From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 12:59:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1010062759 216.175.100.236 (Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:59:19 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:59:19 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:59:21 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68994 I had accepted Conrad's argument that the sanctity of marriage would prevent any wedded couple in Tolkien from being forever separated. But in fact when I looked again at the B&L story in the Silmarillion, I found that Luthien is given the chance to dump Beren and live as a carefree single girl in paradise -- "she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end, forgetting all griefs...thither Beren could not come. For it is not permitted to the Valar to withold death from him." Here, the inability of the Valar to revoke the gift of Iluvatar to Men takes precedence over Luthien's marriage vow. Of course, she chooses the other path, but forsaking Beren was given as a option under the judgement of Manwe, a judgement guided by the will of Eru in Manwe's "inmost thought". So it's not necessarily so impossible that Nimloth could have married Dior for her mortal life, and then parted from him at her death to remain in Mandos while he travelled beyond the walls of Arda. I'm a little disappointed by this -- I liked the idea of Tolkien as a no-divorce romantic. But it don't seem to be so. So, if Beren remaining mortal is more important than his remaining married, how exactly did this almighty prohibition against revoking the gift of death get swept aside in Tuor's case, when Tuor only had Ulmo on his side? No idea -- Tolkien seems awfully casual about Tuor's mortality, and very strict about Beren's. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:34:47 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.1c X-Server-Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:34:53 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69181 Dylan Bryan-Dolman wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I had accepted Conrad's argument that the sanctity of marriage would prevent >any wedded couple in Tolkien from being forever separated. But in fact when >I looked again at the B&L story in the Silmarillion, I found that Luthien is >given the chance to dump Beren and live as a carefree single girl in >paradise -- "she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to >dwell until the world's end, forgetting all griefs...thither Beren could not >come. For it is not permitted to the Valar to withold death from him." I don't see any inconsistency. When Beren dies, he is no longer in Middle-earth because Men's souls don't go to Mandos (or at least don't stay with him). But Lúthien, unlike a mortal widow who might expect her own soul to follow her husband's in time, would _know_ that she would never see Beren again because Elves are bound to Arda. She begged to have her fate joined to his so that this might not happen. >Here, the inability of the Valar to revoke the gift of Iluvatar to Men takes >precedence over Luthien's marriage vow. I would not express it that way. Lúthien's nature was what it was, and Beren's was what it was. To change Beren's nature was beyond the power of the Valar: it's not that they decided it was better to separate the pair, it's that they had no power to keep them together by keeping Beren in Arda. So they offered Lúthien a choice of the two possibilities that _were_ within their power. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:03:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1010070200 216.175.100.236 (Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:03:20 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:03:20 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:03:22 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69003 Stan Brown wrote: > I don't see any inconsistency. The only inconsistency is between the treatment of Beren's mortality and the treatment of Tuor's. > Lúthien, unlike a mortal widow who might expect her own soul to > follow her husband's in time, would _know_ that she would never > see Beren again because Elves are bound to Arda. Sure. And Manwe allowed her to become mortal in order to remain with him. But if she'd been okay with their being separated after death, Manwe would've been okay with it too -- that's one of the choices he gave her under Eru's instruction. >> Here, the inability of the Valar to revoke the gift of Iluvatar to Men >> takes precedence over Luthien's marriage vow. > > I would not express it that way. Lúthien's nature was what it was, > and Beren's was what it was. To change Beren's nature was beyond > the power of the Valar: But to set aside her marriage vows was within their power, and they were willing to do it. So they might have done it again for Nimloth. Which means that Dior was probably mortal without the option of becoming immortal -- just like all the offspring of Elves or Peredhil who choose mortality. The choice of the Peredhil is passed down the Elvish line, but not down the Human line. Tuor is still a mysterious exception. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:53:22 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c38.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69108 >I'm a little disappointed by this -- I liked the idea of Tolkien as a >no-divorce romantic. But it don't seem to be so. in jewish and christian marriages its always -till death do us part- once a spouse has died the other party is released from all obligations including fidelity ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Date: 3 Jan 2002 17:53:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010109218 4863 127.0.0.1 (4 Jan 2002 01:53:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:53:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69754 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:... > Stan Brown wrote: > > I don't see any inconsistency. > > The only inconsistency is between the treatment of Beren's mortality and the > treatment of Tuor's. > > > Lúthien, unlike a mortal widow who might expect her own soul to > > follow her husband's in time, would _know_ that she would never > > see Beren again because Elves are bound to Arda. > > Sure. And Manwe allowed her to become mortal in order to remain with him. > But if she'd been okay with their being separated after death, Manwe > would've been okay with it too -- that's one of the choices he gave her > under Eru's instruction. > > >> Here, the inability of the Valar to revoke the gift of Iluvatar to Men > >> takes precedence over Luthien's marriage vow. > > > > I would not express it that way. Lúthien's nature was what it was, > > and Beren's was what it was. To change Beren's nature was beyond > > the power of the Valar: > > But to set aside her marriage vows was within their power, and they were > willing to do it. So they might have done it again for Nimloth. Which > means that Dior was probably mortal without the option of becoming > immortal -- just like all the offspring of Elves or Peredhil who choose > mortality. The choice of the Peredhil is passed down the Elvish line, but > not down the Human line. > While that is what happened, I dont think that it is the 'law'. Those in the 'mortal' line were simply not given a Choice, but that does not mean that Manwe could not have given them a Choice had he so desired (if you get what I am trying to say). > Tuor is still a mysterious exception. He balances out Luthien's choice. Tar-Elenion ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 20:10:38 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <3C363061.8AB961F0@DAMNSPAMmsn.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!lackawana.kippona.com!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c87.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69711 In article <3C363061.8AB961F0@DAMNSPAMmsn.com>, Jeff George wrote: >rand mair fheal wrote: >> >> >I'm a little disappointed by this -- I liked the idea of Tolkien as a >> >no-divorce romantic. But it don't seem to be so. >> >> in jewish and christian marriages its always -till death do us part- >> once a spouse has died the other party is released from all obligations >> including fidelity > >What if they just act dead all the time? dont marry a republican next time ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:58:35 -0800 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3C3B5D7B.EB12422D@erols.com> References: Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ0eA9E2y2Oat7dM7klsFIjPpBY6SwxajgitCBA66QYwrkKADQOhke+ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2002 22:56:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70351 Dylan Bryan-Dolman made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > So, if Beren remaining mortal is more important than his remaining married, Beren and Lúthien were married when they first died? Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C3B5D7B.EB12422D@erols.com> Subject: Re: Manwe a divorce lawyer. What's next, elven pre-nups? Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 00:41:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1010536908 12.79.24.193 (Wed, 09 Jan 2002 00:41:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 00:41:48 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70716 "Ermanna" wrote in message news:3C3B5D7B.EB12422D@erols.com... > Beren and Lúthien were married when they first died? "Therefore at the last he [Thingol] yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Luthien before the throne of her father." Silm, Of Beren and Luthien