From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:15:50 -0500 Lines: 61 Message-ID: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaOE8jq/mW5zZiuSKm0vX7p9SiI8wqI5HSpQG509JYH65i4f6r/4QfI X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2001 01:11:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63592 Now tell me... does the following quotation from the Daily Express http://www.tlotr.com/article_stuff/articles/articles_theexpress_121001.htm ...remind you of any particular characterizations from LotR? [the article follows up Father John Tolkien's bitter sadness over CJRT's having to "go into hiding" in France, and the Father's supposed reluctance to follow suit, with a description of CJRT's mansion in Paris and TWO mansions in Aix-en-Provence...] "Despite their vast wealth, the Tolkiens are angry about The Fellowship Of The Ring. Why? 'First, they'll get no money out of it -- and it will make millions and millions,' says someone who knows the family. 'They are very careful about money. Second, they hate it even before they've seen it because the project is beyond their control.' "And control is very important to them." I'm sorry, but I do not posess a handy copy of the books here. Can someone please provide me with a cite to which this particular work of literature might be REMOTELY, as JRRT put it, "applicable"? Or is it one big escapist game that we can all play to pretend that we are not responsible for the harm we do others, and the sickness that infests the minds of those who worship only the past, who have what Tolkien called the great Elvish weakness -- "change as something to be regretted"? "In the opinion of David Day... 'Their father's work is a sacred text to them and they feel that anything that doesn't come from them, the Tolkiens, can only ruin it'... [Day] laughs at the furious letter he recieved from Christopher Tolkien calling him 'an ass' and 'more like a burglar than a writer' [!] ... "In the past two months alone, stores have sold more copies of The Lord of the Rings than the typical annual totals before JRR's death." The article goes on to describe the positions of film-makers working under CJRT for two films commissioned BY THE TOLKIEN ESTATE. The fim-makers either refuse to talk about their experiences (neither film was released) or else describe how CJRT and his daughter 'have absolutely no feel for film', put impossible artistic straight jackets on the directors, left the more cooperative of the two ventures out in the cold after 15 years of work (!) and regard any film adaptation as 'common and base'. Let's face it, these people, like many nouveau-riche, are unimaginative, personally repulsive, Tory control freaks who have, like Saruman, lost sight of their original mission. Not only are they due for a re-read of Tolkien's original LOTR, (especially the parts about Sauron, but also Tolkien's more theological writings on the relationship of creativity to morality) but they are also in my mind due for a re-read of the New Testament. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." This is, of course, a probablilistic scenario, I suppose. The family described above gives you some idea why it is nevertheless true. -Ber ###### From: nospam@sneezy.com (Don Jow) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:34:31 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA Lines: 6 Message-ID: <3c1980e5.50351581@news.vt.edu> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hc6523be1.dhcp.vt.edu X-Trace: solaris.cc.vt.edu 1008304648 939 198.82.59.225 (14 Dec 2001 04:37:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:37:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63326 On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:15:50 -0500, wrob wrote: >"And control is very important to them." > Yes indeed. It has become "their precious". Gollum, gollum. ###### From: Highway of Death Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:37:29 -0800 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.532 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.27.36.91 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.27.36.91 X-Trace: post.usenet.com 1008332826 63.27.36.91 (14 Dec 2001 06:27:06 -0600) Organization: usenet.com http://www.usenet.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. The #1 Usenet Service on the Planet! Lines: 17 X-Comments: This message was posted through Usenet.com's, FREE publicly accessible Usenet Server - "post.usenet.com" X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Usenet.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!local-out.newsfeeds.com!post.usenet.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63514 **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** If what you are saying is all true, then the Tolkien family is a bunch of shitheads, but I never worshipped THEM. And I don't worship JRR Tolkien. I only admire him. I go for years without even thinking of JRR Tolkien. Important question: why won't the Tolkien family make any money off of the movies? Has their copyright expired or what? Are Tolkien's books yet out of copyright? If not, when will they be? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ###### Message-ID: <3C1A7D49.72903820@optushome.com.au> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:29:31 +1100 From: baden Reply-To: bchant@optushome.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.190.197 X-Trace: 1008368816 17929 203.164.190.197 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!210.49.20.119.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63384 Highway of Death wrote: > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > > If what you are saying is all true, then the Tolkien family is a bunch > of shitheads, but I never worshipped THEM. And I don't worship JRR > Tolkien. I only admire him. I go for years without even thinking of > JRR Tolkien. > > Important question: why won't the Tolkien family make any money off of > the movies? Has their copyright expired or what? Are Tolkien's books > yet out of copyright? If not, when will they be? Cause JRRT cashed in before he died. I assume Jackson acquired the rights from whoever JRRT sold them to originally. So they get diddly because JRRT beat them to it. cheers, Baden > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** > http://www.usenet.com > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- personal site: http://www.members.optushome.com.au/bchant/ business site: http://www.inwestdesign.com ###### From: "Cam" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:24:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3c1ac6cf$0$43572$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net> Organization: CoreComm LTD - Chicago, IL NNTP-Posting-Host: c734b9aa.news.corecomm.net X-Trace: DXC=MNl<9E@7BBdDh[S> wrote in message news:eeej1u40r0ae46cei72ctnomi2tqihun51@4ax.com... > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > > > If what you are saying is all true, then the Tolkien family is a bunch > of shitheads, but I never worshipped THEM. And I don't worship JRR > Tolkien. I only admire him. I go for years without even thinking of > JRR Tolkien. > > Important question: why won't the Tolkien family make any money off of > the movies? Has their copyright expired or what? Are Tolkien's books > yet out of copyright? If not, when will they be? > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** > http://www.usenet.com > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:22:40 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1ac6cf$0$43572$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 18.137.56.203.cns.nq.net X-Trace: gnamma.connect.com.au 1008397415 11662 203.56.137.18 (15 Dec 2001 06:23:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 2001 06:23:35 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63493 On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:24:13 -0800, Cam allegedly said the following... > Copyright lasts, the lifetime of the person that created the "whatever" and > 50 years after he dies I believe. In the US, isn't it extended every 25 years to stop Walt Disney's works from coming out of copyright? -- Donald Shepherd "There is no such thing as the Queen's English. The property has gone into the hands of a joint stock company and we own the bulk of the shares!" - Mark Twain (sourced from Usenet) ###### From: Peter Gray Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:52:34 -0000 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1ac6cf$0$43572$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1005.duckdive.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1008435245 15414 62.25.155.237 (15 Dec 2001 16:54:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 2001 16:54:05 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63492 In article <3c1ac6cf$0$43572$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net>, cam@.nospam.core.com says... > Copyright lasts, the lifetime of the person that created the "whatever" and > 50 years after he dies I believe. > It used to be 50 years for most things (excluding photographs) in the UK. Since the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, it's 70 years now in the UK. So a long wait before LotR goes out of copyright! -- Pete Gray while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";} ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Lines: 60 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:02:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1008543758 12.79.23.206 (Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:02:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:02:38 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63844 "wrob" wrote in message news:3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com... > "Despite their vast wealth, the Tolkiens are angry about The > Fellowship Of The Ring. Why? 'First, they'll get no money out of it > -- and it will make millions and millions,' says someone who knows > the family. Problem number one - this is false. They WILL make money off of the film. > 'They are very careful about money. Second, they hate it even > before they've seen it because the project is beyond their control.' Problem number two - none of them have said that they hate it. Indeed, Christopher specifically said that he didn't. Only that he, like his father before him, did not think that it was suited for dramatization. Which every pro-film ranter on this group backs up every time they insist that Jackson HAD to change it because the book could not be filmed as written. > "And control is very important to them." Problem number three - this quotation clearly betrays the bias of the 'anonymous sources' for this article. There are numerous such quotations attributed to unnamed 'people in the know'. > "In the opinion of David Day... 'Their father's work is a sacred > text to them and they feel that anything that doesn't come from > them, the Tolkiens, can only ruin it'... [Day] laughs at the > furious letter he recieved from Christopher Tolkien calling him 'an > ass' and 'more like a burglar than a writer' [!] ... Problem number four - David Day IS an ass and more like a burglar than a writer. That they would even think of asking that hack continues to demonstrate how very biased the entire article is. > Let's face it, these people, like many nouveau-riche, are > unimaginative, personally repulsive, Tory control freaks who have, > like Saruman, lost sight of their original mission. Uh huh... and you derived this from an article quoting such fair and impartial sources as David Day? I'd suggest that just maybe some people have an axe to grind? Funny how they didn't ask Humphrey Carpenter... Wayne Hammond... Christina Scull... Douglas Anderson... Carl Hostetter... Arden Smith... Patrick Wynne... or any member of the Tolkien family OTHER than the one said to be on the outs with the rest? Are all people with the name of Tolkien perfect and wonderful? No. Heck, look at Simon sniping at the rest of the family because he doesn't like the percentage of the estate he got in comparison to his half-siblings 'who did not even know their grandfather'. However, extrapolating from that to 'they are evil Sauron-like greed heads' is just as much imprinting personal opinion onto them as assuming that everything they do is perfect. One clearly biased article does not 'Holy Truth' make. ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:25:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.198.212 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52 1008545137 192.168.198.212 (Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:25:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:25:37 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63888 On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:02:38 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"wrob" wrote in message >news:3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com... > >> "Despite their vast wealth, the Tolkiens are angry about The >> Fellowship Of The Ring. Why? 'First, they'll get no money out of it >> -- and it will make millions and millions,' says someone who knows >> the family. > >Problem number one - this is false. They WILL make money off of the >film. They are *already* making money off the films. (Been to a bookstore lately?) Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 16 Dec 2001 23:45:41 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 7 Message-ID: <9vjbn5$pef$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1008546341 26063 128.214.205.14 (16 Dec 2001 23:45:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 2001 23:45:41 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63887 In alt.fan.tolkien Conrad Dunkerson wrote: snip > Problem number four - David Day IS an ass ;) k ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:10:38 -0500 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3C1D460A.FB6E1C89@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZyGQDZIAOe7Cj9Fna7uOSQ+anS3rrg+LILTciHM6ygFokOlSVi7xhP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 2001 01:12:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63792 "Ronald O. Christian" wrote: > >Problem number one - this is false. They WILL make money off of the > >film. > > They are *already* making money off the films. > > (Been to a bookstore lately?) But Conrad's point I think is that they also get a percentage of the film revenue. The story of JRRT's selling off the movie rights for a pittance is false. -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34 ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:47:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1008553631 65.9.51.64 (Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:47:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:47:11 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63865 On 12/16/01 6:02 PM, in article iK9T7.167780$WW.10532209@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > Uh huh... and you derived this from an article quoting such fair > and impartial sources as David Day? I'd suggest that just maybe > some people have an axe to grind? Funny how they didn't ask Humphrey > Carpenter... Wayne Hammond... Christina Scull... Douglas Anderson... > Carl Hostetter... Arden Smith... Patrick Wynne... or any member of > the Tolkien family OTHER than the one said to be on the outs with the > rest? Indeed. There are many angry, jealous, arrogant people, including some well-known (and some not so well-known) names on this list, who are always only too happy to paint the Tolkiens and the Tolkien Estate in the worst possible light, based entirely on insinuation and fabrication. The portrait of the family and the Estate in general, and of Christopher Tolkien in particular, could hardly be further removed from my own personal experience. They have been unstintingly generous to us and to the other Tolkien scholars they've worked with, and unfailingly kind to me personally. Any true fan or scholar of Tolkien's work should have nothing but gratitude in their hearts for the Estate, and for Christopher in particular, without whose selfless expenditure of _decades_ of his life in producing _The Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_, _The History of Middle-earth_, etc., and support of the efforts of other Tolkien scholars and editors, this field of study and appreciation would greatly impoverished. ###### From: nospam@nospam.spam (AC) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: <3c1d5010.8275594@news2.randori.