From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Historical Pelennor Message-ID: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 42 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:33:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1009841613 208.170.95.99 (Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:33:33 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:33:33 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68280 The year 718 was a bad one for the Byzantine Empire. As recently as the year 600, the Empire had held everything that used to be the eastern half of the Roman Empire (the Balkans south of the Danube, Anatolia, Syria, Egypt), plus large chunks of Italy, North Africa and a bit of Spain. The disastrous 7th century saw them lose almost all of their territory: all but southern Italy fell to the Lombards and Spain went to the Visigoths, but the biggest threat to Byzantium was the rising power of the Arab Caliphate. In the 630s and 40s Syria and Egypt fell, and in the 690s North Africa; the Caliphate also conquered the entire Persian Empire (Rome's old foe) in the 640s and Visigothic Spain in 711. With territories stretching from the Pyrenees to the Indus, the Caliphate was poised to deliver a killing blow to the Byzantine Empire, the last bulwark of the West. In the mid 670s the Arabs had laid siege to Constantinople by sea from corsair bases set up in the Sea of Marmara; but they had been defeated by "Greek Fire", an inflammable oil that could be jetted at enemy ships. In 717, fresh from their victories in Spain, the Arabs attacked Constantinople once again, by land under Caliph Sulayman's brother Maslama, and also be sea. Constantinople was besieged and surrounded and it seemed only a matter of time before it would be taken and the Byzantine Empire would become a province of the Caliphate. At this extremity, Emperor Leo III called upon his neighbor monarch to the north, the pagan Khan Tervel of the Bulgars, with whom he had a pact of alliance. In response to the Emperor's summons, the Bulgars rode south, and in a monumental battle in the year 718, their heavy cavalry swept aside the Arab light horse before the walls of Constantinople. The Arab fleet was destroyed by the Byzantines. The Arabs fell back and would never again besiege Constantinople; their empire fell prey to corruption within and eventually fragmented in civil wars. The Byzantine Empire would endure for another 500 years. For the Byzantine Empire, read Gondor; for Constantinople, Minas Tirith; for the Arabs, the Haradrim and Corsairs; for Khan Tervel and the Bulgars, read King Théoden and the Rohirrim, and the story is almost exactly that of the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, minus its fantastic elements. Could Tolkien have had this episode of history in mind when he wrote Book V of The Lord of the Rings? David Salo ###### From: cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Date: 31 Dec 2001 19:00:44 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.131.241.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009854044 14618 127.0.0.1 (1 Jan 2002 03:00:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2002 03:00:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68448 David Salo wrote in message news:<311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net>... > The year 718 was a bad one for the Byzantine Empire. As recently > as the year 600, the Empire had held everything that used to be the > eastern half of the Roman Empire (the Balkans south of the Danube, > Anatolia, Syria, Egypt), plus large chunks of Italy, North Africa and a > bit of Spain. The disastrous 7th century saw them lose almost all of > their territory: all but southern Italy fell to the Lombards and Spain > went to the Visigoths, but the biggest threat to Byzantium was the > rising power of the Arab Caliphate. In the 630s and 40s Syria and > Egypt fell, and in the 690s North Africa; the Caliphate also conquered > the entire Persian Empire (Rome's old foe) in the 640s and Visigothic > Spain in 711. With territories stretching from the Pyrenees to the > Indus, the Caliphate was poised to deliver a killing blow to the > Byzantine Empire, the last bulwark of the West. > In the mid 670s the Arabs had laid siege to Constantinople by sea > from corsair bases set up in the Sea of Marmara; but they had been > defeated by "Greek Fire", an inflammable oil that could be jetted at > enemy ships. In 717, fresh from their victories in Spain, the Arabs > attacked Constantinople once again, by land under Caliph Sulayman's > brother Maslama, and also be sea. Constantinople was besieged and > surrounded and it seemed only a matter of time before it would be taken > and the Byzantine Empire would become a province of the Caliphate. > At this extremity, Emperor Leo III called upon his neighbor > monarch to the north, the pagan Khan Tervel of the Bulgars, with whom > he had a pact of alliance. In response to the Emperor's summons, the > Bulgars rode south, and in a monumental battle in the year 718, their > heavy cavalry swept aside the Arab light horse before the walls of > Constantinople. The Arab fleet was destroyed by the Byzantines. > The Arabs fell back and would never again besiege Constantinople; > their empire fell prey to corruption within and eventually fragmented > in civil wars. The Byzantine Empire would endure for another 500 > years. > > For the Byzantine Empire, read Gondor; for Constantinople, Minas > Tirith; for the Arabs, the Haradrim and Corsairs; for Khan Tervel and > the Bulgars, read King Théoden and the Rohirrim, and the story is > almost exactly that of the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the > Pelennor Fields, minus its fantastic elements. Could Tolkien have had > this episode of history in mind when he wrote Book V of The Lord of the > Rings? > > David Salo May be, but I've also read the theory that the Battle of Pellenor was modelled on the Battle of Chalons , with Orcs as Huns and the Riders of Rohan as the Visigoths, and Theoden as the Visigoth king Theodoric I (who died in this battle). Source: Defending Middle-Earth / Patrick Curry. - Edinburgh : Floris books, 1997 (pag. 42) According to my history book [Europe : a history / Norman Davies. - London : Pimlico, 1997 (pag 232)] this battle took place in 451 AD. It was fought between the Huns on the one side and an alliance between the Visigoths under Theodoric I and Salian Franks under "sea-born" Merovech on the other. This "sea-born" rings a bell... The fifth century is also the time for the appearance of the Anglo-Saxon languages Tolkien was so interested in. IMHO Tolkien was more interested in Goths, Saxons etc. than in Arabs and the Byzantine Empire; the former were subject of his University work, Arabs and Byzantines were not. By the way: my history book also gives this (interesting) quote about Atilla, the leader of the Huns: "The grass never grew where his horse had trod". Rings another bell to me.... Love, Cyria ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:29:53 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c27.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68426 arnor/gondor does have echo with the western/eastern roman empire and israel/judah kingdoms ###### From: cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Date: 31 Dec 2001 23:26:54 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.131.241.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009870015 18812 127.0.0.1 (1 Jan 2002 07:26:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2002 07:26:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68420 mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) wrote in message news:... > arnor/gondor does have echo with the western/eastern roman empire > and israel/judah kingdoms I'm willing to believe anyone who can support a better theory than mine ;-) However, I _would_ like to see some arguments instead of just a statement. Love, Cirya ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:39:02 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c42.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68423 In article , cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: >mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) wrote in message news:... >> arnor/gondor does have echo with the western/eastern roman empire >> and israel/judah kingdoms > > >I'm willing to believe anyone who can support a better theory than mine ;-) >However, I _would_ like to see some arguments instead of just a statement. is so is not is so is not is so is not is so is not is so is not ###### From: "Ben Kaufman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 01:40:28 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.b2.80.71 X-Server-Date: 1 Jan 2002 09:41:56 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68375 > > I'm willing to believe anyone who can support a better theory than mine ;-) > However, I _would_ like to see some arguments instead of just a statement. Oh, I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room12A. Just along the corridor. ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Message-ID: <010120020622383174%dsalo@usa.net> References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 29 Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 12:19:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET Help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: kent.svc.tds.net 1009887560 208.170.95.105 (Tue, 01 Jan 2002 06:19:20 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 06:19:20 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!204.189.71.76.MISMATCH!kent.svc.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68276 In article , cirya@dolfijn.nl (Cirya) wrote: > May be, but I've also read the theory that the Battle of Pellenor was > modelled on the Battle of Chalons , with Orcs as Huns and the Riders > of Rohan as the Visigoths, and Theoden as the Visigoth king Theodoric > I (who died in this battle). I don't quite see the parallel (but then some people might not see *my* parallel). Chalons wasn't quite as pivotal as the siege of Constantinople; it just stopped Attila from ravaging Gaul. IMHO the Huns have their analogue in Middle-earth: the Wainriders, who control most of Rhovanion for about a century in the last years of the Kings of Gondor. > The fifth century is also the time for the appearance of the > Anglo-Saxon languages Tolkien was so interested in. IMHO Tolkien was > more interested in Goths, Saxons etc. than in Arabs and the Byzantine > Empire; the former were subject of his University work, Arabs and > Byzantines were not. I think Tolkien was pretty well-read in early European history, whether it had to do with Goths and Saxons. And he did compare Gondor to Byzantium (when he wasn't comparing it with Egypt, the Holy Roman Empire, or Venice!). It's hard to see the Haradrim as resembling any European people. DS ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 15:57:06 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.98 X-Server-Date: 1 Jan 2002 20:57:20 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68817 David Salo wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > The year 718 was a bad one for the Byzantine Empire. As recently Can't you bring in Heraclius' fleet from Carthage somehow? That would be analogous to Aragorn bringing the fleet up the Anduin in the nick of time. The analogy is even better in that Heraclius _did_ become ruler of the Empire after winning the battle against the invaders. It was in 610 and not 718, but... -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <311220011736471258%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: The Historical Pelennor Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.30.37 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1009971058 212.151.30.37 (Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:30:58 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:30:58 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-30-37.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:32:42 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68709 David Salo wrote: > The year 718 was a bad one for the Byzantine Empire. As recently [snip] > For the Byzantine Empire, read Gondor; for Constantinople, Minas >Tirith; for the Arabs, the Haradrim and Corsairs; for Khan Tervel and >the Bulgars, read King Théoden and the Rohirrim, and the story is >almost exactly that of the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the >Pelennor Fields, minus its fantastic elements. Could Tolkien have had >this episode of history in mind when he wrote Book V of The Lord of the >Rings? I think the answer is yes. There are a couple of additional items that I think clinch the matter. For one, a huge wall was built around the country area surrounding Constantinople, just the way the Rammas Echor was built around the Fields of Pelennor surrounding Minas Tirith. Secondly, after the failed attempt at Constantinople, the Arabs frequently sent fleets of marauding corsairs that ravaged the coasts of the Byzantine Empire. Their ships had black sails, just like those of the corsairs of Umbar. Öjevind