From: "Zach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:04:01 -0500 Lines: 8 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: s9.dial3.hnj.nac.net Message-ID: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> X-Trace: nntp2.nac.net 1010264650 s9.dial3.hnj.nac.net (5 Jan 2002 16:04:10 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp2.nac.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69946 After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems to be little change. Thoughts? ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Jan 2002 21:53:08 GMT References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Message-ID: <20020105165308.12139.00003078@mb-fs.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70032 >After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the >book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation >of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change >very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half >millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems >to be little change. Thoughts? > If we say that necessity is the mother of invention, and there has been only a small amount of inventions, then there must not be necessary to advance technologically. ###### From: Rich Carreiro Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 05 Jan 2002 17:02:52 -0500 Organization: Animato, Ltd. Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: news@animato.arlington.ma.us User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.211.222 X-Trace: 1010268200 senator-bedfellow.mit.edu 3945 24.147.211.222 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69970 "Zach" writes: > After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the > book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation > of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change > very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half > millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems > to be little change. Thoughts? Compare the Britain of the Roman occupation to the Britain of, say, 1300AD. There was change, and it was that of decay. When I toured Hadrian's Wall back in 1999, I was struck by the fact that British craftsmanship pre-400AD was better than anything after the Romans left and before 1200-1300AD. See Vindolanda! -- Rich Carreiro rlcarr@animato.arlington.ma.us ###### From: "Rickbert" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 22:03:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.181.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1010268214 24.218.181.77 (Sat, 05 Jan 2002 17:03:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 17:03:34 EST Organization: ATT Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!65.96.0.182!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70146 Middle Earth is set in a world that has been declining from a Golden Age, so to speak. And that 2,500 years is just about the length of the Third Age between the defeat of Sauron by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and the finding of the Ring by Gollum, if memory serves. I think there's been closer to 10,000 years since the first actual days and nights of the Sun and Moon, and of course much longer than that in the forming of the World than Is. Considering Tolkien grew up in an England that had a history of past ages of Glory of great powers (Rome had once held everything south of Hadrian's wall, etc.) and so has much of the world. I suspect it seems odder to us in the U.S. to think of history that way. But ya, pick any thousand years since the development of agriculture, or any technology described in LoTR or the Silmarillion, and you'd be right to say it seldom lasted that long unchanged on earth. "Zach" wrote in message news:3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net... > After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the > book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation > of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change > very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half > millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems > to be little change. Thoughts? > > ###### From: OrionCA Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Organization: Starship Enterprises Message-ID: <2i0f3ukr19qt56bq9digr5uff644ai68p7@4ax.com> References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 23:00:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.205.167.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1010271609 24.205.167.26 (Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:00:09 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:00:09 PST X-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:00:10 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70111 On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:04:01 -0500, "Zach" wrote: >After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the >book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation >of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change >very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half >millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems >to be little change. Thoughts? > Yep. If the elves had ever invented Compounding Interest they could have bought Sauron off and avoided all the messy parts. >:) Also, you see that technology DEGENERATED between the end of the First and Third Ages. The Dunedain could make marvelous swords that never rusted, never degraded, and could cut through a thought. The Walls of Minas Tirath were made of a substance that was virtually impenetrable, yet the art of making it had vanished hundreds of years before the War of the Ring. Gondor could build 300' tall statues yet they never thought of building Roman Roads (very special construction yet very easy, required lots of labor, and they last forever. Some roads built before Christ's birth are still in use and as good as the day they were built) across their kingdoms. Gondor had nothing like that, and might have been able to win their wars and enrich their nation if they had ever built anything remotely as good as these. I always found it interesting how Gandalf was so good with fireworks yet never considered the possibility of combining these with metalworking to build cannon. There's a bit here and there how the orcs and goblins used explosives but nothing of military significance. Partly it may be that Tolkien was not into technology and somewhat considered it a perversion of the "natural order". See how he presented the factories of Sauruman built in the Shire at the end of the Third Age, and how the hobbits threw these down in disgust after the revolt. Middle Earth was "magic" and seemed curiously immune to the lure of indoor flush toilets and electric lighting. -- It only _looks_ like a little stick. Until you see it up close. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 5 Jan 2002 23:09:39 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1010272179 7910 128.214.205.27 (5 Jan 2002 23:09:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2002 23:09:39 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70062 Zach wrote: > After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the > book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation > of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change > very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half > millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems > to be little change. Thoughts? Pipe weed. -- ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 11:09:25 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.34 X-Server-Date: 6 Jan 2002 16:09:48 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70296 Zach wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the >book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation >of the Ring) Yes it does. The One Ring was forged in about II.1600, and the Second Age ended in II.3441. The War of the Ring happened in III.3018-9, about 3018+3441-1600 = 4859 years after the forging of the One. > that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change >very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half >millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems >to be little change. Thoughts? A great deal of that change happened in the past 250 years. (We used to think that the Middle Ages were completely static; but important technological advances like the horse collar were made then.) If you look at people in 1700 CE and people in 1 CE, their lives were not so very different. Sanitation was probably better in the Rome of Augustus than in the London of William III. That said, a gap of 2500 years (your figure) or 4800+ years (correct figure), with no progress, is awfully hard to swallow. Technology tends to accelerate, and the people of the Second Age were already in roughly the position of medieval Europe. With their great wealth, giving a large leisure class, the Númenóreans at least should have begun moving toward their own industrial revolution. For that matter, there really wasn't much change in daily life in the Second Age, so we can add 1600 years and put the figure at 6400+. That long ago in the real world I think the latest in technology was flint knives made by chipping rocks. I think Tolkien's chronology is sometimes hard to swallow. He has the Barad-dûr take six hundred years to build, and that just doesn't seem reasonable to me. What did Sauron do, assemble dust chips with tweezers? Tolkien writes of a seven-year siege of the Barad-dûr, also hard to accept. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Jan 2002 16:41:22 GMT References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Message-ID: <20020106114122.19213.00002407@mb-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70236 In article <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net>, "Zach" writes: >After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the >book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation >of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change >very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half >millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems >to be little change. Thoughts? > It was expected that great change would have to await the ascendancy of Man. The whole Elvish psyche is basically one of preservation not one of advancement. Russ ###### Sender: Geza Giedke From: geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> <20020106114122.19213.00002407@mb-fo.aol.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970613; i586 Linux 2.0.36] NNTP-Posting-Host: fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Message-ID: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> Date: 6 Jan 2002 18:13:48 +0100 X-Trace: 6 Jan 2002 18:13:48 +0100, fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!sia.uibk.ac.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70190 Russ wrote: > In article <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net>, "Zach" > >After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the > >book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the > >creation > >of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change > >very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half > >millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems > >to be little change. Thoughts? > It was expected that great change would have to await the ascendancy of Man. > The whole Elvish psyche is basically one of preservation not one of > advancement. that is true in the Third Age and for the Silvan Elves (probably) but do not forget Feanor, the greatest craftsman and inventor of Middle-Earth, nor Rumil, Daeron, and, of course, Celebrimbor and the Smiths of Eregion But the Elves that we encounter in LotR are already at the end of their span: worn out by countless millenia in Arda, no longer procreating, fading, left far behind by the flowing streams of time. regards -- Geza Giedke Institut fuer Theoretische Physik, Universitaet Innsbruck Technikerstr. 25, Tel.: +43-512-5076335, Fax +43-512-5072919 priv: K.-Innerebner-Str. 42, A-6020 Innsbruck, +4306641950005 ###### From: Andrew Reeves Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 11:31:10 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Lines: 54 Message-ID: <3C3889DE.171F29AD@mail.utexas.edu> References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs6668112-120.austin.rr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 1010338623 12917 66.68.112.120 (6 Jan 2002 17:37:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:37:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70218 Rich Carreiro wrote: > Compare the Britain of the Roman occupation to the Britain of, > say, 1300AD. There was change, and it was that of decay. > > When I toured Hadrian's Wall back in 1999, I was struck > by the fact that British craftsmanship pre-400AD was > better than anything after the Romans left and before > 1200-1300AD. See Vindolanda! > I am now going to come to a defense of Anglo-Saxon England (which in itself is quite appropriate for a Tolkien newsgroup). To judge the level of a civilization's sophistication by it's building in stone is not always entirely accurate, and this is especially true of Anglo-Saxon England. The Saxons did not build in stone because they had no need to build in stone, nor did they have the tax base of the entire Roman Empire to build things like Hadrian's wall. If you think that the English were decayed, you should examine Offa's Dyke, an earthwork that was, when built, fifty feet high and stretching from one end of Wales to another. A feet such as this took a *lot* of organizational skill. Are you aware that, with the exception of Iceland after its conversion, England unlike the rest of the continent, had a large body of written secular literature (Of which Tolkien was quite fond, btw), as well as a fairly competent administration with the exception of under Ethelred the Unready. Indeed, Anglo-Saxon England had the most broad-ranging and well-trained infantry levy of any Medieval State save for the Rhomanoi (Byzanitne) Empire. This infantry levy was able to beat back the Norsemen (again, with the exception of under Ethelred), and came within a hair of beating the Norman knights. And even thought the Danegeld was instituted for a one-time emergency, it's also the first example of efficient European taxation after the collapse of Rome outside of the Rhomanoi state. Indeed the Romans may have built some honking big stoneworks, but they left a crippling system of bureacracy and stagnation that it was well to have been done away with. Nor did the Romans ever figure out how to make a deep-cutting plow. And going back to the level of Anglo-Saxon civilization, just look at any of their illuminated manuscripts or miniatures. No, it is not representational art, but this is because of religious belief rather than lack of skill. Indeed, it must be consistently noted that the Saxons were quite sophisticated on the artistic, administrative, and military levels. They simply had neither the financial resources nor the need for stone. Andrew Reeves > > -- > Rich Carreiro rlcarr@animato.arlington.ma.us ###### Lines: 20 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Jan 2002 22:00:22 GMT References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Message-ID: <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70705 In article <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at>, geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at writes: >> It was expected that great change would have to await the ascendancy of >Man. >> The whole Elvish psyche is basically one of preservation not one of >> advancement. > >that is true in the Third Age and for the Silvan Elves (probably) >but do not forget Feanor, the greatest craftsman and inventor of >Middle-Earth, nor Rumil, Daeron, and, of course, Celebrimbor and the >Smiths of Eregion The latter is precisely an example of this. The Mirdain forged the Rings to keep things in stasis. To ctop change. >But the Elves that we encounter in LotR are already at the end of their >span: worn out by countless millenia in Arda, no longer >procreating, fading, left far behind by the flowing streams of time. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:18:34 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.72 X-Server-Date: 7 Jan 2002 03:18:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71240 Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The latter is precisely an example of this. The Mirdain forged the Rings to >keep things in stasis. To ctop change. But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in over 3400 years. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 7 Jan 2002 03:59:52 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1010375992 13460 128.214.205.27 (7 Jan 2002 03:59:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2002 03:59:52 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70930 Stan Brown wrote: > Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>The latter is precisely an example of this. The Mirdain forged the Rings to >>keep things in stasis. To ctop change. > But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in > over 3400 years. It didn't? ###### Sender: Geza Giedke From: geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970613; i586 Linux 2.0.36] NNTP-Posting-Host: fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Message-ID: <3c399ed0$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> Date: 7 Jan 2002 14:12:48 +0100 X-Trace: 7 Jan 2002 14:12:48 +0100, fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.online.be!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!sia.uibk.ac.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70401 Russ wrote: > In article <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at>, geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at writes: > > > It was expected that great change would have to await the ascendancy > > > of Man. The whole Elvish psyche is basically one of preservation not > > > one of advancement. > >that is true in the Third Age and for the Silvan Elves (probably) > >but do not forget Feanor, the greatest craftsman and inventor of > >Middle-Earth, nor Rumil, Daeron, and, of course, Celebrimbor and the > >Smiths of Eregion > The latter is precisely an example of this. The Mirdain forged the Rings to > keep things in stasis. To stop change. true, but they developed a new technology to do so, much as "we" have developed ever better recording devices. but of course I don't deny the fundamentally *conservative* worldview of Elves and Numenoreans; with the Dwarfs I am not so sure: they seem to actually regret the loss of technology and try to advance it where possible, and - even in their fading years - think about endeavour and (re-)expansion. As for the Elves: if you yourself (or maybe your grandpa) had seen paradise with your own eyes and you had the certainty of (a) immortality, (b) your race's fading "here" and (c) eternal bliss for you and all your kindred in the West - would you strive to design better tillage procedures or medical devices? regards -- Geza Giedke ###### Sender: Geza Giedke From: geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970613; i586 Linux 2.0.36] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Message-ID: <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> Date: 7 Jan 2002 14:19:59 +0100 X-Trace: 7 Jan 2002 14:19:59 +0100, fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!sia.uibk.ac.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70400 Tamim wrote: > Stan Brown wrote: > > Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>The latter is precisely an example of this. > >>The Mirdain forged the Rings to > >>keep things in stasis. To ctop change. > > But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in > > over 3400 years. > It didn't? IIRC it did: they did steadily improve their shipbuilding and shipcraft as well as their weapons - at least that's what I remember from Sil and UT But then one has to take into account that Numenor initially had access to a (nearly) ultimate source of knowledge (the Elves of Eressea) and was successively cut off later on: so its development patter can be expected to be different from ours. On the other hand: haven't there been high cultures on Earth which displayed very little progress throughout many centuries, even millenia? Chinese? Egyptian? Roman? At least in Rome the "good old days" were quite fashionable with some (like Cato) weren't they? regards Geza -- Geza Giedke ###### From: Emilie Karr Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:24:51 -0500 Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3C39CBD3.A80CB4C2@law.harvard.edu> References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-38395.law.harvard.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70629 geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at wrote: > On the other hand: haven't there been high cultures on Earth which > displayed very little progress throughout many centuries, even millenia? > Chinese? Egyptian? Roman? At least in Rome the "good old days" were quite > fashionable with some (like Cato) weren't they? Iffen I recall my ancient history rightly, Egypt holds the record for the most static civilization - although dynasties rose and fell, the basic culture stayed unbelievably similar for 3000 years. Egyptian art can be difficult to date, for a piece from 2500 BC can be stylistically identical to one from 1000 BC. I don't know if there's any solid theories on why Egypt stayed just so for so long. As far as Middle-earth goes, I think the elves probably are responsible - such eternal beings wouldn't be expected to have the drive for creation that shorter-lived people would. They wouldn't need to create legacies if they were going to be around anyway. (It also might be a function of scholarly thinking at Tolkien's time - it's a relatively recent concept in anthropology, anyway, that ancient, 'primitive' cultures do in fact develop; there's a long-standing impression that, say, the Bushman of the Kalahari, if they had no contact with the outside world, would be living an 'unspoiled' life exactly like hunter/gatherers of millennia past, when in fact they are of course human beings with a dynamic, developing culture just like everyone else...) emilie ###### From: Rich Carreiro Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 07 Jan 2002 13:17:59 -0500 Organization: Animato, Ltd. Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> <3C3889DE.171F29AD@mail.utexas.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: news@animato.arlington.ma.us User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.211.222 X-Trace: 1010430602 senator-bedfellow.mit.edu 3942 24.147.211.222 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70540 Andrew Reeves writes: > Rich Carreiro wrote: > > > Compare the Britain of the Roman occupation to the Britain of, > > say, 1300AD. There was change, and it was that of decay. > > > > When I toured Hadrian's Wall back in 1999, I was struck > > by the fact that British craftsmanship pre-400AD was > > better than anything after the Romans left and before > > 1200-1300AD. See Vindolanda! > > > > I am now going to come to a defense of Anglo-Saxon England (which in itself is > quite appropriate for a Tolkien newsgroup). To judge the level of a > civilization's sophistication by it's building in stone is not always entirely I'm not talking about judging stonework. I'm talking about smaller artifacts, like brooches, shoes, combs, plates, etc. -- Rich Carreiro rlcarr@animato.arlington.ma.us ###### Lines: 22 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Jan 2002 18:20:22 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020107132022.15114.00000119@mb-ba.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70684 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>The latter is precisely an example of this. The Mirdain forged the Rings to >>keep things in stasis. To ctop change. > >But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in >over 3400 years. > Well, they did apparently have some. Their ship-building was apparently pretty good. A point is made how low the Faithful were compared to the Numenoreans. That tells me the Numenoreans had developed significatly. Nevertheless, I agree that technological development was noticibly slow. However, IMO, this is primarily because these were all still times of Elvish ascendancy. In other words, because the Elves were ascendant, Man too was limited. It was only when Man became ascendant that our race could advance unfettered. Russ ###### From: ed Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:57:33 +0000 Organization: Team Rodent Approved: Apparently Message-ID: References: <20020107132022.15114.00000119@mb-ba.aol.com> Reply-To: edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1010433336 nnrp-01:26370 NO-IDENT equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!equus.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71140 The noble mcresq@aol.com (Russ) spake on the day of 07 Jan 2002 18:20:22 GMT: >Nevertheless, I agree that technological development was noticibly slow. >However, IMO, this is primarily because these were all still times of Elvish >ascendancy. In other words, because the Elves were ascendant, Man too was >limited. It was only when Man became ascendant that our race could advance >unfettered. Bastard Elves. "Let's hunt some pointy ears" ed Just goes to show, Ar-Pharazon was right!!! -- edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk | Dragons Rescued | _//// http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/ | Maidens Slain | o_/o /// For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, | Quests P.O.A. | __\ ///__ Science-Fiction and other stuff | | <*> ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:29:24 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.d8 X-Server-Date: 7 Jan 2002 21:32:54 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71261 geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Stan Brown wrote: >> > But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in >> > over 3400 years. > >IIRC it did: they did steadily improve their shipbuilding and shipcraft as >well as their weapons Good point. I agree with you that "no technological advance" is putting it too strongly. On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? >On the other hand: haven't there been high cultures on Earth which >displayed very little progress throughout many centuries, even millenia? >Chinese? Egyptian? Roman? At least in Rome the "good old days" were quite >fashionable with some (like Cato) weren't they? 2500 years ago is 1500 BCE. Think whether there is _any_ civilized culture that is the same today as it was then. Egypt was relatively stagnant, but that ended when Alexandria was founded in the fourth century BCE. Constantinople was politically unchanging over 1150 years, but architecture and the arts did advance, as well as technology like "Greek fire" and silk production. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:30:45 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20020107132022.15114.00000119@mb-ba.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.d8 X-Server-Date: 7 Jan 2002 21:34:15 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71212 Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Nevertheless, I agree that technological development was noticibly slow. >However, IMO, this is primarily because these were all still times of Elvish >ascendancy. In other words, because the Elves were ascendant, Man too was >limited. It was only when Man became ascendant that our race could advance >unfettered. Wouldn't it work the other way? Wouldn't the Númenóreans first try to emulate Elvish culture and technology, then to surpass it as they became estranged? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Sender: Geza Giedke From: geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970613; i586 Linux 2.0.36] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Message-ID: <3c3a1904$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> Date: 7 Jan 2002 22:54:12 +0100 X-Trace: 7 Jan 2002 22:54:12 +0100, fe-c705.uibk.ac.at Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!isdnet!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!sia.uibk.ac.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70344 Stan Brown wrote: > geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >> Stan Brown wrote: > >> > But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in > >> > over 3400 years. > > > >IIRC it did: they did steadily improve their shipbuilding and shipcraft as > >well as their weapons > Good point. I agree with you that "no technological advance" is > putting it too strongly. > On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why > no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? > > >On the other hand: haven't there been high cultures on Earth which > >displayed very little progress throughout many centuries, even millenia? > >Chinese? Egyptian? Roman? > 2500 years ago is 1500 BCE. Think whether there is _any_ civilized > culture that is the same today as it was then. it is clear that the inhabitants of Middle-Earth had a different frame of mind; as someone has remarked, having the Elves around may have been one reason for this: (almost) perfect, immortal beings that take care of (most) business so much better than mere man were just not motivating progress and invention (and on the other side, the resp. Dark Lord did certainly roast everyone who had independent thoughts alive and fed him to his orcs - hence no progress there, either, except for what Morgoth or Gorthaur could come up with themselves. Having magic may also have hindered technology. But this rationalizing is not very convincing to me. Rather, i tend to see this as one of the characteristics in which the inhabitants of ME which they differ from us - similar to the existence of fantasy creatures and immortals, a world led by backward-looking, but good-natured conservatives is quite outlandish; uncanny, you might say. regards Geza ###### Lines: 25 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Jan 2002 01:36:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020107203644.02172.00000098@mb-dh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70702 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Nevertheless, I agree that technological development was noticibly slow. >>However, IMO, this is primarily because these were all still times of Elvish >>ascendancy. In other words, because the Elves were ascendant, Man too was >>limited. It was only when Man became ascendant that our race could advance >>unfettered. > >Wouldn't it work the other way? Wouldn't the Númenóreans first try >to emulate Elvish culture and technology, then to surpass it as >they became estranged? > I think it's a much more powerful effect. When Elves were ascendant Arda itself was stagnant (the Elves might say 'well preserved' but I have human prejudices). In other words, I do not think Man *could* have advanced at such a speed until they were ascendant. Consider for a second a comparison. We are told how when the Numenoreans came to Middle-earth, the regular Men there saw them almost as gods. That sounds awefully similar to the Spaniards coming to the New World. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:15:46 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <3c3a1904$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.60 X-Server-Date: 8 Jan 2002 04:15:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.simtel.ru!Simtel.RU!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71091 geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >it is clear that the inhabitants of Middle-Earth had a different frame of >mind; as someone has remarked, having the Elves around may have been one >reason for this: (almost) perfect, immortal beings Middle-earth, yes. But Númenor would think just the opposite. Perceiving the Elves as partisans of the hated Valar, the King's party would logically have tried to outdo the Elves. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: David Marc Nieporent Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Organization: Orioles Warehouse: http://www.oobleck.com/orioles References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:18:09 CST X-Trace: sv3-8CNa0A3DrKmwSd4AQoKUjXnA7WAAQf5hcdNlIMXGlnpcVua7AyNhoJcADR1FewevtRnTaFPvNsXtSJ1!ttcLXRcJOSBDz986GqAjBBtydSWzb1vE6QoBRrhz/DifnusIsSVum7+NbXd2iN4JIkDdvoiCxuqJ!c346aA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 09:18:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!nieporen Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70438 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at wrote in >>> Stan Brown wrote: >>> > But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance in >>> > over 3400 years. >>IIRC it did: they did steadily improve their shipbuilding and shipcraft as >>well as their weapons >Good point. I agree with you that "no technological advance" is >putting it too strongly. >On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why >no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? >>On the other hand: haven't there been high cultures on Earth which >>displayed very little progress throughout many centuries, even millenia? >>Chinese? Egyptian? Roman? At least in Rome the "good old days" were quite >>fashionable with some (like Cato) weren't they? >2500 years ago is 1500 BCE. No, it's 500 BCE, unless one of us has a broken abacus. > Think whether there is _any_ civilized >culture that is the same today as it was then. But you're biasing the question by starting now and counting backwards. Start three centuries ago, before the Industrial Revolution, and count backwards. I won't say that there was no progress at all, but life was pretty stagnant. You plop a human from 1000 BCE into the world of 1500, and he'd recognize it right away. --------------------------------------------- David M. Nieporent nieporen@alumni.princeton.edu ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 18:59:20 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.a8 X-Server-Date: 8 Jan 2002 23:59:11 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71199 David Marc Nieporent wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > >>2500 years ago is 1500 BCE. > >No, it's 500 BCE, unless one of us has a broken abacus. Well spotted! Obviously there's a typo there; I think I meant to type 3500 not 2500, since the Second Age was roughly 3500 years. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 10 Jan 2002 00:38:15 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 83 Message-ID: <6un0znhz88.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1010619495 1585 10.0.3.2 (9 Jan 2002 23:38:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2002 23:38:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71322 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why > no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? No motivation for it. To address your examples: Gunpowder: Is useless without an gun, and guns were inferior (military (fire rate [1]) and civilian (quiet on the hunt[2])) to bows, until breechloaders came around (about 1860). Inferior such as: - more expensive to make, time and toolwise - heavier to carry around - can not make ammunition from the next forrest - easier to damage - problems when ammunition damp (OK, wet bowstrings in rain...) - noise and recoil when using - slow to reload The only advantage was easier to use, less training needed. Nice for 16th century and later mass armies of draftees. Not exactly important for Numenoreans who cherished personal achievement, let alone elves with centuries or millenia of training behind them. [1] vastly. Both the US revolutionaries against the Brits and Napoleon would have preferred archers, if there had still been enough makers for the needed volume of bows and arrows, and enough trained users. [2] guns did spread first in the wilderness, after rifled barrels appeared, by untrained people living off the land and needing defense, where surviving without elaborate training (distracts from actual job such as trapping or farming) is important. Moveable type: Is an refinement of printing, to reduce typesetting time (vs cutting an master). Printing itsself takes more investment (press) than writing (pen). Its only real advantage is mass production of prints, and less errors in copies (once setting vs each writing). So only really an advantage if you want to spread books. In Minas Tirith or Rivendell or Lorien there was library access for those interested in texts and records (see Gandalf). Elsewhere illiteracy (did the Breelanders or Rohirrim read?) would have made books no priority at all. Hobbits were too anti-technology for this. Steam Power: Originated in mining, pumps for getting rid of water. So that would make it Dwarf territory. And we know how secretive they are about anything going on in their realms. No steam pumps are seen in Moria, as far as we know. But we did not see that much, and even that long after it became Orc-infested (and any delicate machinery destroyed). Second application was town sewage pumping (I have seen such, over 200 year old ones, running), where it replaced animal powered devices. Minas Tirith has an enviable position with direct downhill to Anduin. Anywhere else has no big enough population to worry about this. Third was steam boats and later trains. Steam boats only beat sail boats on reliability (not wind depandant). That is good for industrialised trade, but who does much such trade in ME in the third age? Trains need cities to connect, which leaves Minas Tirith Railroad Co sort of without an destination. > Egypt was relatively stagnant, but that ended when Alexandria was > founded in the fourth century BCE. Was that not the result of external influence? IIRC there was some larger military action against Egypt around 700 BCE, that replaced the government. Even so that would be centuries before change came. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:26:46 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <6un0znhz88.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.58 X-Server-Date: 10 Jan 2002 05:26:29 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71518 Neil Franklin wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >> >> On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why >> no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? > >No motivation for it. To address your examples: I snipped most of what you wrote, because I have only a brief comment: Everything you say would also explain why none of those inventions was ever developed in the Real World. Since those inventions _were_ developed in the Real World, the explanations must not be right. Okay, I'll add one thing more: >Third was steam boats and later trains. Steam boats only beat sail >boats on reliability (not wind depandant). That is good for >industrialised trade, but who does much such trade in ME in the third >age? Trains need cities to connect, which leaves Minas Tirith Railroad >Co sort of without an destination. Well, of course there was no Minas Tirith in the Second Age -- not until nearly the end of it, anyway. But as for ships, don't you think steam power might have been slightly useful to the Númenóreans? That's whom I was talking about in my article, though your examples all seem to be about people in Middle-earth, mostly Elves and Dwarves. I don't have any problem with accepting a slow pace of cultural change among them; but Tolkien even tells us how changeable Men are. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 10 Jan 2002 22:15:35 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 93 Message-ID: <6ulmf5hpqg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <6un0znhz88.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1010697335 510 10.0.3.2 (10 Jan 2002 21:15:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2002 21:15:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71528 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > Neil Franklin wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >> > >> On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why > >> no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? > > > >No motivation for it. To address your examples: > > comment: Everything you say would also explain why none of those > inventions was ever developed in the Real World. Since those > inventions _were_ developed in the Real World, the explanations must > not be right. I will re-add this bit: ------ Gunpowder: The only advantage was easier to use, less training needed. ------ So basically lack of time was the original driving force to develop. We do not see much lack of time in ME. We do see it in the real world where drafting ever larger amount of soldiers was decisive. Addition of something I forgot yesterday: many cases of progress are driven by an need to change to survive. Farming came from too littly food after population growth, riding horses from need of faster attacks, iron usage from need of more effective weapons, coal firing from running out of wood (used for fire and construction) driving people into the mines. So looking out for the "driver" is a good strategy. > Okay, I'll add one thing more: > > >Third was steam boats and