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Lines: 27 Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:57:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!easynews!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63833 I greatly appreciate Christopher Tolkien's allowing laymen like myself the opportunity to read the material that his father left behind. I cannot attest to his personality, any more than anybody else that I have not met, and am at least wise enough to know that the entertainment press is not to be trusted in this, or any other story for that matter. I cannot imagine someone who would go through sixty or seventy years worth of writing to produce books of dwindling general popularity just out of greed. I feel that he completed his father's wish that the Silmarillion be published, but in doing so, was forced by the very nature of JRRT's material to take what he saw as too many liberties. To explain this, he needed to start at the beginning (the Book of Lost Tales) and trace the evolution until the final years of his father's life. I just recently finished re-reading the entire History of Middle Earth (took me a year), except for the Peoples of Middle Earth which is one of my Christmas presents (and the one I can assure you I am looking forward to reading most eagerly), and value his essays. I know there are those that claim that he is just profiteering, but there must be a better way to make a living (and I doubt he has made that much money off the History of Middle Earth series) than spending a substantial part of your life bringing notes and old manuscripts that are frequently nearly illegible to a point where they are publishable. I, for one, am greatful. --- AaronC ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:20:51 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63912 On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:47:11 GMT, "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: >On 12/16/01 6:02 PM, in article >iK9T7.167780$WW.10532209@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Conrad >Dunkerson" wrote: > >> Uh huh... and you derived this from an article quoting such fair >> and impartial sources as David Day? I'd suggest that just maybe >> some people have an axe to grind? Funny how they didn't ask Humphrey >> Carpenter... Wayne Hammond... Christina Scull... Douglas Anderson... >> Carl Hostetter... Arden Smith... Patrick Wynne... or any member of >> the Tolkien family OTHER than the one said to be on the outs with the >> rest? > >Indeed. There are many angry, jealous, arrogant people, including some >well-known (and some not so well-known) names on this list, who are always >only too happy to paint the Tolkiens and the Tolkien Estate in the worst >possible light, based entirely on insinuation and fabrication. > >The portrait of the family and the Estate in general, and of Christopher >Tolkien in particular, could hardly be further removed from my own personal >experience. They have been unstintingly generous to us and to the other >Tolkien scholars they've worked with, and unfailingly kind to me personally. > >Any true fan or scholar of Tolkien's work should have nothing but gratitude >in their hearts for the Estate, and for Christopher in particular, without >whose selfless expenditure of _decades_ of his life in producing _The >Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_, _The History of Middle-earth_, etc., and >support of the efforts of other Tolkien scholars and editors, this field of >study and appreciation would greatly impoverished. > Thank you, Carl. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If I'm not speaking Ada then I'm not speaking for my employer. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 17 Dec 2001 23:21:41 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 81 Message-ID: <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008627704 529 10.0.3.2 (17 Dec 2001 22:21:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 2001 22:21:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63937 "Carl F. Hostetter" writes: > On 12/16/01 6:02 PM, in article > iK9T7.167780$WW.10532209@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Conrad > Dunkerson" wrote: > > including some > well-known (and some not so well-known) names on this list, who are always > only too happy to paint the Tolkiens and the Tolkien Estate in the worst > possible light, based entirely on insinuation and fabrication. Assuming I am catching your "some well-known" reference right (the guy from the Ardalambion website), IIRC he based his statements you call "bad painting" on him (and others) being denied access to the writings (I assume linguistic material to expand the site in his case). If that is so, it would not be "insinuation and fabrication". IIRC it was something to do with an estate policy that they will only allow access to researchers that only make statements about the stuff read, but not publish the passages they are commenting on (and note that publishing raw data to back up statements is something any decent scientist does, not doing it is considered quackery, of the David Day class). And given that the remaining unpublished stuff does not look like it will make lots of money (even detectable amounts relative to what TH and LoTR make), I doubt it to be greed that lead to that policy. So that leaves only control as motivation. Sort of "this is my toy". Perhaps you want to comment on your view of this fight. IIRC you hinted you have a view, but did not publish it, but then demanded that people believe your word, and not his (who gave reasons). > and for Christopher in particular, without > whose selfless expenditure of _decades_ of his life in producing _The > Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_, _The History of Middle-earth_, etc. So selfless Christopher was not either. For one he through royalties for TH and LoTR has recieved more money than he will ever spend (not to mention more than 90% of all people will ever see in their lives), so he basically has all the time normal people spend working for an living to do what he wants to. And the problem of not getting bored, of spending that time on something. He has stated (in UT or HoME) that he enjoys searching through and ordering his fathers literary inheritance, so this is at least partially hobby work for him, an hobby for someone who can be an full time hobbyist. As myself a person who one did such no-work-live-from-bank-account for 3.5 years (and am about to do it again for 3) I can assume you that that makes a _very_ comfortable life. Most people would be envious of it, it is not "poor Christopher". And: what would he have been without doing Silm, UT and HoME? Some unknown literature researcher or professor, writing and publishing scholary work, read by next to no one, for some small university salary, irrelevantly small to an person with his other income. Instead with Silm, UT and HoME he has 100s of thousands of readers, fame, feedback, the satisfaction to be wanted. And he can take as much time as he wants, as he has all the money and the readers are gratefull for every tidbit. Some great "selfless" sacrifice that. While I do not share the "greed-heads" view painted in the Subject: line, he definitely is also not some poor enslaved-to-the-readers bastard who needs our pitty. So perhaps your view painted here is similarly too much on the rosy side? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 17 Dec 2001 23:37:21 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 73 Message-ID: <6ud71d4gny.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1d5010.8275594@news2.randori.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008628642 539 10.0.3.2 (17 Dec 2001 22:37:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 2001 22:37:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63938 nospam@nospam.spam (AC) writes: > I cannot imagine someone who would go through sixty or seventy years > worth of writing to produce books of dwindling general popularity just > out of greed. From JRRTs death (early 197x) to Silm publishing (1977). Makes about 5 years. Factor 10 below your "sixty or seventy". > I feel that he completed his father's wish that the > Silmarillion be published, Perhaps. I feel that it was more his own wish, first to himself read the story (that lead to sorting it) and then (after seeing how good it was) to see it finished and published. Do not underestimante the motivations of people who have all the time in the world and no need to work for money. Personal satisfaction becomes the main motivation. > but in doing so, was forced by the very > nature of JRRT's material to take what he saw as too many liberties. Yes, like PJ doing his film :-). > To explain this, he needed to start at the beginning (the Book of Lost > Tales) and trace the evolution until the final years of his father's > life. But he was not forced to do explain. No one knew of the "fixing up" until he wrote about it. He himself stated that he enjoyed doing this research. So he did it, for himself. And then published that also because he wanted it out. > I just recently finished re-reading the entire History of > Middle Earth (took me a year), except for the Peoples of Middle Earth > which is one of my Christmas presents (and the one I can assure you I > am looking forward to reading most eagerly), and value his essays. They are sure nice. And PoME is one of the best of the 12. > I know there are those that claim that he is just profiteering, but > there must be a better way to make a living (and I doubt he has made > that much money off the History of Middle Earth series) You can eliminate the "I doubt". Relative to his part of the TH and LoTR royalites, anything from Silm and particularly UT/HoME is totally insignificant. That was no a work for money. That was purely for the fun of it and possibly also for the fame. > than spending > a substantial part of your life That would be Silm (1977) to PoME (1996), so 19 years. > publishable. I, for one, am greatful. Greatfull one should be, but not worshipfull, which some people are, and not bitter (as some are, as result from seeing the worshippers not fit reality?). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:59:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1008629945 65.9.51.64 (Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:59:05 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:59:05 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64040 On 12/17/01 5:21 PM, in article 6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch, "Neil Franklin" wrote: > Assuming I am catching your "some well-known" reference right (the guy > from the Ardalambion website), Your assumption is false. To my knowledge, Helge Fauskanger has never posted on this list. > IIRC it was something to do with an estate policy that they will only > allow access to researchers that only make statements about the stuff > read, but not publish the passages they are commenting on The policy of the various Tolkien _archives_, as for most academic archives, is that readers must sign an agreement not to publish their notes without the permission of the Tolkien Estate. This is a _condition_ of access, easy to meet. No one is being denied access; they choose to accept this condition, or not. As for the materials not thus accessible at the archives, access to these materials is at the discretion of the Tolkien Estate. > And given that the remaining unpublished stuff does not look like it > will make lots of money (even detectable amounts relative to what TH > and LoTR make), I doubt it to be greed that lead to that policy. So > that leaves only control as motivation. The Estate wishes to control whether, where, when, and how the material of which they are the appointed guardians are published. That is rather the purpose of a literary Estate. Tolkien created the Estate; it was his wish that it have this control. Why should anyone think ill of it? > Perhaps you want to comment on your view of this fight. IIRC you > hinted you have a view, but did not publish it, but then demanded that > people believe your word, and not his (who gave reasons). U do not RC. >> and for Christopher in particular, without >> whose selfless expenditure of _decades_ of his life in producing _The >> Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_, _The History of Middle-earth_, etc. > > So selfless Christopher was not either. This is nonsense. As you yourself note, there was certainly no financial incentive for Christopher to spend so much of his later years on this difficult, grinding work. Nor did he have to see it through to the press. He chose to do so because he knew that there are serious scholars of his father's writings that want to be able to study their evolution. Sounds pretty selfless to me. > will ever see in their lives), so he basically has all the time normal > people spend working for an living to do what he wants to. And the > problem of not getting bored, of spending that time on something. Christopher's job as literary executor -- which continues to this day -- requires a great deal of Christopher's time and studied attention. He does _not_ have a life of unfettered leisure, despite having just turned 77. Would you be working so hard at that age if you were independently wealthy? > He has stated (in UT or HoME) that he enjoys searching through and > ordering his fathers literary inheritance, so this is at least > partially hobby work for him, an hobby for someone who can be an > full time hobbyist. I enjoy it too. But that doesn't mean that it isn't hard work, or that life's other demands don't weigh on the process. You clearly have a grossly distorted, and woefully uninformed, view of what Christopher has done, and does still, out of service to his father and his father's legacy. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:41:05 -0500 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaALVJTkg4yPkWf6Oz5rHQViG+lH388HZegmwcNwDmMnMOZNYjUrR6l X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 05:15:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63954 "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: > You clearly have a grossly distorted, and woefully uninformed, view of what > Christopher has done, and does still, out of service to his father and his > father's legacy. Neil has an agenda of his own. He is an opponent of the concept of intellectual property, and apparently extends that to the notion of private archives. -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34 ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:29:58 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64081 On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:59:05 GMT, "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: >You clearly have a grossly distorted, and woefully uninformed, view of what >Christopher has done, and does still, out of service to his father and his >father's legacy. Carl, It is truly amazing and disheartening, at least to me, how many of these Orcs are out there. Although I have never had any personal contact with any member of the Tolkien family, I can still see and appreciate what Christopher has done for us and for his father's legacy. In my opinion he deserves every farthing he gets and then some. He is a great son of a great man! the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Please don't congregate in groups. ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:51:17 -0500 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYezMAo4tiafN3s+ta8yCi67SWGXnB+5YEYFEyXYKLqngvQg/Hw17GI X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 06:47:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63948 Flame of the West wrote: > > "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: > > > You clearly have a grossly distorted, and woefully uninformed, view of what > > Christopher has done, and does still, out of service to his father and his > > father's legacy. > > Neil has an agenda of his own. He is an opponent of the > concept of intellectual property, and apparently extends > that to the notion of private archives. Flame, it's certainly true that myths of the sort Tolkien believed in do not flourish at all (are not permitted to exist actually) in an intellectual property climate. (Especially one with a 70 year limit). But then as I understand it you're one of the folks in the "it's not supposed to be serious, just escapist" camp? I am more concerned with the fact that the Tolkiens have totally lost perspective on life in general. If I got anything out of reading their fathers' works, it certainly seems to be more than what they got out of it. It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors killed Beowulf. -Ber ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 04:27:27 -0500 Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3C1F0BF0.4D78A0AD@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbet2SUGLJ+zmkZUViCLo9CvAXZlEPq6MI1yR/WOy/oTmv+l1HT0s86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 09:30:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63947 wrob wrote: > Flame, it's certainly true that myths of the sort Tolkien believed > in do not flourish at all (are not permitted to exist actually) in > an intellectual property climate. (Especially one with a 70 year limit). Not sure what you mean here. Surely Tolkien's "myths" (he did not actually believe in them) are flourishing very well despite being under copyright. > But then as I understand it you're one of the folks in the "it's not > supposed to be serious, just escapist" camp? Again, not sure what you mean. I think LotR is "serious" in that it has some serious things to say. And yet it is also "escapist." > I am more concerned with the fact that the Tolkiens have totally lost > perspective on life in general. If I got anything out of reading their > fathers' works, it certainly seems to be more than what they got out of > it. It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's > own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors killed > Beowulf. In what sense is Beowulf dead? Wasn't it recently retranslated to critical acclaim and a surprising measure of commercial success? As for "the Tolkiens" (by which you mean Christopher and his siblings, not Simon), I'm not assuming that the sensationalist accounts of them are true. They are certainly concened about their privacy (with good reason). But it is difficult to know how much they got out their father's works without knowing more about them personally than most of us do. As for Christopher himself, I would not describe what he has done as "mindless death-by-analysis." If anything, such overzealous analysis takes place here in RABT and AFT, but with little appreciable damage to JRRT's work. Christopher has performed the role of literary executor, presenting a large measure of what his father left behind. Some people enjoy the "illusion of depth" in LotR, and so it's best for them to avoid Christopher's work, for it would "kill" the myth for them. Others (including me) enjoy knowing more about Tolkien's world. To each his own. -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34 ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 19 Dec 2001 00:40:49 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 205 Message-ID: <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008718851 830 10.0.3.2 (18 Dec 2001 23:40:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 23:40:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64118 "Carl F. Hostetter" writes: > On 12/17/01 5:21 PM, in article 6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch, "Neil > Franklin" wrote: > > > Assuming I am catching your "some well-known" reference right (the guy > > from the Ardalambion website), > > Your assumption is false. To my knowledge, Helge Fauskanger has never posted > on this list. I did not say anything about him posting here. You said: ---------- Indeed. There are many angry, jealous, arrogant people, including some well-known (and some not so well-known) names on this list, who are always ... experience. They have been unstintingly generous to us and to the other Tolkien scholars they've worked with, and unfailingly kind to me personally. ---------- And I was pointing to him as one well known name here (from his website, not posting), who has been referred to by you as having an run-in with Christopher over access to texts, in an earlier thread. I managed to find the post I was thinking of: --------- From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:31:33 GMT Message-ID: <200920010231367343%Carl.Hostetter@home.com> linguistic papers to a small, proven, and previously constituted group of scholars and editors. Most of my colleagues were studying Tolkien's languages before Messrs. Salo and Fauskanger were born; and we had all --------- Of course you could also be referring someone else, that is why I asked if you were referring to that old post. > > IIRC it was something to do with an estate policy that they will only > > allow access to researchers that only make statements about the stuff > > read, but not publish the passages they are commenting on > > The policy of the various Tolkien _archives_, as for most academic archives, > is that readers must sign an agreement not to publish their notes without > the permission of the Tolkien Estate. This is a _condition_ of access, easy No wonder literary science is nowhere up where the natural sciences are, with such an attitude towards the reseach objects as standard. > to meet. No one is being denied access; they choose to accept this > condition, or not. Neat self-contradiction. As the second part clears says that they are being conditionally denied, which is of course denying access. :-) > The Estate wishes to control whether, where, when, and how the material of > which they are the appointed guardians are published. That is rather the > purpose of a literary Estate. Tolkien created the Estate; it was his wish > that it have this control. Guarding against damage or loss is one thing. Hindering researchers is an entirely other. If Tolkien realy intended the later, than that is bad, doubly so as he himself researched literature. > Why should anyone think ill of it? Any person who thinks that it is better that objects of public interest and/or worthy of scientific investigation should be available - for anyone who wishes to do so. Subject possibly to restrictions given from preserving the objects integrity (say only in climatically controlled rooms, special handling procedures, only photocopies unless researching the originals physical state). This view that open is better is the ideology that in the last 400 years has created todays society based on peer-reviewed knowledge and technology. The system without which we would still be living in late-medieval circumstances. One only needs to compare the messes of "everyone jealously gard their little bit" in politics or business with the progress of "share and build up" in science to see which is superior. Not surprisingly there are quite a large amount people who have this stance. Actually roughly everyone interested in societies development, outside of the "we could possibly lose money, or power, no matter how little" commercial arts world. > > Perhaps you want to comment on your view of this fight. IIRC you > > hinted you have a view, but did not publish it, but then demanded that > > people believe your word, and not his (who gave reasons). > > U do not RC. As I found the post I went and looked up. Seems to be you dislike text getting to anyone else but Christophers "small proven group" of insiders. So I miss-remembered the "not publish view" bit. > >> and for Christopher in particular, without > >> whose selfless expenditure of _decades_ of his life in producing _The > > > > So selfless Christopher was not either. > > This is nonsense. As you yourself note, there was certainly no financial > incentive for Christopher to spend so much of his later years on this > difficult, grinding work. No _financial_ incentive. But as I wrote: people who have more money than they need are (usually) not motivated by finance. They _are_ motivated just as strongly by other rewards, such as personal gratification. > Nor did he have to see it through to the press. He > chose to do so because he knew that there are serious scholars of his > father's writings that want to be able to study their evolution. As the "serious scholars" could just go and read the originals (or not, if he does not want them to), I doubt him to be printing it for them. A mass market book points to him aiming at the many thousands of Tolkien fans wo will never go to the archives. And the thought of helping many people and _recieving_their_gratitude_ is a _very_ large motivator. > Sounds pretty selfless to me. Recieving gratitude is selfless? Since when that? I think you are ignoring an large motivator. > > will ever see in their lives), so he basically has all the time normal > > people spend working for an living to do what he wants to. And the > > problem of not getting bored, of spending that time on something. > > Christopher's job as literary executor -- which continues to this day -- > requires a great deal of Christopher's time and studied attention. He does > _not_ have a life of unfettered leisure, Leisure with nothing to do is pretty boring. So I sure hope he has something to do. > Would you be working so hard at that age if you were independently wealthy? No "if" needed here. I _am_ fairly independatly wealthy. I can at least afford to only work a job for a few years and then take a few off. And in the breaks I do work, unpaid, on projects for the general good, for the fun and satisfaction of doing it. See "Projects" on my website if you want the details. And I have no intension to just sit around after 65. Brains do not stop functioning, just because old laws derived from the days of predominantly physical work declares their possessor now out-of-workforce. So, if the work is fun, definitely. Fun work _is_ its own reward. > > He has stated (in UT or HoME) that he enjoys searching through and > > ordering his fathers literary inheritance, so this is at least > > partially hobby work for him, an hobby for someone who can be an > > full time hobbyist. > > I enjoy it too. But that doesn't mean that it isn't hard work, or that No one said that is is not hard work. What I was critisizing is the notation, that he has just got to be an selfless person to do it (and is beyond any critisism because of that). Like every person he has his own interests and is surely looking for them. And if doing his work were not of some personal interest to him, I _strongly_ doubt he would have any problem finding some professional to be the executor for such famous and prestiguous texts. That he does not do so, clearly shows that he has an personal interest (and from that satisfaction) in doing it himself. That kills the "selfless" theory for being motivationally unsound. > You clearly have a grossly distorted, and woefully uninformed, view of what I have read Silm, UT and all 12 HoME. Including all his comments in them. If that is not enough then point out additional sources. > Christopher has done, and does still, out of service to his father and his > father's legacy. Not just service. Also personal interest. One does not do what he has done just because one was told "you are going to do it, basta". In such an "it has got to be done" situation one does as little as possible, such as hire an professional to do the work for one (given that money is no limit here). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:31:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1008721913 65.9.51.64 (Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:31:53 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:31:53 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64210 Mr. Franklin, you really need to take a long, hard reality check. If you can't see even the most basic distinctions, such as that between an author's copyrighted writings (published or unpublished) and public domain information concerning the natural world, then you have removed yourself so far from any common basis for discussion that it is utterly futile even to attempt such. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:05:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.109 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1008723908 12.79.29.109 (Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:05:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:05:08 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!telocity-west!TELOCITY!hub1.nntpserver.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64167 "wrob" wrote in message news:3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com... > Flame, it's certainly true that myths of the sort Tolkien believed > in do not flourish at all (are not permitted to exist actually) in > an intellectual property climate. (Especially one with a 70 year > limit). Ack! Beowulf! My Beowulf texts all just went blank... and my Kalevala, not a single word on any of the pages. It's terrible! All of the myths have ceased to exist because they aren't permitted in an intellectual property climate. My Tolkien books must all be blank too, but I haven't had the heart to look! Oh what a black day when they invented copyright! Um... yeah. The myths are just fine. The ability to plagiarize them is somewhat hampered, but that doesn't wipe out the existing myths or prevent the development of new ones. > It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's > own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors > killed Beowulf. Don't be silly... Beowulf was killed by a dragon. Everyone knows that. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:12:07 -0500 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C1FE966.1D47BCBD@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ2KHQiwuBoKVVxgsnl6/SQlvcpJfxhqE0c67KON2xGwi4pmoP0UM95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 01:13:55 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64129 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's > > own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors > > killed Beowulf. > > Don't be silly... Beowulf was killed by a dragon. Everyone knows > that. Perhaps wrob regards the dragon as a predecessor of Tolkien. -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34 ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:23:09 -0500 Lines: 79 Message-ID: <3C20324B.9215A9DD@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <3C1F0BF0.4D78A0AD@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYbpU9nwEDOiB8gOblq5qmKNf1sNQcI7kCtAeCh+Q2OJh584VjFjiq5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 06:19:26 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64326 Flame of the West wrote: > > wrob wrote: > > > Flame, it's certainly true that myths of the sort Tolkien believed > > in do not flourish at all (are not permitted to exist actually) in > > an intellectual property climate. (Especially one with a 70 year limit). > > Not sure what you mean here. Surely Tolkien's "myths" (he did > not actually believe in them) are flourishing very well despite > being under copyright. He believed in the concept of myth and legend as a literary force. I cannot explain it any further if you think copyright laws are compatible with mythical treatment. Copyright laws were created by the Enlightenment, which was supposed to do away with myth and do away with multiple sources by turning art into property. Tolkien's brand of romanticism does not jibe with that kind of thinking. > > But then as I understand it you're one of the folks in the "it's not > > supposed to be serious, just escapist" camp? > > Again, not sure what you mean. I think LotR is "serious" > in that it has some serious things to say. And yet it is > also "escapist." Either it is serious (pervaded by a sense of relevance accessible to those who understand where the author is coming from) or it isn't. > > I am more concerned with the fact that the Tolkiens have totally lost > > perspective on life in general. If I got anything out of reading their > > fathers' works, it certainly seems to be more than what they got out of > > it. It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's > > own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors killed > > Beowulf. > > In what sense is Beowulf dead? Wasn't it recently retranslated to > critical acclaim and a surprising measure of commercial success? Interestingly, the re-translator totally trashed Tolkien for his obsessively scientific (philological) literal translation. > As for "the Tolkiens" (by which you mean Christopher and his > siblings, not Simon), I'm not assuming that the sensationalist > accounts of them are true. They are certainly concened about > their privacy (with good reason). But it is difficult to know how > much they got out their father's works without knowing more > about them personally than most of us do. > > As for Christopher himself, I would not describe what he has done > as "mindless death-by-analysis." If anything, such overzealous > analysis takes place here in RABT and AFT, but with little appreciable > damage to JRRT's work. Christopher has performed the role of literary > executor, presenting a large measure of what his father left > behind. Some people enjoy the "illusion of depth" in LotR, and > so it's best for them to avoid Christopher's work, for it would > "kill" the myth for them. Others (including me) enjoy knowing > more about Tolkien's world. To each his own. What you don't seem to understand is that Tolkien's world is A FICTION, and we do not have to accept CJRT's diggings-up of JRRT errata as necessary additions explaining the back-story. It is a MYTH. We can interpolate our own back-story. The reason we rely on JRRT to do this for us is because so many of "us" have no clear sense of what makes JRRT's writings great, morally penetrating, or relevant as modern literature. If we're going to misunderstand Tolkien's writings like that, we should not be worried about correcting our perspective and looking on these stories as essentially romances (referring to fictionalized myths of course) and adding our own endings, if we so choose. YOUR LAWS of course prevent the dissemination of such mythical/romantic treatments. Imagine if Gregory of Monmouth's family had kept the copyrights to the tale of King Arthur. Why do I even bother (sigh) -Ber ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:33:47 -0500 Lines: 59 Message-ID: <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYzeiIYTiF+9bDXyRo5IefV2UkZ5tk6SPUlobWBdsHTzm3zGcBpQ5WN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 06:30:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64121 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > "wrob" wrote in message > news:3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com... > > > Flame, it's certainly true that myths of the sort Tolkien believed > > in do not flourish at all (are not permitted to exist actually) in > > an intellectual property climate. (Especially one with a 70 year > > limit). > > Ack! Beowulf! My Beowulf texts all just went blank... and my > Kalevala, not a single word on any of the pages. It's terrible! > All of the myths have ceased to exist because they aren't permitted > in an intellectual property climate. My Tolkien books must all be > blank too, but I haven't had the heart to look! Oh what a black > day when they invented copyright! But there is NOTHING OUTSIDE THE TEXT. > Um... yeah. The myths are just fine. The ability to plagiarize > them is somewhat hampered, but that doesn't wipe out the existing > myths or prevent the development of new ones. The development of new myths RELIES ON THE PLAGIARIZATION OF OLD MYTHS. Have you learned anything about the myths of any cultures? They derive force from the re-telling. An AUTHORITATIVE account of a story is inimical to the spirit of myth, legend, or romance. The very concept that we should worship Tolkien's version of M-E over our own is not even a post-modern concept -- its a literalist, high-falutin enlightenment paradigm coming from the same sources that suck the life out of Tolkien in the telling to begin with. You are basically ceding the field to Germaine Greer, then saying "They may not be great literature by your definition -- hell I never liked most modern literature -- but those of us obsessive-compulsive enough to care about the SHEER INTERNAL CONSISTENCY of Tolkien's works have found the key to its appreciation." Internal consistency is inimical to a living mythology. Read up on yr humanities studies sometime... > > It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's > > own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors > > killed Beowulf. > > Don't be silly... Beowulf was killed by a dragon. Everyone knows > that. What if I said he was killed by Grendel? And no, I am not being pomo here. A postmodern like Germaine Greer would assert that Beowulf is a mere archetype, that she could CHOOSE to imagine that he wasn't killed at all. At least the pomos understand that there is no one true telling of a FICTIONAL story. (they believe all accounts of everything are fictional, however, and treated as such, which renders myths both popular and unnecessary.) -BER ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:46:26 -0500 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbOLg9NYaxwOmnj5HL/mn5UGCDZnX7zjlazBXTaDIi/Aa4ejQPgM33z X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 06:42:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64322 "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: > > Mr. Franklin, you really need to take a long, hard reality check. If you > can't see even the most basic distinctions, such as that between an author's > copyrighted writings (published or unpublished) and public domain > information concerning the natural world, then you have removed yourself so > far from any common basis for discussion that it is utterly futile even to > attempt such. > > Sir, I'm suggesting that its pointless to attempt to copyright something like Tolkien's development of a mythical back-story for Middle Earth. Either it should be treated as myth, and thus in the public domain, or it should be seen as obsessive-compulsive junk. I myself prefer the former. Unfortunately, most Tolkien fans are postmodernists (or even reactionaries) who worship the texts and do not understand them or their potential (as yet unrealized) relevance to the contemporary reading public. An appreciation of mythical subjects does not lie in the analysis of "alternate retellings" on paper. Postmodern lit-crit claptrap. The Modern interpretation of these documents, of which I am sure your group prefers, is that they are mere evidence leading up to constructing a single canonical interpretation of the world of Tolkien's imagination. Either way it is a case of the elevation of "story" -- the personalized interpretation -- over myth -- an internalized product of the culture. Sorry you don't understand anything I just said. But maybe you do. Who knows in this day and age of culturally relativist "modernist conservatives" who defend 70-year copyright laws. -Ber ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Lines: 43 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.29.87 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1008769013 212.151.29.87 (Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:36:53 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:36:53 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-29-87.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:38:22 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64214 wrob wrote: [snip] >Sir, I'm suggesting that its pointless to attempt to copyright something >like Tolkien's development of a mythical back-story for Middle Earth. Bollocks. >Either it should be treated as myth, and thus in the public domain, or >it should be seen as obsessive-compulsive junk. I myself prefer the >former. Bollocks. >Unfortunately, most Tolkien fans are postmodernists (or even reactionaries) >who worship the texts and do not understand them or their potential (as yet >unrealized) relevance to the contemporary reading public. Bollocks. >An appreciation of mythical subjects does not lie in the analysis of >"alternate retellings" on paper. Postmodern lit-crit claptrap. >The Modern interpretation of these documents, of which I am sure >your group prefers, is that they are mere evidence leading up to >constructing a single canonical interpretation of the world of >Tolkien's imagination. Either way it is a case of the elevation of >"story" -- the personalized interpretation -- over myth -- an >internalized product of the culture. Bollocks. >Sorry you don't understand anything I just said. But maybe you do. >Who knows in this day and age of culturally relativist "modernist >conservatives" who defend 70-year copyright laws. Sorry you seem to have swallowed an entire "Dictionary of Presumptuous Literary Criticism Jargon", without being able to digest it. Öjevind ###### From: James Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.103 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1008769470 210.80.135.103 (Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:44:30 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:44:30 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:43:42 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64279 wrob : >[intellectual property] >-Ber Well said. James "Whoever truly loves the written word must wish frustration and ruin on those who attempt to film it." ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:25:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1008771925 65.9.51.64 (Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:25:25 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:25:25 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64213 On 12/19/01 1:33 AM, in article 3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com, "wrob" wrote: Question: What color is the sky in your world? ###### From: James Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.215 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1008774296 210.80.135.215 (Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:04:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:04:56 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:04:05 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64296 Carl F. Hostetter : > > >Question: What color is the sky in your world? I notice that those who are arguing against wrob are conspicuously incapable of actually putting forth a sustained argument to support their position. James "Whoever truly loves the written word must wish frustration and ruin on those who attempt to film it." ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:27:26 -0500 Lines: 70 Message-ID: <3C20B1D7.80443D71@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <3C1F0BF0.4D78A0AD@erols.com> <3C20324B.9215A9DD@erols.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZFaWz5ZKUE8q9sJt4cxTspfK1dG3mR4tcFNuvADwkmFe5Y2jt66rUZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 15:30:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64321 wrob wrote: > He believed in the concept of myth and legend as a literary force. > I cannot explain it any further if you think copyright laws are > compatible with mythical treatment. Please do not make assertions and then say "I cannot explain it any further." That is very rude and bad netiquette. If you can't explain yourself, you shouldn't be making controversial assertions. If I am failing to understand you, please take the time to explain it more carefully. I (and most others here) are not stupid and can grasp a well-formulated idea even if we do not agree with it. You might start by defining what *you* mean by "myth". The usual definition (which most of us go by) does not entail anything about intellectual property status. You obviously mean something else. > Copyright laws were created by > the Enlightenment, which was supposed to do away with myth and do > away with multiple sources by turning art into property. Tolkien's > brand of romanticism does not jibe with that kind of thinking. And yet he copyrighted his work and guarded his intellectual property rights. > Either it is serious (pervaded by a sense of relevance accessible to > those who understand where the author is coming from) or it isn't. Yes, and as I say, I think that LotR *is* serious in that sense. And yet it is also "escapist." > What you don't seem to understand is that Tolkien's world is A FICTION, Suprisingly enough, I knew that. > and we do not have to accept CJRT's diggings-up of JRRT errata as > necessary additions explaining the back-story. It is a MYTH. The Silmarillion is NOT errata. It was a book JRRT intended to publish, in roughly that form. > We can interpolate our own back-story. You can ignore all the post-LotR publications and make up your own Middle-earth legends if you like. As I say, to each his own. Just don't expect anyone else to care. > about correcting our perspective and looking on these stories as > essentially romances (referring to fictionalized myths of course) > and adding our own endings, if we so choose. YOUR LAWS of course > prevent the dissemination of such mythical/romantic treatments. We're respecting Tolkien's wishes in the matter. *He* guarded his rights and willed them not to humanity but to his family. > Imagine if Gregory of Monmouth's family had kept the copyrights > to the tale of King Arthur. He didn't make up King Arthur. King Arthur was in all likelihood a real person. -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34 ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:27:26 -0500 Lines: 70 Message-ID: <3C20B1D7.80443D71@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <3C1F0BF0.4D78A0AD@erols.com> <3C20324B.9215A9DD@erols.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZFaWz5ZKUE8q9sJt4cxTspfK1dG3mR4tcFNuvADwkmFe5Y2jt66rUZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 15:30:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64321 wrob wrote: > He believed in the concept of myth and legend as a literary force. > I cannot explain it any further if you think copyright laws are > compatible with mythical treatment. Please do not make assertions and then say "I cannot explain it any further." That is very rude and bad netiquette. If you can't explain yourself, you shouldn't be making controversial assertions. If I am failing to understand you, please take the time to explain it more carefully. I (and most others here) are not stupid and can grasp a well-formulated idea even if we do not agree with it. You might start by defining what *you* mean by "myth". The usual definition (which most of us go by) does not entail anything about intellectual property status. You obviously mean something else. > Copyright laws were created by > the Enlightenment, which was supposed to do away with myth and do > away with multiple sources by turning art into property. Tolkien's > brand of romanticism does not jibe with that kind of thinking. And yet he copyrighted his work and guarded his intellectual property rights. > Either it is serious (pervaded by a sense of relevance accessible to > those who understand where the author is coming from) or it isn't. Yes, and as I say, I think that LotR *is* serious in that sense. And yet it is also "escapist." > What you don't seem to understand is that Tolkien's world is A FICTION, Suprisingly enough, I knew that. > and we do not have to accept CJRT's diggings-up of JRRT errata as > necessary additions explaining the back-story. It is a MYTH. The Silmarillion is NOT errata. It was a book JRRT intended to publish, in roughly that form. > We can interpolate our own back-story. You can ignore all the post-LotR publications and make up your own Middle-earth legends if you like. As I say, to each his own. Just don't expect anyone else to care. > about correcting our perspective and looking on these stories as > essentially romances (referring to fictionalized myths of course) > and adding our own endings, if we so choose. YOUR LAWS of course > prevent the dissemination of such mythical/romantic treatments. We're respecting Tolkien's wishes in the matter. *He* guarded his rights and willed them not to humanity but to his family. > Imagine if Gregory of Monmouth's family had kept the copyrights > to the tale of King Arthur. He didn't make up King Arthur. King Arthur was in all likelihood a real person. -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34 ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:01:58 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64277 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:38:22 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >Bollocks. > >Bollocks. > >Bollocks. > >Bollocks. > >Sorry you seem to have swallowed an entire "Dictionary of Presumptuous >Literary Criticism Jargon", without being able to digest it. > >Öjevind > I *like* the way you think! the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The pragmatist, being thirsty, drinks the water. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:04:44 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64316 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:33:47 -0500, wrob wrote: >The development of new myths RELIES ON THE PLAGIARIZATION OF OLD >MYTHS. No, it does not. Obviously you do not understand what 'plagiarism' means. And I think it would be a waste of my time to attempt to explain to such a closed and limited mind. Don't even try ......! the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James T. Kirk ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> Distribution: world Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:09:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1008781769 65.9.51.64 (Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:09:29 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:09:29 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64212 On 12/19/01 10:04 AM, in article d1b12ugfq02ibcc0iksjnc2qr7nbpb5mdc@4ax.com, "James" wrote: > I notice that those who are arguing against wrob are conspicuously > incapable of actually putting forth a sustained argument to support > their position. Check the archives. We've been through all this before, and more than once. It's pointless to argue with this guy. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 20 Dec 2001 00:28:44 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 81 Message-ID: <6uadwe3i37.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008804526 923 10.0.3.2 (19 Dec 2001 23:28:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2001 23:28:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64329 James writes: > Carl F. Hostetter : > > > > > >Question: What color is the sky in your world? > > I notice that those who are arguing against wrob are conspicuously > incapable of actually putting forth a sustained argument to support > their position. - you really need to take a long, hard reality check - - Bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks. - Question: What color is the sky in your world? - I *like* the way you think! That is normal for them. No arguments, because they simply have none that are convincing. And they know that, from all too many faillures. Let me tell you a small tale of times past: Once there existed an society in which invention was regarded as something that belonged to everyone. Different people added their parts over time, great stuff resulted, such as the mythologies, of which JRRT later derived his works. This was the society where humans were truly more than apes. Then the times changed, and the true society of peers was replaced by dealing and business. And the world became haunted by the bean counters, people who live to the fullest the (sort-of-)life of social-darwinistic survivalof the strongest. People who try to carve out niches that belong to themselves, as a base in their fight for survival, no matter the cost to others. These are those that returned to being apes. One of their beans to count was carving up invention as something that belongs, little piece for little piece, to some few of them, and anyone who wants to build on their little piece had better pay each of them. The remains of true society did not take this abstruse mentality to their hearts. For centuries this was simply ignored, as the only people harmed by it were the other beasts of business that also operated printing presses. Waring among each other, as is their primitive mode of life. Today the situation has changed, the normal guy now has his net access and web page and Napster and is not inclined to play part in this absurd game. And so the two cultures clash, like titans. The free inventors vs the bean counters. And each time they clash, their views are totally incompatible, like light and dark. No one can persuade the other that his view is not right. So in the end it justs ends up in name-calling. In claims that the other must be an idiot. That the other is beyound reasoning. Then repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Good look for us (you, wrob, myself) that we are part of a party of millions, while they are few and have among then some (MPAA, RIAA) who will, driven by their greed, do everything they can to discredit themselves and their view. Welcome to the future. In annother post in this thread: From: "Carl F. Hostetter" > > I notice that those who are arguing against wrob are conspicuously > > incapable of actually putting forth a sustained argument to support > > their position. > > Check the archives. We've been through all this before, and more than once. > It's pointless to argue with this guy. What he really should had said: it is pointless to argue with those who belong to the opposing view. That line of this is the fullest expression of "I give up, I can not persuade you". -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: gtc4184@yahoo.com (Greg Campbell) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:13:43 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.185.183.100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008353623 28980 127.0.0.1 (14 Dec 2001 18:13:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2001 18:13:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64970 Highway of Death wrote in message news:... > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > > > If what you are saying is all true, then the Tolkien family is a bunch > of shitheads, but I never worshipped THEM. And I don't worship JRR > Tolkien. I only admire him. I go for years without even thinking of > JRR Tolkien. > > Important question: why won't the Tolkien family make any money off of > the movies? Has their copyright expired or what? Are Tolkien's books > yet out of copyright? If not, when will they be? They may not make any money off the movies directly, but they'll surely make boatloads of money from the greatly increased sales of the books and other paraphernalia we have seen and will continue to see for the next few years. Don't cry for the Tolkiens. ###### From: ex_ottoyuhr@hotmail.com (Ex_Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 14 Dec 2001 12:00:55 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.201.172.124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008360055 31524 127.0.0.1 (14 Dec 2001 20:00:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2001 20:00:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64871 Highway of Death wrote in message news:... > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > > > If what you are saying is all true, then the Tolkien family is a bunch > of shitheads, but I never worshipped THEM. And I don't worship JRR > Tolkien. I only admire him. I go for years without even thinking of > JRR Tolkien. Years? Then why are you reading this newsgroup? :) > Important question: why won't the Tolkien family make any money off of > the movies? Has their copyright expired or what? Are Tolkien's books > yet out of copyright? If not, when will they be? They won't make money because JRRT sold movie rights for LotR to Saul Zanetz. (I know that the spelling's wrong.) The copyright, unless it is renewed (and I hope it won't be but fear that it will), expires 75 years after Tolkien's death -- in other words, sometime around 2048. I, for one, would love to see Tolkien's work in the public domain, not so that countless movie directors and other merchandizers could make stupid amounts of money from it (which _will_ happen, and I fear that even Jackson doesn't have a vision of anything but large amounts of U.S. currency dancing in his head) but so that others with decent amounts of creativity and the desire to tell a real story can be able to add to Tolkien's world in areas where it is still vague. I do not mean that I want to see LotR fan fiction and thirty conflicting versions of what happened to Aragorn after the end of the book. That would be as pointless as it would be stupid. I'd like to see more narratives of the Second Age and about civilizations outside of the West. ###### From: shumyum@yahoo.com (Justin Green) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 15 Dec 2001 06:38:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: <85f16397.0112150638.885ab78@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.139.188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008427093 18898 127.0.0.1 (15 Dec 2001 14:38:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 2001 14:38:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64806 Highway of Death : > > If what you are saying is all true, then the Tolkien family is a bunch > of shitheads I've heard that it mostly isn't true and what is true is blown out of proportion. The Tolkien family sounds as if they are more gunshy about movies than angry...and for good reason. Of course, I have very little first hand evidence to back this up other than a couple recent quotes, but such is usenet to refute rumors with rumors. In any case, (IMO) Tolkien fans owe a big debt to Christopher for getting JRRT's unpublished work out there and I CERTAINLY don't think that money has been a prime motivating force in either making those unpublished works available OR in questioning movie adaptations. Whether he has become too obsessed with the integrity of Tolkien's work is another topic of discussion, but don't cheapen it by claiming the Tolkien family is only in it for the money. And for the record, I'm very much looking forward to the movie. If it IS all that the early reviews make it out to be, I dearly hope Christopher Tolkien swallows his pride and checks it out! Justin [btw, "Highway of Death", and I'm speaking as a very patriotic American, if your email address is not meant to be sarcastic or something, than you should know firsthand how it feels to be a shithead.] ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 18 Dec 2001 04:43:02 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 44 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0112180443.6892a1b4@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1d5010.8275594@news2.randori.com> <6ud71d4gny.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008679382 32440 127.0.0.1 (18 Dec 2001 12:43:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 12:43:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64881 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:<6ud71d4gny.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > nospam@nospam.spam (AC) writes: >> I cannot imagine someone who would go through sixty or seventy years >> worth of writing to produce books of dwindling general popularity just >> out of greed. > From JRRTs death (early 197x) to Silm publishing (1977). Makes about 5 > years. Factor 10 below your "sixty or seventy". "The Silmarillion" != "books" If you are going to try to 'disprove' his statement it'd help to use the same basis of measuring. While '60 or 70 years' is an exaggeration, unless we start counting from Christopher's childhood proofreading of his father's texts, 'five' is equally invalid. >> I feel that he completed his father's wish that the >> Silmarillion be published, > Perhaps. I feel that it was more his own wish What? Whether Christopher wanted to do it for his own reasons or not he was still specifically asked to do so by his father. He completed his father's wish. No 'perhaps' about it. > That would be Silm (1977) to PoME (1996), so 19 years. Silm was published in 1977. It was begun well before then, and Christopher had been involved with much of his father's work even while he was alive. In any case, multiple decades of effort does not well fit the mold of 'bored dilettante' you seem to be suggesting. > Greatfull one should be, but not worshipfull, which some people are, > and not bitter (as some are, as result from seeing the worshippers not > fit reality?). Such as? I've never seen one of these 'woshipful' people other than 'Prophet of the Valar' and his ilk (whom some of us suspect just might be joking ). I think most of the people here have pointed out some flaw in Christopher's work at one time or another. Just no need to go inventing them. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 18 Dec 2001 04:57:01 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0112180457.3b0fb84d@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008680222 32708 127.0.0.1 (18 Dec 2001 12:57:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 12:57:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64981 "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote in message news:... > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >> Funny how they didn't ask Humphrey Carpenter... Wayne Hammond... >> Christina Scull... Douglas Anderson... Carl Hostetter... Arden >> Smith... Patrick Wynne... or any member of the Tolkien family >> OTHER than the one said to be on the outs with the rest? > Indeed. There are many angry, jealous, arrogant people, including some > well-known (and some not so well-known) names on this list, who are always > only too happy to paint the Tolkiens and the Tolkien Estate in the worst > possible light, based entirely on insinuation and fabrication. I'm not sure what "list" you mean Carl. One respondent seemed to think that you mean the newsgroup participants (sometimes referred to as a 'mailing list' by individuals who were/are active on the old e-mail discussion groups). Is that it or did you mean the list of names I had included? I'd thought that group would generally be more supportive of the Tolkien family as they've all received help for their work, and I've seen specific statements of support from almost all of them. Hence my pointing out that the article seemed to have quoted only a few 'negative Tolkien scholars' rather than any of the supportive ones (of which the above are only a small subset - I've since thought of several other names which should have been on that list). ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 18 Dec 2001 05:13:54 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0112180513.4ed413a5@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008681234 597 127.0.0.1 (18 Dec 2001 13:13:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 13:13:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64919 the softrat wrote in message news:... > Carl, It is truly amazing and disheartening, at least to me, how many > of these Orcs are out there. Although I have never had any personal > contact with any member of the Tolkien family, I can still see and > appreciate what Christopher has done for us and for his father's > legacy. In my opinion he deserves every farthing he gets and then > some. He is a great son of a great man! Ah... you big softie. Am I the only person experiencing a 'Christmas Carol' moment here? 'Buy me the biggest turkey they have...' :] ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 18 Dec 2001 06:23:57 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0112180623.21d8eba1@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1ac6cf$0$43572$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.54.55.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008685437 2231 127.0.0.1 (18 Dec 2001 14:23:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 14:23:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64914 Donald Shepherd wrote in message news:... > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:24:13 -0800, Cam allegedly > said the following... > > Copyright lasts, the lifetime of the person that created the "whatever" and > > 50 years after he dies I believe. > > In the US, isn't it extended every 25 years to stop Walt Disney's works > from coming out of copyright? That's cause the great evil known as the Disney corporation doesn't want anyone else to profit off the garbage they produce. Other big media corporations have been known to guard their "intellectual property" like dragons as well. However I don't see it applying to the literary world like it does to the world of film. ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:41:33 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <85f16397.0112150638.885ab78@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-909.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:65057 On 15 Dec 2001 06:38:13 -0800, shumyum@yahoo.com (Justin Green) wrote: |I've heard that it mostly isn't true and what is true is blown out of |proportion. The Tolkien family sounds as if they are more gunshy |about movies than angry...and for good reason. Of course, I have very |little first hand evidence to back this up other than a couple recent |quotes, but such is usenet to refute rumors with rumors. Tolkien himself is on record hating Hollywood. I believe that if he were still alive, this movie could never have been made, no matter how good the screenplay. ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0112180457.3b0fb84d@posting.google.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:07:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1008814035 65.9.51.64 (Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:07:15 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:07:15 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64691 On 12/18/01 7:57 AM, in article 1178b6d1.0112180457.3b0fb84d@posting.google.com, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote in message > news:... > >> "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > >>> Funny how they didn't ask Humphrey Carpenter... Wayne Hammond... >>> Christina Scull... Douglas Anderson... Carl Hostetter... Arden >>> Smith... Patrick Wynne... or any member of the Tolkien family >>> OTHER than the one said to be on the outs with the rest? > >> Indeed. There are many angry, jealous, arrogant people, including some >> well-known (and some not so well-known) names on this list, who are always >> only too happy to paint the Tolkiens and the Tolkien Estate in the worst >> possible light, based entirely on insinuation and fabrication. > > I'm not sure what "list" you mean Carl. One respondent seemed to > think that you mean the newsgroup participants (sometimes referred to > as a 'mailing list' by individuals who were/are active on the old > e-mail discussion groups). Is that it or did you mean the list of > names I had included? Sorry for the confusion, which I hadn't noticed until now! I meant this newsgroup. The list you provided is populated by people to whom the Estate has been very helpful -- for the most part because those people have been very helpful to the Estate and/or respectful of the Estate's rights and of the way scholarship and archive access works in the real world. > Hence my pointing out that the article seemed to have > quoted only a few 'negative Tolkien scholars' rather than any of the > supportive ones (of which the above are only a small subset - Indeed, on both counts. |======================================================================| | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | | | | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | | Ars longa, vita brevis. | | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | |======================================================================| ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:13:59 -0500 Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3C218FB7.EAF2C90D@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaaB+q51Bh7UZv2Z67KEF93jHA5klv87mDsPM4hiQYxAcb1o62DifuA X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:10:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64356 Ex_Ottoyuhr wrote: > > I do not mean that I want to see LotR fan fiction and thirty > conflicting versions of what happened to Aragorn after the end of the > book. That would be as pointless as it would be stupid. Hey, how do you think legends form? :-) -Ber ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:27:41 -0500 Lines: 77 Message-ID: <3C2192ED.1A9F69B5@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <3C1F0BF0.4D78A0AD@erols.com> <3C20324B.9215A9DD@erols.com> <3C20B1D7.80443D71@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVap27YybIDhTGi12BLZ3rx39BCVmdq9PmCnWddC+SGhwNajndw5q3sn X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:24:01 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64344 Flame of the West wrote: > > wrob wrote: > > > He believed in the concept of myth and legend as a literary force. > > I cannot explain it any further if you think copyright laws are > > compatible with mythical treatment. > > Please do not make assertions and then say "I cannot > explain it any further." That is very rude and bad > netiquette. If you can't explain yourself, you shouldn't > be making controversial assertions. If I am failing to > understand you, please take the time to explain it more > carefully. I (and most others here) are not stupid and > can grasp a well-formulated idea even if we do not agree > with it. You might start by defining what *you* mean by > "myth". The usual definition (which most of us go by) > does not entail anything about intellectual property status. > You obviously mean something else. Myths are ever changing and survive best in the re-telling and elaboration. That's why anthropologists distinguish between "live" and "dead" storytelling. A purely written-word culture is one that has lost its sense of wonder, though Tolkien might not have ever put it in those terms. And wonder is the same for all human beings, so please don't argue "but from Tolkien's perspective he was quite comfortable with the written word"... such a postmodern argument, the idea that the writer is infallible within his own secondary world (which most modern people inhabit 24/7!) > > Either it is serious (pervaded by a sense of relevance accessible to > > those who understand where the author is coming from) or it isn't. > > Yes, and as I say, I think that LotR *is* serious in that sense. > And yet it is also "escapist." Only if you've given up on principles of applicability. I for one feel no need to "escape" to a mythical world. We are LIVING in an incredibly bizarre and multifaceted universe already. Turn off your TV and computer and go outside, you'll see what I mean. Even the god-awful commercial strips of suburbia have their own pulsating, bizarre sense of hostile life that would fill Marco Polo (or Tolkien) with wonder and dread. Who needs to "escape" to find Mordor (or Valinor) for that matter? It's all inspired by real life ultimately. Tolkien's world and all fiction is PART of real life if you accept meme theory or similar metaphysical concepts. > > We can interpolate our own back-story. > > You can ignore all the post-LotR publications and make up your > own Middle-earth legends if you like. As I say, to each his own. > Just don't expect anyone else to care. I don't expect anyone to care enough to read the original myths on the level Tolkien wrote into them. Specially if people can't get beyond the plot points (or as they call them "facts" of the fictional backstory). A real myth does not rely on a clearly-defined back story as a crutch. The sense of depth is precisely why Tolkien imagined the back story in the first place. Trying to canonicise the whole history of the legend sucks the life out of it. It's like trying to "reconcile" different versions of Grek myth (which was likewise set in a coherent historical world). Does anyone see what I'm saying here? Tolkien was no fool. He knew that you cant' create an emotionally appealing myth or legend with an omniscient narrative!! > > Imagine if Gregory of Monmouth's family had kept the copyrights > > to the tale of King Arthur. > > He didn't make up King Arthur. King Arthur was in all likelihood > a real person. Not if you go by the literal details of Monmouth's account, some of which are simpl impossible. We can only conclude that he didn't do his research. :-b -Ber ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:32:22 -0500 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C219406.BD052CFF@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> <6uadwe3i37.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbpSFD1EwuBpZHQiyIW29HaWjauJwpf9njHfJGlbCj59TxGFBGtfTN8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:28:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64337 Neil Franklin wrote: > > What he really should had said: it is pointless to argue with those > who belong to the opposing view. That line of this is the fullest > expression of "I give up, I can not persuade you". Isn't that the distilation of the postmodern, "let's agree to disagree because, by definition, I cannot convince myself that I am wrong, when from my perspective (the only one that matters) I am always right?" It's so hip nowadays.. and so convenient for those arguing from the primacy of a specific ideology or work of art. They no longer have to prove it's the "Master Theory of Existence", just that it works for them. I wish we could get out of this "what is the superior perspective" mentality altogether! :-/ -Ber ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:40:48 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C219600.C8F00BBC@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZulV5EuhTp8Sck89ux/lOeUjVgKQjzyNcs7XgGVPjADuL9HI3eh70Q X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:37:16 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64333 "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: > > On 12/19/01 10:04 AM, in article d1b12ugfq02ibcc0iksjnc2qr7nbpb5mdc@4ax.com, > "James" wrote: > > > I notice that those who are arguing against wrob are conspicuously > > incapable of actually putting forth a sustained argument to support > > their position. > > Check the archives. We've been through all this before, and more than once. > It's pointless to argue with this guy. Carl, I am not actually as hostile to CJRT as you imagine me to be. If you notice, my original post was more of a Jeremiad than anything else. I am hoping that either I will be proved wrong about this article (the original story), or that CJRT will see through the potentially damaging influences of such a long, hard focus on (ahem) "roots and beginnings." -Ber ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1d5010.8275594@news2.randori.com> <6ud71d4gny.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1178b6d1.0112180443.6892a1b4@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.28.147 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1008835743 212.151.28.147 (Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:09:03 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:09:03 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-28-147.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:10:31 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64735 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >Neil Franklin wrote in message... >> Greatfull one should be, but not worshipfull, which some people are, >> and not bitter (as some are, as result from seeing the worshippers not >> fit reality?). > >Such as? I've never seen one of these 'woshipful' people other than >'Prophet of the Valar' and his ilk (whom some of us suspect just might >be joking ). I think most of the people here have pointed >out some flaw in Christopher's work at one time or another. Just no >need to go inventing them. I suspect that very soon, some of those who have attacked Tolkien's family as some kind of enemies of promise will proceed to flame Tolkien as a crappy writer and express their gratitude to Jackson for making a wonderful film out of that detestable, inferior book, "The Lord of the Rings". It is in the air already. Öjevind ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 20 Dec 2001 06:52:04 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0112200652.1dbc4169@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1d5010.8275594@news2.randori.com> <6ud71d4gny.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1178b6d1.0112180443.6892a1b4@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008859925 29354 127.0.0.1 (20 Dec 2001 14:52:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:52:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64918 "?evind L?g" wrote in message news:... > I suspect that very soon, some of those who have attacked Tolkien's family > as some kind of enemies of promise will proceed to flame Tolkien as a crappy > writer and express their gratitude to Jackson for making a wonderful film > out of that detestable, inferior book, "The Lord of the Rings". It is in the > air already. I've seen several comments to that effect in reviews already. However, I've also taken great satisfaction in noting that most such 'book bashers' have primarily criticized things which were more due to Jackson than Tolkien and praised those things from Tolkien which Jackson retained. Whatever, the film is not as good as the book - indeed, to me the best thing about the film is that I can take many parts of it and imagine them within the framework of the book... as a scene from the book rather than connected with the other (sometimes quite bad) scenes from the movie. It may well be a good film even for those who haven't read the book (I'm not in a position to know, but I suspect it would be so), in which case Jackson has done a good job for >most< of us... though the end product is an inferior story told in a more approachable medium. Taking those beautiful images and scenes and mentally inserting them into Tolkien's grander story is what makes the movie for me. ###### From: nospam@nospam.spam (AC) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: <3c220906.3552517@news2.randori.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> Lines: 20 Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:51:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64511 On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:51:17 -0500, wrob wrote: >I am more concerned with the fact that the Tolkiens have totally lost >perspective on life in general. If I got anything out of reading their >fathers' works, it certainly seems to be more than what they got out of >it. It could be argued that the mindless death-by-analysis of Tolkien's >own myth killed it in the same manner that Tolkien's predecessors killed >Beowulf. Why are you so worried about the Tolkiens? I'm sure they can take care of themselves, without any of us worrying about them. As for death-by-analysis, reading the History of Middle Earth has not destroyed my love for LotR, only increased it. There are many references in LotR that I now see having enormous historical depth. If you don't like the later works that Christopher edited, there is no reason for you to go out and buy them. I'm sure the large majority of those that have read LotR and Sil have probably not gone any further. --- AaronC ###### From: nospam@nospam.spam (AC) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: <3c2209bf.3737827@news2.randori.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <3C1F0BF0.4D78A0AD@erols.com> <3C20324B.9215A9DD@erols.com> Lines: 27 Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:53:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64571 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:23:09 -0500, wrob wrote: >Flame of the West wrote: >> >> wrob wrote: >> >> > Flame, it's certainly true that myths of the sort Tolkien believed >> > in do not flourish at all (are not permitted to exist actually) in >> > an intellectual property climate. (Especially one with a 70 year limit). >> >> Not sure what you mean here. Surely Tolkien's "myths" (he did >> not actually believe in them) are flourishing very well despite >> being under copyright. > >He believed in the concept of myth and legend as a literary force. >I cannot explain it any further if you think copyright laws are >compatible with mythical treatment. Copyright laws were created by >the Enlightenment, which was supposed to do away with myth and do >away with multiple sources by turning art into property. Tolkien's >brand of romanticism does not jibe with that kind of thinking. Tolkien certainly appreciated copyright law, and disliked the problems between the British and American versions. Remember the edition brought out in the States? Read Letters and you will find a man who was deeply concerned about protecting his property rights. --- AaronC ###### From: nospam@nospam.spam (AC) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: <3c220aa8.3970437@news2.randori.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> Lines: 59 Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:00:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64553 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:46:26 -0500, wrob wrote: >"Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: >> >> Mr. Franklin, you really need to take a long, hard reality check. If you >> can't see even the most basic distinctions, such as that between an author's >> copyrighted writings (published or unpublished) and public domain >> information concerning the natural world, then you have removed yourself so >> far from any common basis for discussion that it is utterly futile even to >> attempt such. >> >> > >Sir, I'm suggesting that its pointless to attempt to copyright something >like Tolkien's development of a mythical back-story for Middle Earth. Tolkien certainly never thought so. > >Either it should be treated as myth, and thus in the public domain, or >it should be seen as obsessive-compulsive junk. I myself prefer the >former. I'm getting the picture that you dislike Tolkien's work. And why would any author put the work of half a century into the public domain? > >Unfortunately, most Tolkien fans are postmodernists (or even reactionaries) >who worship the texts and do not understand them or their potential (as yet >unrealized) relevance to the contemporary reading public. This is just nuts. How is defending property rights postmodernist? Quit with the second year university bafflegab. Fact is, if I wrote a "mythology" and that wrote a book on top of it, I would want my rights as creator protected. Tolkien certainly did. When someone tried to right a sequel to LotR, he made his feelings very clear. > >An appreciation of mythical subjects does not lie in the analysis of >"alternate retellings" on paper. Postmodern lit-crit claptrap. >The Modern interpretation of these documents, of which I am sure >your group prefers, is that they are mere evidence leading up to >constructing a single canonical interpretation of the world of >Tolkien's imagination. Either way it is a case of the elevation of >"story" -- the personalized interpretation -- over myth -- an >internalized product of the culture. I still don't see how this is a condemnation of property rights. Tolkien wrote it and wanted it protected from derivative works, plagiarism and unauthorized copies. >Sorry you don't understand anything I just said. But maybe you do. >Who knows in this day and age of culturally relativist "modernist >conservatives" who defend 70-year copyright laws. I think this statement says it all... --- AaronC ###### From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:07:48 -0500 Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (skates.gsfc.nasa.gov) Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <3c220906.3552517@news2.randori.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: carlfhostetter.gsfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: skates.gsfc.nasa.gov 1008864717 26752 128.183.221.44 (20 Dec 2001 16:11:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: dscoggin@cne-odin.gsfc.nasa.gov NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:11:57 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!skates!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:65062 On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:51:17 -0500, wrob wrote: > I am more concerned with the fact that the Tolkiens have totally lost > perspective on life in general. Which is more reasonable: to assume that newspaper and tabloid reports depicting an entire family as having "totally lost perspective on life in general" are accurate and fair; or to assume that once again our ever reliable and fair media have been duped into misrepresenting an entire family based on the rants and charges of a single, disgruntled individual? Your own "concern" should have been your first clue that there is in fact far _less_ here than meets the eye.... ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 20 Dec 2001 09:20:14 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 62 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0112200920.6f3ef5e7@posting.google.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008868816 1095 127.0.0.1 (20 Dec 2001 17:20:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2001 17:20:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64984 wrob wrote in message news:<3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com>... > But there is NOTHING OUTSIDE THE TEXT. Ye gods! It has happened again! Thousands of paintings, calendars, computer games, fan fiction (e.g. Black Silmarillion, that Isildur thing, the Aragorn is Faramir's father thing, et cetera), role-playing modules, translations of the books, derivative novels (e.g. Sword of Shanarra, Wheel of Time), movies made by some guy from Australia, that other LotR movie, and those other 'Tolkien' movies too, plus the derivative movies (e.g. Willow), countless little figurines, and a billion other things... all GONE! Wiped off the face of the earth by the evil that is copyright! There is absolutely NOTHING Middle-Earth related outside of the text of Tolkien's books. Nothing. C'mon already... give me some arguments which AREN'T false on their face. > The development of new myths RELIES ON THE PLAGIARIZATION OF OLD > MYTHS. Have you learned anything about the myths of any cultures? > They derive force from the re-telling. Yeah, ok... what's your point? See above list of gazillions of things copied, derived, inspired, and reinterpreted from Tolkien. The myth of Middle-Earth is alive and well. It is a major ingredient of something known as the 'fantasy genre' in modern culture - said genre (and the related 'science fiction' genre to a lesser extent) would be very different without just this sort of borrowing from Tolkien. > An AUTHORITATIVE account of a story is inimical to the spirit of > myth, legend, or romance. Nonsense. Look at the Bible... it's an 'authoritative' account right? Yet there are all sorts of myths and legends which have grown up around the stories within it... many of them leading to entirely different religions. The Torah has no mention of 'Hell' or 'the Devil'... the concepts didn't even exist, but they grew into the culture and split off and were incorporated into new belief systems. There are several DIFFERENT 'authoritative' 'bibles'. Tolkien's books will always be the 'authoritative' source on Middle-Earth... but there are still others. ICE named the nine Nazgul... look, it happened... a different Middle-Earth with all of them named, but Tolkien's is still considered the original and 'correct' in discussions of Tolkien's world - as opposed to ICE's world derived from Tolkien. >> Don't be silly... Beowulf was killed by a dragon. Everyone knows >> that. > What if I said he was killed by Grendel? You'd be wrong? :) No, seriously though... sure, you'd be creating your own Beowulf myth. So what? Doesn't make the original go away. Doesn't mean we should stop looking at the original. Copyright does not prevent any of the things you are praising the virtues of. It delays some particular types of 'myth interpretation' or (as in this case) requires that one pay the creator (or whomever they have sold the rights to) for the right to engage in such work within their world, but it doesn't prevent or damage anything other than the ability of people to rip-off artists. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0112200920.6f3ef5e7@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <5UtU7.1137$O5.3109@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.30.85 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1008888449 212.151.30.85 (Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:47:29 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:47:29 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-30-85.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:48:59 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64730 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >wrob wrote in message news:<3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com>... > >> But there is NOTHING OUTSIDE THE TEXT. > >Ye gods! It has happened again! Thousands of paintings, calendars, >computer games, fan fiction (e.g. Black Silmarillion, that Isildur >thing, the Aragorn is Faramir's father thing, et cetera), role-playing >modules, translations of the books, derivative novels (e.g. Sword of >Shanarra, Wheel of Time), movies made by some guy from Australia, that >other LotR movie, and those other 'Tolkien' movies too, plus the >derivative movies (e.g. Willow), countless little figurines, and a >billion other things... all GONE! Wiped off the face of the earth by >the evil that is copyright! There is absolutely NOTHING Middle-Earth >related outside of the text of Tolkien's books. Nothing. And considering how hamfisted and unimaginative the Tolkien epigones are, I really do not wish for more Tolkien plagiarism. Gifted fantasy writers are often inspired by Tolkien but do not need to steal Tolkien's name or entire creation to appear good. We lose nothing by the copyright laws. And no number of jargon-spouting posts using circular logic to prove that Tolkein's books are worthless if it is illegal to rip them off can change that fact. Öjevind ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:27:39 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C228200.FAEFE8B7@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1d5010.8275594@news2.randori.com> <6ud71d4gny.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1178b6d1.0112180443.6892a1b4@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0112200652.1dbc4169@posting.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVblpBFQE3D6IJIJjpsB+ikAdqS/Gyvpdaydgguh4G0oz9ybxtdqI+Dx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2001 00:24:01 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64347 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Whatever, the film is not as good as the book - indeed, to me the best > thing about the film is that I can take many parts of it and imagine > them within the framework of the book... as a scene from the book > rather than connected with the other (sometimes quite bad) scenes from > the movie. It may well be a good film even for those who haven't read > the book (I'm not in a position to know, but I suspect it would be > so), in which case Jackson has done a good job for >most< of us... > though the end product is an inferior story told in a more > approachable medium. Taking those beautiful images and scenes and > mentally inserting them into Tolkien's grander story is what makes the > movie for me. An "inferior story"? So you approach it as not a re-telling of the books in the film medium but as fan-art, seen only as an accompaniment to the book, like calendar pictures? Hmm, I'm not into fan fiction OR stand-alone popcorn movies. Maybe I will be doubly disappointed by this film? -Ber ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:34:21 -0500 Lines: 74 Message-ID: <3C228392.CEF8E9DD@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> <3c220aa8.3970437@news2.randori.