Lines: 30 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Jan 2002 20:43:28 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72184 Greetings... While perusing the "Proceedings of the J.R.R. Tolkien Centenary Conference, Keble College, Oxford, 1992" pub by the Tolkien Soc., and the Mythop. soc, I came across a paper delivered by Alex Lewis entitled "Historical Bias in the Making of The Silmaril". In his paper he concludes and supports that The Silmarillion "...is essentially an elvish viewpoint of the world and its history, and of the kindred of the elves it is essentially Noldorian but distinctly anti-Feanorian." --I definately agree. He writes later "...later in Middle Earth, we are given detailed and lavish description's of the dwellings of Fingolfin's children and of Thingol; Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Doriath, but we are left with bare bones of areas where the seven sons of Feanor live. Maedhros and his brothers live "east beyond Aros" and this important sector is dismissed in thirteen lines of text! Yet the Feanorians and Thingol between them "bore the brunt of Morgoth's attacks"!. This is another instance of the poltical bias skillfully built into The Silmarillion, once more, this could be intentional on the part of Tolkien to create the "feel" of real history as in the real world." I like this position. It agrees with the opinion I derived from reading the Silmarillion my first time thru. The author has spent a fair amount of time dealing with the need/or desire to make the Silmarillion read like a history and that has been discussed a lot in the newsgroup so I have not really addressed that. Best.. Ed ###### Sender: Geza Giedke From: geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970613; i586 Linux 2.0.36] NNTP-Posting-Host: fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Message-ID: <3c420b09$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:32:41 +0100 X-Trace: 13 Jan 2002 23:32:41 +0100, fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!sia.uibk.ac.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72194 Ejen34 wrote: > While perusing the "Proceedings of the J.R.R. Tolkien Centenary Conference, > Keble College, Oxford, 1992" pub by the Tolkien Soc., and the Mythop. soc, I > came across a paper delivered by Alex Lewis entitled "Historical Bias in the > Making of The Silmaril". > In his paper he concludes and supports that The Silmarillion "...is > essentially an elvish viewpoint of the world and its history, and of the > kindred of the elves it is essentially Noldorian but distinctly > anti-Feanorian." ... sounds interesting; have you had a look at the other articles in the proceedings? is the volume worth the 22+4$ the Mythopoeic Society charges for it? (at zShops and ebay its even >39$) thanks for mentioning the reference Geza ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 01:29:30 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1010964458 25800 130.231.6.54 (13 Jan 2002 23:27:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:27:38 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72234 "Ejen34" wrote in message news:20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com... > In his paper he concludes and supports that The Silmarillion "...is essentially > an elvish viewpoint of the world and its history, and of the kindred of the > elves it is essentially Noldorian but distinctly anti-Feanorian." > > --I definately agree. Of course it is: it's also distinctly anti-Morgothian :) > He writes later "...later in Middle Earth, we are given detailed and lavish > description's of the dwellings of Fingolfin's children and of Thingol; > Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Doriath, but we are left with bare bones of areas > where the seven sons of Feanor live. Maedhros and his brothers live "east > beyond Aros" and this important sector is dismissed in thirteen lines of text! > Yet the Feanorians and Thingol between them "bore the brunt of Morgoth's > attacks"!. Actually, I don't the book gives that favourable impression on Thingol. Basically he seems to sit in Doriath safely and happily behind Melian's Girdle, not caring much of the world outside, safe the First Battle after which he withdraws and leaves another Orc army to besiege Havens and Cirdan. After that he treats Noldor coldly even before learning the whole truth behind their arrival; he calls himself "Lord of Beleriand" but does almost nothing to help those outside Doriath; he sends Beren to suicide mission, in same move angering Feanor's sons. Is there any word what kind of history (if any) Tolkien developed for Quenta Silmarillion? Who was supposed to write it? Noldolante was done by Maglor, but it's clearly not the same. The position seems to be someone close to Noldor's non-Feanorian families. Gil-galad or some of his subjects maybe? ###### From: "AC" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:46:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone.hawaii.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72284 "Yama" wrote in message news:a1t55a$p68$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi... > Is there any word what kind of history (if any) Tolkien developed for Quenta > Silmarillion? Who was supposed to write it? Noldolante was done by Maglor, > but it's clearly not the same. The position seems to be someone close to > Noldor's non-Feanorian families. Gil-galad or some of his subjects maybe? In the early works (Lost Tales), it was transferred directly from the Elves of Tol Eressea (which was briefly the same as the isle of Britain) to Eriol, a Man of Northern Europe. Later, it was initially recorded by Pengolod, a scholar of Tol Eressea (I think he may have been from Gondolin) and was translated by Aelfwine of Britain, a mariner who found his way to Tol Eressea. -- AaronC ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:36:14 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.35 X-Server-Date: 14 Jan 2002 00:35:44 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72384 Yama wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Actually, I don't the book gives that favourable impression on Thingol. >Basically he seems to sit in Doriath safely and happily behind Melian's >Girdle, not caring much of the world outside, safe the First Battle after >which he withdraws and leaves another Orc army to besiege Havens and Cirdan. >After that he treats Noldor coldly even before learning the whole truth >behind their arrival; he calls himself "Lord of Beleriand" but does almost >nothing to help those outside Doriath; he sends Beren to suicide mission, in >same move angering Feanor's sons. And he causes the destruction of his kingdom by trying to cheat the Dwarves of the agreed pay for their forging of the Nauglamir. What did Melian ever see in him? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Gadsden) Reply-To: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:00 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Approved: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Ameol2 for Windows 2000 X-Approved: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk X-Matt-Giwer: Nazi Scumbag Message-ID: References: X-Trace: 213a22107e31f0086041427400303620e681388004746109746b62803c423bd4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:00:52 GMT Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!eos Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72380 In article on Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:46:21 GMT, nospam@spam.com (AC) wrote: > "Yama" wrote in message > news:a1t55a$p68$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi... > > Is there any word what kind of history (if any) Tolkien developed for > Quenta > > Silmarillion? Who was supposed to write it? Noldolante was done by > > Maglor, > > but it's clearly not the same. The position seems to be someone close > > to > > Noldor's non-Feanorian families. Gil-galad or some of his subjects > > maybe? > > In the early works (Lost Tales), it was transferred directly from the > Elves > of Tol Eressea (which was briefly the same as the isle of Britain) to > Eriol, > a Man of Northern Europe. Later, it was initially recorded by > Pengolod, a > scholar of Tol Eressea (I think he may have been from Gondolin) and was > translated by Aelfwine of Britain, a mariner who found his way to Tol > Eressea. I've always assumed that it was one of Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish" that he made in Rivendell. -- Richard Gadsden "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 01:01:05 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.9a.0d X-Server-Date: 14 Jan 2002 06:01:06 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!jblanks Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72280 richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: > nospam@spam.com (AC) wrote: > >> "Yama" wrote... >> > Is there any word what kind of history (if any) Tolkien developed for >> > Quenta Silmarillion? >> >> In the early works (Lost Tales), it was transferred directly from the >> Elves of Tol Eressea (which was briefly the same as the isle of Britain) to >> Eriol, a Man of Northern Europe. Later, it was initially recorded by >> Pengolod, a scholar of Tol Eressea (I think he may have been from Gondolin) >> and was translated by Aelfwine of Britain, a mariner who found his way to >> Tol Eressea. > >I've always assumed that it was one of Bilbo's "Translations from the >Elvish" that he made in Rivendell. I think it's fair to say that this is the conception on which JRRT eventually settled. Of course, that leaves open the question of how the "histories" acquire a form that JRRT could "translate" (a question JRRT never even tackled, AFAIK). -- "That's a damned lie! We must die anyway." --W.H. Auden, on his poem "September 1, 1939" ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:14:00 -0800 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinasNoSpam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVazTtPo9ONrt1XLFV8geIvjnc2fxdjDt59PZtbfmdRClC5aZypaKfLU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2002 15:11:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72400 Ejen34 wrote: > In his paper he concludes and supports that The Silmarillion "...is essentially > an elvish viewpoint of the world and its history, and of the kindred of the > elves it is essentially Noldorian but distinctly anti-Feanorian." > > --I definately agree. It's anti-Fëanorian in the same sense in which it is anti-Morgothian. Fëanor and his 7 w. sons were EVIL, and any "pro-Fëanorian" tract would make weird reading indeed. ("And Maedhros and Maglor, having their rightful inheritance withheld by the foul exiles of Gondolin and the hateful remnant of Doriath, had no choice but to resort to force. Although some their people turned traitor during the battle, in the end the thieves were overcome.") -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:09:07 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 28 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011024546 12023 132.236.86.124 (14 Jan 2002 16:09:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2002 16:09:06 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72212 In article <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com>, ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) wrote: > In his paper he concludes and supports that The Silmarillion "...is > essentially > an elvish viewpoint of the world and its history, and of the kindred of > the > elves it is essentially Noldorian but distinctly anti-Feanorian." Actually, I've read the majority of the Middle Earth material as being with some sort of bias. Consider those outright bastards--the Edain/Numenorean/Atani/etc. So they got to live in the West and their ancestors did the umptie dance with some elf chicks--doesn't give them any rights as a master race to rule all other humans. But all we get to read are the state-approved histories of their kingdoms. Stinkin' lousy uppity sea folk. Yeah, THEIR ancestors got lucky and got found by Elves, but did THEY stay with all those other poor folks and try to help THEM out? Nooooo. They abandoned all their kin to Darkness and when they skulked back after betraying their OWN OATH to their buds, they set about conquering everybody they could find and labeling anybody who didn't just roll over for them as "evil" or "tainted by shadow". Well WE can see who's "tainted by shadow" pretty darn well, yeah. -- "A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right." ###### From: arebello64@hotmail.com (AR) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: 14 Jan 2002 13:07:33 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com> References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.63.224.50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011042453 19014 127.0.0.1 (14 Jan 2002 21:07:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2002 21:07:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72565 Flame of the West wrote in message news:<3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com>... > > It's anti-Fëanorian in the same sense in which it is anti-Morgothian. > Fëanor and his 7 w. sons were EVIL, and any "pro-Fëanorian" > tract would make weird reading indeed. > The sons of Feanor were EVIL? With capitol letters? That's a little simplistic don't you think? I think the SoF are like those two soldiers on trial in "A Few Good Men." Yeah, they go to jail in the end but you feel sorry for them for getting caught up in something ugly just because they were following orders. In the same way, the SoF go down an unfortunate path because of thier blind devotion to thier father and thier steadfast resolve to share in any oath and any exile of his. The story of Feanor and his Sons, is really the story of how Morgoth can twist and corrupt anything and anybody. -AR ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:01:03 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.20 X-Server-Date: 14 Jan 2002 22:00:30 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72644 AR wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Flame of the West wrote in message news:<3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com>... >> >> It's anti-Fëanorian in the same sense in which it is anti-Morgothian. >> Fëanor and his 7 w. sons were EVIL, and any "pro-Fëanorian" >> tract would make weird reading indeed. >> >The sons of Feanor were EVIL? With capitol letters? Capitol letters, no. Capital letters, yes. Maedhros and Maglor were the best of them, but even they were bloody murderers. Not in the heat of the moment but after sober thought and discussion, they murdered the guards of the host of the Valar and stole the last two Silmarils. Curufin was much worse, trying to take Luthien against her will and then to kill her. (I think it was Curufin. Celegorm maybe?) >Yeah, they go to jail in the >end but you feel sorry for them for getting caught up in something >ugly just because they were following orders. They were not just following orders. Maedhros was a great lord, who just missed being High King, and he _gave_ orders. His brothers were princes of the Noldor, great leaders in their own right. > The story of Feanor and his Sons, is really the story >of how Morgoth can twist and corrupt anything and anybody. I agree to an extent. And yet Feanor was not compelled to act as he did. His own pride and willfulness were his tragic flaw. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Jan 2002 23:39:15 GMT References: <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020114183915.01534.00000673@mb-cu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72497 In article <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com>, arebello64@hotmail.com (AR) writes: >The sons of Feanor were EVIL? With capitol letters? That's a little >simplistic don't you think? I think the SoF are like those two >soldiers on trial in "A Few Good Men." Yeah, they go to jail in the >end but you feel sorry for them for getting caught up in something >ugly just because they were following orders. In the same way, the >SoF go down an unfortunate path because of thier blind devotion to >thier father and thier steadfast resolve to share in any oath and any >exile of his. The story of Feanor and his Sons, is really the story >of how Morgoth can twist and corrupt anything and anybody. There are clearly differences but I think Celegorm and Curufin can be squarely put in the "EVIL" category. Russ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:49:29 -0800 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com> References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinasNoSpam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbthx/SiLjqo0TFrlhv2lLP3BrXK3Aq7LiZ5hcJu6SUve64T2Hxi0DE X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2002 08:59:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72421 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > Actually, I've read the majority of the Middle Earth material as being > with some sort of bias. Consider those outright bastards--the > Edain/Numenorean/Atani/etc. So they got to live in the West and their > ancestors did the umptie dance with some elf chicks--doesn't give them > any rights as a master race to rule all other humans. But all we get to > read are the state-approved histories of their kingdoms. > > Stinkin' lousy uppity sea folk. Yeah, THEIR ancestors got lucky and got > found by Elves, but did THEY stay with all those other poor folks and > try to help THEM out? Nooooo. They abandoned all their kin to Darkness > and when they skulked back after betraying their OWN OATH to their buds, > they set about conquering everybody they could find and labeling anybody > who didn't just roll over for them as "evil" or "tainted by shadow". > Well WE can see who's "tainted by shadow" pretty darn well, yeah. I assume this is a parody since it implies you are rooting *against* Aragorn and indeed all the good guys in LotR. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Bryan Maloney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: 15 Jan 2002 14:07:20 GMT Organization: Flarg Wa Zoo Lines: 40 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com) Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011103640 7510 24.58.37.210 (15 Jan 2002 14:07:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2002 14:07:20 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72513 Flame of the West wrote in news:3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com: > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > >> Actually, I've read the majority of the Middle Earth material as being >> with some sort of bias. Consider those outright bastards--the >> Edain/Numenorean/Atani/etc. So they got to live in the West and their >> ancestors did the umptie dance with some elf chicks--doesn't give them >> any rights as a master race to rule all other humans. But all we get >> to read are the state-approved histories of their kingdoms. >> >> Stinkin' lousy uppity sea folk. Yeah, THEIR ancestors got lucky and >> got found by Elves, but did THEY stay with all those other poor folks >> and try to help THEM out? Nooooo. They abandoned all their kin to >> Darkness and when they skulked back after betraying their OWN OATH to >> their buds, they set about conquering everybody they could find and >> labeling anybody who didn't just roll over for them as "evil" or >> "tainted by shadow". Well WE can see who's "tainted by shadow" pretty >> darn well, yeah. > > I assume this is a parody since it implies you are rooting *against* > Aragorn and indeed all the good guys in LotR. > No, I'm rooting against the idea of any sort of inherent "right to rule" based upon having some sort of "pure" bloodline. Not being a racist, I'm kind of funny that way. -- "Why then did the passengers on the plane that went down near Pittsburgh decide to resist the hijackers and prevent them from completing their mission? Because they knew: their relatives had told them by cell phone that the World Trade Center had already been attacked by hijacked planes. They were armed with final awareness of the nature of the evil they faced. So armed, they could act. So armed, they did." --Time Magazine ###### From: ireneshaw@earthlink.net (Irene) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: 15 Jan 2002 10:20:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: <474b0611.0201151020.65c0d717@posting.google.com> References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.162.158.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011118808 17630 127.0.0.1 (15 Jan 2002 18:20:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2002 18:20:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72573 Or it could just be that Feanor is simply a beastly being who caused countless years of anguish to his own people because of his own inflated pride! You could also claim that the Silmarillion is distinctly biased against Melkor. Luthien ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) wrote in message news:<20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com>... > Greetings... > While perusing the "Proceedings of the J.R.R. Tolkien Centenary Conference, > Keble College, Oxford, 1992" pub by the Tolkien Soc., and the Mythop. soc, I > came across a paper delivered by Alex Lewis entitled "Historical Bias in the > Making of The Silmaril". > > In his paper he concludes and supports that The Silmarillion "...is essentially > an elvish viewpoint of the world and its history, and of the kindred of the > elves it is essentially Noldorian but distinctly anti-Feanorian." > > --I definately agree. > > He writes later "...later in Middle Earth, we are given detailed and lavish > description's of the dwellings of Fingolfin's children and of Thingol; > Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Doriath, but we are left with bare bones of areas > where the seven sons of Feanor live. Maedhros and his brothers live "east > beyond Aros" and this important sector is dismissed in thirteen lines of text! > Yet the Feanorians and Thingol between them "bore the brunt of Morgoth's > attacks"!. This is another instance of the poltical bias skillfully built into > The Silmarillion, once more, this could be intentional on the part of Tolkien > to create the "feel" of real history as in the real world." > > I like this position. It agrees with the opinion I derived from reading the > Silmarillion my first time thru. The author has spent a fair amount of time > dealing with the need/or desire to make the Silmarillion read like a history > and that has been discussed a lot in the newsgroup so I have not really > addressed that. > > Best.. > Ed ###### From: Brian E. Clark Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.227.48.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1011161037 12.227.48.189 (Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:03:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:03:57 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:03:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72798 Flame of the West wrote, > It's anti-Fëanorian in the same sense in which it is > anti-Morgothian. Fëanor and his 7 w. sons were EVIL, > and any "pro-Fëanorian" tract would make weird reading > indeed. Real-world histories usually treat the group who composes them sympathetically but describe out-groups as misguided or troublesome or wicked. The point seems to be that (according to the writer in question, at least), Tolkien's created histories show a similar partiality, which grants those histories a greater feeling of authenticity. Noldorin chroniclers would portray outsiders (Feanor and his sons, Thingol and his people) as more malicious, less pure of purpose. An account of the kin-slaying written by the people of Feanor, by contrast, might not show such eagerness to lay the principal blame on the Big F. :) -- Brian E. Clark brianteleramacom ____________________________________________________ It is a sin to believe evil of others, but it is seldom a mistake. -- H. L. Mencken ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Jan 2002 12:22:49 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020116072249.07935.00000223@mb-mw.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72713 In article , Brian E. Clark writes: >Noldorin chroniclers would portray outsiders (Feanor and his >sons, Thingol and his people) as more malicious, less pure >of purpose. An account of the kin-slaying written by the >people of Feanor, by contrast, might not show such eagerness >to lay the principal blame on the Big F. :) > Brian... And since Elrond was the primary chronicler, there you have it... Ed ###### From: const32@hotmail.com (Constantine) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: 16 Jan 2002 06:49:37 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 38 Message-ID: <915989d9.0201160649.7a4f60f4@posting.google.com> References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.251.0.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011192578 13953 127.0.0.1 (16 Jan 2002 14:49:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 2002 14:49:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72784 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > > The story of Feanor and his Sons, is really the story > >of how Morgoth can twist and corrupt anything and anybody. > > I agree to an extent. And yet Feanor was not compelled to act as he > did. His own pride and willfulness were his tragic flaw. I think this is a recurring subject in Tolkien's work: even the noblest of causes can be corrupted and eventually become void when somebody, in his effort to serve it, disregards everything else. It follows that the strongest and most powerful people (e.g. Feanor) are the most likely to fall in such a trap, because they actually have the means of achieving it. Feanor's rightful claim on the Silmarils is one thing and bringing the whole world to ruin in the course of pursuing his goal is another. It appears that Maedhros and Maglor had honest motives when they took the Oath (trying to help their father restore the wrong that Morgoth had done to him), but they were probably not realising at that time that they would have had to fight against _everybody_ (including their own people) and perform several other less noble deeds, as it turned out to be in the end of the story. This is perhaps an origin of Evil: trying to achieve something at all costs, and wiping out everything else in the process. For example, many tyrants have begun by honestly trying to establish 'order' before getting out of control (they achieve order alright, but what good is order among slaves?) Similarly, Maedhros and Maglor's getting the Silmarils back is a bit like somebody stuck in a desert island with a crate full of diamonds... So I'm not sure if the Silmarillion is anti-Feanorian; it is rather anti-..., well, whatever you call that thing I've just described! Constantine ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Jan 2002 15:30:31 GMT References: <20020116072249.07935.00000223@mb-mw.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020116103031.06527.00000038@mb-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72708 In article <20020116072249.07935.00000223@mb-mw.aol.com>, ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) writes: >Brian... > >And since Elrond was the primary chronicler, there you have it... Actually, it was a loremaster form Gondolin. Russ ###### Lines: 22 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Jan 2002 15:54:49 GMT References: <20020116103031.06527.00000038@mb-fo.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020116105449.05154.00001167@mb-fm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72710 In article <20020116103031.06527.00000038@mb-fo.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: >>And since Elrond was the primary chronicler, there you have it... > >Actually, it was a loremaster form Gondolin. > Hi Russ... I do not doubt you for a second. Can you please give me further info on the loremaster relationship? The reason I ask is that the article I quoted from in another thread goes into great detail in pointing out Elrond's (tale-orship?) point of view with regard to Feanor and his line. It cites several examples of bias and explains most of them. The article is "Historical Bias in the Making of the Silmarillion", by Alex Lewis, published in the Proceedings of the JRR Tolkien Centenary Conference, 1992. Now of course this is almost 10 years old and may be very dated...so I would greatly appreciate further input. Thank you very much. Ed PS If a sampling of quotes are needed from Lewis' work I would be glad to provide them. ###### Lines: 73 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Jan 2002 17:56:23 GMT References: <20020116105449.05154.00001167@mb-fm.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020116125623.01538.00000018@mb-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72862 In article <20020116105449.05154.00001167@mb-fm.aol.com>, ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) writes: >In article <20020116103031.06527.00000038@mb-fo.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(Russ) >writes: > >>>And since Elrond was the primary chronicler, there you have it... >> >>Actually, it was a loremaster form Gondolin. >> > >Hi Russ... >I do not doubt you for a second. Can you please give me further info on the >loremaster relationship? The reason I ask is that the article I quoted from >in >another thread goes into great detail in pointing out Elrond's (tale-orship?) >point of view with regard to Feanor and his line. It cites several examples >of >bias and explains most of them. The article is "Historical Bias in the >Making >of the Silmarillion", by Alex Lewis, published in the Proceedings of the JRR >Tolkien Centenary Conference, 1992. Now of course this is almost 10 years >old >and may be very dated...so I would greatly appreciate further input. Thank >you >very much. "Though Feanor after the days of his first youth took no more active part in linguistic lore and enquiry, he is credited by tradition with the foundation of a school of Lambengolmor or 'Loremasters of Tongues' to carry on this work. This continued in existence among the Noldor from Aman and the Wars of Beleriand, and it survived indeed to return to Eressea. Of the School the most prominent member after the founder was, or still is, Pengolodh, an Elf of mixed Sindarin and Noldorin ancestry, born in Nevrast, who lived in Gondolin from its foundation. He wrote both in Sindarin and in Quenya. He was one of the survivors of the destruction of Gondolin, from which he rescued a few ancient writings, and some of his own copies, compilations, and commentaries. It is due to this, and his prodigious memory, that much of the knowledge of the Elder Days was preserved...Pendolodh is said to have remained in Middle-earth until far into the Second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while to have dwelt among the Dwarves of Casarrondo (Khazad-dum). But when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador, he left Middle-earth, the last of the Lembengolmor, and sailed to Eressea, where maybe he still abides." (War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, pp 396-7) Essentially, Pengolodh's works (both his own and those he compiled) were the Silmarillion texts. The 'in-story' explanation of how these texts came to use changed over the years. Earlier, the explanation was that a British mariner named Aelfwine accidentally washed up on the shores of Tol Eressea and met Pengolodh who told his all this information. Later, the role was given to Bilbo who is said to have made the translations from the Elvish while staying at Rivendell. Since according to Quendi and Eldar quoted above, Pengolodh apparently left Middle-earth prior to the founding of Rivendell, he must have left copies of his works behind in Lindon where they eventually found their way to Rivendell for Bilbo to translate. In either event, the source of the material was Pengolodh and not Elrond. In the 'Bilbo' conception, Bilbo translated the works Pengolodh wrote himself as well as those other works Pengolodh had saved from the destruction of Gondolin. This does not necessarily change the thesis of the article you are referring to. Pengolodh was a half Sinda half Noldo from Gondolin. As a Sinda, he would be no fan of the Feanoreans (for the First two Kinslayings) and as a Gondolindrim he was probably among those refugees attacked at the Havens by the Feanoreans at the Third Kinslaying. Thus the argument can still be made for bias in the texts - just that bias should be attributed to Pengolodh and not Elrond. Russ ###### Lines: 67 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: ejen34@aol.com (Ejen34) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Jan 2002 18:39:24 GMT References: <20020116125623.01538.00000018@mb-fi.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Message-ID: <20020116133924.22158.00000225@mb-mr.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72865 In article <20020116125623.01538.00000018@mb-fi.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: >"Though Feanor after the days of his first youth took no more active part in >linguistic lore and enquiry, he is credited by tradition with the foundation >of >a school of Lambengolmor or 'Loremasters of Tongues' to carry on this work. >This continued in existence among the Noldor from Aman and the Wars of >Beleriand, and it survived indeed to return to Eressea. Of the School the >most >prominent member after the founder was, or still is, Pengolodh, an Elf of >mixed >Sindarin and Noldorin ancestry, born in Nevrast, who lived in Gondolin from >its >foundation. He wrote both in Sindarin and in Quenya. He was one of the >survivors of the destruction of Gondolin, from which he rescued a few ancient >writings, and some of his own copies, compilations, and commentaries. It is >due to this, and his prodigious memory, that much of the knowledge of the >Elder >Days was preserved...Pendolodh is said to have remained in Middle-earth until >far into the Second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while >to have dwelt among the Dwarves of Casarrondo (Khazad-dum). But when the >shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador, he left Middle-earth, the last of the >Lembengolmor, and sailed to Eressea, where maybe he still abides." (War of >the >Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, pp 396-7) > >Essentially, Pengolodh's works (both his own and those he compiled) were the >Silmarillion texts. The 'in-story' explanation of how these texts came to >use >changed over the years. Earlier, the explanation was that a British mariner >named Aelfwine accidentally washed up on the shores of Tol Eressea and met >Pengolodh who told his all this information. Later, the role was given to >Bilbo who is said to have made the translations from the Elvish while staying >at Rivendell. Since according to Quendi and Eldar quoted above, Pengolodh >apparently left Middle-earth prior to the founding of Rivendell, he must have >left copies of his works behind in Lindon where they eventually found their >way >to Rivendell for Bilbo to translate. > >In either event, the source of the material was Pengolodh and not Elrond. In >the 'Bilbo' conception, Bilbo translated the works Pengolodh wrote himself as >well as those other works Pengolodh had saved from the destruction of >Gondolin. > >This does not necessarily change the thesis of the article you are referring >to. Pengolodh was a half Sinda half Noldo from Gondolin. As a Sinda, he >would >be no fan of the Feanoreans (for the First two Kinslayings) and as a >Gondolindrim he was probably among those refugees attacked at the Havens by >the >Feanoreans at the Third Kinslaying. Thus the argument can still be made for >bias in the texts - just that bias should be attributed to Pengolodh and not >Elrond. > >Russ > > > Hi Russ... This is a HUGE help...thank you very much for taking the time to quote the War of the Jewels...It of course makes the material in the article suspect. Again thank you very much. Ed ###### From: "Yama" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 03:36:29 +0200 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rak054.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 1011231276 9198 130.231.6.54 (17 Jan 2002 01:34:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2002 01:34:36 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72957 "Bryan Maloney" wrote in message news:a21d2o$7am$6@news01.cit.cornell.edu... > Flame of the West wrote in > news:3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com: > > I assume this is a parody since it implies you are rooting *against* > > Aragorn and indeed all the good guys in LotR. > > No, I'm rooting against the idea of any sort of inherent "right to rule" > based upon having some sort of "pure" bloodline. Not being a racist, I'm > kind of funny that way. I don't remember anywhere in Tolkien's works where it is implied that Numenorians had some sort of divine right to rule all other humans of M-E. In fact Dunedain first came to M-E as helpers and teachers, and only later began to seek domination over peoples of M-E. Aragorn became ruler of large parts of the Middle-Earth, not because he had some sort of "right" to do that, but because he was (more or less) legal heir to kingdom(s) which just happened to be biggest dog in the neighbourhood. ###### From: "Bryan J. Maloney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:57:35 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 38 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on potato.bti.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.bti.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011286654 1125 132.236.86.124 (17 Jan 2002 16:57:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2002 16:57:34 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!lackawana.kippona.com!paradoxa.ogoense.net!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72904 In article , "Yama" wrote: > "Bryan Maloney" wrote in message > news:a21d2o$7am$6@news01.cit.cornell.edu... > > Flame of the West wrote in > > news:3C4398BA.D09F64C2@erols.com: > > > I assume this is a parody since it implies you are rooting *against* > > > Aragorn and indeed all the good guys in LotR. > > > > No, I'm rooting against the idea of any sort of inherent "right to > > rule" > > based upon having some sort of "pure" bloodline. Not being a racist, > > I'm > > kind of funny that way. > > I don't remember anywhere in Tolkien's works where it is implied that > Numenorians had some sort of divine right to rule all other humans of > M-E. > > In fact Dunedain first came to M-E as helpers and teachers, and only > later > began to seek domination over peoples of M-E. > Aragorn became ruler of large parts of the Middle-Earth, not because he > had > some sort of "right" to do that, but because he was (more or less) legal > heir to kingdom(s) which just happened to be biggest dog in the > neighbourhood. > > Yeah, that's the Dunedain propaganda line, but did anybody ever ask the Dunlendings how THEY wanted to live? NOOOOOOOOOOO. Damned poncey elves and their Dunedain errand boys. -- "A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right." ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:19:15 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com> <915989d9.0201160649.7a4f60f4@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.3f X-Server-Date: 22 Jan 2002 06:20:26 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73956 Constantine wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > >> > The story of Feanor and his Sons, is really the story >> >of how Morgoth can twist and corrupt anything and anybody. >> >> I agree to an extent. And yet Feanor was not compelled to act as he >> did. His own pride and willfulness were his tragic flaw. I did not write the first two lines you attribute to me. In this case, no harm is done since I _did_ write the lines agreeing with them. But please be careful in future with attributions. It is not pleasant to have someone "quote" me saying things that I strongly disagree with, as has happened before. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: const32@hotmail.com (Constantine) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion: Distinctly anti-Feanorian Date: 22 Jan 2002 15:33:55 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <915989d9.0201221533.55309ec0@posting.google.com> References: <20020113154328.02371.00001269@mb-cc.aol.com> <3C428538.8C623B3D@erols.com> <2a4798d.0201141307.57168e91@posting.google.com> <915989d9.0201160649.7a4f60f4@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.251.0.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011742436 27957 127.0.0.1 (22 Jan 2002 23:33:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2002 23:33:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:73895 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message > > I did not write the first two lines you attribute to me. > > In this case, no harm is done since I _did_ write the lines agreeing > with them. But please be careful in future with attributions. It is > not pleasant to have someone "quote" me saying things that I > strongly disagree with, as has happened before. Sorry about that. I thought the double indentation on the first two lines would make it clear that I was referring to your reply to these lines, but obviously it didn't. I'll be more careful next time. Constantine