Ankh Morpork that he really > worked out how he wanted to use the disc to talk about the real world. > Which is why Feet of Clay and The Truth are so strong but completely > different from the early stories. > Umm... Feet of Clay was eleven books after Carrot's arrival in Ankh-Morpork, The Truth was seventeen books after Guards! Guards!. And it's not only the City Watch books which take a look at the real world. ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> <010220021959149028%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:25:36 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.8.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1012685265 62.59.8.182 (Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:27:45 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:27:45 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74912 David Salo wrote: > What's different about Tolkien's mythology is that the West is the >destination of the immortal elves, not (as one might expect) of >mortals. There is still a connection -- the spirits of the dead -- >having already died -- are presumably immortal, and the motif of the >underworld is easily blended with the motif of the Land of Bliss. But >the elves are not, in Tolkien's world, the spirits of the dead! Hmm... This is interesting. I'm not sure that in all pre-Tolkien myths = "going to the west" meant dying but I don't know much about it. I might = take a further look in it. Thanks for your reply. Greetings, T. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 2 Feb 2002 22:54:38 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <43193229.0202020908.79d205cb@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012690478 20259 172.20.76.33 (2 Feb 2002 22:54:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 22:54:38 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75059 In article <43193229.0202020908.79d205cb@posting.google.com>, Cathy Young wrote: > Indeed - Discworld began as a parody of general fantasy, but not of > Tolkien - it was parodying all the awful post-Tolkien fantasy that Tolkein as much as anyone else, pre or post. > appeared. Pratchett then moved onto much darker, thought-provoking > material (see esp. Small Gods and The Fifth Elephant) Never thought of those as darker. But you are right, by Small Gods he was getting into his stride again. > Umm... Feet of Clay was eleven books after Carrot's arrival in > Ankh-Morpork, The Truth was seventeen books after Guards! Guards!. > And it's not only the City Watch books which take a look at the real > world. I am only using thse two as exaples. Now looking through an actual list of the books I will say: Guards! Guards! - Cool but somehow part of his lostness. I.e it is as dark as the early books, without their colour. Later Watch books lost that darkness, and were more in their stride. Eric - Good. Moving Pictuers, Reaper Man, Witches Abroad - Somehow lost, he had some good ideas and executed them well, but somehow these don't feel comfortable. Small Gods onwards - He's back again. So OK, his lostness does seem to have continued a past Guards! Guards! The reason I use Carrot as my turning point is that I beleive that ankh-morpork and the Watch have become the centre of the discworld now as they afford the convenient outlet for whatever Pratchett want's to say about the real world. In story *internal* terms, this all happened because of Carrot. ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 23:27:48 +0000 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C5C75F4.910CCA8E@hotmail.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56BD39.7344BC70@ifi.uio.no> <3C593679.B4B8DFF8@ifi.uio.no> <010220021959149028%dsalo@usa.net> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-939.awesome.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 1012692333 16717 62.25.131.171 (2 Feb 2002 23:25:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:25:33 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74589 Taemon wrote: > > David Salo wrote: > > > What's different about Tolkien's mythology is that the West is the > >destination of the immortal elves, not (as one might expect) of > >mortals. There is still a connection -- the spirits of the dead -- > >having already died -- are presumably immortal, and the motif of the > >underworld is easily blended with the motif of the Land of Bliss. But > >the elves are not, in Tolkien's world, the spirits of the dead! > > Hmm... This is interesting. I'm not sure that in all pre-Tolkien myths "going to the west" meant dying but I don't know much about it. I might take a further look in it. Thanks for your reply. > It might not help much, but ... When I was a young lad, reading "Biggles" books, W.E.Johns included the slang of the time (with a useful crib sheet in the front of the book). Apparently, in the aerodromes of the Royal Flying Corps in WWI, the slang term for dying was "Going West" (i.e. 'I haven't seen Smith recently'. 'Oh, haven't you heard? He went West three days ago' 'Poor bugger') For what it's worth. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:39:21 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de> <3c56d193.2051908@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012693161 22605 172.20.76.33 (2 Feb 2002 23:39:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:39:21 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75019 In article <3c56d193.2051908@news.newsguy.com>, Chris Kern wrote: > He is my favorite non-Tolkien fantasy writer. I enjoy all the stuff > he's written, although he tends to be long-winded sometimes > (especially in Otherland -- that should have been one book shorter.) This is a general problem with modern SF/Fantasy, blame the publishers. Otherland does have some excuse. Otherland is a little like The Magic Faraway Tree (which is one of my favorite fantasy series), plenty of things to see and enjoy that don't really have anything to do with the main plot line. It would have been a shame if Williams had created all these wonderful places and then glossed over them in order to get on with it. Anyone else like the Magic Faraway Tree books (Enid Blyton)? ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:41:30 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3C554A3B.288A6B5D@gmx.de> <3C569DC5.80D54292@ifi.uio.no> <3C56A08E.BA99A6FE@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012693290 22605 172.20.76.33 (2 Feb 2002 23:41:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:41:30 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!180315!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75047 In article , Light wrote: > the three first Otherland-books and liked his style. The Otherland-series is > much better though, it has originality (both in setting and main characters) This reflects nothing more than the fact that SF has a lot more scope for brilliance than fantasy. I mean it too. Any fantasy that gets too imaginative starts to border on the SF. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:46:09 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3ac4908.0201290742.74015b27@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012693569 22605 172.20.76.33 (2 Feb 2002 23:46:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:46:09 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75031 In article , Yama wrote: > Dragonlance is IMHO better than it's reputation, as long as you can ignore > most obvious idioticisms that follow when they tried to make it consistent > with a game, and as long as they are written by Hickman&Weis, who actually Mostly true but the last book (can't remember the name, something about Chaos) was just awfull. The only excuse is that it was written put a final (fictinal time) nail in the Krynn coffin. They also screwed up Darksword by writing a fourth book, after the story was well and truly finished in the third. > readable. Haven't read others yet. Other H&W series - Deathgate - was quite > ok, attempt to create something bit different (albeit with heavy AD&D > influence), except last 1-2 volumes were bit of an anticlimax. Righto. Very imaginative that world. I don't really blame the last volumes for being and anticlimax either. What else could you expect? ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:57:25 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3c581e71.7949975@news.newsguy.com> <3C584BC5.3D082E74@law.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012694245 22605 172.20.76.33 (2 Feb 2002 23:57:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:57:25 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!186808!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75023 In article <3C584BC5.3D082E74@law.harvard.edu>, Emilie Karr wrote: >> cultures are based on real cultures. (In a way, this makes the Sithi >> acceptable to me, because *all* of the races/cultures are based on >> other cultures, not just the Sithi borrowed from Elves.) >> > I'm halfway thru Stone of Farewell and actually the Sithi seemed less a > Tolkien element to me than much of the rest (the split scenes between Firstly, the Sithi being borrowed from Elves doesn't mean the have to be a Tolkein element. I mean JRRT also borrowed the elves. Having said this, the Sithi do turn out to be a lot more Tokleinish than necessary. They have a very similar ancient history to the Noldor. Aand as the books go on I keep "feeling" (rather than "seeing") similarities to the Eldar. > more than hobbits, but why do they have to be halfling-sized? And > there's been a mention of cave-dwellers called 'dwarrows', a deliberate > homage?) The Sithi with their dark cousins and aversion to iron seem No. These dudes are completly different from anything I have read of elsewhere. > And I somewhat enjoy the pseudo-Christianity; its makes for a more > distinctly medieval atmosphere, almost alt-universe. Yes. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:58:43 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012694323 22605 172.20.76.33 (2 Feb 2002 23:58:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2002 23:58:43 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!186808!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75055 In article <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de>, Ingeborg Denner wrote: > I wonder: Is this masochism, resignation ("there is nothing better that > I didn't read already"), boredom ("It's bad but watching the flies crawl > up the window pane is worse"), or unquenchable optimism ("It has to get > better some day, it will, I'm sure")? Nope we are just fans of the literary equivalent of C.M.O.T Dibbler's Sausages. ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 3 Feb 2002 00:07:29 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <61121682.0201311427.484d32b1@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012694849 22605 172.20.76.33 (3 Feb 2002 00:07:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 2002 00:07:29 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!168284!