Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Date: 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 702 Message-ID: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008278900 825 10.0.3.2 (13 Dec 2001 21:28:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 21:28:20 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63160 OK, It has happened, I have seen the film, yesterday (Wednesday) evening, starting 20:30. So here an review from an r.a.b.t-er, where I will try to address the peculiar interests and questions here. Of course I will sure have missed a few as there are so many. WARNING This is a blow-by-blow review. If you are going to see the film and do not want to already know all that happens: LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW! spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space So with that done. Here to the review: Background I have read LoTR about 6 or 7 times, 4 times TH, 2 times Silm and UT and once HoME alle 12 books (only skimmed HoME 3). I am not a particularly "visual" reader, I am more into it for the story, so I was not worried at PJs pictures crowding out mine. I am tolerant of changes to details so long they are needed for the medium change book-to-film, or for time cutting (this includes eliminating and merging of characters), but not unnecessary changes. I visited an "pre-premiere" (ugh, what a term), open only to people who have an "cinecard" (sort of an members card), showing at the Capitol cinema in Basel Switzerland. One of my colleagues from an fantasy LARP group has such a card and was able to get multiple tickets on it, of which 10 were distributed to group members. Of course we went in costume and other visitors commented on that. The film was shown in 2 parts, with a apero break in between, basically split like the books 1 and 2. There were no traillers, and only 2 pre-film ads, from the apero and cinecard sponsors. Instead we got an wellcome speach from one of the cinema personel, who then also sat down to see the film. It seems to have been their only showing before the 19th, as the film boxes were after taken away by 2 security guys. The showing was in english language with german and french subtiltles. Opening An "intro" is in, narrated by a female voice, but not at all as I thought it would be. It covers the end of the end of 2nd age battle, then Isildur taking the ring, the Gladden Fields desaster, Gollum finding the ring and disappering into the Mountains, losing the ring, Bilbo finding it. Of Gollum and Bilbo we only see hands grabbing the ring. Changes: Elendil and Gil-Galad are out (seems to be simple character elimination). The battle is fought by Elrond and Isildur. Isildur kills Sauron without Elronds help. Nice: Isildur kills Sauron, after being knocked down, by chopping off _all_ the fingers of the hand with the ring with one sword swipe. The separation from the ring is what kills Sauron. While the entire fight the writing is visible. Well done. Bad: Sauron. When he enters the battle he with a big club bats entire groups of 5 people away. They arc through the sky multiple metres and then crash into ground. One of the group I was with described it the best: "looks like a video game effect". Also the effect showing Saurons spirit escaping (a fast expanding white foggy halo) is not exactly great. Hobbiton Gandalf arrives on an single horse drawn 2 wheel carriage, not on horseback. Drives through Hobbiton. Fires off some fireworks for the kids. Nice: The entire scenery is great, Hobbiton as in Tolkiens pictures. Dito the costumes, basically 19th century peasant clothing. Fits. Nitpick: It all looks too new, Gandalf is not dusted up, no dirt on carriage wheels. I was surprised that they did not try to make it look used and travelworn. Bag End The "no one enter sign", Gandalf knocks, call from inside "we do not want any visitors", Gandalf calls, Bilbo comes. Gandalf does knock his head, twice, but not on the door, but on the chandalier and then evading it on an beam. Bilbo busies himself aroung the kitchen trying to serve Gandalf some food. Very nice: The entire interieur and kitchen utils called back my childhood memories of visiting my grand parents in their country cottage. Feels totally real. Great done scene! Bilbos party Smaller than in the book (to save extras?) but big enough. Bilbo holds his speach, including all the family names (at least quite a few of them), with cheers from each group. Then he announces it is over and he is going. Puts on ring and vanishes into thin air, we see gate and house door opening, he than takes off ring in house Small nit: IMHO he fingers the ring too openly. Surprises: 1) Sam is pushed into dancing with Rosie, does not seem to have had an previous relationship with her, just an eye on her. 2) Merry and Pippin steal one (the largest) of the fireworks and set it off prematurely inside an tent. Tent goes up with it. It turns out to be the "Dragon" firework. Generally the entire fireworks are well done. Bilbo leaving the Ring to Frodo Gandalf appears and tries to persuade Bilbe to really leave the ring. Fails. Bilbo calls it his precioussss(!). Gandalf uses an magical demonstration to scare Bilbo into leaving it. Bilbo gives in, says "yes I should leave it here" and then starts to leave, with the ring. Gandalf points that out and he gives it up. He is after lightened for not having it any more. (Just) after Bilbo leaving Frodo enters and takes over Bag End. Gandalf is concerned about Bilbos reaction and goes "researching". Nice done: To show Gandalfs magic, the background lighting goes dark, he seems to grow, very menacing voice. Schudder! Unneccessary change: After Gandalfs "you have still got it" Bilbo just throws the ring onto the ground (no putting into envelope). Frodo after entering picks up ring. Gandalf then hands him an envelope, he puts it in, Gandalf (wax-)seals it. Torture of Gollum Flash to Barad-Dur, torturers chamber, we see only the torturers, not Gollum (just his hand once). Hear him voice faintly "Shire Baggins". After that the 9 black riders storm out. Nice: Barad-Dur from outside, looks really sinister. A nice little touch is the moat around Barad-Dur filled with lava. Even better: they _are_ called black (not dark) riders, at least in the european copies of the film. Gandalf researches Flash to Gandalf riding (on horseback now) up to Minas Tirith. Wow! Exactly like the pictures. Beautifly done. Then lead by someone with an torch into underground archive. Studies books. Finds king Isildurs report on how he got the ring. Black rider scares hobbit A black rider asks an hobbit for Baggings. Hobbits dog growls and backs away into house. Short pressed answer "no Bagginses here, are in Hobbiton" then he also flees inside house. Riders horse is near out of control. Nice show that they can hardly stand their riders. I suppose this replaces the Gamgee "haunting". It works the same to introduce the effect the riders have. It is a change relative to actually going for Gamgee, but it nicely shows how the riders are homing in on Frodo. For that is is an effective change. Gandalf sets Frodo off Gandalf appears, tests for writing on ring, by throwing ring in still closed and never opened envelope into fire. Envelope burns up, ring shows no writing first(!), hands it to Frodo "do you see anything". Then only does the writing appear. After that Galdalf gets Frodo to immediately pack and leave. Gandalf also catches Sam dropping eaves and so the 3 of them leave house together. Gandalf then speeds off "to his orders master" because he needs advice to handle this thing. Says he will meet them at Prancing Pony. Then gallops off. Bad change: Writing should appear when heating. Not after in air, that is wrong and illogical (as heat triggers it) and definitely unnecessary. Cut out: There is no months of waiting for Frodos birthday party. There is no house buying in Crickhollow, no going to rest, no removal, no conspiracy of Sam+Merry+Pippin, no Fredegar. Seems to be time saving cut. And done well, cut out an entire element, like with Bombadil. Hobbits meet Frodo and Sam are passing through an field of man-high crop when Merry and Pippin jump out onto them. This turns out to be Maggots field and M+P are doing the thiefing, multiple fruits, including the famed carrots. They hear Maggot and hounds, all four bolt through field into the near forrest. There they also find (wild?) mushrooms. Changes: Well this is to 100% not in the story. But it is clearly an valid attempt to get the other 2 in without Crickhollow and the conspiracy. It is in the same size range as the CT changes to Thingols death in Silmarillion. Fits the story line quite well actually. Black Rider hunts the bobbits While going through the wood, Frodo calls them to hide. They do so under an tree root at the side of the path and then the rider comes by. The sniffing. Frodo is tempted to put on ring. Sam slaps him, which stops this. Rider goes further, then turns round. Frodo "where now" and Merry "the Ferry". Hobbits run, persued by rider. S+M+P untie and launch ferry. Frodo comes running last and jumps to already moving ferry. Black rider does an emergency breaking on the rough wood. Turns round and joins 2 further riders just appearing. Frodo asks about other crossing. Merry "only bridge 20 miles further up". Of course also an entire rewrite. Obviously continuation of the time saving motivation. The chase was IMHO not asked for, seems to be just for an quick adrenalin pulse. Cut out: Maggot visit and cart, and of cource Merry at the ferry. He is after all already with them. About here I became really aware how so many hours of reading can only be fit into a few hours of cinema with lots of cuts. I estimate that there are 3/4(!) of all the book cut. I had expected cuts, but this amount was surprising. That the main story line still survives is to PJs credit. Bree Flash direct to the gate of Bree. Gate guard lets them in, go to Prancing Pony. Frodo gives name Underhill. Hear that Gandalf has not been seen here for 6 Months. Nice: Gate guard opens window in gate and looks out. Sees Hobbits and immediately closes. Then camera pans down, see Hobbit-hight second window being opened. Neat realism touch that draws in the audience. Cut out: No Crickhollow, no Old Wood, no Bombadil, no Barrows, the later 3 as announced in interview. Ring Accident. Are in eating room. One of them askes who that guy in the "corner" is (actually an small indention in the outer wall, where there is a window with built-in benches next to it). Told it is a ranger, all the bad stuff about them. Then we hear from table in middle "if you want a Baggins there is one right over there". Turns out to be a cousin 2 removed who has recognized Frodo. Frodo in this stress situation fingers the ring and then gets knocked over (I can not remember how). Ring goes up into air, spins, falls to Frodo, when catching it it lands on his finger and he vanishes. Reappears near Strider, he grabs Frodo and drags him into his room. All the "are you frightend stuff". Short after the other 3 Hobbits appear, to save Frodo and attack Strider, but he has a sord. Servicable one, not the Narsil shards. Total rewrite, but same end effect. I also assume to save time, as the song performance would have been long. Cut out: Gandalfs letter. Nob and anything with ponys. Barliman is not even named, he is just an annonymous inn owner. Generally all songs and poetry of the book are out, as many expected. Black Riders attack Are out in the countryside. As soon as Frodo puts the ring on they know where he is. Belt to Bree. Ride down the gate and the warden (underneath gate). Go into Hobbit bedroom. Stab beds, with no Hobbits in them, then bolt away. Just what was expected. No changes or additions. Gandalf and Saruman Rides into Isengard, The "gate" is an arch, no gates visible (huh?). Saruman looks great. Saruman already knows all Gandalf does and why he is here, says that Sauron will win and it is better to go over to him. This leads to the "magical fight" and Gandalf is banished to on top of the Orthanc, outside in free air, no roof, gets rained on. Gandalf catches an winged insect, mumbles something to it and it goes of for the eagle (I forgot his name and my LoTR is presently on lend to my father). Eagle arrives just as Saruman is trying to "persuade" Gandalf. Comes from behind Saruman, unseen, Gandalf jumps _down_ onto passing eagle. Flies up over mountains. Cut out: Radagast, seems to be just character elimination. Very nice: I dreaded what the magical battle will look like. But it is very tastefully done, no lightning bolts, no sparks, no shouting, just plain telekinetic pushes from the staffs, Gandalf loses his staff to Saruman and so also the fight. Really bad change: Saruman shows Gandalf the Palantir!!! Gandalf warns him of unknown other users. We (film viewers) see into it, Saurons eye. "Weathertop", sort of Flash to walking up a hill. M+P calling for 2nd breakfast. Draw up to hill with ruin on top. Strider calles it the watchtower of Amon Sul (not Weathertop!). So that is where the ruins in the trailer come from. Strider goes off looking for something and comes back to Hobbits who have lit fire to cook, puts it out, protests of ashes on the tomatoes. Then they see black riders. Strider unpacks 4 daggers for the Hobbits. Riders come, Frodo uses ring, gets stabbed. Riders do not back off, but are driven away by Strider with sword and firebrand (sets some on fire), as seen in the trailer. After that Strider says he can not help Frodo, this needs elf magic. When they leave he carries Frodo over shoulder (is unconcious). Cut out: leaving Bree, Bill Ferny, Apple throw, anything with ponys Excellent: The depiction of the spirit/wraith world when Frodo enters it. Seeing the wraiths as the kings they were. Unneccessary changes: Why Amon Sul? Why unconcious? No time reason for either. Really bad: Strider must have got the daggers in Bree, why only distribute them now? Not just non-Tolkien, but also bad story design (because not credible). Biggest goofup in the book 1, IMHO. Arwen First to answer the longest burning question: Glorfindel is out, Arwen replaces him entirely. The meeting is far earlier. Strider says there are still 6 days to Rivendell, Frodo will not hold that long. He and Sam go looking for Athelas (Sam: "I know it, it is a weed"). Strider is just picking some when a female voice says "it is seldom to catch an ranger off guard", and a sword touches from behind. We do not see Arwen. Flash to the Hobbits. Arwen appears on horseback with "out of light from behind, radiant" sort of effect, but thankfully she is after just normal flesh and blood, not some artificially lighted out being. Takes Frodo with her on horse. Rides quite a distance over open land, until the riders attack. Outraces them, until over Bruinen, there stops, pulls sword and and challenges them "get him if you can". They pull swords, charge over water. She (not Elrond) mumbles a chant to the water, it rises, then the flood comes round the next river bend. With white horses in it. After the riders are drowned, we see Frodo on ground, her concerned he is dying on her, transfers as much power to him as she can. Obviously an 100% rewrite. Frodos last stand is out. How could he when unconcious? But I see no reason for him being unconcious. Unless really just to make Arwen-as-Glorfindel more. And anyone who says that Liv makes no elf or can not act needs his eyes tested or professional help. Arwen is well played, so long one accepts her new role as Glorfindel. Rivendell Frodo in Bed, wakes up to Gandalf. Sam comes in, Elrond also. When Frodo leaves the room he first meets Merry and Pippin. Attitude of "we got the ring to Rivendell, nice adventure, now time for home". Direct after he meets Bilbo (not after the meal) and "I allways dreampt of an adventure like yours, but mine turned out different". The architecture is beautyfull. Fine shaped stone features, a bit between gothic and baroque. Also distance shot of all the buildings (quite a few, size of entire site comparable to an large Tibetan mountain cloister, but separate buildings) seated in the wooded valley with an very nice large (about 10 meteres) water fall next to the main building and the path down into the valley. Not how I imagined it, but very credible. I would not mind going there :-). Discussion of Gandalf and Elrond in which Elrond makes it clear he can not keep the ring here, can not defend it, it must go. Says also that he does not trust it to dwarves or humans. Tells story of how he took Isildur up Orodruin and he would not throw it in. Isildur also called it his preciousss(!). Nifty: linking Gollum/Bilbo/Isildur with all saying preciousss. Nicely shows the rings effect of dominating every wearer without needing an narrator. Here we then had the apero break. In the discussion of our group we all agreed that so far it is a) a good film, b) has some fairly large deviations from the exact text, c) remains faithfull to the important parts of the storyline. The council We see a ring of seats, under open sky (not in the building!) with an small stone block as table in the middle. Present are Elrond, Frodo, Gandalf, Strider, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, and a few others. The discussion is very short: just Elrond to Frodo "put the ring on table"! Then Boromirs "why not use it" and the known answer. Conclusion (or rather statement) it has got to be destroyed. Gimli "so do it", takes his 2 bladed axe and tries to smash it, 1 blade desintegrates, the ring is unharmed. Elrond tells that the ring can only be destroyed in Mordor, "not by any force we have here". Aragorn will not take it, he fears failling like Isildur. Gimli will not trust an elf with it. A verbal fight erupts into standing up, fists ready. All, except Frodo, who goes into himself and then announces he will take the ring. Immediately Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn, Boromir pledge they will help him. Sam jumps in and does also, and gets told off for prying on an secret (open air?!) council. M+P do then repeat the same act. Impressive: Legolas and Gimli. Superbly played. OTOH Elrond is not really convincing. This guy is supposed to be thousands of years old, and wise? IMHO the weakest of all main characters. Cut out: The meal and the entire festivities. Gloin. Any mention of events in Mirkwood either by Gimli or by Legolas. Anything about Gollums capture/flight. Also any long explanations, the entire history background dossier is missing. Even worse, even Legolas, Gimli and Boromir are not even introduced. Whether non-readers can really understand the story after this, I have doubts. Also the fast resolution seconds after a big fight is simply not realistic nor credible. This is IMHO the weakest part in the entire film. Others of our group also voiced this. Narsil As an side to above we see Aragorn and Boromir go to the shards that are on an stone table somewhere inside. I had always had the impression of the sword being broke into in 2 parts, but there are 5-7 additional splinters from where it broke. They discuss but I have not remembered the contents of that bit. This, like the Gandalf and Saruman bit, replaces the stories at the council. Action instead of talk. Convertion book to film done properly. Good. The love story Also as an as side we see Aragorn and Arwen meet. We see a flashback to when they fell in love. This is the scene on the bridge that has been seen in trailer pictures since a long time. We also get here Arwens, "better a short mortal live with you than a long one without". This is a repositioning (as we see later) of the flashback in Lorien. Also well done as action instead of talk. Saruman, Isengard and the Uruk-Hai I can not remember exactly where this one is in the film, but somewhere around here. We see Saruman get command to arm from Sauron. We see the Orcs ripping down trees and throwing then whole into the pits to be chopped and directly fired. We also see the smeltering of metal and making of armor. The entire convertion of Isengard looks realistic. We see Saruman watch the first Uruk-Hai being born, that was the "pod" things in the trailer, not just normal Orcs, but Sarumans breed. Going south Gandalf announces that it is 40 days down to the gap of Rohan (yes, Rohan!). Then we see a few different shots of them walking through the mountains. Anyone who doubts that New Zealand was deliberately chosen (and not just for cheaper, as some have claimed) just has to look at these pictures. Wonderfull. (Remark: I live in an mountain country, I like mountains, I loved these). Now why is that place so far away from where I live? :-) Big change: Gandalf intendes to go via Rohan, despite Saruman. The horse lords and their allegiance are not even mentioned. The Crebain All the party are scattered over a few blocks of rock, cooking fire going. Someone sees an black cloud running against the wind. Legolas cries "Crebain". Everyone scatters and hides, put fire out. Reminded me of marmots diving into protection when an predator flies over. Well done. After they are hidden, the Crebain fly over, low(!), nearly touching ground. This scene immediately reminded me of Hitchcocks "The Birds". Pulled me out of middle earth. I regard this as an cheap shot at horror movie nerve tingling. After this Gandalf announces that they are spies of Saruman (not Sauron) and then decides to not take Rohan. Gimli(!) suggests going through Moria and being the guests of his cousin Balin. Gandalf will have nothing of it, unless there are no other ways. Bad changes: For one the low flying attack, just for (bad) show. Then Gimli suggesting and even more (implicitly) that Gimli does not even suspect that Balin failled. And Gandalf changing side in the Moria debate. I also see no good reason for any of these changes. Caradhras Sheer rock with an small ledge across it, snow on that. 8 of them going up one trampled track. Legolas going beside or in front, leaving no trace. Unlike some speculations here, he does not sink in at all, not even when standing still. Very well filmed. And yes this is the way up, with already snow there. Then the snow storm and an avalanche comes. We see them being near burried in snow, then decide to retreat. We do not see the way down. Massive bad change: The snowstorm is not caused by cruel Cardhras, but storm and avalanche are by Saruman, with who Gandalf ever gets telepathic contact while he attacks. This is an IMHO totally unneccessary change. That even the mountain can be evil gets lost for no film reason. Booo. Moria Gate Flash to the gate, already round the lake. Moon comes out, gate lights up. It is IMHO too small. The part under the "arch" is only about 1 person sized. Also one sees through the hammer and anvil an vertical black line from the door crack, despite the crack being mentioned as invisible. When open then entire picture including arch opens out. When in Aragorn remarks that "this is not so much a mine but more a tomb". There are dead dwarves scattered over the stairs. They back out and then meet the watcher. Yes, the watcher _is_ in, despite the rumours. It puts up a big fight, and recieves multiple sword hits and arrows. After all flee inside, it attacks the door and collapses the entire tunnel entrance. Apart from personal ideas of how it looks this is all within book minus a few cuts. Done well. Moria Battle A small warning here. Moria is my favourite part of the entire LoTR. It also gives ample material to film. So I initially had high expectations. They were though already reduced by seeing the trailer with open stair cases instead of tunnels with stairs in them and the changed Pippin stone to dwarf. As hinted in the trailers, drudging along the long gangway _is_ gone. The original well and stone are out. They end up nearly immediately in the halls. We see Gollum the first time, and Frodo and Gandalf start discussing him immediately. I assume PJ thought that showing Frodos thoughts was too difficult. Gimli sees the chamber of Mazarbul and runs in there, finds tomb and breaks into tears. Rest follow. Gandalf reads from book. Pippin knocks dwarf into well, drums start, attack. Up to here good. Then we get the cave troll fight. Over dramatised, too long. And Frodo is wounded by the Troll, not an Orc. Worst though is Legolas and later Merry and Pippin jumping _on_ the troll and fighting him from that perspective. After the fight we immediately get the discovery of the mithril mailshirt, still in the top room. They only flee as an second attack wave comes. The entire Gandalf breaking the door and "something strong there that nearly broke his will" stuff is entirely missing. The way down is not at all how I immagined it. I had allways assumed steep tunnels with stairs. In the film it is open bridges in empty space. One of them is broken. They have to jump the hole. Here we do get the "no one is allowed to toss dwarves" bit, after Borimir jumped with Merry and Pippin. Gimli jumps on his own, near misses and is saved by someone (I can't remember who) grabbing his beard. Leads to "no one is allowed to grab dwarf beards" line. Down in the big hall near the entrance they are all of a sudden surrounded by what must be thousands of small beings. These are the ones in the trailer that climb spider-like down. They are not Orcs! They are called cobolds in the film. WTF?! Before they can attack the Balrog comes and they scatter. The Balrog comes without any Orcs. There is also no fiery chasm to get across. The entire Gimli "Durins Bane" and Legolas "a Balrog" and Gandalfs entire realisation what he was up to is replaced by an simple non-emotional statement that this is a Balrog and they have no chance. Really weak! And of course now the $64000 question: Balrog wings? I looked out for them and did not see any. But a few of our group say they saw _something_ on its back for a split second at the beginning. After that while the fight no one saw any. Further the Balrog is simply *GREAT*. Large, black, fiery. Scary. Wow! And his whip is top. The rest with Gandalf is as in the book. Dito the flight. The gate is also IMHO too small for the main entrance. Changes: Listed above. I have the feeling, that Moria could have given a lot more potential. An the time wasted on the long cave troll fight could have allowed for some of it. Lorien Aragorn says "we need to reach the wood of Lorien before night, else the Orcs will get us". They enter the wood. Someone gives a story about the dangrous lady of the woods. Gimli just gives off an boast how no one gets near him without him noticing. 5 seconds later they are ringed by elves holding bows, leader called Haldir. Screamingly funny. They are then taken direct to Caras Galadhon. Even there we only get an very short visit. Celeborn gets to ask about only 8 of them, and ask where Gandalf is. And Galadriel also does not get much more than her mirror. And that with only Frodo. The test of Galadriel is there. The terrible Galadriel ist there, but the fim trick does not work right. Then we already see Frodo recieving the phial. And all departing in the boats. Cut out: Lots and lots. The Mirrormere (no location to film it? Or just more time cutting?), the Orc expedition. Haldir and brothers on the flets, the entire "beware of that dwarf" stuff, Gollum, the rope bridge, the tying up of the eyes, visiting the place where Aragorn and Arwen betrothed themselves (so the flashback got moved to Rivendell), no Celeborn against the dwarves, no elves wailing, no weeks of rest there, no Sam at the mirror, no council and Celeborn suggesting boats, no present giving at the end apart from the phial (and they then already have the cloaks and broaches on). This is the book 2 eqivalent of dropping Bombadil&Co in the book 1. LoTR volume really needs one file per book, i.e. 6 films. Whether that is financable or marketable is an other question. Anduin and Argonath The travel down Anduin is also shortened. After seeing a few bends of the river they are at the Argonnath. And yes, the arms are horizontal. And the designer was good. They have long hanging arm garments, that are built solid. So they hold the arms from breaking off. Very nicely done. Realistic. Those statues are really buildable. Cut out: Are the rapids and the east side Orc attack there. Breaking of the Friendship As already announced in an interview, the first chapter of book 3 is in this film. Rauros is spectacular. They pull aside. There is no discussion on how further and Frodo demanding time, rather Frodo just wanders off and meets Boromir out collecting wood. Missed opportunity for personal drama. Weak. Amon Hen appears in the same great spirit/wraith world styling as the rider attack. The fight with Sauron is though too short, the entire "scanning" is missing. Then the others notice he is missing and go searching. Merry and Pippin actually meet Frodo, then the Orcs see them and they distract the Orcs away from Frodo! Frodo flees to the boats. Sam goes after him, nearly drowns, but is saved and goes over to Emyn Muil. Boromir does get killed (forget them rumours), 3 arrows, all from the same Uruk-Hai. The Hobbits are taken. Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli get to the boats and see Frodo and Sam just disappearing into the woods on the other side, then decide the ring is now out of their reach, set Boromir in his boat down Rauros and then go off to search Merry and Pippin. That is the end of the film. Fazit: As a film a good job, particularly the first half. He could have made more of the second, particularly the council and Moria. Main reoccuring weakness is personal development, which seems to be victim of too little time. As for it being a film of LoTR there are a quite a few annoyingly changed things. But if you can ignore the shock of something just being not they way you expect it to be from experience, you can enjoy the film. I will be going for an second time. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: JRStern@gte.net (JRStern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Message-ID: <3c193ff8.28751011@news.gte.net> References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 17 X-Trace: /w3Za7eLzoIjqaw9HUj0N5L+f5oo1EhWhHNEfKSHFw/RLywiBtScfj8oZHrkmaM238d/93l7EVsd!G/MZoBId0gKk1Z7X2AaloDh/So2e9EhcgQkBWV1c9nVo2PImGJMFOR737l/dYuY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:56:29 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:56:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!131.119.28.146!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63343 On 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: >This is a blow-by-blow review. If you are going to see the film and >do not want to already know all that happens: Thanks! I'm just as happy to get the groaners over now, I'll annoy fewer people in the theater by being prepared. And some of the changes sound quite positive. I'm OK with some of the changes you describe and others, well, it sounds like it could have been a lot worse than even the worst of these, anyway, and the net result still seems very positive. J. ###### From: Rast Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Message-ID: References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 81 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:05:02 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.109.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@coretel.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1008356637 162.33.109.210 (Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:03:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:03:57 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63435 Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote on 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 +0100 in article <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: > > WARNING > > > This is a blow-by-blow review. If you are going to see the film and > do not want to already know all that happens: > > > LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW! > > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > > > spoiler space > Gandalf researches > > Flash to Gandalf riding (on horseback now) up to Minas Tirith. Wow! > Exactly like the pictures. Beautifly done. Then lead by someone with > an torch into underground archive. Studies books. Finds king Isildurs > report on how he got the ring. That a Maia could see the One Ring of Sauron and not recognised it for what it was has always struck me as a weak point of the book. But this is even worse. Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about the history of the Ring at some point. > Gandalf and Saruman > > Rides into Isengard, The "gate" is an arch, no gates visible (huh?). > Saruman looks great. Saruman already knows all Gandalf does and why he > is here, says that Sauron will win and it is better to go over to him. I guess the concept of two bad guys working against each other is too complex for most filmgoers, so Jackson made Saruman into just one of Sauron's lieutenants. > Down in the big hall near the entrance they are all of a sudden > surrounded by what must be thousands of small beings. These are the > ones in the trailer that climb spider-like down. They are not Orcs! > They are called cobolds in the film. WTF?! Kobolds, an AD&D monster. They are ½ hit dice creatures with AC 7 and THAC0 20. You only get 7 experience points for killing one, but if you cast a fireball you can easily take out lots at once and gain enough experience to advance to the next level. (Would it have killed Jackson to just call them Orcs, too?) > And of course now the $64000 question: Balrog wings? I looked out > for them and did not see any. But a few of our group say they saw > _something_ on its back for a split second at the beginning. Heh, so it follows the book pretty well there :) ###### From: "Norseman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <6usS7.1637$783.16139@news1.oke.nextra.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.172.15.22 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:33:22 MET Organization: Nextra Public Access X-Trace: readme.online.no 1008358403 146.172.15.22 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:16:12 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news1.oke.nextra.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63443 "Rast" skrev i melding news:MPG.168417663fc759f0989747@pnews.dmv.com... > > Down in the big hall near the entrance they are all of a sudden > > surrounded by what must be thousands of small beings. These are the > > ones in the trailer that climb spider-like down. They are not Orcs! > > They are called cobolds in the film. WTF?! > > Kobolds, an AD&D monster. Well... the D&D universe hardly invented them. :) Originally of Germanic folklore I believe. Mischievous underground dwelling spirits, much like goblins, loves to torment humans for reasons unknown. Another side of the kobold is the friendly household spirit which helps out around the house, but also loves playing tricks, such as hiding household items. ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Message-ID: References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: LgsS7-349505-ER5-625161@rwcrnsc52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52 1008357758 LgsS7-349505-ER5-625161@rwcrnsc52 (Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:22:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:22:38 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:22:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63550 On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:05:02 -0500, Rast wrote: >Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote on 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 >+0100 in article <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: >> >> WARNING >> >> >> This is a blow-by-blow review. If you are going to see the film and >> do not want to already know all that happens: >> >> >> LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW! >> >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space > > >> Gandalf researches >> >> Flash to Gandalf riding (on horseback now) up to Minas Tirith. Wow! >> Exactly like the pictures. Beautifly done. Then lead by someone with >> an torch into underground archive. Studies books. Finds king Isildurs >> report on how he got the ring. > >That a Maia could see the One Ring of Sauron and not recognised it for >what it was has always struck me as a weak point of the book. But this >is even worse. Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle >Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about >the history of the Ring at some point. I would like to point out that this is a criticism of the book. I felt that it showed that Gandalf was not infallible, and therefore more interesting. He proves elsewhere that he *does* forget things over time. Parenthetically, Elrond must have had the same affliction, being present when Isildur hacked off the ring, he nevertheless forgot that the runes were showing at the time. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: "Robert Julian Jr." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:29:03 -0600 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9vdn3q$7ii$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.a0.2f X-Server-Date: 14 Dec 2001 20:23:22 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63455 SNIP... > >That a Maia could see the One Ring of Sauron and not recognised it for > >what it was has always struck me as a weak point of the book. But this > >is even worse. Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle > >Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about > >the history of the Ring at some point. > > I would like to point out that this is a criticism of the book. > > I felt that it showed that Gandalf was not infallible, and therefore > more interesting. He proves elsewhere that he *does* forget things > over time. > > Parenthetically, Elrond must have had the same affliction, being > present when Isildur hacked off the ring, he nevertheless forgot that > the runes were showing at the time. Hi Ron, People should be more forgiving of the memory lapses of the old. I have trouble remembering where I left my car keys from day to day. I just finished reading the entire LotR and there are sections that only come back to me after I am reminded of them. In fact, right now I am having a hard time remembering what I ate for diner last night. Imagine what it is like trying to remember something that happened several hundred or even a thousand years ago. There is only so much gray matter available and sooner or latter something has to overflow into the recycle bin. Today I can't even remember my own name ###### From: Aaron Ginn Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Date: 14 Dec 2001 14:22:54 -0700 Organization: Motorola NSS Lines: 111 Sender: ginn@coronado Message-ID: References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: coronado.sps.mot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Face: $`KkuXM@\2o4r=l0UkzM&uz-hF~OzU!PBqfQq6~9pw5Lv\3z@4g=r!'3r]z^.?AlA5sZ^Tu uOJNQQB9En2s<1cwsNv-g)S*9hj>7X"Sh1}y--,a6{KrT2!XtKgmI?yu)UO+_RY3ozPD++)pW=%e'c P_+2L_ \TnH$; User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Artificial Intelligence) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.xnet.com!newsgate.mot.com!newshost.mot.com!nntp.cig.mot.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63390 Rast writes: > Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote on 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 > +0100 in article <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: > > > > WARNING > > > > > > This is a blow-by-blow review. If you are going to see the film and > > do not want to already know all that happens: > > > > > > LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW! > > > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > > > spoiler space > > > > Gandalf researches > > > > Flash to Gandalf riding (on horseback now) up to Minas Tirith. Wow! > > Exactly like the pictures. Beautifly done. Then lead by someone with > > an torch into underground archive. Studies books. Finds king Isildurs > > report on how he got the ring. > > That a Maia could see the One Ring of Sauron and not recognised it for > what it was has always struck me as a weak point of the book. But this > is even worse. Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle > Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about > the history of the Ring at some point. I don't recall exactly, but this is in the LotR (RotK, I think). Gandalf did go to Minis Tirith and peruse the archives looking for information about the Ring. I'm sure Gandalf knew the history of the Ring, but his intention was to gather enough information about the Ring to be able to conclude what had happened to it after Isildur, and whether or not Bilbo's ring was The Ring. Sounds like the movie is spot-on here. > > Gandalf and Saruman > > > > Rides into Isengard, The "gate" is an arch, no gates visible (huh?). > > Saruman looks great. Saruman already knows all Gandalf does and why he > > is here, says that Sauron will win and it is better to go over to him. > > I guess the concept of two bad guys working against each other is too > complex for most filmgoers, so Jackson made Saruman into just one of > Sauron's lieutenants. Just because Saruman says this to Gandalf in the movie doesn't mean it's true. Perhaps in TTT, Saruman's plot to take Sauron's place is revealed. Perhaps he just means to throw Gandalf off. It seems more reasonable that Sauron would say to Gandalf that he is hedging his bets rather than come right out and say he wants to replace Sauron. > > Down in the big hall near the entrance they are all of a sudden > > surrounded by what must be thousands of small beings. These are the > > ones in the trailer that climb spider-like down. They are not Orcs! > > They are called cobolds in the film. WTF?! > > Kobolds, an AD&D monster. They are ½ hit dice creatures with AC 7 and > THAC0 20. You only get 7 experience points for killing one, but if you > cast a fireball you can easily take out lots at once and gain enough > experience to advance to the next level. > > (Would it have killed Jackson to just call them Orcs, too?) Agreed. This is an annoying and pointless change. > > And of course now the $64000 question: Balrog wings? I looked out > > for them and did not see any. But a few of our group say they saw > > _something_ on its back for a split second at the beginning. > > Heh, so it follows the book pretty well there :) Wonder if PJ reads RABT? -- Aaron J. Ginn Phone: 480-814-4463 Motorola SemiCustom Solutions Pager: 877-586-2318 1300 N. Alma School Rd. Fax : 480-814-4058 Chandler, AZ 85224 M/D CH260 mailto:aaron.ginn@motorola.com ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Message-ID: <13tk1uogjgknm49lglko04uc5n233f56r6@4ax.com> References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: NluS7-214455-7y-317222@rwcrnsc54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1008366899 NluS7-214455-7y-317222@rwcrnsc54 (Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:54:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:54:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:54:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63500 On 14 Dec 2001 14:22:54 -0700, Aaron Ginn wrote: >I don't recall exactly, but this is in the LotR (RotK, I think). >Gandalf did go to Minis Tirith and peruse the archives looking for >information about the Ring. Absolutely true. I'm still wondering what a "glede" is. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: "Robert Julian Jr." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:04:56 -0600 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9vdsni$ra6$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.a0.2f X-Server-Date: 14 Dec 2001 21:59:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63465 SNIP... > Wonder if PJ reads RABT? Sure he does. He has already agreed to many of the changes listed in the "An Open Letter to Peter Jackson" thread. Are you afraid Peter??? Not nearly enough. Today I am just warning Peter to keep his back to the wall ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:05:49 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <13tk1uogjgknm49lglko04uc5n233f56r6@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63562 On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:54:59 GMT, Ronald O. Christian wrote: > >Absolutely true. I'm still wondering what a "glede" is. > A 'burning coal'. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Love means never having to say "Put down that chainsaw" ###### From: tbarrie@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org (Trevor Barrie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 08:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Giant ants are cool Lines: 57 Message-ID: <9vhkg1$mca$1@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org> References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: user1-76.gradstudents.utoronto.ca (142.150.176.76) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1008490443 16181205 142.150.176.76 (16 [90758]) X-Orig-Path: unknown!not-for-mail Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!user1-76.gradstudents.utoronto.CA!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:63717 In article , Rast wrote: >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> >> >> spoiler space >> Flash to Gandalf riding (on horseback now) up to Minas Tirith. Wow! >> Exactly like the pictures. Beautifly done. Then lead by someone with >> an torch into underground archive. Studies books. Finds king Isildurs >> report on how he got the ring. > >That a Maia could see the One Ring of Sauron and not recognised it for >what it was has always struck me as a weak point of the book. But this >is even worse. This is from the book too, as a number of people have pointed out. >Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle >Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about >the history of the Ring at some point. Of course he knew the history of the Ring! But that wouldn't tell him what the thing _looked_ like. Only two people of whom he knew had seen it close enough to describe details, and as questioning Sauron was not entirely a practical option he had to search for records left by Isildur. >> Gandalf and Saruman >> >> Rides into Isengard, The "gate" is an arch, no gates visible (huh?). >> Saruman looks great. Saruman already knows all Gandalf does and why he >> is here, says that Sauron will win and it is better to go over to him. > >I guess the concept of two bad guys working against each other is too >complex for most filmgoers, so Jackson made Saruman into just one of >Sauron's lieutenants. This is also directly from the book. ###### From: Rast Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Message-ID: References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9vhkg1$mca$1@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 58 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:49:22 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.108.39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@coretel.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1008679705 162.33.108.39 (Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:48:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:48:25 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:64034 Trevor Barrie (tbarrie@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org) wrote on Sun, 16 Dec 2001 08:03:13 +0000 (UTC) in article <9vhkg1$mca$1@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org>: > In article , > Rast wrote: > > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > > >Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle > >Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about > >the history of the Ring at some point. > > Of course he knew the history of the Ring! But that wouldn't tell him > what the thing _looked_ like. Only two people of whom he knew had seen > it close enough to describe details, and as questioning Sauron was not > entirely a practical option he had to search for records left by > Isildur. My bad. But does he really need to go by its physical appearance? Couldn't he just sense the power in it? His behavior in the confrontation with Bilbo at the start of the book indicates that he is pretty sure it is the One Ring, and yet he waits 17 years before bothering to find out if it is. > >> Gandalf and Saruman > >> > >> Rides into Isengard, The "gate" is an arch, no gates visible (huh?). > >> Saruman looks great. Saruman already knows all Gandalf does and why he > >> is here, says that Sauron will win and it is better to go over to him. > > > >I guess the concept of two bad guys working against each other is too > >complex for most filmgoers, so Jackson made Saruman into just one of > >Sauron's lieutenants. > > This is also directly from the book. D'oh! I had remembered it completely differently. However Sauruman immediately goes on to say that if "they" could secure the One Ring, they would just displace Sauron. I hope that part isn't cut. ###### From: "Colin Lord" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Lines: 66 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:47:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.45.133.204 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1008917278 203.45.133.204 (Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:47:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:47:58 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:65160 "Ronald O. Christian" wrote in message news:t1kk1usme6iuv1ct9g322febns1cctiodk@4ax.com... > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:05:02 -0500, Rast wrote: > > >Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote on 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 > >+0100 in article <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: > >> > >> WARNING > >> > >> > >> This is a blow-by-blow review. If you are going to see the film and > >> do not want to already know all that happens: > >> > >> > >> LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW! > >> > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > >> > >> > >> spoiler space > > > > > >> Gandalf researches > >> > >> Flash to Gandalf riding (on horseback now) up to Minas Tirith. Wow! > >> Exactly like the pictures. Beautifly done. Then lead by someone with > >> an torch into underground archive. Studies books. Finds king Isildurs > >> report on how he got the ring. > > > >That a Maia could see the One Ring of Sauron and not recognised it for > >what it was has always struck me as a weak point of the book. But this > >is even worse. Gandalf needs to _research_ it? He's only been on Middle > >Earth a few thousand years; you'd think Elrond would have told him about > >the history of the Ring at some point. > > I would like to point out that this is a criticism of the book. > > I felt that it showed that Gandalf was not infallible, and therefore > more interesting. He proves elsewhere that he *does* forget things > over time. He was given human form when he came to middle earth. Who is say some of that memory loss wasn't from getting old ;) ###### From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Film review, my own, not link to journalists, massive spoiler, long Message-ID: <3c250882.3618433@news.powersurfr.com> References: <6uu1uun72j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 43 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:35:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.109.100.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 1009060494 24.109.100.252 (Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:34:54 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:34:54 MST Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:65615 On 13 Dec 2001 22:28:20 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote, in part: >Here we then had the apero break. In the discussion of our group >we all agreed that so far it is a) a good film, b) has some fairly >large deviations from the exact text, c) remains faithfull to the >important parts of the storyline. I agree too, and still felt that way after seeing the whole movie. >That even the mountain can be evil gets lost >for no film reason. Booo. No, the idea of the mountain being evil is just too strange to be able to show to people (who hadn't read the book) in a film without taking way too much time. This change *was* necessary for a "film reason". >And of course now the $64000 question: Balrog wings? I looked out >for them and did not see any. But a few of our group say they saw >_something_ on its back for a split second at the beginning. Yes, I thought I did too. I assume that PJ was trying to be "neutral" on that question. Of course, we never saw the shadow that looked like wings, which everyone agrees exists. >LoTR volume really needs one file per book, i.e. 6 films. Whether >that is financable or marketable is an other question. Even one two-hour feature film can't properly represent the contents of a normal-sized novel without a lot of cutting. A truly faithful adaptation would require a four-hour film, or two two-hour films, for each of the six books: 24 hours, not 12 hours. It would take an entire year ("season") to do as a one-hour TV series, but the episodic nature of that would cause problems as well. Of course, the budget would be lower and the effects less impressive. After PJ's effort, I don't think that will be tried for a *long* time. No one will want to do a less impressive, less spectacular, retelling of the same story. But a more impressive, more spectacular one is *not* what we need. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html