From: "Hippolyte Lizard" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:46:57 -0800 Organization: Sceloporus Academy Lines: 17 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Hippolyte Lizard" NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.233.207.62 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!news-in.superfeed.net!news.futuresouth.com!news.inlinenet.net!attga1!attga2!attws2!ip.att.net!news.or.intel.com!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73773 Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but in the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. Is it explained in some part of the canon I missed why Elves just don't go in for the multiplication that the rest of us take such pleasure in? They're worse than Dwarves. Sheesh. I say this because Dwarves seem genetically indisposed to rapid increase, being as only one in three turns out female and not even Dwarves seem to find them all that irresistible. A millennia-old Elvish queen, on the other hand, gets even Gimli's axe up. HL ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:18:30 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1011737910 20600 129.241.210.168 (22 Jan 2002 22:18:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:18:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73820 In article , Hippolyte Lizard wrote: >Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for >example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and >then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but in >the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. [and so on] Seems to me like Middle Earth people in general have a very low sex drive, reproducing maybe at or below replacement level on average for most of the Third Age. Look at the Shire, for instance; they have a pretty healthy and well-established little civilization in the middle of a lot of unused land, and they've been sitting there for centuries without expanding much. If the hobbits had been breeding like humans they'd have pushed much further out into that unused land. Heck, if *humans* had been breeding like historical-era humans, they'd have filled up that land by expanding from Gondor and Rohan and so on. In fact it's even mentioned at the end of LotR that this is now expected to happen (perhaps the presence of Sauron in the world caused low sperm counts or something). -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:21:29 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c21.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73899 In article , "Hippolyte Lizard" wrote: >Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for they quickly go into darby and joan mode ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:44:32 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.4.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1011802762 62.59.4.26 (Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:19:22 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:19:22 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73786 Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y wrote: >Seems to me like Middle Earth people in general have a very low sex >drive, reproducing maybe at or below replacement level on average for >most of the Third Age. Concerning the elves, this is logical. They are immortal. Immortal beings should not be very fertile because they don't need that much replacement. And can you imagine an elf having her period?! :-) And don't forget that for a population to increase in size quickly, it already has to be pretty big to begin with. A small population will grow slowly. But as to the hobbits and humans, I don't know. Maybe Sauron gave them headaches. Greetings, T. ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:25:55 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1011745555 27477 166.84.1.1 (23 Jan 2002 00:25:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2002 00:25:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73784 In article , Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y wrote: >In article , >Hippolyte Lizard wrote: >>Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for >>example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and >>then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but in >>the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. >Seems to me like Middle Earth people in general have a very low sex >drive, reproducing maybe at or below replacement level on average for >most of the Third Age. Look at the Shire, for instance; they have >a pretty healthy and well-established little civilization in the >middle of a lot of unused land, and they've been sitting there >for centuries without expanding much. If the hobbits had been >breeding like humans they'd have pushed much further out into that >unused land. Heck, if *humans* had been breeding like historical-era >humans, they'd have filled up that land by expanding from Gondor and >Rohan and so on. In fact it's even mentioned at the end of LotR that >this is now expected to happen (perhaps the presence of Sauron in the >world caused low sperm counts or something). Unchecked population growth just wasn't a factor in the thinking of people in medieval times. They had lots of wars and famines and not much in the way of effective medicine, and people died all over the place for all kinds of reasons. As a result populations were low, and reasonably close to stable for long periods of time (booms and crashes more or less evening out), and there was indeed a lot of under-used land. This was just a fact of life, and assumed without question in the epics which inspired Tolkien. It wasn't until Malthus that anybody thought to worry about overpopulation, and only in recent decades have such concerns become widespread. The trouble is that Tolkien has removed much of the squalor and disease from his world without thinking about the real-world consequences, so he is left without an explanation for the low population growth. I rather suspect the question never even occurred to him when he was writing, and wouldn't have interested him much if it had. I think he did want to make Middle-Earth "real", but he was just interested in other aspects of reality. -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 04:28:07 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3c4e3bbc.46679480@news.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-867.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73821 On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:46:57 -0800, "Hippolyte Lizard" posted the following: >Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for >example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and >then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but in >the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. >Is it explained in some part of the canon I missed why Elves just don't go >in for the multiplication that the rest of us take such pleasure in? I would guess that their infinite lifespans don't give them as much of a drive to produce offspring. -Chris ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:32:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1011774736 8493 129.241.210.168 (23 Jan 2002 08:32:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:32:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!deine.net!uio.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73812 In article , John Brock wrote: > >Unchecked population growth just wasn't a factor in the thinking >of people in medieval times. They had lots of wars and famines >and not much in the way of effective medicine, and people died all >over the place for all kinds of reasons. As a result populations >were low, and reasonably close to stable for long periods of time >(booms and crashes more or less evening out), and there was indeed >a lot of under-used land. This was just a fact of life, and assumed >without question in the epics which inspired Tolkien. It wasn't >until Malthus that anybody thought to worry about overpopulation, >and only in recent decades have such concerns become widespread. Uh, I don't think this is entirely accurate. Certainly there were periodic die-offs due to war or such, but the population would grow right back to capacity in a very few generations, and whatever land was available and useful would be used in some fashion. Look at what happened in Scandinavia in the late middle ages; the Black Death wiped out possibly more than half the population and very many farms were abandoned by the survivors. A couple of generations later the population had grown back and most of these farms were resettled in short order. Admittedly, a number of places were never again farmed, but these had been marginal before the plague and were now even less desirable because new technology and social organization [1] made better farmland relatively more productive than before. We never did have vast tracts of unused land that *might* have been farmed productively, not for long. [1] The aftermath of the Black Death led to a major social/ economic shakeup. It is sometimes considered the end of the middle ages, or the beginning of the end. People argue about this and write books on the subject. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: "g.skinner" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:02:40 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.243.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1011780386 62.252.243.181 (Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:06:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:06:26 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73741 > Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for > example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and > then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but in > the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. > Is it explained in some part of the canon I missed why Elves just don't go > in for the multiplication that the rest of us take such pleasure in? > They're worse than Dwarves. Sheesh. > > I say this because Dwarves seem genetically indisposed to rapid increase, > being as only one in three turns out female and not even Dwarves seem to > find them all that irresistible. A millennia-old Elvish queen, on the other > hand, gets even Gimli's axe up. > Just because Elrond only had three childred does not mean that he wasn't very frisky, perhaps he was infertile after a certain age. Or perhaps due to their lifespan they could only conceive every few hundred years. I think just because JRRT never wrote about it, does not mean that it did not go on. If he'd included everything in his book (toilet breaks etc) I'd probably still be reading FotR when I'm seventy (I'm a mere 31 now.) I'm not surprised about the lack of interest in female dwarves, if they look anything like Gimli in the film! ###### From: geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Keywords: fnord X-Face: ^w`SR8R8?8Zj:n/X;4k-#NX(z?)JQ`&py16%}'likbP2~n^dxk4r3ci++#l6-8`.3m]^w\%*T4m;a2N0Q$S_]U>,V{lKBmvTzE'+xpbNElX<%89xC`s>ty8lA|&W&euaUOKa8rbdZ5v#[9\jr7_k(RpcZ\._FqT&NZKN*j_`s%I53git Organization: Geoducks Forever Reply-To: geoduck@webave.com Message-ID: <3c4eec60.12708679@news.olywa.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:01:33 CST X-Trace: sv3-4j23wwMLImzXjpJFtnBT2+tfFBb486fLzd2NgsMUbK4814NWR3CpzvPJwcpndVRdz5eLmOEoB8EWdqN!AX2SgJO+HKRj6THNF4gj9zp4vqD3c0Sp1Jy7a6ynDay3oCOXq0POPOxHvbbMdm42dA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:01:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73777 On 22 Jan 2002 19:25:55 -0500, jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote: (snip) >The trouble is that Tolkien has removed much of the squalor and >disease from his world without thinking about the real-world >consequences, so he is left without an explanation for the low >population growth. I rather suspect the question never even occurred >to him when he was writing, and wouldn't have interested him much >if it had. I think he did want to make Middle-Earth "real", but >he was just interested in other aspects of reality. It should be pointed out that in the Appendixes it's mentioned that all of Middle Earth went through a really nasty period around the time of Bilbo's birth- there was the Fell Winter, and various plagues running amok. -- Geoduck http://www.olywa.net/cook ###### From: jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:15:56 GMT Organization: A.B.T-C Thought Police K-9 squad Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3c4eef96.19330139@news.vt.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hc65243c6.dhcp.vt.edu X-Trace: solaris.cc.vt.edu 1011806011 18670 198.82.67.198 (23 Jan 2002 17:13:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:13:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73746 On 22 Jan 2002 19:25:55 -0500, jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote: >oved much of the squalor and >disease from his world without thinking about the real-world >consequences, so he is left without an explanation for the low >population growth. I rather suspect the question never even occurred >to him when he was writing, and wouldn't have interested him much >if it had. I think he did want to make Middle-Earth "real", but >he was just interested in other aspects of reality. There is at least on massive plague and, IIRC, two unnaturally long and brutal winters. -- Cadet Corporal, Hotel Company, Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets, "Ut Prosim" Cadet, MS II, New River Battalion, US Army ROTC, "Leadership, Excellence" "No day in which you send rounds downrange is a bad day." LCpl Steve Won Pride NOW, Tradition ALWAYS, HOTEL FOREVER! ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:21:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1011831690 12.79.28.52 (Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:21:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:21:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74081 "Hippolyte Lizard" wrote in message news:a2kj3b$9bo@news.or.intel.com... > Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that > Elrond, for example, had his three children around the beginning of > the Third Age and then no more. The elves were apparently able to choose whether to conceive or not, and generally had their children early in the course of a marriage. ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:33:46 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1011835911 17922 130.231.6.54 (24 Jan 2002 01:31:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2002 01:31:51 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74046 "Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y" wrote in message news:a2kofm$k3o$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no... > In article , > Hippolyte Lizard wrote: > >Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for > >example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and > >then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but in > >the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. Hey, Elrond was knee-deep in the kids compared to Celeborn&Galadriel. During something like 7000 years of their marriage, they had one (1) child. > unused land. Heck, if *humans* had been breeding like historical-era > humans, they'd have filled up that land by expanding from Gondor and > Rohan and so on. Historical era humans just do not always have reproduced like last 2-300 years. Population of Europe remained fairly stale - in fact it declined - between 200 and 1200 AD. (and then there was Black Death wiping out 1/3 of population but that's another matter). There are also examples of societies having population decline - and not just modern societies. Like Rome, the number of citizens of Roman descent began to decline and this led to slow "barbarization" of the Empire. Same thing happened in Byzant (to which Gondor's history is loosely based on); once the Empire of millions of people, and the city of hundreds of thousands, but when it fell at 1453 it could mobilize mere 7000 soldiers to defend its walls... It seems clear that wars especially with Angmar weakened the state of Arnor considerably, leading to weakening economy, fall of governing structures, destruction of infrastructure and finally splintering of populations. All of which usually lead to population decline, and fully credible as such; although Eriador looks so deserted in the book it bit stretches credibility. ###### From: jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:36:02 GMT Organization: A.B.T-C Thought Police K-9 squad Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hc65243c6.dhcp.vt.edu X-Trace: solaris.cc.vt.edu 1011836018 8379 198.82.67.198 (24 Jan 2002 01:33:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:33:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74042 On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:21:30 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"Hippolyte Lizard" wrote in message >news:a2kj3b$9bo@news.or.intel.com... > >> Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that >> Elrond, for example, had his three children around the beginning of >> the Third Age and then no more. > >The elves were apparently able to choose whether to conceive or not, >and generally had their children early in the course of a marriage. One of the HoME books has an essay on Elvish marriage customs and related topics. Supposedly having children took a lot more out of an Elf than it did humans. I'm not sure exactly what Tolkien meant by that. ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:36:29 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 26 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011839788 18393 132.236.86.124 (24 Jan 2002 02:36:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2002 02:36:28 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74039 In article <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu>, jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:21:30 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" > wrote: > > >"Hippolyte Lizard" wrote in message > >news:a2kj3b$9bo@news.or.intel.com... > > > >> Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that > >> Elrond, for example, had his three children around the beginning of > >> the Third Age and then no more. > > > >The elves were apparently able to choose whether to conceive or not, > >and generally had their children early in the course of a marriage. > > One of the HoME books has an essay on Elvish marriage customs and > related topics. Supposedly having children took a lot more out of an > Elf than it did humans. I'm not sure exactly what Tolkien meant by > that It would make sense, since he also intimated that having children at all spelled loss of immortality for a maia. -- "A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right." ###### From: "Hippolyte Lizard" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:53:35 -0800 Organization: Sceloporus Academy Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> Reply-To: "Hippolyte Lizard" NNTP-Posting-Host: drteeter-desk2.fm.intel.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!zur.uu.net!bos.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!sea.uu.net!news.or.intel.com!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74237 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote in message news:bjm10-3B69DE.21362923012002@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu... > > It would make sense, since he also intimated that having children at all > spelled loss of immortality for a maia. So those urges had to be channeled, hm? That would certainly explain Wormtongue's decrepit appearance after time alone with a frustrated Saruman at Orthanc ... ###### From: jeff_robertson@yahoo.com (Jeff Robertson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: 25 Jan 2002 07:03:28 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 9 Message-ID: <77bae85f.0201250703.37f1a403@posting.google.com> References: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.108.246.252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011971009 25545 127.0.0.1 (25 Jan 2002 15:03:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2002 15:03:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74373 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote in message news:... > > It would make sense, since he also intimated that having children at all > spelled loss of immortality for a maia. Does this mean that by having children a maia gains the "Gift of Men"? Or does "loss of immortality" here mean something else, such as losing the ability to re-embody if physically destroyed? ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:43:16 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p031.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1011977032 8480 212.205.253.31 (25 Jan 2002 16:43:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:43:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74301 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote in message news:bjm10-3B69DE.21362923012002@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu... > > It would make sense, since he also intimated that having children at all > spelled loss of immortality for a maia. No, he didn't. He said that physical things like procreation might bind a Maia closer to his corporeal form, I think. Nothing about "loss of immortality" anymore than elves lose their immortality because they procreate. Aris Katsaris ###### From: jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: 25 Jan 2002 10:44:10 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> <77bae85f.0201250703.37f1a403@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011984251 32095 127.0.0.1 (25 Jan 2002 18:44:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2002 18:44:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74395 jeff_robertson@yahoo.com (Jeff Robertson) wrote in message news:<77bae85f.0201250703.37f1a403@posting.google.com>... > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote in message news:... > > > > It would make sense, since he also intimated that having children at all > > spelled loss of immortality for a maia. > > Does this mean that by having children a maia gains the "Gift of Men"? > > Or does "loss of immortality" here mean something else, such as losing > the ability to re-embody if physically destroyed? The latter. ###### From: jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: 25 Jan 2002 10:45:12 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011984313 32130 127.0.0.1 (25 Jan 2002 18:45:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2002 18:45:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:74388 jaatkin1@vt.edu (Jason Atkinson) wrote in message news:<3c4f6492.49282165@news.vt.edu>... > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:21:30 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" > wrote: > > >"Hippolyte Lizard" wrote in message > >news:a2kj3b$9bo@news.or.intel.com... > > > >> Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that > >> Elrond, for example, had his three children around the beginning of > >> the Third Age and then no more. > > > >The elves were apparently able to choose whether to conceive or not, > >and generally had their children early in the course of a marriage. > > One of the HoME books has an essay on Elvish marriage customs and > related topics. Supposedly having children took a lot more out of an > Elf than it did humans. I'm not sure exactly what Tolkien meant by > that. It appears that having children was an important way for Elven aging. ###### From: dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What's with those Elves anyway? Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:00:59 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 36 Sender: dre1@cornell.invalid (on csic13.cogstud.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: csic13.cogstud.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011999658 24907 128.253.36.150 (25 Jan 2002 23:00:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2002 23:00:58 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!dre1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:75612 In article , "g.skinner" wrote: > > Not very frisky, are they? A glance at timelines revels that Elrond, for > > example, had his three children around the beginning of the Third Age and > > then no more. His wife left town for good a millennium or two later, but > in > > the meantime they could have had a couple hundred more children at least. > > Is it explained in some part of the canon I missed why Elves just don't go > > in for the multiplication that the rest of us take such pleasure in? > > They're worse than Dwarves. Sheesh. > > > > I say this because Dwarves seem genetically indisposed to rapid increase, > > being as only one in three turns out female and not even Dwarves seem to > > find them all that irresistible. A millennia-old Elvish queen, on the > other > > hand, gets even Gimli's axe up. > > > Just because Elrond only had three childred does not mean that he wasn't > very frisky, perhaps he was infertile after a certain age. Or perhaps due to > their lifespan they could only conceive every few hundred years. I think > just because JRRT never wrote about it, does not mean that it did not go on. > If he'd included everything in his book (toilet breaks etc) I'd probably > still be reading FotR when I'm seventy (I'm a mere 31 now.) > > I'm not surprised about the lack of interest in female dwarves, if they look > anything like Gimli in the film! I think you may be right that elves (and probably dwarves, too) are relatively infertile when compared with men. There's a line of Legolas' in "The Return of the King" (p. 182, BB edition), when talking of men with Gimli, "Yet seldom do they fail of their seed". As is common with Tolkien, this can be taken to have more than one meaning. It can relate to Aragorn surviving to restore the kingship, or to men in general. -Doug Elrod (dre1@cornell.edu)