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74991 In article <61121682.0201311427.484d32b1@posting.google.com>, Jernau wrote: > Raymond E. Feist is another author I read and at first enjoyed but > upon rereading I just couldn't make myself finish. The whole Feist varies a lot in quality. But I can read "Magician" again and again. I like it better than LotR. (Although I LotR keeps getting better when I reread it and it might catch up). > throwaway culture of the Tsuranuani got sort of irritating. Again, > lots of borrowing from asian culture but I don't think he pulled it > off successfully. Somehow when Tolkien borrows from a real world A very strange borrowing too. Tsuranuani is partly Japanese and partly South American. An interesting mix. I think in Magician he did pull of the borrow pretty well. This is because the real world cultural element only served to put flesh on his creative bones. It is in the Shething Of the Empire series where we get into real cultural details and the whole thing falls down. > details are better fleshed out and more interesting. I suppose other > authors aren't as skilled in world creation. Their worlds are weak, At least not as insanely obsessed as JRRT. He only created one world, and it took him decades. No wonder he did it well. ###### From: celaeno@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Blueberry Pie Inc. Message-ID: <3c5c17f9.10325248@news.world-online.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> <3C593DE9.1C88BD0F@gmx.de> <3c59bd6f.2244130@news.balcab.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 15 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:10:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.142.84.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@world-online.no X-Trace: news.world-online.no 1012695006 213.142.84.129 (Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:10:06 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:10:06 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news100.world-online.no!news100.world-online.no!news.world-online.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75179 You will not evade me, Tamfiiris Gloruloke : >ZzinkThu, 31 Jan 2002 21:57:42 GMT, CleV-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo: >>To call your father's cousins your cousins borders on irreverance, >>since they are a generation above you. > >i suppose - and we don't call them that in Norway. in fact, we don't have any >name for them, and it's mighty confuzzling. The closest term after all the cousin/aunt/uncle stuff is 'tremenning' and I am not really sure how distant a cousin a tremenning is :) Cel ###### From: Adrian Ratnapala Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: 3 Feb 2002 00:13:44 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> <3C593DE9.1C88BD0F@gmx.de> <3c59bd6f.2244130@news.balcab.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012695224 22605 172.20.76.33 (3 Feb 2002 00:13:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 2002 00:13:44 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!133917!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75058 In article <3c59bd6f.2244130@news.balcab.ch>, CleV wrote: >>Thanks! I've been wondering about that for years... > > If you come from a chinese family, there are specific words for uncle > depending on whether they are your mother's brother, your father's > brother, or husbands of your mother's sister or your father's sister. > To call your father's cousins your cousins borders on irreverance, > since they are a generation above you. Same in Sinhala. I beleive the beleive the Tamils also make similar distinctions to us. We have different words for young and elder brother (and sisters). The word for uncle and aunt will depend on the seniority and sex of your own parent. On the other hand there is no difference between the words for siblings and cousins. Either your own, or you parents. Getting seniory wrong is disrespectful, and to have a seprate word for cousin would be cold and distant. And the only exscuse for calling you parent's cousin a cousin is if they are similar in age to you. ###### From: Tamfiiris Gloruloke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <03up5u0p4svu41rcrmgu85fpigq7nt4tf2@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <29_48.465214$oj3.87835727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> <3C5845ED.68520B18@law.harvard.edu> <3C593DE9.1C88BD0F@gmx.de> <3c59bd6f.2244130@news.balcab.ch> <3c5c17f9.10325248@news.world-online.no> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.234.159 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:02:58 MET X-Trace: news4.ulv.nextra.no 1012726978 130.67.234.159 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:02:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news000.worldonline.se!newsfeed01.nntp.se.dataphone.net!nntp.se.dataphone.net!news.powertech.no!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news4.