From: "Christopher Basken" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:04:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.146.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1009825485 24.147.146.80 (Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:04:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:04:45 EST Organization: ATT Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.91.0.34!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68178 I seem to remember somewhere Elrond being referred to as Elrond Half-Elven, but I can't find it. And the Hobbit says: "In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief." Which could, of course, mean he's the leader of a bunch of half-elves, or he is the head half-elf. What would that make Arwen? -- Chris_Basken________________ www.animalkingdoms.com ###### From: "William Hanson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:17:08 -0600 Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.190.82.44 Message-ID: <3c30c4ba$1_2@corp.newsgroups.com> X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1009829050 207.190.82.44 (31 Dec 2001 14:04:10 -0600) X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!corp.newsgroups.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68348 Christopher Basken wrote in message news:hF2Y7.11121$zX1.9636996@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > I seem to remember somewhere Elrond being referred to as Elrond Half-Elven, > but I can't find it. > Elrond was a mutt: his father was Earendil, and his mother was Elwing. Earendil was half-Elven, son of Idril (Elf) and Tuor (Man). Elwing was a mix of Maia, Elf, and Man: her grandfather was Beren (Man), who wed Luthien (half Elf, half Maia). -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:02:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1009832552 216.175.100.218 (Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:02:32 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:02:32 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:02:32 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68298 Elrond is sometimes called Elrond Half-Elven, but half-elves in the D&D sense don't exist in Middle-Earth. When an elf-maid marries a man, either he joins her in immortality (Earendil, Tuor) or she him in death (Luthien, Arwen). There were three such pairings in the elder days, and at the last of them the Valar (greater angels who rule the lands east of the sea) established the rule that their children should be allowed to choose for themselves which fate they will follow. Elrond and Elros were the first two to be given this choice. Elrond became an elf and lived for millenia, while his brother Elros became human and established the line of Numenorean kings -- the same kings who were Aragorn's ancestors. When Arwen made her choice at the end of the Third Age, the two long-sundered kindreds were rejoined. Actually, those Numenoreans are the closest things to D&D "half-elves" in that Tolkien included in his work. Even after many generations of dilution of their elven blood, the kings of Gondor and the Dunadain, descendants of the Numenoreans, still had lifespans about three times as long as those of mortal men -- at the end of The Return of the King Aragorn says to Gandalf, "When those who are now in the wombs of women have lived and grown old, then I, too, will grow old." But he is considered fully a Man and Elrond fully an Elf. ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:15:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1009833326 216.175.100.218 (Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:15:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:15:26 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:15:26 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68304 Dylan Bryan-Dolman wrote: > the Valar (greater angels who rule the lands east of the sea) oops...East = Bad, West = Good. Sorry. ###### From: cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 31 Dec 2001 13:50:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.131.241.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009835413 8479 127.0.0.1 (31 Dec 2001 21:50:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 2001 21:50:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68430 "Christopher Basken" wrote in message news:... > I seem to remember somewhere Elrond being referred to as Elrond Half-Elven, > but I can't find it. > > And the Hobbit says: > > "In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves > and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house > was their chief." > > Which could, of course, mean he's the leader of a bunch of half-elves, or he > is the head half-elf. > > What would that make Arwen? IMHO 3/4 of an elf, because her mother was fully Elvish (being the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn) Love, Cirya ###### From: Brian C. Ross Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:37:42 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68457 On 31 Dec 2001 13:50:13 -0800, cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: >> What would that make Arwen? > >IMHO 3/4 of an elf, because her mother was fully Elvish (being the >daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn) > >Love, Cirya I had posted this earlier this week , buried as a follow up , in another thread. I repost here (snipped a tad) for your convenience. Generation 1 Barahir/Emeldir(human/human) and Thigol/Melian (elf/maia) Generation 2 Beren (son of Barahir) / Luthien (daughter of Thingol)(human/halfelven half maia) Huor/Rian (human/human) Turgon/Elenwe (elf/elf) Generation 3 Dior(son of Beren)/Nimloth(50%human25%elf25%maia/elf) Tuor(son of Huor)/Idril(daughter of Turgon)(human/elf) Generation 4 Elwing(daughter of Dior)/Earendil(son of Tuor) (62.5%elf 12.5%maia 25% human/ half human halfelven) Generation 6 Elrond and Elros (sons of Earendil and Elwing) are thusly shown to be: 6.25% maia , 56.25% elven , and 37.5% human. Generation 7 Arwen,Elladan, and Elrohir (children of Elrond and Celebrian) 3.125% maia , 18.75% human , and 78.125% elven. ###### From: cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 31 Dec 2001 23:20:12 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.131.241.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009869613 18731 127.0.0.1 (1 Jan 2002 07:20:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2002 07:20:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68429 Brian C. Ross wrote in message news:... > On 31 Dec 2001 13:50:13 -0800, cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: > > > >> What would that make Arwen? > > > >IMHO 3/4 of an elf, because her mother was fully Elvish (being the > >daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn) > > > >Love, Cirya > > > I had posted this earlier this week , buried as a follow up , in > another thread. I repost here (snipped a tad) for your convenience. > > Generation 1 > Barahir/Emeldir(human/human) and Thigol/Melian (elf/maia) > > Generation 2 > Beren (son of Barahir) / Luthien (daughter of Thingol)(human/halfelven > half maia) > Huor/Rian (human/human) > Turgon/Elenwe (elf/elf) > > Generation 3 > Dior(son of Beren)/Nimloth(50%human25%elf25%maia/elf) > Tuor(son of Huor)/Idril(daughter of Turgon)(human/elf) > > Generation 4 > Elwing(daughter of Dior)/Earendil(son of Tuor) > (62.5%elf 12.5%maia 25% human/ half human halfelven) > > Generation 6 > Elrond and Elros (sons of Earendil and Elwing) > are thusly shown to be: 6.25% maia , 56.25% elven , and 37.5% human. > > Generation 7 > Arwen,Elladan, and Elrohir (children of Elrond and Celebrian) > 3.125% maia , 18.75% human , and 78.125% elven. You're far more precise than I was, and very much right! Love, Cirya ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:30:07 -0800 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3C317390.20EC1A0E@erols.com> References: Reply-To: jsolinasNoSpam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbUZpqHB/nQYA5aYQa8dTw3v6POwai4v3+dBCyYtZvdIvP5senRXOmm X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2002 05:29:08 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68490 Dylan Bryan-Dolman wrote: > Even after many generations of dilution > of their elven blood, the kings of Gondor and the Dunadain, descendants of > the Numenoreans, still had lifespans about three times as long as those of > mortal men -- at the end of The Return of the King Aragorn says to Gandalf, > "When those who are now in the wombs of women have lived and grown old, then > I, too, will grow old." IIRC all the Númenoreans had lengthened lifespans, not just the line of the Kings. Hence it had nothing to do with Elven blood. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C317390.20EC1A0E@erols.com> Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:21:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.164 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1009884105 12.79.56.164 (Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:21:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:21:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68338 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C317390.20EC1A0E@erols.com... > IIRC all the Númenoreans had lengthened lifespans, not just > the line of the Kings. Hence it had nothing to do with Elven > blood. Yup, they got to Numenor and suddenly everyone started living three times as long. Not a genetic issue. ###### From: Stefan Bruhn Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:21:55 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 0x3ef38cb7.virnxx1.adsl.tele.dk (62.243.140.183) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1009894905 23815577 62.243.140.183 (16 [37649]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!0x3ef38cb7.virnxx1.adsl.tele.DK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68273 On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:54:28 -0000, "Paul Kellaway" wrote: >http://theonering.net/movie/char/elrond.html Ok, so he chose to be elven (I knew that) and his brother Elros chose to be human. What were they before this? Elves or humans? -- Mvh. Stefan Website: http://www.3x7.dk/ | http://ghashul.dk/ "I demand the right to keep and arm bears" "A computer without Windows, is like a fish without a bicycle" ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 1 Jan 2002 11:05:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009911940 30320 127.0.0.1 (1 Jan 2002 19:05:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2002 19:05:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68803 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:... > Elrond is sometimes called Elrond Half-Elven, but half-elves in the D&D > sense don't exist in Middle-Earth. When an elf-maid marries a man, either > he joins her in immortality (Earendil, Tuor) or she him in death (Luthien, > Arwen). Earendil and Elwing were both Peredhil ('half-elves'), they were granted a Choice. Arwen was not an Elf. She was a 'half-elf' who was granted a Choice. Mithrellas was an Elf who married a Man (Imrazor the Numenorean, ancestor of Imrahil). She did not join him in mortality. Luthien is the only Elf who was allowed to become 'mortal'. > > There were three such pairings in the elder days, and at the last of them > the Valar (greater angels who rule the lands east of the sea) established > the rule that their children should be allowed to choose for themselves > which fate they will follow. Elrond and Elros were the first two to be > given this choice. Earendil and Elwing were the first Peredhil granted a Choice. Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:06:23 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.98 X-Server-Date: 1 Jan 2002 21:06:37 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68868 Tar-Elenion wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Luthien is the only Elf who was allowed to become 'mortal'. Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would count as Elves. But she did have the choice. (Arwen also had a choice, but I suppose you're not counting her as an Elf in the first place.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:07:54 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.98 X-Server-Date: 1 Jan 2002 21:08:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68818 Stefan Bruhn wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:54:28 -0000, "Paul Kellaway" > wrote: > >>http://theonering.net/movie/char/elrond.html > >Ok, so he chose to be elven (I knew that) and his brother Elros chose to >be human. >What were they before this? Elves or humans? Neither, really. They were not old enough at the time of Morgoth's defeat for it to matter. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:45:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1009921558 216.175.100.236 (Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:45:58 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:45:58 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:45:59 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68546 Tar-Elenion wrote: > Earendil and Elwing were the first Peredhil granted a Choice. Mm...don't think so. The Valar pretty much laid down the law when Earendil defied them by coming to Valar. His immortality was his commuted death sentence for setting foot in Aman, and her only choice was to share whatever punishment was in store for him when she leapt after him onto the shores of Aman. I'm curious about Earendil's immortality though -- he doesn't actually join the Eldar, right? He's just a human being whose mortal life is extended until the end of time, but who will die *out* of the world with other Men (leaving Elwing behind?) when the end comes. Or am I quite wrong? The Silmarillion does say that Tuor *alone* among Men is counted one of the Eldar. > Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. True. But it is rather more than a "vice" to use the pretext of liberty's defense as an excuse to destroy liberty yourself. ###### From: "AC" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:51:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68688 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:q6qY7.6206$%C1.608828@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > Earendil and Elwing were the first Peredhil granted a Choice. > I'm curious about Earendil's immortality though -- he doesn't actually join > the Eldar, right? He's just a human being whose mortal life is extended > until the end of time, but who will die *out* of the world with other Men > (leaving Elwing behind?) when the end comes. Or am I quite wrong? The > Silmarillion does say that Tuor *alone* among Men is counted one of the > Eldar. As I recall, Earendil did become one of the Eldar, though his heart was with Men. -- AaronC ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 1 Jan 2002 22:31:14 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1009924274 8061 128.214.205.14 (1 Jan 2002 22:31:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2002 22:31:14 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news.ebone.net!news1.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68738 In alt.fan.tolkien Dylan Bryan-Dolman wrote: > I'm curious about Earendil's immortality though -- he doesn't actually join > the Eldar, right? He's just a human being whose mortal life is extended > until the end of time, but who will die *out* of the world with other Men > (leaving Elwing behind?) when the end comes. He was never a man like Tuor but an half-elf. ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 19:52:32 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-387.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68806 On 31 Dec 2001 23:20:12 -0800, cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: |> Generation 7 |> Arwen,Elladan, and Elrohir (children of Elrond and Celebrian) |> 3.125% maia , 18.75% human , and 78.125% elven. | |You're far more precise than I was, and very much right! Which means, of course, that the books are in error. Arwen Halfelven, indeed. Should be Arwen 78.125%elven! ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 1 Jan 2002 17:17:43 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009934263 5258 127.0.0.1 (2 Jan 2002 01:17:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2002 01:17:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68802 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Tar-Elenion wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Luthien is the only Elf who was allowed to become 'mortal'. > > Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to > choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would > count as Elves. But she did have the choice. No. Luthien was an "absolute exception" (Letter 153). The same Letter suggests that Tuor was accounted among Elves in fate, but does not say he actually had a Choice in the matter. Idril is never said to have had a Choice (unless you can provide a citation). You are thinking of Earendil and Elwing (Earendil told Elwing to choose for them both). But neither of them were Elves, they were Peredhil. > > (Arwen also had a choice, but I suppose you're not counting her as > an Elf in the first place.) Arwen was not an Elf. She was Peredhel and specifically granted a Choice. Tar-Elenion ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 03:18:13 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o215.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1009934314 5627 212.205.252.215 (2 Jan 2002 01:18:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 01:18:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68566 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.169beeddd18b229f98cc84@news.mindspring.com... > > Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to > choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would > count as Elves. But she did have the choice. That is, of course, completely wrong. Aris Katsaris ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 1 Jan 2002 17:32:49 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009935170 5554 127.0.0.1 (2 Jan 2002 01:32:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2002 01:32:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68792 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > Earendil and Elwing were the first Peredhil granted a Choice. > > Mm...don't think so. Your choice. But they were. > The Valar pretty much laid down the law when Earendil > defied them by coming to Valar. Correct. The 'law' was that anyone with any mortal blood whatsoever was mortal unless granted other Doom (see HoME 5). > His immortality was his commuted death > sentence for setting foot in Aman, and her only choice was to share whatever > punishment was in store for him when she leapt after him onto the shores of > Aman. No. Manwe grantd them 'other Doom' and allowed them to choose which kindred they wanted to be accounted among. Earendil allowed Elwing to make the Choice for them both. Hence they were the first Peredhil granted a Choice. > > I'm curious about Earendil's immortality though -- he doesn't actually join > the Eldar, right? He shares their fate. > He's just a human being whose mortal life is extended > until the end of time, but who will die *out* of the world with other Men > (leaving Elwing behind?) when the end comes. He is just a Half-elf who is accounted among the Elves and shares their fate. Elwing is not an Elf. She is also of the Half-elven. > Or am I quite wrong? Yes. :)- > The > Silmarillion does say that Tuor *alone* among Men is counted one of the > Eldar. No. It _implies_ (but does not confirm or state) that. However in Letter 153 JRRT essentially confirms that Tuor's fate was changed. > > > Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. > > True. But it is rather more than a "vice" to use the pretext of liberty's > defense as an excuse to destroy liberty yourself. And? Tar-Elenion ###### From: "AC" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 01:41:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68703 "Boris Badenov" wrote in message news:akj43uk5c6a28kl6883sgbmto8jrpgfe7j@4ax.com... > On 31 Dec 2001 23:20:12 -0800, cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: > > |> Generation 7 > |> Arwen,Elladan, and Elrohir (children of Elrond and Celebrian) > |> 3.125% maia , 18.75% human , and 78.125% elven. > | > |You're far more precise than I was, and very much right! > > Which means, of course, that the books are in error. Arwen Halfelven, indeed. Should be > Arwen 78.125%elven! It wasn't a mathetical statement, but a description of her lineage. -- AaronC ###### From: paulh Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Reply-To: paulh@fahncahn.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 23:19:13 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-WHUZlgOPrGydWhDD6C/H5+ddOgTK62f0+Guj8eTBZ4rnVtH6BYxL8IxxPWdCZEnp13PIErIKxwRndaY!i5nmPhhYq9a184T+LRo4/jj0J9aT3982eVHSaUBxCclXLsPEenrv+tkFuaThZ3sRpcUGQQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 05:19:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68815 On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 19:52:32 -0500, Boris Badenov wrote: >On 31 Dec 2001 23:20:12 -0800, cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: > >|> Generation 7 >|> Arwen,Elladan, and Elrohir (children of Elrond and Celebrian) >|> 3.125% maia , 18.75% human , and 78.125% elven. >| >|You're far more precise than I was, and very much right! > >Which means, of course, that the books are in error. Arwen Halfelven, indeed. Should be >Arwen 78.125%elven! Maybe its a rounding error? paulh ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:32:15 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.e3 X-Server-Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:32:49 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68855 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >"Stan Brown" wrote in message >news:MPG.169beeddd18b229f98cc84@news.mindspring.com... >> >> Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to >> choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would >> count as Elves. But she did have the choice. > >That is, of course, completely wrong. That is, of course, completely unhelpful. Citation? Correction, at least? If I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it, as regulars know. But the above is just a slap in the face. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "William Hanson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:04:44 -0600 Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.190.82.46 Message-ID: <3c332c95_4@corp.newsgroups.com> X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1009986709 207.190.82.46 (2 Jan 2002 09:51:49 -0600) X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!corp.newsgroups.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68594 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.169cf2097e6f1fa898cc9a@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >"Stan Brown" wrote in message > >news:MPG.169beeddd18b229f98cc84@news.mindspring.com... > >> > >> Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to > >> choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would > >> count as Elves. But she did have the choice. > > > >That is, of course, completely wrong. > > That is, of course, completely unhelpful. Citation? Correction, at > least? > > If I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it, as regulars know. But the > above is just a slap in the face. > What you described as Idril and Tuor sounds like Elwing and Earendil: Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil, 'Then Earendil said to Elwing: "Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world."' What the S., Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, says about Tuor is, 'But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.' It doesn't say he or Idril had any choice in the matter. It does contradict the following chapter on Earendil, as they both ended up in Valinor, with the Elves. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Lines: 23 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Jan 2002 16:13:34 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Message-ID: <20020102111334.13039.00002145@mb-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68588 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >>"Stan Brown" wrote in message >>news:MPG.169beeddd18b229f98cc84@news.mindspring.com... >>> >>> Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to >>> choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would >>> count as Elves. But she did have the choice. >> >>That is, of course, completely wrong. > >That is, of course, completely unhelpful. Citation? Correction, at >least? > >If I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it, as regulars know. But the >above is just a slap in the face. I think you are just mixing Tuor and Idril with Earendil and Elwing. Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:56:58 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b044.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1009994238 26404 212.205.219.44 (2 Jan 2002 17:57:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:57:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68584 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.169cf2097e6f1fa898cc9a@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >"Stan Brown" wrote in message > >news:MPG.169beeddd18b229f98cc84@news.mindspring.com... > >> > >> Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to > >> choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would > >> count as Elves. But she did have the choice. > > > >That is, of course, completely wrong. > > That is, of course, completely unhelpful. Citation? Correction, at > least? Correction? Okay: "Idril and her mortal husband are never said to have been allowed to choose. Tolkien never says he told her to choose for him, and she's never said to have chosen that they would count as Elves, nor is it ever said that she had the choice at all." Citation about something's non-mention? You provide the citation, please. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Jim Heckman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:52:26 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: News Rover 7.1.1 (http://www.NewsRover.com) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69070 On 1-Jan-2002, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote: > "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message > news:... [...] > > The Valar pretty much laid down the law when Earendil > > defied them by coming to Valar. > > Correct. The 'law' was that anyone with any mortal blood whatsoever > was mortal unless granted other Doom (see HoME 5). How does Dior fit into this? AFAICT he was treated as an Elf all through his life, wedded an Elf, etc. Did he share the fate of Elves or of Men after his death? [...] > > The > > Silmarillion does say that Tuor *alone* among Men is counted one of the > > Eldar. > > No. It _implies_ (but does not confirm or state) that. However in > Letter 153 JRRT essentially confirms that Tuor's fate was changed. What does this mean? Surely Tuor, a full-blooded Man, couldn't share the fate of the Elves: the Valar weren't permitted to revoke the Gift of Ilúvatar, were they? Is there any indication that Tuor and Idril ever made it to Aman? Or did they die at sea? -- Jim Heckman ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 03:27:09 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o238.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1010021251 8010 212.205.252.238 (3 Jan 2002 01:27:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 01:27:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69001 "Jim Heckman" wrote in message news:u3771t51ppdo1c@news.supernews.com... > > On 1-Jan-2002, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote: > > How does Dior fit into this? AFAICT he was treated as an Elf all through his > life, wedded an Elf, etc. Did he share the fate of Elves or of Men after his > death? Definitely a mortal, methinks. Both parents mortal. > > No. It _implies_ (but does not confirm or state) that. However in > > Letter 153 JRRT essentially confirms that Tuor's fate was changed. > > What does this mean? Surely Tuor, a full-blooded Man, couldn't share the > fate of the Elves: the Valar weren't permitted to revoke the Gift of Ilúvatar, > were they? Which is why this demands an intervention by Eru himself. Aris Katsaris ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 2 Jan 2002 19:37:52 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010029072 7105 127.0.0.1 (3 Jan 2002 03:37:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2002 03:37:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69151 "Jim Heckman" wrote in message news:... > On 1-Jan-2002, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote: > > > "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message > > news:... > > [...] > > > > The Valar pretty much laid down the law when Earendil > > > defied them by coming to Valar. > > > > Correct. The 'law' was that anyone with any mortal blood whatsoever > > was mortal unless granted other Doom (see HoME 5). > > How does Dior fit into this? AFAICT he was treated as an Elf all through his > life, wedded an Elf, etc. Did he share the fate of Elves or of Men after his > death? > > [...] I dont know that he was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. Certainly he ruled over Elves (but so did Tuor and Earendil and Turin essentially ruled Nargothrond). He married an Elf but so did Imrazor the Numenorean. I tend to hold that Dior was accounted among Men, in keeping with the judgement of Manwe which holds that anyone with any mortal blood is mortal unless specifically granted other Doom (see HoME 5). Dior died before any other Doom could be granted him (the first granted other Doom were Earendil and Elwing). Conrad usually takes the other side, and may of course contribute his point of veiw. > > > > The > > > Silmarillion does say that Tuor *alone* among Men is counted one of the > > > Eldar. > > > > No. It _implies_ (but does not confirm or state) that. However in > > Letter 153 JRRT essentially confirms that Tuor's fate was changed. > > What does this mean? Surely Tuor, a full-blooded Man, couldn't share the > fate of the Elves: the Valar weren't permitted to revoke the Gift of Ilúvatar, > were they? In Letter 153 JRRT writes that while the Valar were incapable of change the fate of Men and Elves, Eru could (and did in the cases of Luthien and Tuor). > > Is there any indication that Tuor and Idril ever made it to Aman? Or did > they die at sea? Letter 153 at least. There are some other traditions in the older Tales. In the main body of the mythology it is only an assumption. Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 03:57:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1010030231 216.175.100.236 (Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:57:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:57:11 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:57:14 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68990 Tar-Elenion wrote: > I dont know that [Dior] was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. Actually Dior was the child of two mortals (I first typed "the child of two Men" and then had to scratch my head and think of how to rephrase it). Luthien had already made her choice to be re-embodied as one of the Second-born when Dior was conceived, so I don't see that there's any question of what kindred her son would be, or any chance for him to make a choice, any more than the heirs of Elros could choose to become Elves and leave Numenor for Aman. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:36:27 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3c332c95_4@corp.newsgroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.b0 X-Server-Date: 3 Jan 2002 04:36:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68947 William Hanson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote in message >news:MPG.169cf2097e6f1fa898cc9a@news.mindspring.com... >> If I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it, as regulars know. And this is such an occasion. Thanks! >What you described as Idril and Tuor sounds like Elwing and Earendil: >Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil, 'Then Earendil said to Elwing: >"Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world."' Omigosh, you're right. I was completely confused. >What the S., Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, says about Tuor is, 'But in >after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the >elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is >sundered from the fate of Men.' It doesn't say he or Idril had any choice >in the matter. It does contradict the following chapter on Earendil, as >they both ended up in Valinor, with the Elves. Thanks also for this reminder. The "it was sung that" sounds like the "it is said that" Sam went West over Sea -- at most we can say that Tolkien left himself some wiggle room there. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jim Heckman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:38:21 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: News Rover 7.1.1 (http://www.NewsRover.com) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 61 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69067 On 2-Jan-2002, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote: > "Jim Heckman" wrote in message news:... [...] > > How does Dior fit into this? AFAICT he was treated as an Elf all through his > > life, wedded an Elf, etc. Did he share the fate of Elves or of Men after his > > death? > > > > [...] > > I dont know that he was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. Where is Dior called Peredhil or Half-elven? I've just re-read the Silmarillion, but haven't read LotR or UT for over 20 years, and haven't yet bought any of HoME. :-( > Certainly he ruled > over Elves (but so did Tuor and Earendil and Turin essentially ruled > Nargothrond). He married an Elf but so did Imrazor the Numenorean. Where is this about Imrazor recounted? What were the fates of his/her mate, and children (if applicable)? > I > tend to hold that Dior was accounted among Men, in keeping with the > judgement of Manwe which holds that anyone with any mortal blood is > mortal unless specifically granted other Doom (see HoME 5). Dior died > before any other Doom could be granted him (the first granted other > Doom were Earendil and Elwing). Conrad usually takes the other side, > and may of course contribute his point of veiw. Thanks for the reference and well argued POV. But if true it'd mean Dior was separated from Nimloth, though. :-( I'd be interested in hearing of any contradicting evidence that Dior was accounted among the Elves -- from Conrad or anyone else. :-) [...] > In Letter 153 JRRT writes that while the Valar were incapable of > change the fate of Men and Elves, Eru could (and did in the cases of > Luthien and Tuor). Sounds like I'd better pick up the Letters, too. :-) How many volumes are there? > > Is there any indication that Tuor and Idril ever made it to Aman? Or did > > they die at sea? > > Letter 153 at least. There are some other traditions in the older > Tales. In the main body of the mythology it is only an assumption. So what does Letter 153 say? Did they make it to Aman or not? The suspense is killing me! -- Jim Heckman ###### From: "Jim Heckman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:38:23 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: News Rover 7.1.1 (http://www.NewsRover.com) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69075 On 2-Jan-2002, "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote: > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > I dont know that [Dior] was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. > > Actually Dior was the child of two mortals (I first typed "the child of two > Men" and then had to scratch my head and think of how to rephrase it). > Luthien had already made her choice to be re-embodied as one of the > Second-born when Dior was conceived, so I don't see that there's any > question of what kindred her son would be, or any chance for him to make a > choice, any more than the heirs of Elros could choose to become Elves and > leave Numenor for Aman. Hmm. So I guess then Elwing only got to choose because of Nimloth... -- Jim Heckman ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 03:38:37 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 55 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0201030338.309d77cc@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010057917 15796 127.0.0.1 (3 Jan 2002 11:38:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2002 11:38:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69133 tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote in message news:... > I dont know that he was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. Certainly he ruled > over Elves (but so did Tuor and Earendil and Turin essentially ruled > Nargothrond). He married an Elf but so did Imrazor the Numenorean. I > tend to hold that Dior was accounted among Men, in keeping with the > judgement of Manwe which holds that anyone with any mortal blood is > mortal unless specifically granted other Doom (see HoME 5). Dior died > before any other Doom could be granted him (the first granted other > Doom were Earendil and Elwing). Conrad usually takes the other side, > and may of course contribute his point of veiw. I concur with all of the above >except< that a little thing like death must necessarily cut short all options in Tolkien's Middle-earth. After all, Beren was allowed a second chance at life and Luthien a different fate ('Doom') altogether >after< they had died. Earendil & Elwing are commonly held to be the first precedent in this issue, but I think Beren & Luthien also apply. Luthien was 'peredhil' herself in some sense, though not of human ancestry, and despite having no part of the 'Gift of Man' in her bloodline she was allowed to choose that path. So yes, Dior (and his sons) died. Yes, Manwe ruled that anyone with mortal ancestry not granted other Doom would be mortal by default (though this seems like it would have to be changed if any of Elrond's children went to the West with him and themselves had children). However, no... the fact that they died does not remove the possibility that they WERE granted some other Doom. This last is where I part ways with CT and most others on this issue - I do not believe we can assume that Dior and sons were given no options. Against this is Mandos's initial belief that Earendil & Elwing should automatically be accounted mortal. Which, if Dior & sons had already arrived and moved on to final destinations, could imply that he had already applied such a rule. However, in contrast there is Luthien's successful argument that spouses should not be eternally separated; as Dior (her son) and Nimloth would have been if neither of them was granted a change in nature. Too, the idea that Elwing would receive a choice that her brothers did not simply because they were killed in childhood seems strange to me. Now, if they'd gone to the Halls of Mandos and been shuffled on through 'the system' by Namo before Earendil & Elwing ever showed up that might explain such a result, but we really don't know one way or another and it would still be breaking the bond of marriage between Dior & Nimloth - which is NOT a minor issue. > In Letter 153 JRRT writes that while the Valar were incapable of > change the fate of Men and Elves, Eru could (and did in the cases of > Luthien and Tuor). However, since Eru granted the 'administration' of this issue to the Valar they in effect COULD determine that an individual should be of one fate or the other. It was Eru who carried out the policy, but the Valar set the rules. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 03:53:23 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010058803 16052 127.0.0.1 (3 Jan 2002 11:53:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2002 11:53:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69140 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:... > Actually Dior was the child of two mortals (I first typed "the child of two > Men" and then had to scratch my head and think of how to rephrase it). > Luthien had already made her choice to be re-embodied as one of the > Second-born when Dior was conceived, so I don't see that there's any > question of what kindred her son would be, or any chance for him to make a > choice, any more than the heirs of Elros could choose to become Elves and > leave Numenor for Aman. Arwen was the daughter of two immortals... and yet she had a choice to become mortal. Ditto for Luthien. Silm suggests and Letters states that Tuor, son of two mortals, was allowed to become immortal. Earlier texts grant a similar conversion to his cousin Turin. Ancestry is not the only determinant. Even if we suppose that Luthien's ancestry was somehow 'wiped away' by her choice (in contradiction of the fact that Tolkien DID call Dior 'half elven' and 'first of the peredhil') that might make Dior '100% human' but still NOT prevent the possibility that he was eventually judged amongst the first kindred. His mother had successfully argued that it was injust that she be separated for all time from her mortal husband. The Valar agreed that this was the case and Eru changed her basic nature. The same argument would be equally valid in Dior's case - if the Valar judged him to be mortal they would be separating him forever from his Elven wife. One or the other of them would have to 'change kindreds' or the Valar were breaching the 'sanctity of marriage'. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:30:52 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p118.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1010061089 22237 212.205.253.118 (3 Jan 2002 12:31:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:31:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69026 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com... > > His mother had successfully argued > that it was injust that she be separated for all time from her mortal > husband. "Successfully argued that it was unjust"? I remember no such argument. Mandos was for the first timed moved to *pity*... Justice seems to not have been as important as mercy, in this case. > The Valar agreed that this was the case and Eru changed her > basic nature. Where is this? Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:33:46 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0201030338.309d77cc@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p118.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1010061264 22319 212.205.253.118 (3 Jan 2002 12:34:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:34:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.telia-iberia.com!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69023 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1178b6d1.0201030338.309d77cc@posting.google.com... > However, in contrast there is Luthien's > successful argument that spouses should not be eternally separated; Once again, where is this? Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 12:36:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1010061368 216.175.100.236 (Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:36:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:36:08 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:36:10 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69000 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Silm suggests and Letters states > that Tuor, son of two mortals, was allowed to become immortal. > Earlier texts grant a similar conversion to his cousin Turin. Really? Did Turin not die in those versions, or what? Seems weird -- he's got that whole sorrows-that-can-only-be-cleansed-by-death vibe about him. At the end of the Fall of Gondolin, Tuor is stated to be the *only* one of the Secondborn to be counted among the Eldar (Earendil is just a "mannish" sort of Peredhil, I guess). > Ancestry is not the only determinant. Yes, but the choice of the Peredhil only seems to apply to the descendants of half-elves until someone chooses mortality -- the heirs of Elros do *not* get to choose or Ar-Pharazon could've just gone "hey, actually I'd rather live forever" and so it would've been, and Sauron would've had nothing to corrupt him with. Nor is there any hint that Arwen's son Eldarion will have the option to reverse his mother's choice and become the first Elvish king of Gondor -- the possibility would make nonsense of Elessar's reign inaugurating the Age of Men. > The same argument would be equally valid in Dior's case > - if the Valar judged him to be mortal they would be separating > him forever from his Elven wife. One or the other of them would > have to 'change kindreds' or the Valar were breaching the 'sanctity > of marriage' True dat. Hm. Well, Elvish he must have been then, because Tolkien wouldn't have just ignored a third Elf-maid making the Choice of Luthien -- and besides, then where would Elwing's right to immortality have gone? It still seems inconsistent with the rules for the rest of the Peredhil, though. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 11:05:06 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 82 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0201031105.7268312d@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010084706 27099 127.0.0.1 (3 Jan 2002 19:05:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2002 19:05:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69100 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:... > Really? Did Turin not die in those versions, or what? Seems weird -- he's > got that whole sorrows-that-can-only-be-cleansed-by-death vibe about him. No, he still died... but again, I'm arguing that 'death' isn't the final moment of arbitration in such matters; "In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, and Beren Camlost, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world;" JRRT's final known version, reconstructed from LROW QS Conclusion ~31-32 and alterations listed in WotJ LQS - Last Chapters of the QS > At the end of the Fall of Gondolin, Tuor is stated to be the *only* > one of the Secondborn to be counted among the Eldar (Earendil > is just a "mannish" sort of Peredhil, I guess). Heh. I didn't say Turin was counted amongst the Eldar in those texts... I said that he became immortal. :> "Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods." SoME, The Quenta ~1930 > Yes, but the choice of the Peredhil only seems to apply to the descendants > of half-elves until someone chooses mortality -- the heirs of Elros do *not* > get to choose or Ar-Pharazon could've just gone "hey, actually I'd rather > live forever" and so it would've been, and Sauron would've had nothing to > corrupt him with. Well, there is at least some debate that the earliest children of Elros >might< have been able to choose to be Eldar, but that is a side issue. The primary point I am making here is that 'the choice of the Peredhil' is not the only 'choice' that can allow one of the Eruhini to change kindreds. There are nearly as many examples of NON peredhil changing kindred as there are of half-elves doing so. > True dat. Hm. Well, Elvish he must have been then, because Tolkien > wouldn't have just ignored a third Elf-maid making the Choice of Luthien -- > and besides, then where would Elwing's right to immortality have gone? It > still seems inconsistent with the rules for the rest of the Peredhil, > though. Unless, as I am suggesting, the 'rules for the peredhil' were just a subset of the rules for ALL Eruhini. There were other conditions under which they were allowed to change kindreds. Being born 'peredhil' was perhaps only noteworthy in being one of the more commonly met conditions. Suppose I am right about marriage being the primary determinant - run through the list of individuals whose kindred changed. Every known change except for Turin's (and that was only in older versions) is to the kindred of the person's spouse. As such, it could be argued (and I am doing so) that the 'choice of the peredhil' was largely just a variation on the 'choice of Luthien'. Did Tolkien clearly spell it out this way? Definitely not. However, there also doesn't seem to be anything in the texts contradicting it. ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 17:09:10 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 88 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010106550 3897 127.0.0.1 (4 Jan 2002 01:09:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:09:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69765 "Jim Heckman" wrote in message news:... > On 2-Jan-2002, tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote: > > > "Jim Heckman" wrote in message news:... > > [...] > > > > How does Dior fit into this? AFAICT he was treated as an Elf all through his > > > life, wedded an Elf, etc. Did he share the fate of Elves or of Men after his > > > death? > > > > > > [...] > > > > I dont know that he was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. > > Where is Dior called Peredhil or Half-elven? I've just re-read the Silmarillion, > but haven't read LotR or UT for over 20 years, and haven't yet bought any of > HoME. :-( He is referred to as such in both HoME 11 and 12, one quote where he is referred to as such is "Earendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior...", from the Shibboleth of Feanor ca. 1968. > > > Certainly he ruled > > over Elves (but so did Tuor and Earendil and Turin essentially ruled > > Nargothrond). He married an Elf but so did Imrazor the Numenorean. > > Where is this about Imrazor recounted? What were the fates of his/her > mate, and children (if applicable)? In the Amroth and Nimrodel portion of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. After bearing him a son and daughter Mithrellas 'slipped' away. She must have remained 'immortal' as Luthien was the only 'immortal' allowed to change her fate. Imrazor (an ancestor of Imrahil) and his children were mortal. > > > I > > tend to hold that Dior was accounted among Men, in keeping with the > > judgement of Manwe which holds that anyone with any mortal blood is > > mortal unless specifically granted other Doom (see HoME 5). Dior died > > before any other Doom could be granted him (the first granted other > > Doom were Earendil and Elwing). Conrad usually takes the other side, > > and may of course contribute his point of veiw. > > Thanks for the reference and well argued POV. But if true it'd mean Dior > was separated from Nimloth, though. :-( I'd be interested in hearing of any > contradicting evidence that Dior was accounted among the Elves -- from > Conrad or anyone else. :-) Your welcome. Conrad has. :) > > [...] > > > In Letter 153 JRRT writes that while the Valar were incapable of > > change the fate of Men and Elves, Eru could (and did in the cases of > > Luthien and Tuor). > > Sounds like I'd better pick up the Letters, too. :-) How many volumes are > there? One. There is a recent reprint, retails for 15 dollars. > > > > Is there any indication that Tuor and Idril ever made it to Aman? Or did > > > they die at sea? > > > > Letter 153 at least. There are some other traditions in the older > > Tales. In the main body of the mythology it is only an assumption. > > So what does Letter 153 say? Did they make it to Aman or not? The > suspense is killing me! It says that Eru changed the fate of Luthien and Tuor. If Tuor had died on his way to Aman I doubt his fate would have been changed (though I suppose he could have died and then had his fate change in Mandos and been reembodied). But in any event he eventually made it to Aman (in one early version Earendil finds Idril and Tuor 'sleeping' in a tower on an island near Aman, if I recall correctly, its been a while since I read that account). Tar-Elenion ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 17:13:14 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010106794 3974 127.0.0.1 (4 Jan 2002 01:13:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:13:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69756 "Jim Heckman" wrote in message news:... > On 2-Jan-2002, "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote: > > > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > > I dont know that [Dior] was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > > > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. > > > > Actually Dior was the child of two mortals (I first typed "the child of two > > Men" and then had to scratch my head and think of how to rephrase it). > > Luthien had already made her choice to be re-embodied as one of the > > Second-born when Dior was conceived, so I don't see that there's any > > question of what kindred her son would be, or any chance for him to make a > > choice, any more than the heirs of Elros could choose to become Elves and > > leave Numenor for Aman. > > Hmm. So I guess then Elwing only got to choose because of Nimloth... Nimloth may have been a full Elf, but Dior was only half Man. While Luthien may have been accounted among Men, I do not think her 'genetic' makeup was changed. Dior was still said to have been part of three reaces (Men, Elves and Maiar). Technically Elwing only got to Choose because Manwe allowed her to. ;) Tar-Elenion ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 17:41:57 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0201030338.309d77cc@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010108518 4591 127.0.0.1 (4 Jan 2002 01:41:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:41:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69782 conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) wrote in message news:<1178b6d1.0201030338.309d77cc@posting.google.com>... > tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) wrote in message news:... > > > I dont know that he was 'treated as an Elf'. He was called the first > > of the Peredhil, and referred to as Half-elven. Certainly he ruled > > over Elves (but so did Tuor and Earendil and Turin essentially ruled > > Nargothrond). He married an Elf but so did Imrazor the Numenorean. I > > tend to hold that Dior was accounted among Men, in keeping with the > > judgement of Manwe which holds that anyone with any mortal blood is > > mortal unless specifically granted other Doom (see HoME 5). Dior died > > before any other Doom could be granted him (the first granted other > > Doom were Earendil and Elwing). Conrad usually takes the other side, > > and may of course contribute his point of veiw. > > I concur with all of the above >except< that a little thing like death > must necessarily cut short all options in Tolkien's Middle-earth. > After all, Beren was allowed a second chance at life and Luthien a > different fate ('Doom') altogether >after< they had died. But before Beren's spirit had 'sought elsewhither'. Of course we dont know how long the spirits of Men could tarry in Mandos (perhaps some time if the early Turin tradition could be taken to apply). > Earendil & > Elwing are commonly held to be the first precedent in this issue, but > I think Beren & Luthien also apply. Luthien was 'peredhil' herself in > some sense, though not of human ancestry, and despite having no part > of the 'Gift of Man' in her bloodline she was allowed to choose that > path. But Luthien was fully 'immortal' and an 'absolute exception' (L153). She and Tuor are also noted to be an 'exception either way' (Tuor 'unique' and Luthien 'absolute' (L153). > > So yes, Dior (and his sons) died. Yes, Manwe ruled that anyone with > mortal ancestry not granted other Doom would be mortal by default > (though this seems like it would have to be changed if any of Elrond's > children went to the West with him and themselves had children). This is true. If they remained and were mortal they could not have wed, if they left and were immortal and had children what of their children's fate? > However, no... the fact that they died does not remove the possibility > that they WERE granted some other Doom. But only a possibility. > This last is where I part > ways with CT and most others on this issue - I do not believe we can > assume that Dior and sons were given no options. While I would like to think that Dior was somehow given a Choice, I just do not think there is enough evidence to conclusively support that opinion. Similarly while I like to think that Elladan and Elrohir sailed West eventually, I dont think the evidence supports that conclusively (JRRT only said they were able to delay their Choice for a time, he did not say what that Choice was). > > Against this is Mandos's initial belief that Earendil & Elwing should > automatically be accounted mortal. Which, if Dior & sons had already > arrived and moved on to final destinations, could imply that he had > already applied such a rule. However, in contrast there is Luthien's > successful argument that spouses should not be eternally separated; as > Dior (her son) and Nimloth would have been if neither of them was > granted a change in nature. Too, the idea that Elwing would receive a > choice that her brothers did not simply because they were killed in > childhood seems strange to me. Now, if they'd gone to the Halls of > Mandos and been shuffled on through 'the system' by Namo before > Earendil & Elwing ever showed up that might explain such a result, but > we really don't know one way or another and it would still be breaking > the bond of marriage between Dior & Nimloth - which is NOT a minor > issue. > > > In Letter 153 JRRT writes that while the Valar were incapable of > > change the fate of Men and Elves, Eru could (and did in the cases of > > Luthien and Tuor). > > However, since Eru granted the 'administration' of this issue to the > Valar they in effect COULD determine that an individual should be of > one fate or the other. It was Eru who carried out the policy, but the > Valar set the rules. For the Peredhil, not for full Elves and Men. Luthien and Tuor were sole exceptions either way ("no alteration of their fundamental kind could be efffected by the Valar even in one case", the fates of Luthien and Tuor had already been effected by Eru). Tar-Elenion ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 3 Jan 2002 17:44:41 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.134.168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010108681 4653 127.0.0.1 (4 Jan 2002 01:44:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:44:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69804 conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) wrote in message news:<1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com>... > "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:... > > > Actually Dior was the child of two mortals (I first typed "the child of two > > Men" and then had to scratch my head and think of how to rephrase it). > > Luthien had already made her choice to be re-embodied as one of the > > Second-born when Dior was conceived, so I don't see that there's any > > question of what kindred her son would be, or any chance for him to make a > > choice, any more than the heirs of Elros could choose to become Elves and > > leave Numenor for Aman. > > Arwen was the daughter of two immortals... and yet she had a choice to > become mortal. Ditto for Luthien. Silm suggests and Letters states > that Tuor, son of two mortals, was allowed to become immortal. > Earlier texts grant a similar conversion to his cousin Turin. > > Ancestry is not the only determinant. > > Even if we suppose that Luthien's ancestry was somehow 'wiped away' by > her choice (in contradiction of the fact that Tolkien DID call Dior > 'half elven' and 'first of the peredhil') that might make Dior '100% > human' but still NOT prevent the possibility that he was eventually > judged amongst the first kindred. Actually given the stated 'supposition' he would be 'mortal' as Tuor was a 'unique' exception. Tar-Elenion ###### From: "AC" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0201030353.2aa3e98f@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:17:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-04!supernews.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69586 "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" wrote in message news:YeYY7.265$zw3.123866@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Silm suggests and Letters states > > that Tuor, son of two mortals, was allowed to become immortal. > > Earlier texts grant a similar conversion to his cousin Turin. > > Really? Did Turin not die in those versions, or what? Seems weird -- he's > got that whole sorrows-that-can-only-be-cleansed-by-death vibe about him. I don't remember Turin ever being granted immortality. In Lost Tales it is said that Turin will return and become one of the Gods, and it is he who will slay Melko to avenge the ills done to him and his kin. I think the idea may have been continued into the Sketch of Mythology in the early 1930s, but was abandoned soon after. -- AaronC ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 11:14:54 -0800 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3C38A22F.622067C3@erols.com> References: Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZczvalAfjZvKcWRctwcywQW/3h/AmgYKVzk/D8nBy/jdG5sqKSLPA3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2002 19:36:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70338 Stan Brown made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Tar-Elenion wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Luthien is the only Elf who was allowed to become 'mortal'. > > Idril Celebrindal. She and her mortal husband Tuor were allowed to > choose. He told her to choose for him, and she chose that they would > count as Elves. But she did have the choice. Where is that? I want to know! > -- > Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA > http://oakroadsystems.com > Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) > Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html > Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm > more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: smaug86@yahoo.com (Smaug69) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:21:42 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5fe774aa.0201071221.6c192a9@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.119.165.73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010434903 20659 127.0.0.1 (7 Jan 2002 20:21:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2002 20:21:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71017 cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote in message news:... > "Christopher Basken" wrote in message news:... > > I seem to remember somewhere Elrond being referred to as Elrond Half-Elven, > > but I can't find it. > > > > And the Hobbit says: > > > > "In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves > > and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house > > was their chief." > > > > Which could, of course, mean he's the leader of a bunch of half-elves, or he > > is the head half-elf. > > > > What would that make Arwen? > > IMHO 3/4 of an elf, because her mother was fully Elvish (being the > daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn) This can all get kind of confusing- especially when you bring math into it. ;-) I mean, for the sake of argument, Elrond isn't really half-elf or half-man. His great-grandmother was half-elf and half-Maia. His great-grandfather was a man. His grandfather was part elf, part Maia and part man. His grandmother was an elf. His father was half-elf and half-man and his mother part elf, part Maia, part man. You mix it all up and you don't really come out with half-anything for Elrond. IMO, Elrond isn't a Peredhil. And Arwen definitely wouldn't be one either. Only Earendil is a true Peredhil- in the sense of actually being just half-elf and just half-man. Of coure, I'm not bringing any of the choices of immortality or mortality into the mix, just genes. Smaug69 ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:13:45 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5fe774aa.0201071221.6c192a9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.60 X-Server-Date: 8 Jan 2002 04:13:35 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71186 Smaug69 wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I mean, for the sake of argument, Elrond isn't really half-elf or >half-man. You're correct. I think maybe you're getting hung up on the numbers, which aren't really applicable to that characterization. When we speak of Elrond as Half-Elven, we don't mean his ancestry was 50%/50%. We mean he had some Elven and some mortal ancestry. We wouldn't speak of Aragorn as half-Elven because he had only a tiny bit of Elvish ancestry. But Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and his children would all be called half-Elven without worrying about precise percentages. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: smaug86@yahoo.com (Smaug69) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: another silly question: is Elrond a half-elf? Date: 8 Jan 2002 07:29:59 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5fe774aa.0201080729.42745045@posting.google.com> References: <5fe774aa.0201071221.6c192a9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.119.165.101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010503799 14923 127.0.0.1 (8 Jan 2002 15:29:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2002 15:29:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70998 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Smaug69 wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I mean, for the sake of argument, Elrond isn't really half-elf or > >half-man. > > You're correct. I think maybe you're getting hung up on the numbers, > which aren't really applicable to that characterization. > > When we speak of Elrond as Half-Elven, we don't mean his ancestry > was 50%/50%. We mean he had some Elven and some mortal ancestry. We > wouldn't speak of Aragorn as half-Elven because he had only a tiny > bit of Elvish ancestry. But Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and his > children would all be called half-Elven without worrying about > precise percentages. That was my point. You can't get caught up in the math. However, I still think that calling Elrond a half-elf in any case isn't right. He made his choice pretty early on- unlike Arwen- and he chose to be counted among the elves. IMO, he is a full elf- no halvsies. Smaug69