From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> Subject: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Lines: 125 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.27.69 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1009646781 212.151.27.69 (Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:26:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:26:21 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-27-69.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:28:02 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67464 Aris Katsaris wrote: [snip] >It seems to me that Godwin's law ought be updated to include >references to the Taliban... Godwin's Law is often misunderstood. In fact, it does not state that as soon as Hitler is introduced in a discussion, the discussion should be regarded as over, with the one who mentioned Hitler the one who lost the argument. Below is an article by Mike Godwin himself clarifying matters. Öjevind --------------------- Meme, Counter-meme By Mike Godwin It was back in 1990 that I set out on a project in memetic engineering. The Nazi-comparison meme, I'd decided, had gotten out of hand - in countless Usenet newsgroups, in many conferences on the Well, and on every BBS that I frequented, the labeling of posters or their ideas as "similar to the Nazis" or "Hitler-like" was a recurrent and often predictable event. It was the kind of thing that made you wonder how debates had ever occurred without having that handy rhetorical hammer. Not everyone saw the comparison to Nazis as a "meme" - most people on the Net, as elsewhere, had never heard of "memes" or "memetics." But now that we're living in an increasingly information-aware culture, it's time for that to change. And it's time for net.dwellers to make a conscious effort to control the kinds of memes they create or circulate. A "meme," of course, is an idea that functions in a mind the same way a gene or virus functions in the body. And an infectious idea (call it a "viral meme") may leap from mind to mind, much as viruses leap from body to body. When a meme catches on, it may crystallize whole schools of thought. Take the "black hole" meme, for instance. As physicist Brandon Carter has commented in Stephen Hawkings's A Brief History of Time: A Reader's Companion: "Things changed dramatically when John Wheeler invented the term [black hole]...Everybody adopted it, and from then on, people around the world, in Moscow, in America, in England, and elsewhere, could know they were speaking about the same thing." Once the "black hole" meme became commonplace, it became a handy source of metaphors for everything from illiteracy to the deficit. By 1990, I had noticed, something similar had happened to the Nazi-comparison meme. Sure, there are obvious topics in which the comparison recurs. In discussions about guns and the Second Amendment, for example, gun-control advocates are periodically reminded that Hitler banned personal weapons. And birth-control debates are frequently marked by pro-lifers' insistence that abortionists are engaging in mass murder, worse than that of Nazi death camps. And in any newsgroup in which censorship is discussed, someone inevitably raises the specter of Nazi book-burning. But the Nazi-comparison meme popped up elsewhere as well - in general discussions of law in misc.legal, for example, or in the EFF conference on the Well. Stone libertarians were ready to label any government regulation as incipient Nazism. And, invariably, the comparisons trivialized the horror of the Holocaust and the social pathology of the Nazis. It was a trivialization I found both illogical (Michael Dukakis as a Nazi? Please!) and offensive (the millions of concentration-camp victims did not die to give some net.blowhard a handy trope). So, I set out to conduct an experiment - to build a counter-meme designed to make discussion participants see how they are acting as vectors to a particularly silly and offensive meme...and perhaps to curtail the glib Nazi comparisons. I developed Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. I seeded Godwin's Law in any newsgroup or topic where I saw a gratuitous Nazi reference. Soon, to my surprise, other people were citing it - the counter-meme was reproducing on its own! And it mutated like a meme, generating corollaries like the following: Gordon's Restatement of Newman's Corollary to Godwin's Law: Libertarianism (pro, con, and internal faction fights) is the primordial net.news discussion topic. Any time the debate shifts somewhere else, it must eventually return to this fuel source. Morgan's Corollary to Godwin's Law: As soon as such a comparison occurs, someone will start a Nazi-discussion thread on alt.censorship. Sircar's Corollary: If the Usenet discussion touches on homosexuality or Heinlein, Nazis or Hitler are mentioned within three days. Van der Leun's Corollary: As global connectivity improves, the probability of actual Nazis being on the Net approaches one. Miller's Paradox: As a network evolves, the number of Nazi comparisons not forestalled by citation to Godwin's Law converges to zero. In time, discussions in the seeded newsgroups and discussions seemed to show a lower incidence of the Nazi-comparison meme. And the counter-meme mutated into even more useful forms. (As Cuckoo's Egg author Cliff Stoll once said to me: "Godwin's Law? Isn't that the law that states that once a discussion reaches a comparison to Nazis or Hitler, its usefulness is over?") By my (admittedly low) standards, the experiment was a success. But its success had given me much to reflect on. If it's possible to generate effective counter-memes, is there any moral imperative to do so? When we see a bad or false meme go by, should we take pains to chase it with a counter-meme? Do we have an obligation to improve our informational environment? Our social environment? But this power to do good may also be a power to do ill. Anyone on the Net has the power to affect stock prices. (Or worse: a fraudulent re-creation of the Tylenol-poisoning scare could cause a national or international panic.) And viral memes are capable of doing lasting damage. While the world of the Net is filled with diverse critical thinkers who are ready to challenge self-indulgent or self-aggrandizing memes, we can't rely on net.culture's diversity and inertia to answer every bad meme. The Nazi-comparison meme has a peculiar resilience, in part because of its sheer inflammatory power ("You're calling me a Nazi? You're the Nazi in this discussion!") The best way to fight such memes is to craft counter-memes designed to put them in perspective. The time may have come for us to commit ourselves to memetic engineering - crafting good memes to drive out the bad ones. Otherwise, plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose. ###### From: Dale Hicks Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Message-ID: References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Lines: 12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:33:52 EST Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:39:50 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67627 In article <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net>, ojevind.lang@swipnet.se says... > > So, I set out to conduct an experiment - to build a counter-meme designed to > make discussion participants see how they are acting as vectors to a > particularly silly and offensive meme...and perhaps to curtail the glib Nazi > comparisons. Godwin was just f'ing with our heads, I say we string him up! -- Cranial Crusader dgh1138@bellsouth.net ###### From: "Ted Martin" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:22:10 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.230.117.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1009682538 64.230.117.123 (Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:22:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:22:18 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67891 "Dale Hicks" wrote in message news:MPG.1697f41f956ceb5198a2bf@news1.lig.bellsouth.net... > In article <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net>, > ojevind.lang@swipnet.se says... > > > > So, I set out to conduct an experiment - to build a counter-meme designed to > > make discussion participants see how they are acting as vectors to a > > particularly silly and offensive meme...and perhaps to curtail the glib Nazi > > comparisons. > > Godwin was just f'ing with our heads, I say we string him up! > > -- > Cranial Crusader dgh1138@bellsouth.net > Well, that seems a bit extreme. Nonetheless... The term "Taliban" seems an apt way to refer to how some original members of this particular discussion group have reacted to the new fans by citing Tolkien's work as some sort of bible which lesser mortals should never question. It is too bad so many fans of the movie have moved into what was likely a small, little, obscure area of Usenet. Maybe alt.fan.tolkien could be a place for fans of both the movie and books could converse and those more interested in discussing the original text could use rec.arts.books.tolkien. Ted ###### From: kueikutzu@-remove-hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Organization: Cryptic Message-ID: <925t2ugudt0c6a3ismnje89ffkd9fc2ob8@4ax.com> References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:28:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.88.91.139 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1009686497 12.88.91.139 (Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:28:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:28:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67924 On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:22:10 -0500, "Ted Martin" wrote: > >"Dale Hicks" wrote in message >news:MPG.1697f41f956ceb5198a2bf@news1.lig.bellsouth.net... >> In article <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net>, >> ojevind.lang@swipnet.se says... >> > >> > So, I set out to conduct an experiment - to build a counter-meme >designed to >> > make discussion participants see how they are acting as vectors to a >> > particularly silly and offensive meme...and perhaps to curtail the glib >Nazi >> > comparisons. >> >> Godwin was just f'ing with our heads, I say we string him up! >> >> -- >> Cranial Crusader dgh1138@bellsouth.net >> >Well, that seems a bit extreme. Nonetheless... > >The term "Taliban" seems an apt way to refer to how some original members of >this particular discussion group have reacted to the new fans by citing >Tolkien's work as some sort of bible which lesser mortals should never >question. > >It is too bad so many fans of the movie have moved into what was likely a >small, little, obscure area of Usenet. Maybe alt.fan.tolkien could be a >place for fans of both the movie and books could converse and those more >interested in discussing the original text could use rec.arts.books.tolkien. > > Ted > > As a recommendation of usenet imperialism (you have two ngs for discussing Tolkien, we have none, therefore we propose taking one away from you to discuss a movie) your gall is breathtaking. It also ignores the fact that both ngs ARE places for "fans of both the movie and books." What is being objected to are people who are fans of only the movie who have no interest at all in the books or the author (hint, Tolkien, as in "alt.fan.tolkien) Why not simply find an abandoned ng and appropriate it for your purposes rather than taking over a ng that had a respectable posting volume before it became engorged with the film? Or go to one of the several egroups which exist solely to discuss the film. Or go to http://boards.netscape.com/lordoftherings/brdlist.mbl?boardId=489250 to discuss the film. Those with an interest in the source material should stick around. Those not interested in the source material should go to more appropriate places. -- Sindamor Pandaturion [remove -remove- to reply] ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.28.10 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1009728201 212.151.28.10 (Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:03:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:03:21 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-28-10.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:05:05 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67835 Ted Martin wrote: [snip] >The term "Taliban" seems an apt way to refer to how some original members of >this particular discussion group have reacted to the new fans by citing >Tolkien's work as some sort of bible which lesser mortals should never >question. > >It is too bad so many fans of the movie have moved into what was likely a >small, little, obscure area of Usenet. Maybe alt.fan.tolkien could be a >place for fans of both the movie and books could converse and those more >interested in discussing the original text could use rec.arts.books.tolkien. Assimilate us you will? Resistance useless is? Öjevind Lång ###### From: "Ted Martin" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:46:00 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.230.117.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1009730766 64.230.117.123 (Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:46:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:46:06 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!xmission!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67887 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:dVGX7.2419$O5.6306@nntpserver.swip.net... > Ted Martin wrote: > > [snip] > > >The term "Taliban" seems an apt way to refer to how some original members > of > >this particular discussion group have reacted to the new fans by citing > >Tolkien's work as some sort of bible which lesser mortals should never > >question. > > > >It is too bad so many fans of the movie have moved into what was likely a > >small, little, obscure area of Usenet. Maybe alt.fan.tolkien could be a > >place for fans of both the movie and books could converse and those more > >interested in discussing the original text could use > rec.arts.books.tolkien. > > > Assimilate us you will? Resistance useless is? > > Öjevind Lång > > Hi, Nope, no "imperialism" or "assimulation". Just an idea. Talking about a movie in a discussion group prefixed with rec.arts.books could lead to people who only want to talk about the books to get uptight. Then they start shouting about what is and is not canon and blah blah blah. Have a Happy New Year Ted ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.26.234 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1009738627 212.151.26.234 (Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:57:07 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:57:07 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-26-234.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:58:51 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67832 Ted Martin wrote: >"Öjevind Lång" wrote in message >news:dVGX7.2419$O5.6306@nntpserver.swip.net... [snip] >> Assimilate us you will? Resistance useless is? >> >> Öjevind Lång >> > >Hi, > >Nope, no "imperialism" or "assimulation". > >Just an idea. Talking about a movie in a discussion group prefixed with >rec.arts.books could lead to people who only want to talk about the books to >get uptight. Then they start shouting about what is and is not canon and >blah blah blah. Well, RABT is perhaps a little more staid than AFT... in my opinion, both can accommodate discussions of the books as well as the films, though I must make it clear that the *primary* subject for discussion in both groups is the writer Tolkien, his life, friends and writings. Not that that has ever kept us from discussing, for example, Christian morality, abortions, the IRA, the Taliban, Bill Clinton, Libertarianism, WWII, Spanish Bishops or Scændinäviön letters. As for the Spanish Bishops - fear them! Avoid them! They are very eViol. Ask Flame of the West if you don't believe me. >Have a Happy New Year And the same to you! Öjevind ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:03:40 -0800 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu X-Trace: siamese.noc.ucla.edu 1009926249 12139 169.232.140.227 (1 Jan 2002 23:04:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:04:09 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68760 In article <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > As for the Spanish Bishops - fear them! Avoid them! They are very eViol. > Ask Flame of the West if you don't believe me. No one expects the Flame of the West! His chief weapon is surprise .... surprise and fear .... fear and surprise .... His two weapons are fear and surprise .... and ruthless efficiency .... His three weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency .... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope .... His four .... no .... Amongst his weapons .... Amongst his weaponry .... are such elements as fear, surprise .... I'll come in again. :) Bruce ###### From: Brian C. Ross Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 19:38:18 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net> Reply-To: brian-ross@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.2e.03 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 2 Jan 2002 00:38:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68510 >No one expects the Flame of the West! >His chief weapon is surprise .... surprise and fear .... fear and surprise .... >His two weapons are fear and surprise .... and ruthless efficiency .... >His three weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency .... and an >almost fanatical devotion to the Pope .... >His four .... no .... Amongst his weapons .... Amongst his weaponry .... >are such elements as fear, surprise .... I'll come in again. > > Don't forget your comfy chair. ###### From: "Ted Martin" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:58:29 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.230.113.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1009940301 64.230.113.160 (Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:58:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:58:21 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68745 "Bruce N. Hietbrink" wrote in message news:bnh-0101021503400001@houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu... > In article <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > > > As for the Spanish Bishops - fear them! Avoid them! They are very eViol. > > Ask Flame of the West if you don't believe me. > > No one expects the Flame of the West! > His chief weapon is surprise .... surprise and fear .... fear and surprise .... > His two weapons are fear and surprise .... and ruthless efficiency .... > His three weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency .... and an > almost fanatical devotion to the Pope .... > His four .... no .... Amongst his weapons .... Amongst his weaponry .... > are such elements as fear, surprise .... I'll come in again. > > :) > > Bruce Alright. I wasn't ... expecting the ... flame on the vest ... er ... Flame of the West ... ###### From: "Eric Quah" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 00:25:49 +0800 Organization: Unconfigured Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: j172.sgw45.jaring.my X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!infeed.jaring.my!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68554 Ted Martin wrote in message news:hHuY7.5380$4d7.2071778@news20.bellglobal.com... > > > Alright. > > I wasn't ... expecting the ... flame on the vest ... er ... Flame of the > West ... > > No one expects the Flame of the West!!!! Haaha! ###### From: Arwen Lune Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (Was Re: The Tolkien Taliban is far right!) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:46:56 +0100 Organization: Sith Academy Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <18345734uu8FHDJKDF957489357544535@sqasaer.net> <11nX7.2264$O5.5857@nntpserver.swip.net> <7sJX7.2453$O5.6313@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp10-102-59-62.dialup.zonnet.nl (62.59.102.10) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1009989993 24511364 62.59.102.10 (16 [74898]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp10-102-59-62.dialup.zonnet.NL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:68729 Via mysterious ways, a message from Bruce N. Hietbrink reached me on Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:03:40 -0800. This is what it read: > No one expects the Flame of the West! > His chief weapon is surprise .... surprise and fear .... fear > and surprise .... His two weapons are fear and surprise .... > and ruthless efficiency .... His three weapons are fear, > surprise and ruthless efficiency .... and an almost fanatical > devotion to the Pope .... His four .... no .... Amongst his > weapons .... Amongst his weaponry .... are such elements as > fear, surprise .... I'll come in again. There are places where you would get a hefty fine for that post ;-) Cheers, Arwen Lune -- "Bother" said Pooh. "Let's get the cave troll and trask those pesky intruders!" Arwen Lune | Arwen@meanandevil.co.uk | www.cuteandfluffy.co.uk