From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Possible (L)FAQ - Galadriel's Ban Date: 3 Dec 2001 03:26:52 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9ufggs$if1$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1007371614 8000 129.130.10.50 (3 Dec 2001 09:26:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:26:54 +0000 (UTC) Summary: ban on Galadriel's return to Aman Keywords: Galadriel's ban X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61459 This question may be an LFAQ if not a FAQ, as I remember discussing it (to no satisfactory conclusion) in 1995, but I'd like to reiterate it: How did Galadriel learn of the lifting of the ban upon her return to Aman? - Did Gandalf bring word back from the Valar (in which case I wonder how they phrased it to him, the outcome of the War of the Ring still being in doubt at the time)? - Did the remnant of the White Council telepathically commune with the Valar? (I doubt this, as there's no mention to my knowledge of even the palantiri being used so.) - Did she intuit it? I should hope someone TOLD her, as it would be a little embarrasing to have to turn that grey ship around and sail it back to M-e alone... #-) -- Banazir ###### From: Modemac Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Possible (L)FAQ - Galadriel's Ban Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 04:58:44 -0500 Organization: First Online Church of "Bob" Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <9ufggs$if1$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVafxMcP2exoNy3u15k6Y07deb3wiqsaOM0Un37HCJAMGCDGDwtFPixB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 2001 09:58:34 GMT X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-No-Archive: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Cancel-Lock: sha1:mcHOHuYaKZPlxIkk/znVfpDgv5I= Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61518 On 3 Dec 2001 03:26:52 -0600, bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) wrote: >- Did Gandalf bring word back from the Valar (in which case I wonder how > they phrased it to him, the outcome of the War of the Ring still being > in doubt at the time)? Since Gandalf spent two thousand years roaming around Middle-earth in the days before the War, I suspect this is probably close to the truth. Galadriel could have asked Olorin (Gandalf) what she could do to return to Aman; and Olorin could have told her that there will be "a test" of some sort that she would have to pass. She was a haughty soul, and Tolkien's writings in Unfinished Tales and History of Middle-Earth suggest that she actually enjoyed the power she weilded outside of Aman. So in order to prove that she wasn't corruped by power, she would be faced with a test to prove her worth. And so the test finally came to her, when Frodo came to Lorien. More I'll not say, so as not to spoil the movie. -- First Online Church of "Bob" http://www.modemac.com/ ###### Message-ID: <3C0B59A5.1D781DAC@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Possible (L)FAQ - Galadriel's Ban References: <9ufggs$if1$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 165 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:53:25 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.153 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1007376938 194.125.145.153 (Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:55:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:55:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61395 William H. Hsu wrote: > > This question may be an LFAQ if not a FAQ, as I remember discussing it > (to no satisfactory conclusion) in 1995, but I'd like to reiterate it: > > How did Galadriel learn of the lifting of the ban upon her return to Aman? > > - Did Gandalf bring word back from the Valar (in which case I wonder how > they phrased it to him, the outcome of the War of the Ring still being > in doubt at the time)? > > - Did the remnant of the White Council telepathically commune with the > Valar? (I doubt this, as there's no mention to my knowledge of even the > palantiri being used so.) > > - Did she intuit it? > > I should hope someone TOLD her, as it would be a little embarrasing to > have to turn that grey ship around and sail it back to M-e alone... #-) i) I think there was some vagueness of whether the ban persisted after the end fo the First Age and indeed to what degree it was lifted. The Noldor were not IIRC permitted to return to Aman but to Tol Eressea, *from whence* they might return to visit their kinsmen in Aman. Thus the ban was lifted from *all* Noldor to a limited degree, "except for some key players in the rebellion" of which Galadriel was one [don't ask where I got the quotation - a commentary on the LotR Song of Farewell from Lorien IIRC] ii) Galadriel was an unusual case, Firstly, having defended her mother's kin in the kinslaying and not taken part in the rape of the ships of the Teleri committed by Feanor and his sons, she fell under the Ban of the Valar by default, as it were. Secondly, she apparently went to Middle-Earth for complex reasons, not all directly associated with the recovery of the Silmarils. She wanted lands of her own to rule as she would. She also wanted to hinder Feanor. So again, her desires were not fuelled merely by rebellion to recover the Silmarils. iii) Galadriel took no part in the Wars against Morgoth, staying with Melian and Thingol in Doriath and departing over the Mountains after the First age ended, again distancing herself from the Feanorean "curse". Of all the Noldor, she alone maintained a Realm free from Morgoth [obviously, after his fall he wasn't around to trouble her] but also from his servant Sauron and Sauron's servant the Witch-King. iv) Finally her rejection of the temptation of the Ring was her rejection of Temporal power in Middle-Earth. It is clear from her comments at that time that she knew her sojourn was over. In The Mirror of Galadriel it is stated: "She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad." 'I pass the test,' she said. `I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.'" This seems conclusive proof that she herself knew the game, the players and the rules. However, the exact time that she would be allowed to return is not made clear in this statement, and as she was singing the Farewell lament, it is possible that she did not know exactly. Your comment about the Palantírí is pertinent but inconclusive, since we know Galadriel's Mirror possessed similar powers. Earlier in that chapter she states: "`Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, `and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look? '" This implies information at a distance could have come to her in this way. But there in one final way in which information could have been imparted which we are not privy to. On the way back from the coronation, after the departure of Aragorn, Council was held between Gandalf [new returned from parts West, Galadriel and Elrond]. In Many Partings, we are told: "Here now for seven days they tarried, for the time was at hand for another parting which they were loth to make. Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." Yet this might only have been final confirmation, since earlier in that chapter, Celeborn says to Aragorn as they part: Then Aragorn took leave of Celeborn and Galadriel; and the Lady said to him: 'Elfstone, through darkness you have come to your hope, and have now all your desire. Use well the days!' But Celeborn said: 'Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!' So he knew his wife would leave Middle Earth, which he would not. But this should not come as any surprise. Galadriel was a Noldor, who had been born in the Blessed Realm at the time of the Two Trees. She was prescient, as seen in her exchange with Treebeard: "Then Treebeard said farewell to each of them in turn, and he bowed three times slowly and with great reverence to Celeborn and Galadriel. 'It is long, long since we met by stock or by stone, A vanimar, vanimálion nostari!' he said. 'It is sad that we should meet only thus at the ending. For the world is changing: I feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air. I do not think we shall meet again.' And Celeborn said: 'I do not know, Eldest.' But Galadriel said: 'Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!'" But all this speculation on *how* she knew is subverted somewhat by *who* Galadriel was. From Unfinished Tales: "Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), 1 and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever." But even this tract does not define her primary attribute, the one which IMO does away with the need for any other method to impart knowledge of her situation: "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years." She was one of the oldest Elves in Middle-Earth, her wisdom increasing as she grew older. She was tutored by Melian the Maia after returning to Middle-Earth. She had Gandalf's counsel, he who had been Olorin in Aman. Her own wisdom, knowledge and contacts would have told her. M. ###### Message-ID: <3C0B59F2.BEC927C7@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Possible (L)FAQ - Galadriel's Ban References: <9ufggs$if1$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:54:42 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.153 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1007377013 194.125.145.153 (Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:56:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:56:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61398 Modemac wrote: > > On 3 Dec 2001 03:26:52 -0600, bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) > wrote: > >- Did Gandalf bring word back from the Valar (in which case I wonder how > > they phrased it to him, the outcome of the War of the Ring still being > > in doubt at the time)? > > Since Gandalf spent two thousand years roaming around Middle-earth in > the days before the War, I suspect this is probably close to the > truth. Galadriel could have asked Olorin (Gandalf) what she could do > to return to Aman; and Olorin could have told her that there will be > "a test" of some sort that she would have to pass. Gandalf only returned from death after she had passed the test. FWIW M. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Possible (L)FAQ - Galadriel's Ban References: <9ufggs$if1$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 47 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1007396191 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:16:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:16:31 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: zzNO7-11022-t4-1836@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 08ab6608 b45c4e89 10737384 2cb3ecaa e348115c Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:16:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61462 Quoth Modemac in article : > bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) wrote: > >- Did Gandalf bring word back from the Valar (in which case I wonder how > > they phrased it to him, the outcome of the War of the Ring still being > > in doubt at the time)? > Since Gandalf spent two thousand years roaming around Middle-earth > in the days before the War, I suspect this is probably close to the > truth. Galadriel could have asked Olorin (Gandalf) what she could > do to return to Aman; and Olorin could have told her that there will > be "a test" of some sort that she would have to pass. This answer seems fairly likely, actually (although I'm not sure whether such a message would have been brought to her by Gandalf or Saruman). Galadriel's comments immediately after she refuses the Ring suggest that she knew _right then_ that she would "pass into the West" (and that she was quite aware that her choice had been a test). In fact, my biggest concern is almost that the fit is _too_ good: it seems that the test would lose some of its accuracy if she recognized it in advance. I guess it is quite possible that she only recognized what had just happened after she made her choice. Another possibility that has been suggested in the past is a direct revelation from the Valar at that same moment. (The Valar _could_ undoubtedly have sent her a direct "telepathic" message, as described in the essay "Osanwe-kenta", published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #39 which is available for $2 from http://www.elvish.org/.) In fact, the two scenarios are not mutually exclusive, particularly if the "message" was a subtle one (that is, the Valar could have simply slipped the firm idea that this was her test into her train of thought). > And so the test finally came to her, when Frodo came to Lorien. > More I'll not say, so as not to spoil the movie. I'm really looking forward to the movies, but I very much enjoy discussing the books and I'm not going to let the movies interfere with that. I tell people every other day that these groups are filled with spoilers for the plot of LotR. I'm certainly not going to refrain from discussing questions about RotK until 2004! If people show up here, they've got to be aware that we'll tell them that Galadriel is tempted by the Ring, that Gandalf dies and then returns, that Aragorn is on the black ships, and that Gollum bites off Frodo's finger with the Ring before tumbling himself into the fires of doom. Discussing such things is what these groups are all about. Steuard Jensen