later trains. Steam boats only beat sail > >boats on reliability (not wind depandant). That is good for > >industrialised trade, but who does much such trade in ME in the third > >age? Trains need cities to connect, which leaves Minas Tirith Railroad > >Co sort of without an destination. > > But as for ships, don't you think steam power might have been > slightly useful to the Númenóreans? But did they have enough trading to make reliable timing of transport important? And competitors they need to beat in timeliness? IIRC (it has been a while) Silm and UT describe mainly discovery and military outings, all of them to non-developed lands. Oh, and an history addition, I only thought of in bed: the ancient greeks alreay knew steam power and never made much of it. They had an functioning steam turbine with integrated boiler (iron ball with steam jets around the circumfence. They also had some altar where making the fire on it heated water to steam and via some mechanism that opened the altar doors. So why did they not develop engines from this? I assume that horses were still cheap (feed out on the fields, not expensive stable feeding in large cities, and there was enough space for them. And slave labour was also still available. So here space and labour restrictions were the driver to make steam power happen. > That's whom I was talking about in my article, though your examples > all seem to be about people in Middle-earth, As is in the Subject: line. I missed that you had changed to Numenor. > Dwarves. I don't have any problem with accepting a slow pace of > cultural change among them; but Tolkien even tells us how changeable > Men are. Capable, but not driven? Capability only gives the ability to handle problems, but if there is no problem posing itsself, it will not be used. Complicated technology requires complicated problems to drive its development. Limited resources seem to be the most effective driver. And at least ME was fairly empty. Numenor I can not remember its state in this. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 9 Jan 2002 21:14:32 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.19.54.36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010639672 5089 127.0.0.1 (10 Jan 2002 05:14:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2002 05:14:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71707 "Zach" wrote in message news:<3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net>... > After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the > book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation > of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change > very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half > millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems > to be little change. Thoughts? Of course, in modern fantasy it's an accepted feature of the genre that no matter how many millenia your created world has existed for, you don't have to make them technologically progress at all (this can hardly even be called a cliche, it's used so often it's more like a foundation of the genre). I wonder if this is due to Tolkien? -Chris ###### From: rozniy@yahoo.com (rozniy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 10 Jan 2002 05:25:22 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 161.139.72.227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010669123 15132 127.0.0.1 (10 Jan 2002 13:25:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:25:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71725 kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:... > "Zach" wrote in message news:<3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net>... > > After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in the > > book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since the creation > > of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle Earth seemed to change > > very little. I mean, look at the state of our own world two and a half > > millenia ago and compare it to today, and yet in the book/movie there seems > > to be little change. Thoughts? > > Of course, in modern fantasy it's an accepted feature of the genre > that no matter how many millenia your created world has existed for, > you don't have to make them technologically progress at all (this can > hardly even be called a cliche, it's used so often it's more like a > foundation of the genre). I wonder if this is due to Tolkien? > > -Chris I seem to remember a line from the "Akallabeth" in the Silmarillion, saying of the Numenoreans that their craft and skills were great, "and they built engines". Engines? I'd say they were just beginning to industrialize when Iluvatar wiped them off the map. The Faithful would then associate mechanical engines and devices with King Ar-Pharazon's arrogance. This would slow down tech advances, yes? And think of how they built the tower of Orthanc? I think the Numenoreans did have machine tools, but the tech was lost with the Downfall, and during the Kinstrife, when the Great Library of Osgiliath (there MUST have been one I think) was destroyed. Much of the capital was damaged badly by Castamir's assault. ###### From: cjgb2001@yahoo.ca (Chris) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:25:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <6un0znhz88.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.142.113.41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010697954 27964 127.0.0.1 (10 Jan 2002 21:25:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2002 21:25:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71747 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:<6un0znhz88.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why > > no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? The human population of the Westlands of Middle Earth was smaller than that of Europe or the ancient Middle East, and there were fewer centres of human culture. Thus, less creativity overall. I don't know that anyone has a fix on the population of Gondor, but estimates seem to run about 1.5 to 3 million or so. That's the only stable human state in Middle Earth. Medieval Europe had, what, 50 million? contained several independent, competing cultures and was in contact, directly or indirectly, with several other important centres of culture. And, as has been pointed out, the Dunedain dominated areas of Middle Earth were under the spell of the Elves, who possessed a inimitable "technology" superior to anything Men could come with. Suppose that Earth made contact with aliens of unimaginably advanced technological culture. Would we continue to pursue our researches in semiconductors and biotechnology, or would we just use "off-the-shelf" alien technologies without understanding them or being able to replicate them? Then suppose the aliens leave. We might be left with the remnants of their superb technology, with our own traditions of research and progress left in ruins - not to mention our cultural self-confidence. We might well go through a few millenniums of technological stagnation, becoming fixated on the idea of decline from a Golden Age rather than of advance toward technological Utopia. Essentially, that's Middle Earth's predicament. Cheers, Chris ###### From: Bryan Maloney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 15 Jan 2002 14:13:33 GMT Organization: Flarg Wa Zoo Lines: 33 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com) Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <20020106170022.05453.00000012@mb-mq.aol.com> <3c39a07f$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011104013 7510 24.58.37.210 (15 Jan 2002 14:13:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2002 14:13:33 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72521 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in news:MPG.16a3dd3c3031b7a598ccee@news.mindspring.com: > geza.giedke@uibk.ac.at wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>> Stan Brown wrote: >>> > But that doesn't explain why Númenor had no technological advance >>> > in over 3400 years. >> >>IIRC it did: they did steadily improve their shipbuilding and shipcraft >>as well as their weapons > > Good point. I agree with you that "no technological advance" is > putting it too strongly. > > On the other hand, they started from about a medieval position. Why > no gunpowder, no moveable type, no steam power in all that time? Medievalism is an erroneous standpoint for Middle Earth. Tolkien said that Gondor resembled old Egypt except for being more puritanical. -- "Why then did the passengers on the plane that went down near Pittsburgh decide to resist the hijackers and prevent them from completing their mission? Because they knew: their relatives had told them by cell phone that the World Trade Center had already been attacked by hijacked planes. They were armed with final awareness of the nature of the evil they faced. So armed, they could act. So armed, they did." --Time Magazine ###### From: Bryan Maloney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 15 Jan 2002 14:17:00 GMT Organization: Flarg Wa Zoo Lines: 46 Sender: bjm10@cornell.invalid (on syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com) Message-ID: References: <3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: syr-24-58-37-210.twcny.rr.com X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1011104220 7510 24.58.37.210 (15 Jan 2002 14:17:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2002 14:17:00 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72525 rozniy@yahoo.com (rozniy) wrote in news:d5376c74.0201100525.3eaa7a82@posting.google.com: > kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message > news:... >> "Zach" wrote in message >> news:<3c376a4a$1_1@nntp2.nac.net>... >> > After watching the movie a second time, it struck me (moreso than in >> > the book, because LotR doesn't put the actual number of years since >> > the creation of the Ring) that in 2,500 years, things in Middle >> > Earth seemed to change very little. I mean, look at the state of >> > our own world two and a half millenia ago and compare it to today, >> > and yet in the book/movie there seems to be little change. >> > Thoughts? >> >> Of course, in modern fantasy it's an accepted feature of the genre >> that no matter how many millenia your created world has existed for, >> you don't have to make them technologically progress at all (this can >> hardly even be called a cliche, it's used so often it's more like a >> foundation of the genre). I wonder if this is due to Tolkien? >> >> -Chris > > I seem to remember a line from the "Akallabeth" in the Silmarillion, > saying of the Numenoreans that their craft and skills were great, "and > they built engines". > > Engines? "Engine" does NOT ONLY REFER TO MODERN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES. An "engine" could be a catapult. (And the term "siege engine" could refer to catapults, ballistae, trebuchets, etc.) An "engine" could be a water wheel of the type used by the ancient Egyptians. -- "Why then did the passengers on the plane that went down near Pittsburgh decide to resist the hijackers and prevent them from completing their mission? Because they knew: their relatives had told them by cell phone that the World Trade Center had already been attacked by hijacked planes. They were armed with final awareness of the nature of the evil they faced. So armed, they could act. So armed, they did." --Time Magazine ###### From: brauchfu@pcocd2.fm.intel.com (Brian Rauchfuss - PCD) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 15 Jan 2002 16:44:20 GMT Organization: Intel Corp Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <6un0znhz88.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6ulmf5hpqg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: fhi6000.fm.intel.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uunet!sea.uu.net!news.or.intel.com!brauchfu Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72463 In article <6ulmf5hpqg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >------ >Gunpowder: > >The only advantage was easier to use, less training needed. >------ It is also *very* good at scaring horses, making it a natural anti-cavalry weapon. Not very interesting to people fighting orcs, though. (Note that Tolkien mentions that orcs later invented a number of machines - maybe *they* needed a low-training weapon good for scaring horses!) Brian ###### From: tonyz@eskimo.com (Tony Zbaraschuk) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Static cultural development in Middle Earth? Date: 15 Jan 2002 18:49:09 GMT Organization: Eskimo North http://www.eskimo.com/ (800) 246-6874 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3c3885cc$1@sia.uibk.ac.at> <6ulmf5hpqg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: eskimo.com X-Trace: eskinews.eskimo.com 1011120549 6599 204.122.16.13 (15 Jan 2002 18:49:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eskimo.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2002 18:49:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.eskimo.com!eskimo.com!tonyz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:72655 In article , Brian Rauchfuss - PCD wrote: >In article <6ulmf5hpqg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >Neil Franklin wrote: >>The only advantage was easier to use, less training needed. > >It is also *very* good at scaring horses, making it a natural >anti-cavalry weapon. Not very interesting to people fighting >orcs, though. It also uses an independent source of energy -- the gunpowder will still go off even if your muscles are tired out. Tony Z -- "The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning; His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air, And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning." The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman