Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Gadsden) Reply-To: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk Subject: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:00 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Approved: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Ameol2 for Windows 2000 X-Approved: richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk X-Matt-Giwer: Nazi Scumbag Message-ID: X-Trace: 7049e0ca302100281e80014a60774318033f6602071f42882264620a3c2c9715 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:00:21 GMT Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!eurus Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67316 The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But every time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. There are Three Rings - Fire, Air and Water - and the "long homes" of the Silmarils are Air (Earendil), Fire (Maedhros) and Water (Maglor). Why was there not a ring of Earth? -- Richard Gadsden "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 28 Dec 2001 16:27:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Message-ID: <20011228112707.15992.00001795@mb-fc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67060 In article , richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Gadsden) writes: >The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But every >time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. There are Three Rings - >Fire, Air and Water - and the "long homes" of the Silmarils are Air >(Earendil), Fire (Maedhros) and Water (Maglor). Why was there not a ring >of Earth? With respect to the SIlmaril, I thought Maedhros was considered going into earth. Russ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20011228112707.15992.00001795@mb-fc.aol.com> Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:47:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1009561652 12.79.56.113 (Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:47:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:47:32 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67050 "Russ" wrote in message news:20011228112707.15992.00001795@mb-fc.aol.com... > With respect to the SIlmaril, I thought Maedhros was considered > going into earth. "And being in anguish and despair he [Maedhros] cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth. ... And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters." Silm, Of the Voyage of Earendil The first can be read to imply an 'Earth' association, but the second seems to concentrate on the 'fire' aspect of the earth's interior. I tend to go with the 'fire' reading myself, but this one is at least somewhat ambiguous. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:10:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1009563044 12.79.28.130 (Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:10:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:10:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67024 "Richard Gadsden" wrote in message news:memo.20011228160019.1528C@tg001a0001.blueyonder.co.uk... > The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But > every time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. Unless Tolkien was not 'using the traditional elements' at all. This oddity has been remarked on before, but there are only two examples (resting places of the Silmarils and the affinities of the Three Rings)... and one of those (the Silmaril that went into the fires of the >Earth<) arguably DOES have an 'Earth' component. That said, I can't recall any references to classical elementalism in any of Tolkien's texts. The correlation of the Three to Air, Water and Fire >could< just be coincidence. Or possibly Tolkien drew upon them more as 'mythic influences' than as a 'formalized science'... the lack of an 'Earth corollary' actually keeps Middle Earth metaphysics from being tied into an elemental framework. Alternatively, the 'earth' component could be considered an automatic as all three of the Rings were formed out of 'earth elements' - previous metals and stones. Or the Elves could have avoided too directly drawing upon 'Earth' because of the way that the very fabric of Middle-earth had been corrupted by the dispersal of Melkor's power... the so-called 'Morgoth ingredient' that led to 'all of Middle Earth being Morgoth's Ring'. ###### From: stug.taliesen@telerama.com (Stug) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:43:47 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c2cc999.884728328@news.stargate.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67099 On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:10:44 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock: > Or the Elves could have avoided too >directly drawing upon 'Earth' because of the way that the very fabric >of Middle-earth had been corrupted by the dispersal of Melkor's >power... the so-called 'Morgoth ingredient' that led to 'all of Middle >Earth being Morgoth's Ring'. I like this explanation best, that is, if, as you say, Tolkien even intended any correlation to classical elementalism at all. It makes the most sense in that context. Perhaps the One Ring can even be thought of as the 'Ring of Earth', having been forged in a volcano. That would make it a ring borne of the Morgoth-corrupted Earth more so than any other. Stug "Can a tale not conceived dramatically but epically, be dramatized -- unless the dramatizer is given or takes liberties, as an independent person? I feel you have had a very hard task." -- JRR Tolkien (Remove 'stug' from e-mail address to contact me) FAQ-like Guide to the Letters of JRRT: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Guide to U.S. Editions: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/editions.html ###### From: CLV1@balJUNKcab.ch (CleV) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:26:32 GMT Organization: ImproWare AG Network Services - Usenet News Service Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3c2cd521.4681748@news.balcab.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.catv12.balcab.ch X-Trace: news.imp.ch 1009571243 18032 213.200.12.156 (28 Dec 2001 20:27:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@imp.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:27:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!imp.ch!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67367 On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:00 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), richardgadsden@blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Gadsden) wrote: >The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But every >time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. There are Three Rings - >Fire, Air and Water - and the "long homes" of the Silmarils are Air >(Earendil), Fire (Maedhros) and Water (Maglor). Why was there not a ring >of Earth? The four elements are traditional only to classical (?) alchemy. Other cultures have had other numbers (eg, the chinese had five - water, air, wood, metal, earth (I think)) ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:47:55 Message-ID: <1009579675.9653.0.nnrp-12.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3c2cc999.884728328@news.stargate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1009579675 nnrp-12:9653 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: skim 0.8.4 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67574 stug.taliesen@telerama.com (Stug) wrote: >I like this explanation best, that is, if, as you say, Tolkien even >intended any correlation to classical elementalism at all. It makes >the most sense in that context. Perhaps the One Ring can even be >thought of as the 'Ring of Earth', having been forged in a volcano. >That would make it a ring borne of the Morgoth-corrupted Earth more so >than any other. Or the Ring of Earth would have been the one given to Durin - after all, who better to have it than a Dwarf? -- ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html -------------------- John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?" |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show :-------------------------------------------------------------------------) ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:39:13 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.ae X-Server-Date: 29 Dec 2001 04:39:50 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67604 Richard Gadsden wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But every >time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. There are Three Rings - >Fire, Air and Water - and the "long homes" of the Silmarils are Air >(Earendil), Fire (Maedhros) and Water (Maglor). Why was there not a ring >of Earth? I don't think any Elf would be satisfied to get the "Ring of Dirt". :-) As for Maedhros, his Silmaril went into the earth. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: 28 Dec 2001 21:03:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20011228112707.15992.00001795@mb-fc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1009602220 2056 127.0.0.1 (29 Dec 2001 05:03:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 2001 05:03:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67519 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:... > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20011228112707.15992.00001795@mb-fc.aol.com... > > > With respect to the SIlmaril, I thought Maedhros was considered > > going into earth. > > "And being in anguish and despair he [Maedhros] cast himself into a > gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that > he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth. > ... > And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: > one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the > world, and one in the deep waters." > Silm, Of the Voyage of Earendil > > The first can be read to imply an 'Earth' association, but the > second seems to concentrate on the 'fire' aspect of the earth's > interior. I tend to go with the 'fire' reading myself, but this one > is at least somewhat ambiguous. It's Valar-based. Recall the three most powerful male Valar: Manwe (air), Ulmo (water), and Aule (earth). There isn't actually a 'fire' Vala, unless you want to count Morgoth. I suspect that the Silmarils end in the realms of the three strongest Valar, if you're looking for symbolism. Shermanlee ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:10:36 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 183.137.56.203.cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1009617093 9798 203.56.137.183 (29 Dec 2001 09:11:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 2001 09:11:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67548 On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:00 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Richard Gadsden allegedly said the following... > The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But every > time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. There are Three Rings - > Fire, Air and Water - and the "long homes" of the Silmarils are Air > (Earendil), Fire (Maedhros) and Water (Maglor). Why was there not a ring > of Earth? It could be because of Morgoth's spreading of his spirit throughout the earth made the Elves apprehensive when dealing with that element. Most Elves also seem to have problems with being underground (cf: Legolas and the shining caves), so it seems to be a widespread problem. -- Donald Shepherd 100,000 lemmings can't be wrong. ###### From: "Peter J Charlton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What had Tolkien got against Earth? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:04:03 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.54.100.169 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1009692238 210.54.100.169 (Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:03:58 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:03:58 NZDT Organization: Xtra Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:67804 "Richard Gadsden" wrote in message news:memo.20011228160019.1528C@tg001a0001.blueyonder.co.uk... > The traditional four elements are Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But every > time that Tolkien uses them, he misses out Earth. There are Three Rings - > Fire, Air and Water - and the "long homes" of the Silmarils are Air > (Earendil), Fire (Maedhros) and Water (Maglor). Why was there not a ring > of Earth? Each of the Three was set with a precious stone - ruby, sapphire, diamond. A rather prosaic explanation for the absence of a Ring of Earth is the lack of an appropriately coloured precious stone. Topaz might be the closest but it just doesn't have the right sort of.. er.. ring to it. Peter.