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75610 ZzinkSun, 03 Feb 2002 00:10:06 GMT, Celaeno-ekki-ptang-baa-moooo: >>i suppose - and we don't call them that in Norway. in fact, we don't have any >>name for them, and it's mighty confuzzling. > >The closest term after all the cousin/aunt/uncle stuff is 'tremenning' >and I am not really sure how distant a cousin a tremenning is :) a tremenning is a second cousin. he/she/it should be of the same generation as you, though. all that removed struff doesn't seem to exist in norwegian. maybe because if a family relationship was becoming bothersome, we took up an axe and removed it? -- Tamf [The hordes of Rohan ride through treacherous fens, over hills, clearing mighty rivers, descending into valleys and dark canyons, and climbing steep ice-blasted mountains, until King HeyHoDen finally breaks down and purchases a map from a nearby gas station.] (The Tolkien E-text) ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <43193229.0202020908.79d205cb@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.30.178 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1012739079 212.151.30.178 (Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:24:39 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:24:39 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-30-178.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:26:56 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75203 Cathy Young wrote: >Adrian Ratnapala wrote in message news:... [snip] >> It was only after the arrival of Carrot in Ankh Morpork that he really >> worked out how he wanted to use the disc to talk about the real world. >> Which is why Feet of Clay and The Truth are so strong but completely >> different from the early stories. > >> >Umm... Feet of Clay was eleven books after Carrot's arrival in >Ankh-Morpork, The Truth was seventeen books after Guards! Guards!. >And it's not only the City Watch books which take a look at the real >world. I like "Small Gods" a lot, but generallt, I do not think Pratchett's books have improved with all the rpeachifying e has started to introduce. And they are too long nowadays. Sometime she spins the story one or two spins too many; that is true of "Hogfather", for example. Öjevind Öjevind ###### From: Christina Waldeck Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 17:49:03 +0100 Organization: TU Braunschweig, Germany Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3C5D69FF.13C0@tu-bs.de> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <43193229.0202020908.79d205cb@posting.google.com> Reply-To: c.waldeck@tu-bs.de NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp296.ts.rz.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.tu-bs.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76237 Öjevind Lång wrote: > > Cathy Young wrote: (snip) > > Feet of Clay was eleven books after Carrot's arrival in > >Ankh-Morpork, The Truth was seventeen books after Guards! Guards!. > >And it's not only the City Watch books which take a look at the real > >world. > > I like "Small Gods" a lot, but generallt, I do not think Pratchett's books > have improved with all the rpeachifying e has started to introduce. And they > are too long nowadays. Sometime she spins the story one or two spins too SHE? Um... I guess you made a typo, yes? the "s" was meant to go to the end of "sometime(s)", and not to cling to the start of "(s)he". Well. Anyway. how can a book be "too long"? It may be too drawn out... but take e.g. 'Carpe Jugulum', it was IMO the right length, it even crammed a bit, because there was so much going on there but it was all interrelated. A book might appear too long if the plot isn't really going anywhere for some time, e.g. 'The Truth' (which i didn't like as much as others, but then, not every book can be expected to work 100% for everyone). > many; that is true of "Hogfather", for example. Odd, I liked Hogfather and its interweaving of storylines quite a lot. Tastes differ. Christina ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: 3 Feb 2002 21:12:52 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.69.133 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012799573 14939 127.0.0.1 (4 Feb 2002 05:12:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2002 05:12:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76208 David Salo wrote in message news:<270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were > flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? > > The Weird-Stone of Brisingamen. Theft right down the line. But after that I strictly avoided anything that might even remotely be fantasy theft by sticking to fantasies that preceded Tolkien, like De la Mare's The Three Mulla-Mulgars. Terrific. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### Message-ID: From: Woof B Sender: WoofB@spamtrap.ntlworld.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> Lines: 30 Organization: are you joking? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.00-U (<2KnjRHLeW4CoEbI8Ym1MLYWYnw>) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:37:53 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.107.241.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news11-gui.server.ntli.net 1012812532 213.107.241.93 (Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:48:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:48:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!lon1-news.nildram.