From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Date: 26 Jan 2002 06:03:06 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 41 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.88.187 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012053786 23594 127.0.0.1 (26 Jan 2002 14:03:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2002 14:03:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75578 When Tolkien and Lewis decided that they did not like what was being written and that what they liked was not being written, they divided the field. Lewis would do space travel and Tolkien would do time travel. Both areas of science fiction. But everyone sees Lord of the Rings as fantasy. perhaps because it is written from the view point of the Hobbits. Arthur Clarke wrote that any advanced technology is seen as magic by those who are from a less advanced world. So, in the same line of thought, it is not unreasonable to say that what the Hobbits saw as magic was really the advanced technology of the Elves. The Elges were in fact curious about what the Hobbits called magic. It is only ordinary stuff that we have made, but we do have skills, they would say. I don't remember anything that could not be explained as a very advanced technology. Of course, most science fiction is occupied with some effort to explain the technology and Tolkien only used it. But others who were recognized science fiction writers did the same. No need to beat the idea to death, but it is curious that the history of the work and the allusions seem to place it in fantasy more than science fiction, which is usually located in the future. Is that the dividing line? Past is fantasy and future is science fiction? Tolkine, in his early history of the creation gave enough time for the Elves, especially Feanor to build advanced technology - especially solid state physics and optics. Telchar seemed to build swords with microcircuits that could detect Orcs and emit light in response. More solid state physics and advanced computing. Perhaps beings like Morgoth and Sauron are incompatable with science fiction and belong only in fantasy. Or are they? If they are compatable in science fiction, perhaps they even exsist in the age of Man. Are languages scientific? Or fantasy? Or neither? Semantics was the scienct that Robert Heinlein studied after he started writing. He was trained as an engineer, but did advanced work in general semantics. Just a thought. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 06:28:05 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c19.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75356 In article <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com>, gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) wrote: >When Tolkien and Lewis decided that they did not like what was being >written and that what they liked was not being written, they divided >the field. Lewis would do space travel and Tolkien would do time >travel. Both areas of science fiction. But everyone sees Lord of the those would be the numenor stories which were never finished ###### From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Message-ID: <3c52be45.2282127@news.powersurfr.com> References: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 14 Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:34:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.109.100.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 1012055550 24.109.100.252 (Sat, 26 Jan 2002 07:32:30 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 07:32:30 MST Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75148 On 26 Jan 2002 06:03:06 -0800, gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) wrote, in part: >Lewis would do space travel and Tolkien would do time >travel. Both areas of science fiction. But everyone sees Lord of the >Rings as fantasy. It's "The Lost Road" that involved time travel. However, Tolkien's books involve supernatural forces, not technology. That's what makes them fantasy instead of science-fiction. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: "AC" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> <3c52be45.2282127@news.powersurfr.com> Subject: Re: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:10:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75122 "John Savard" wrote in message news:3c52be45.2282127@news.powersurfr.com... > On 26 Jan 2002 06:03:06 -0800, gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) > wrote, in part: > > >Lewis would do space travel and Tolkien would do time > >travel. Both areas of science fiction. But everyone sees Lord of the > >Rings as fantasy. > > It's "The Lost Road" that involved time travel. > > However, Tolkien's books involve supernatural forces, not technology. > That's what makes them fantasy instead of science-fiction. I think even the term "fantasy" is somewhat of a misnomer, if you take LotR as part of a continuum from the Music of the Ainur to the beginning of the Fourth Age. It is a mythological work that encompasses the fantasy genre, but certainly goes beyond it in scope and intent. -- AaronC ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Date: 27 Jan 2002 06:15:20 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0201270615.16ecf9ca@posting.google.com> References: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> <3c52be45.2282127@news.powersurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.88.187 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012140920 19016 127.0.0.1 (27 Jan 2002 14:15:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2002 14:15:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75686 jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) wrote in message news:<3c52be45.2282127@news.powersurfr.com>... > On 26 Jan 2002 06:03:06 -0800, gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) > wrote, in part: > > >Lewis would do space travel and Tolkien would do time > >travel. Both areas of science fiction. But everyone sees Lord of the > >Rings as fantasy. > > It's "The Lost Road" that involved time travel. > > However, Tolkien's books involve supernatural forces, not technology. > That's what makes them fantasy instead of science-fiction. > > John Savard > http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html John W. Campbell Jr. used to say that any theme could be made science fiction if it had science, for an example - a vampire with a blood bank would be sf. One could say that all of literature involves supernatural forces. I need to think more before I can respond - if ever. Thanks, Gary ###### From: const32@hotmail.com (Constantine) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Date: 28 Jan 2002 03:40:19 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: <915989d9.0201280340.73b870f8@posting.google.com> References: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.251.0.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012218019 13666 127.0.0.1 (28 Jan 2002 11:40:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2002 11:40:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75341 gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) wrote in message news:<38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com>... > Are languages scientific? Or fantasy? Or neither? Semantics was the > scienct that Robert Heinlein studied after he started writing. He was > trained as an engineer, but did advanced work in general semantics. > > Just a thought. I think there are different types of science fiction, depending on the prevailing science in one's work. For example, the science behind Arthur Clarke's work is physics; in most of his books, he is trying to explain how things would have worked in a technologically advanced society. The science behind Tolkien's work is linguistics. It is a sort of 'what if' scenario in a world where people speak Quenya, Sindarin, Khuzdul, Adunaic and so on, and thus a great deal of effort has been made to produce stories, myths and explanations for the names of people, places, artifacts etc. Another type of science fiction is that of Philip Dick and Ursula LeGuin, where - I think - the sciences mostly used to explain things is psychology and sociology. This is not a rule for judging whether a written piece of work is SF; it is just a way to approach the matter. Constantine ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Tolkien really write Science Fiction? Date: 29 Jan 2002 05:28:42 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 48 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0201290528.73715da8@posting.google.com> References: <38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com> <915989d9.0201280340.73b870f8@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012310922 20165 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2002 13:28:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2002 13:28:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75556 const32@hotmail.com (Constantine) wrote in message news:<915989d9.0201280340.73b870f8@posting.google.com>... > gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) wrote in message news:<38aeacaa.0201260603.41b7b5e4@posting.google.com>... > > > > > Are languages scientific? Or fantasy? Or neither? Semantics was the > > scienct that Robert Heinlein studied after he started writing. He was > > trained as an engineer, but did advanced work in general semantics. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > I think there are different types of science fiction, depending on the > prevailing science in one's work. For example, the science behind > Arthur Clarke's work is physics; in most of his books, he is trying to > explain how things would have worked in a technologically advanced > society. > > The science behind Tolkien's work is linguistics. It is a sort of > 'what if' scenario in a world where people speak Quenya, Sindarin, > Khuzdul, Adunaic and so on, and thus a great deal of effort has been > made to produce stories, myths and explanations for the names of > people, places, artifacts etc. > > Another type of science fiction is that of Philip Dick and Ursula > LeGuin, where - I think - the sciences mostly used to explain things > is psychology and sociology. > > This is not a rule for judging whether a written piece of work is SF; > it is just a way to approach the matter. > > Constantine Philip K. Dick is very much in favor for movies, these days. Just about anything he wrote is made into a film. But I think his best works "Solor Lottery" "The World Jones Made" and perhaps "Ubik" will make better films. But they also face the problems of putting a film into a book. Perhaps short series on television is where these books ought to go. Lower budget, less risk and some degree of control of time. "Lord of the Rings - the Series" would be quite a show. It could take as many shows as they need. And if you don't like Bombadil, then don't watch that show.