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaATkuj1M14NOOEWHIbzL/fKGME94NKFxDzsazXUNjaJWSlBNFY5PJp X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2001 00:30:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64355 AC wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:46:26 -0500, wrob wrote: > > >"Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: > >> > >> Mr. Franklin, you really need to take a long, hard reality check. If you > >> can't see even the most basic distinctions, such as that between an author's > >> copyrighted writings (published or unpublished) and public domain > >> information concerning the natural world, then you have removed yourself so > >> far from any common basis for discussion that it is utterly futile even to > >> attempt such. > >> > >> > > > >Sir, I'm suggesting that its pointless to attempt to copyright something > >like Tolkien's development of a mythical back-story for Middle Earth. > > Tolkien certainly never thought so. Well, Tolkien wasn't the greatest authority on mythology that ever lived, was he? > >Either it should be treated as myth, and thus in the public domain, or > >it should be seen as obsessive-compulsive junk. I myself prefer the > >former. > > I'm getting the picture that you dislike Tolkien's work. And why > would any author put the work of half a century into the public > domain? You're missing my point. I prefer the former. If you're going to look at Tolkien's work as a "canon" of impenetrable multilayered back-story then that is an interpretation that makes it nothing more than a junky, "pop culture" version of James Joyce scholarship. > >Unfortunately, most Tolkien fans are postmodernists (or even reactionaries) > >who worship the texts and do not understand them or their potential (as yet > >unrealized) relevance to the contemporary reading public. > > This is just nuts. How is defending property rights postmodernist? > Quit with the second year university bafflegab. Fact is, if I wrote a > "mythology" and that wrote a book on top of it, I would want my rights > as creator protected. Tolkien certainly did. When someone tried to > right a sequel to LotR, he made his feelings very clear. It's very postmodern to think YOUR wants have any bearing on what is appropriate or productive in general when dealing with literary appreciation. It is very postmodern to talk about feelings instead of what is right or wrong across the board. The reason people don't like to talk about truth is that it cuts both ways. > >An appreciation of mythical subjects does not lie in the analysis of > >"alternate retellings" on paper. Postmodern lit-crit claptrap. > >The Modern interpretation of these documents, of which I am sure > >your group prefers, is that they are mere evidence leading up to > >constructing a single canonical interpretation of the world of > >Tolkien's imagination. Either way it is a case of the elevation of > >"story" -- the personalized interpretation -- over myth -- an > >internalized product of the culture. > > I still don't see how this is a condemnation of property rights. > Tolkien wrote it and wanted it protected from derivative works, > plagiarism and unauthorized copies. Terry Brooks is to Tolkien what Tolkien was to the ancient sagas. Terry's just an inferior writer/storyteller. > >Sorry you don't understand anything I just said. But maybe you do. > >Who knows in this day and age of culturally relativist "modernist > >conservatives" who defend 70-year copyright laws. > > I think this statement says it all... Yes, I quite think it does --Ber ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:38:48 -0500 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3C22849E.D0E5C6EE@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0112200920.6f3ef5e7@posting.google.com> <5UtU7.1137$O5.3109@nntpserver.swip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbF1LcI12MNGk4rUmhC1ITX2Yx+yIiDXc31FV3CWXzswznDO53sYGKm X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2001 00:35:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64350 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > >wrob wrote in message > news:<3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com>... > > > >> But there is NOTHING OUTSIDE THE TEXT. > > > >Ye gods! It has happened again! Thousands of paintings, calendars, > >computer games, fan fiction (e.g. Black Silmarillion, that Isildur > >thing, the Aragorn is Faramir's father thing, et cetera), role-playing > >modules, translations of the books, derivative novels (e.g. Sword of > >Shanarra, Wheel of Time), movies made by some guy from Australia, that > >other LotR movie, and those other 'Tolkien' movies too, plus the > >derivative movies (e.g. Willow), countless little figurines, and a > >billion other things... all GONE! Wiped off the face of the earth by > >the evil that is copyright! There is absolutely NOTHING Middle-Earth > >related outside of the text of Tolkien's books. Nothing. > > And considering how hamfisted and unimaginative the Tolkien epigones are, I > really do not wish for more Tolkien plagiarism. Gifted fantasy writers are > often inspired by Tolkien but do not need to steal Tolkien's name or entire > creation to appear good. We lose nothing by the copyright laws. And no > number of jargon-spouting posts using circular logic to prove that Tolkein's > books are worthless if it is illegal to rip them off can change that fact. > > Öjevind You guys miss my point, if most of the fans out there read these works as pseudohistory with a literal "realism" explanation for everything that happens and no applicability to their own lives, then they have stepped out of the realm of literary appreciation for a work that is intended to evoke an old-fashioned "mythical" response from its readers. -Ber ###### From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 20 Dec 2001 20:05:28 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9vu5d8$adi$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1178b6d1.0112180513.4ed413a5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1008900331 14955 129.130.10.50 (21 Dec 2001 02:05:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:05:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64617 conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes: >the softrat wrote in message news:... >> Carl, It is truly amazing and disheartening, at least to me, how many >> of these Orcs are out there. Although I have never had any personal >> contact with any member of the Tolkien family, I can still see and >> appreciate what Christopher has done for us and for his father's >> legacy. In my opinion he deserves every farthing he gets and then >> some. He is a great son of a great man! >Ah... you big softie. >Am I the only person experiencing a 'Christmas Carol' moment here? >'Buy me the biggest turkey they have...' :] wait fro it... wait fro it... #-) -- Banazir (fooom!) ###### From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: 20 Dec 2001 20:14:18 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9vu5tq$aen$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <3c1ac6cf$0$43572$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net> <3ac4908.0112180623.21d8eba1@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1008900862 15385 129.130.10.50 (21 Dec 2001 02:14:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:14:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64659 the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) writes: >Donald Shepherd wrote in message news:... >> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:24:13 -0800, Cam allegedly >> said the following... >> > Copyright lasts, the lifetime of the person that created the "whatever" and >> > 50 years after he dies I believe. >> >> In the US, isn't it extended every 25 years to stop Walt Disney's works >> from coming out of copyright? >That's cause the great evil known as the Disney corporation doesn't >want anyone else to profit off the garbage they produce. Other big >media corporations have been known to guard their "intellectual >property" like dragons as well. Shame! Dragonks aren't interlecsherl property - that's tante-mount to slavery! #-) -- Banazir (you know what they say about dragonks in Gondor (tm)) ###### From: nospam@nospam.spam (AC) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: <3c22aeed.32038487@news2.randori.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1E9EA8.7BF15D9F@erols.com> <3C1EE768.F5CCB360@erols.com> <8JRT7.302280$W8.10686807@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C2034C9.4C1E47CE@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0112200920.6f3ef5e7@posting.google.com> <5UtU7.1137$O5.3109@nntpserver.swip.net> <3C22849E.D0E5C6EE@erols.com> Lines: 16 Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:41:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64663 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:38:48 -0500, wrob wrote: >You guys miss my point, if most of the fans out there read these works >as pseudohistory with a literal "realism" explanation for everything that >happens and no applicability to their own lives, then they have stepped >out of the realm of literary appreciation for a work that is intended to >evoke an old-fashioned "mythical" response from its readers. Whatever the "intent" as you put it, intellectual property remains intellectual property. Just because I am moved by a book does not grant me the automatic right to plagiarize it or use it to create derivative works. Tolkien, as the author of these myths, was in a special situation not found with classical myths (ie. Greek, Germanic, Hindu, Mesoamerican, etc.), since they were not generated by a single writer, but as a real tradition. --- AaronC ###### From: nospam@nospam.spam (AC) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Message-ID: <3c22afb2.32235162@news2.randori.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> <3c220aa8.3970437@news2.randori.com> <3C228392.CEF8E9DD@erols.com> Lines: 107 Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:53:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64632 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:34:21 -0500, wrob wrote: >AC wrote: >> >> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:46:26 -0500, wrob wrote: >> >> >"Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: >> >> >> >> Mr. Franklin, you really need to take a long, hard reality check. If you >> >> can't see even the most basic distinctions, such as that between an author's >> >> copyrighted writings (published or unpublished) and public domain >> >> information concerning the natural world, then you have removed yourself so >> >> far from any common basis for discussion that it is utterly futile even to >> >> attempt such. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Sir, I'm suggesting that its pointless to attempt to copyright something >> >like Tolkien's development of a mythical back-story for Middle Earth. >> >> Tolkien certainly never thought so. > >Well, Tolkien wasn't the greatest authority on mythology that ever lived, was he? And how is this a rebutal? > >> >Either it should be treated as myth, and thus in the public domain, or >> >it should be seen as obsessive-compulsive junk. I myself prefer the >> >former. >> >> I'm getting the picture that you dislike Tolkien's work. And why >> would any author put the work of half a century into the public >> domain? > >You're missing my point. I prefer the former. If you're going to look >at Tolkien's work as a "canon" of impenetrable multilayered back-story >then that is an interpretation that makes it nothing more than a junky, >"pop culture" version of James Joyce scholarship. I still do not understand your argument. You seem to be saying that because Tolkien's work has generated such interest, and because of its internal consistency, permits levels of debate not found in other works of fiction, that it somehow means that it should be lifted from all property law. This is not consistent with Tolkien's wishes, nor would it be with most authors. > >> >Unfortunately, most Tolkien fans are postmodernists (or even reactionaries) >> >who worship the texts and do not understand them or their potential (as yet >> >unrealized) relevance to the contemporary reading public. >> >> This is just nuts. How is defending property rights postmodernist? >> Quit with the second year university bafflegab. Fact is, if I wrote a >> "mythology" and that wrote a book on top of it, I would want my rights >> as creator protected. Tolkien certainly did. When someone tried to >> right a sequel to LotR, he made his feelings very clear. > >It's very postmodern to think YOUR wants have any bearing on what is >appropriate or productive in general when dealing with literary >appreciation. It is very postmodern to talk about feelings instead >of what is right or wrong across the board. The reason people don't >like to talk about truth is that it cuts both ways. This still isn't an argument. Whether you like it or not, property rights are property rights. Tolkien's heirs have inherited his powers over his works, and this is nothing unusual in Anglo-Saxon law. Your argument is essentially that because many people have decided that Tolkien's works rate scholarly inquiry that the Estate should be stripped of all legal rights for the benefits of scholars. > >> >An appreciation of mythical subjects does not lie in the analysis of >> >"alternate retellings" on paper. Postmodern lit-crit claptrap. >> >The Modern interpretation of these documents, of which I am sure >> >your group prefers, is that they are mere evidence leading up to >> >constructing a single canonical interpretation of the world of >> >Tolkien's imagination. Either way it is a case of the elevation of >> >"story" -- the personalized interpretation -- over myth -- an >> >internalized product of the culture. >> >> I still don't see how this is a condemnation of property rights. >> Tolkien wrote it and wanted it protected from derivative works, >> plagiarism and unauthorized copies. > >Terry Brooks is to Tolkien what Tolkien was to the ancient sagas. >Terry's just an inferior writer/storyteller. Again, I sense you actually dislike Tolkien, and yet, you must believe him worthy of scholarly work. A most confusing situation. > >> >Sorry you don't understand anything I just said. But maybe you do. >> >Who knows in this day and age of culturally relativist "modernist >> >conservatives" who defend 70-year copyright laws. >> >> I think this statement says it all... > >Yes, I quite think it does --Ber Sigh... I thank goodness at the end of the day that evil "modernist conservatives" have the upper hand in property rights. I sense something extremely communist in your whole argument, and as someone who hopes to actually publish something someday, I wouldn't want you in charge of copyright law. --- AaronC ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quit worshiping these greed-heads Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:37:33 -0500 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C22CA9B.E86E2149@erols.com> References: <3C1952B2.B20F80B3@erols.com> <6ug0694he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uofkw9jwe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C2037C0.689B5697@erols.com> <3c220aa8.3970437@news2.randori.com> <3C228392.CEF8E9DD@erols.com> <3c22afb2.32235162@news2.randori.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ4d3GSRLnTKiu/N8W07pH2Uaq50Q4hP6ta+AUlnKa9basW4QKybIhZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2001 05:39:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64341 AC wrote: > I still do not understand your argument. You seem to be saying that > because Tolkien's work has generated such interest, and because of its > internal consistency, permits levels of debate not found in other > works of fiction, that it somehow means that it should be lifted from > all property law. This is not consistent with Tolkien's wishes, nor > would it be with most authors. You postmodernist you! -- -- FotW "Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts." The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #34