From: uncle monty Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Date: 8 Jan 2002 21:35:57 GMT Organization: aerowalk Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: is03.fas.harvard.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70802 In the William Loos FAQ, which I was just browsing for fun, the author gives a couple of hints from LOTR that justify the equation of Arda with our own earth. (The length of the year (appendix D), and the shape of the lands having been changed between then and now (prologue).) But he leaves out what settled the question for me when I first read the books: doesn't Tolkien mention the name hobbits give the constellation we know as The Plough/The Big Dipper in Ursa Major? I think somewhere he also mentions someone's belt, corresponding, I guess, to our Orion's Belt. ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Jan 2002 22:25:35 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Message-ID: <20020108172535.08127.00000242@mb-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!proxad.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70711 In article , uncle monty writes: > >In the William Loos FAQ, which I was just browsing for fun, the author gives >a >couple of hints from LOTR that justify the equation of Arda with our own >earth. (The length of the year (appendix D), and the shape of the lands >having >been changed between then and now (prologue).) But he leaves out what settled >the question for me when I first read the books: doesn't Tolkien mention the >name hobbits give the constellation we know as The Plough/The Big Dipper in >Ursa Major? I think somewhere he also mentions someone's belt, corresponding, >I guess, to our Orion's Belt. > I assume you're looking for in-story proof. Tolkien explicitly stated in Letters that Arda (more specifically Imbar) is Earth. (Arda is technically the Solar System) Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 18:36:14 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20020108172535.08127.00000242@mb-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.a8 X-Server-Date: 8 Jan 2002 23:36:05 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71068 Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >(Arda is technically the Solar System) Huh? The index to /The Silmarillion/ says "'The Realm', name of the Earth as the Kingdom of Manwë". Page 19 (in "Ainulindalë") says "But the other Ainur looked upon this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the Elves call Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced. ..." Where do you see Arda defined as the Solar System? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Jan 2002 02:03:59 GMT References: <20020108172535.08127.00000242@mb-fi.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Message-ID: <20020108210359.05453.00000240@mb-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70728 In article <20020108172535.08127.00000242@mb-fi.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: >I assume you're looking for in-story proof. Tolkien explicitly stated in >Letters that Arda (more specifically Imbar) is Earth. (Arda is technically >the >Solar System) Actually in the Athrabeth....sorry. Russ ###### Lines: 22 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Jan 2002 02:03:59 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70732 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>(Arda is technically the Solar System) > >Huh? > >The index to /The Silmarillion/ says "'The Realm', name of the Earth >as the Kingdom of Manwë". > >Page 19 (in "Ainulindalë") says "But the other Ainur looked upon >this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the >Elves call Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced. ..." > >Where do you see Arda defined as the Solar System? "Physically Arda was what we should call the solar system" Athrabeth, note 3. The word for Earth is Imbar, meaning 'the habitation.' Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:56:44 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.8c X-Server-Date: 9 Jan 2002 02:56:29 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71207 Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>(Arda is technically the Solar System) >> >>Huh? >> >>The index to /The Silmarillion/ says "'The Realm', name of the Earth >>as the Kingdom of Manwë". >> >>Page 19 (in "Ainulindalë") says "But the other Ainur looked upon >>this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the >>Elves call Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced. ..." >> >>Where do you see Arda defined as the Solar System? > >"Physically Arda was what we should call the solar system" Athrabeth, note 3. > >The word for Earth is Imbar, meaning 'the habitation.' Well, if it comes down to a quote _and_ a definition from /The Silmarillion/, versus a definition from Athrabeth, I think I'll vote for the former. Obviously there's no One True Answer about what is canonical. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3C3C5951.1B0E1E33@hanneng.com> From: pawn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 39 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:53:05 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.193.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1010588092 64.229.193.34 (Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:54:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:54:52 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70419 I see you're insulting as well as can't admit when you're wrong. Stan Brown wrote: > Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >In article , > >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > > >>Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>>(Arda is technically the Solar System) > >> > >>Huh? > >> > >>The index to /The Silmarillion/ says "'The Realm', name of the Earth > >>as the Kingdom of Manwë". > >> > >>Page 19 (in "Ainulindalë") says "But the other Ainur looked upon > >>this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the > >>Elves call Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced. ..." > >> > >>Where do you see Arda defined as the Solar System? > > > >"Physically Arda was what we should call the solar system" Athrabeth, note 3. > > > >The word for Earth is Imbar, meaning 'the habitation.' > > Well, if it comes down to a quote _and_ a definition from /The > Silmarillion/, versus a definition from Athrabeth, I think I'll vote > for the former. Obviously there's no One True Answer about what is > canonical. > > -- > Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA > http://oakroadsystems.com > Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) > Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html > Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm > more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Jan 2002 16:33:01 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Message-ID: <20020109113301.23507.00000390@mb-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70696 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >>>Where do you see Arda defined as the Solar System? >> >>"Physically Arda was what we should call the solar system" Athrabeth, note >3. >> >>The word for Earth is Imbar, meaning 'the habitation.' > >Well, if it comes down to a quote _and_ a definition from /The >Silmarillion/, versus a definition from Athrabeth, I think I'll vote >for the former. Obviously there's no One True Answer about what is >canonical. How do you define _The Silmarillion_? According to HOME, Tolkien himself wrote that the Athrabeth was to be included in the Appendix to the final Silmarillion. Why does CJRT's editorial decision to exclude the Athrabeth get higher weight over JRRT's stated intention to *include * it? The Athrabeth was a finished text, with extensive notes and commentary by Tolkien himself and was written later (IIRC) than the Ainluindale text. Tolkien in fact cited the Athrabeth in other texts, thus attesting to its value. IMO, the Athrabeth cite gets higher weight. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:59:21 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> <3C3C5951.1B0E1E33@hanneng.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.8e X-Server-Date: 9 Jan 2002 17:59:04 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71526 pawn wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I see you're insulting as well as can't admit when you're wrong. > You considered that insulting, when I said that no one could claim to have the only truth on this matter? That's not insulting. _This_ is insulting: Bite me, you little twerp. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com/ "I don't use a pen. I write with a goose quill dipped in venom." -- Clifton Webb ("Waldo Lydecker") in /Laura/ (1944) ###### Message-ID: <3C3C8913.BA5FA49B@hanneng.com> From: pawn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> <3C3C5951.1B0E1E33@hanneng.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:16:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.193.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1010600316 64.229.193.34 (Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:18:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:18:36 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71352 Ooops. Sorry, I didn't realize you ere an idiot. My mistake. Stan Brown wrote: > pawn wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I see you're insulting as well as can't admit when you're wrong. > > > > You considered that insulting, when I said that no one could claim > to have the only truth on this matter? That's not insulting. > > _This_ is insulting: > > Bite me, you little twerp. > > -- > Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA > http://oakroadsystems.com/ > "I don't use a pen. I write with a goose quill dipped in > venom." -- Clifton Webb ("Waldo Lydecker") in /Laura/ (1944) ###### From: "Eric San Juan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> <3C3C5951.1B0E1E33@hanneng.com> <3C3C8913.BA5FA49B@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 22:15:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.39.122.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.nj.home.com 1010614552 68.39.122.12 (Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:15:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:15:52 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.nj.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71467 "pawn" wrote in message news:3C3C8913.BA5FA49B@hanneng.com... > Stan Brown wrote: > > > pawn wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >I see you're insulting as well as can't admit when you're wrong. > > > > You considered that insulting, when I said that no one could claim > > to have the only truth on this matter? That's not insulting. > > > > _This_ is insulting: > > > > Bite me, you little twerp. > > Ooops. Sorry, I didn't realize you ere an idiot. > > My mistake. Every time I see one of your posts, I wonder why I have yet to killfile you. Each time the question comes up, because each time I feel as if precious few moments of my life are wasted when I see your posts, all utterly devoid of content and lacking anything at all meaningful. Maybe it's about time I stop wondering why and just do it, eh? ###### Message-ID: <3C3DC285.13FAE46C@hanneng.com> From: pawn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> <3C3C5951.1B0E1E33@hanneng.com> <3C3C8913.BA5FA49B@hanneng.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:34:13 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.193.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1010680611 64.229.193.34 (Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:36:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:36:51 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71351 It's a free Arda my friend. Eric San Juan wrote: > "pawn" wrote in message > news:3C3C8913.BA5FA49B@hanneng.com... > > Stan Brown wrote: > > > > > pawn wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >I see you're insulting as well as can't admit when you're wrong. > > > > > > You considered that insulting, when I said that no one could claim > > > to have the only truth on this matter? That's not insulting. > > > > > > _This_ is insulting: > > > > > > Bite me, you little twerp. > > > > Ooops. Sorry, I didn't realize you ere an idiot. > > > > My mistake. > > Every time I see one of your posts, I wonder why I have yet to killfile > you. Each time the question comes up, because each time I feel as if > precious few moments of my life are wasted when I see your posts, all > utterly devoid of content and lacking anything at all meaningful. Maybe > it's about time I stop wondering why and just do it, eh? ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arda/Earth FAQ entry Date: 10 Jan 2002 18:34:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <20020108210359.05453.00000241@mb-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010716456 2446 127.0.0.1 (11 Jan 2002 02:34:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 2002 02:34:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71740 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >In article , > >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > > >>Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>>(Arda is technically the Solar System) > >> > >>Huh? > >> > >>The index to /The Silmarillion/ says "'The Realm', name of the Earth > >>as the Kingdom of Manwë". > >> > >>Page 19 (in "Ainulindalë") says "But the other Ainur looked upon > >>this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the > >>Elves call Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced. ..." > >> > >>Where do you see Arda defined as the Solar System? > > > >"Physically Arda was what we should call the solar system" Athrabeth, note 3. > > > >The word for Earth is Imbar, meaning 'the habitation.' > > Well, if it comes down to a quote _and_ a definition from /The > Silmarillion/, versus a definition from Athrabeth, I think I'll vote > for the former. Obviously there's no One True Answer about what is > canonical. Ilu = everything (universe, God, spirits etc). Eä = Universe (the natural created universe, does not include God, spirits). Arda = Solar System (properly used), or the Earth (loosely used)(the word "Arda" means a defined region). Ambar, Imbar = the Earth - Means the "Habitation" or "The Habitation, "Imbar" may be a syncope of "I Ambar". Endor = Middle-earth (the continent), it is a part of Earth not "the Earth". Tar-Elenion