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!ntlworld.com!woofb Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76046 In message , A Tsar Is Born writes >David Salo wrote in message >news:<270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net>... > >> What's the *worst* post-Tolkien wannabe fantasy that you were >> flim-flammed into reading? How bad was it? >> >> > >The Weird-Stone of Brisingamen. Naah. Certainly not plagiarism, even if it is Garner's first and weakest book. I haven't read it since I was a kid, but the thought never occurred to me then. The style and viewpoint are totally different, and it may well be a case of similarities in Northern and British myths, I suppose. The sequel, _The Moon of Gomrath_, is far better, and the books which made Garner's reputation as a fantasist for children and teenagers (_Elidor_, _Red Shift_, _The Owl Service_) are very different. I'd think the *worst* rip-offs are not by a good author still finding his feet but by writers bad enough to offer nothing else to distract from 'oh dear, here come the orcs'. Offhand, the worst one I read was part of a trilogy by (I think) Dennis McKiernan, who couldn't write, and appeared to be ticking off all the elements of LOTR on a list as he tried. -- Regards, Woof ###### From: Morithron Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <61121682.0201291523.79562383@posting.google.com> <3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:04:03 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.1.140.151 X-Trace: NewsReader 1012831439 213.1.140.151 (Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:03:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:03:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet!NewsPeer!Fusion!NewsReader.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76180 On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:18:05 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >"Ingeborg Denner" wrote in message >news:3C593FA0.C05861B8@gmx.de... >> >> That's a thing I notice in this thread: Most of us seem to have a lot of >> patience when it comes to bad books. "They're horrible and boring and >> detoriate with every volume -- I just read volume seven" seems to be a >> common thing to say. > >I read all the Dune volumes, which IMO also steadily progressed from good >to bad to worse... No, no, no - "God Emperor" is the nadir of the series. Nothing Frank Herbert wrote could match that for tedium. The Dune series went from good to bad to diabolical to not-quite-as-bad-but-really-rather-poor. M ###### From: celaeno@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Blueberry Pie Inc. Message-ID: <3c5eba1f.8612412@news.world-online.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <43193229.0202020908.79d205cb@posting.google.com> <3C5D69FF.13C0@tu-bs.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 23:53:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.142.78.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@world-online.no X-Trace: news.world-online.no 1012866831 213.142.78.158 (Tue, 05 Feb 2002 00:53:51 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 00:53:51 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!206376!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news100.world-online.no!news100.world-online.no!news.world-online.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76131 You will not evade me, Christina Waldeck : >Öjevind Lång wrote: >> many; that is true of "Hogfather", for example. > >Odd, I liked Hogfather and its interweaving of storylines quite a lot. >Tastes differ. "I saw your piggie do a wee!" "OH. ER. GOOD." "It had a gwate big-" "WHAT DO YOU WANT FOR HOGSWATCH?" "I wanta narmy. Anna big castle with pointy bits. And a swored." "WHAT DO YOU SAY?" "A /big/ swored?" "THAT'S RIGHT." Cel ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1012916885 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 05 Feb 2002 07:48:05 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 07:48:05 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: poR78-20217-r4-6444@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 5066819a f446c9d4 67a82efb eeca7a12 a786a150 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:48:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!19435!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76041 Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article : > wrote: > > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern > > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > That's not possible. Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. On the other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid a flat fee for each new book. (He certainly doesn't get a flat fee for each new plot or character!) Steuard Jensen ###### From: celaeno@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: Blueberry Pie Inc. Message-ID: <3c600671.6655318@news.world-online.no> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <6bfb27a8.0201282025.3d86869a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:08:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.142.75.71 X-Complaints-To: abuse@world-online.no X-Trace: news.world-online.no 1012954127 213.142.75.71 (Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:08:47 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:08:47 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news100.world-online.no!news100.world-online.no!news.world-online.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76444 You will not evade me, bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink): >Most people don't really go for book four, Tehanu. I just read the >fifth book, Tales from Earthse, though, and really enjoyed it. This >one is a collection of stories from different times in Earthsea, from >the founding of the school on Roke, one while Ged was Archmage, >and one that is about the same time as Tehanu (after The Farthest >Shore). There's also an essay about the history of Earthsea, the >nature of magic, of names, etc. So it sounds like you'd really enjoy >this one. When did this 5th book come out? (I have the first 4 in one volume) Cel ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Message-ID: <050220022056218160%dsalo@usa.net> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <6bfb27a8.0201282025.3d86869a@posting.google.com> <3c600671.6655318@news.world-online.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 02:55:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1012964136 208.170.95.219 (Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:55:36 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:55:36 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76404 In article <3c600671.6655318@news.world-online.no>, celaeno@shavenwookie.nospam.com (Celaeno) wrote: > You will not evade me, bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink): > > >Most people don't really go for book four, Tehanu. I just read the > >fifth book, Tales from Earthse, though, and really enjoyed it. This > >one is a collection of stories from different times in Earthsea, from > >the founding of the school on Roke, one while Ged was Archmage, > >and one that is about the same time as Tehanu (after The Farthest > >Shore). There's also an essay about the history of Earthsea, the > >nature of magic, of names, etc. So it sounds like you'd really enjoy > >this one. > > When did this 5th book come out? > > (I have the first 4 in one volume) Just last year, IIRC, and it was followed after some months by yet *another* book, "The Other Wind". In other words, after a long dry spell we suddenly have more than enough Earthsea to last us quite a while... There are a lot of things in there that I can't talk about without serious spoilage. There are a lot of questions answered and a whole bunch of new ones posed... David ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 20:34:20 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-384.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76822 On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:48:05 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article >: >> wrote: >> > > Practically any book by Piers Anthony. More than any other modern >> > > author, Anthony is supremely aware that he gets paid by the word. > >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > >> That's not possible. > >Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. On the >other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid a flat fee >for each new book. (He certainly doesn't get a flat fee for each new >plot or character!) > Steuard Jensen It may have something to do with shelf space. I'm continually amazed at how much shelf space Anthony takes up in the average mall bookstore. -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 33 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:29:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1013311762 24.190.150.253 (Sat, 09 Feb 2002 22:29:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 22:29:22 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:76837 In article <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com>, lazarus wrote: > On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:48:05 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article > >: > >> wrote: > >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > > > >> That's not possible. > > > >Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. On the > >other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid a flat fee > >for each new book. (He certainly doesn't get a flat fee for each new > >plot or character!) > > Steuard Jensen > > It may have something to do with shelf space. I'm continually amazed > at how much shelf space Anthony takes up in the average mall > bookstore. So am I. It's the sheer number of books he has in print, I guess. HOW he managed to get so many mediocre novels published, on the other hand, is beyond me. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:28:22 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com> References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-583.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77158 On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:29:22 GMT, Orac wrote: >In article <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com>, > lazarus wrote: > >> On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:48:05 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >> >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article >> >: >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) >> > >> >> That's not possible. >> > >> >Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. On the >> >other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid a flat fee >> >for each new book. (He certainly doesn't get a flat fee for each new >> >plot or character!) >> > Steuard Jensen >> >> It may have something to do with shelf space. I'm continually amazed >> at how much shelf space Anthony takes up in the average mall >> bookstore. > >So am I. It's the sheer number of books he has in print, I guess. HOW he >managed to get so many mediocre novels published, on the other hand, is >beyond me. They appear to be purchased, which is more shocking. There's no other explanation I can come up with short of demonic pacts. -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com ###### From: Orac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Organization: The most powerful computer in the galaxy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com> <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 44 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 01:12:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.150.253 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1013389948 24.190.150.253 (Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:12:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:12:28 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77152 In article <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com>, lazarus wrote: > On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:29:22 GMT, Orac wrote: > > >In article <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com>, > > lazarus wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 13:48:05 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >> > >> >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article > >> >: > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Even more aware than Robert Jordan? :-) > >> > > >> >> That's not possible. > >> > > >> >Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. On the > >> >other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid a flat fee > >> >for each new book. (He certainly doesn't get a flat fee for each new > >> >plot or character!) > >> > Steuard Jensen > >> > >> It may have something to do with shelf space. I'm continually amazed > >> at how much shelf space Anthony takes up in the average mall > >> bookstore. > > > >So am I. It's the sheer number of books he has in print, I guess. HOW he > >managed to get so many mediocre novels published, on the other hand, is > >beyond me. > > They appear to be purchased, which is more shocking. There's no other > explanation I can come up with short of demonic pacts. Indeed. Even the lack of taste of the American public is not sufficient to explain this phenomenon. -- Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." | |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you | inconvenience me with questions?" ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com> <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1013441260 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:27:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:27:40 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: MpR98-10451-x4-1371@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: f23b52d2 752e2b56 3b5bebce 0a9367bf 89004c20 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:27:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77017 Quoth lazarus in article <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com>: > On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:29:22 GMT, Orac wrote: > >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >> >Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. > >> >On the other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid > >> >a flat fee for each new book. > >So am I. It's the sheer number of books he has in print, I > >guess. HOW he managed to get so many mediocre novels published, on > >the other hand, is beyond me. > They appear to be purchased, which is more shocking. There's no > other explanation I can come up with short of demonic pacts. It's not _all_ that shocking that they're purchased. Easy-to-read science fiction and fantasy is always at least a little bit appealing to young boys. Then they start reading the Xanth books and get to hear all about a wide range of girls' panties... and then they discover that in his other series, the characters actually have explicitly described sex with each other, and in one series actually spend half their time in the nude (no joke). I can't _imagine_ why his books sell so well. :) Er, all this was deduced from third-party reviews, of course. ;) Steuard Jensen ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:03:20 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <80nb6ugu33633s7br1f8bimbos8rbvfs69@4ax.com> <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-673.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77324 On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:27:40 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth lazarus in article ><3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com>: >> On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 03:29:22 GMT, Orac wrote: >> >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >> >Good point... Piers Anthony's books aren't particularly long. >> >> >On the other hand, he has zillions of them; perhaps he gets paid >> >> >a flat fee for each new book. > >> >So am I. It's the sheer number of books he has in print, I >> >guess. HOW he managed to get so many mediocre novels published, on >> >the other hand, is beyond me. > >> They appear to be purchased, which is more shocking. There's no >> other explanation I can come up with short of demonic pacts. > >It's not _all_ that shocking that they're purchased. Easy-to-read >science fiction and fantasy is always at least a little bit appealing >to young boys. Then they start reading the Xanth books and get to >hear all about a wide range of girls' panties... and then they >discover that in his other series, the characters actually have >explicitly described sex with each other, and in one series actually >spend half their time in the nude (no joke). I can't _imagine_ why >his books sell so well. :) > >Er, all this was deduced from third-party reviews, of course. ;) > > Steuard Jensen Why, Steuard, you naughty boy. Admittedly, I bought some Anthony when I was young, but I gave it up quick. Once I realisd he was in effect a one man writing mill, just churning stuff out with no thought for quality.... -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1013468451 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:00:51 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:00:51 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: D2Y98-14018-x4-2238@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: e4e6c371 96562bd5 4a0a9f3b 52d36e57 b79ffcc3 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:00:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77233 [Speaking of Piers Anthony] Quoth lazarus in article : > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >It's not _all_ that shocking that they're purchased. Easy-to-read > >science fiction and fantasy is always at least a little bit appealing > >to young boys. Then they start reading the Xanth books and get to > >hear all about a wide range of girls' panties... [snip] > >I can't _imagine_ why his books sell so well. :) > >Er, all this was deduced from third-party reviews, of course. ;) > Why, Steuard, you naughty boy. When you're in early puberty and have the social skills of an average tomato, you've got to find out about such things somewhere. :) > Admittedly, I bought some Anthony when I was young, but I gave it up > quick. Once I realisd he was in effect a one man writing mill, just > churning stuff out with no thought for quality.... See, I'm ahead of you there: I bought almost none of the stuff. I just read a bunch of his books at my local library. :) The stories _were_ entertaining, after all (even beyond the sexual bits)... they just weren't particularly original. I read so much as a kid that it was easy to read a dozen Xanth books before it sank in that they were all the same. It did hit me eventually, of course... which made me realize that _all_ of Anthony's books were the same (and not that good, either). Once I realized that, I began to notice the same failings in other authors whose books I'd been reading, and the whole effect ballooned out until I truly enjoyed very little fantasy other than Tolkien. (I like a good bit of Barbara Hambly's early work, particularly _Dragonsbane_, and I've come to like Pratchett recently, too... and I could list a number of others if I had the time to do it.) My wife claims that I complain about Piers Anthony on these newsgroups because of my lingering shame for enjoying his books when I was younger. Who knows... she may even be right. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Worst post-Tolkien fantasy Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:27:47 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <270120021001393760%dsalo@usa.net> <3vsd6u4r66mrig7d7k5efff6qumbqcuepj@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-848.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:77329 On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:00:51 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >[Speaking of Piers Anthony] > >Quoth lazarus in article >: >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >It's not _all_ that shocking that they're purchased. Easy-to-read >> >science fiction and fantasy is always at least a little bit appealing >> >to young boys. Then they start reading the Xanth books and get to >> >hear all about a wide range of girls' panties... >[snip] >> >I can't _imagine_ why his books sell so well. :) > >> >Er, all this was deduced from third-party reviews, of course. ;) > >> Why, Steuard, you naughty boy. > >When you're in early puberty and have the social skills of an average >tomato, you've got to find out about such things somewhere. :) > My justification as well. >> Admittedly, I bought some Anthony when I was young, but I gave it up >> quick. Once I realisd he was in effect a one man writing mill, just >> churning stuff out with no thought for quality.... > >See, I'm ahead of you there: I bought almost none of the stuff. I >just read a bunch of his books at my local library. :) The stories >_were_ entertaining, after all (even beyond the sexual bits)... they >just weren't particularly original. I read so much as a kid that it >was easy to read a dozen Xanth books before it sank in that they were >all the same. It did hit me eventually, of course... which made me >realize that _all_ of Anthony's books were the same (and not that >good, either). Once I realized that, I began to notice the same >failings in other authors whose books I'd been reading, and the whole >effect ballooned out until I truly enjoyed very little fantasy other >than Tolkien. (I like a good bit of Barbara Hambly's early work, >particularly _Dragonsbane_, and I've come to like Pratchett recently, >too... and I could list a number of others if I had the time to do >it.) > >My wife claims that I complain about Piers Anthony on these newsgroups >because of my lingering shame for enjoying his books when I was >younger. Who knows... she may even be right. :) > > Steuard Jensen You know, your point about how easy it was to miss the similarities is well taken, i didn't really notice until I went on an author kick, where I would read all of an author at once. Lord, that broke me of him quick. -- lazarus War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. -- Ambrose Bierce www.willpitt.com