From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:27:56 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 87 Message-ID: <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-49-163.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59793 "John McCafferty" wrote in message news:aiEL7.38304> Depends on what you mean by "Witch". > IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY, in some dialects > of british (usually in england) it means druid or wiccan, nice > harmless pantheists. In other dialects (mostly in Scotland) > it means devil-worshipper, possibly able to wield powers > from the forces that they worship, possibly not. In american > english, the meaning is all mixed up. > That's what an englishman told me back in '72. I think I > understood him correctly. Any britshers reading this, if you've > got any corrections, I'm interested in seeing them. TIA. What a load of cack, I come from Scotland but I lived in many parts of England as well, and the meanings are just the same. The Englishman you talked to probably thought that All Scotsmen walked about in Kilts, this being possible because many Englishmen never set foot in Scotland and know of it only as a land of kilts and haggis. I've actually seen more kilts and haggis OUTSIDE of Scotland than in, unless of course you only frequent cheesy tourist shops. Anyway, in the UK and America now as well there are two meanings of the word 'Witch', the common, superstitious Christian fantasy/horrorstory and the REAL meaning and origin of the word. The word 'Witch' actually comes from the word 'Wicca' which as some of you celtic types know is an offshoot of the many branches/developments of Celtic/pagan nature-orientated religion. The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the Christian church in Medieval times. The church mainly didn't approve of other religions and so tried to discredit them as much as possible. One way of scaring people away from their old religions and get them running towards you is to use the Devil. The Devil, Satan Lucifer, whatever, is actually a Judeo/Christian creation, indeed a Christian/Judean deity, Wiccans/pagans do not acknowledge his existence, only Judeo/Christians do, which is a bit ironic. Satan is simply a propaganda device to scare people with. As a model for their lovely new Satan they stole the old horned god image of Curnunos, or Kerne, also know by many other names, a Celtic forest hunting god, known throughout Europe, who was represented with antlers. Unfortunately for old Cernunos, he was about to undergo a dramatic personality change and physical reconstruction AND a name change. He eventually suffered the humiliation of his present popular image, but the whole cloven hoof/horns aspect belies his ancient Celtic origins. Silly people will say, 'well you do get black magic and devil worship'. Yes you do, but these people are NOT true Wiccans/Celts. They are just wankers who are just trying to increase their own small penis size by making a deal about worshiping Satan, the actually reason of course being the outrage this will cause among Christian conservatives, they 'get off' on the thrill of it. What so called 'devil worshipers' and other such fools don't realise is, Their great act of rebellion is automatically undermined, because in their great quest to rebel against Christianity, they are actually worshipping a Christian creation!!! Of course, Christian conservatives are also too dumb to see this. Its all just propaganda conducted by the church against older religions. You really should take Witchcraft & European history or some other similar course at Uni if you want to find out more about all this, I took it last year. Its a real eye-opener. Another amazing thing is how all Christian festivals like Christmas & Easter are Celtic in origin. The Christians simply 'rewired them' Even Halloween is actually the old Celtic festival of Samhein. Anyway, This really goes well beyond whether the word 'witch' has the same meaning in England and Scotland! I just thought I would explain a bit more about the whole issue of Wicca since it is now one of the fastest growing religions in the US and the UK, I think its good but I get a lot of Christian ignorance/fundamentalist backlash. I'm sure they would like to go back to the good old days of the inquisition or the Witch trials! Of course, before some one says somthing, Celtic religion had its bad old day as well, ever seen the wicca man? That kind of thing was done (but not in 1973!!!) but in dark age Europe, although this practice was abandanced by Celtic priests (druids) BEFORE the advent of Christianity. Anyway Chrisitans cannot pass judgment.... The Crusades anyone? Blessed be, Douglas ###### Message-ID: <3BFFAB55.BE0DD28C@mfx.net> From: pmhilton@mfx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:14:34 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-sU2kmE+EUJXQ2FFUlgBFredkFgJYD/8V2L9pIgenOwtOXZB8iCM14zD62jMiveoULpUSc9XVANQ500Q!V5tTxzERQEo2QdWjRvgLZ05gVhotPMZo8PnRzW8TejSANdEsnhxQ57E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:14:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59837 > > The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the > Christian church in Medieval times. (snip) > As a model for their lovely new Satan they stole the old horned god image of > Curnunos, or Kerne, also know by many other names, a Celtic forest hunting > god, known throughout Europe, who was represented with antlers. > Unfortunately for old Cernunos, he was about to undergo a dramatic > personality change and physical reconstruction AND a name change. > He eventually suffered the humiliation of his present popular image, but the > whole cloven hoof/horns aspect belies his ancient Celtic origins. A very sympathetic treatment of this is to be found in Mary Stewart's Merlin/Arthur novels. > > > > What so called 'devil worshipers' and other such fools don't realise is, > Their great act of rebellion is automatically undermined, because in their > great quest to rebel against Christianity, they are actually worshipping a > Christian creation!!! > Of course, Christian conservatives are also too dumb to see this. > That's part of the "conservative" mold. > > Another amazing thing is how all Christian festivals like Christmas & Easter > are Celtic in origin. > The Christians simply 'rewired them' > Even Halloween is actually the old Celtic festival of Samhein. Actually, all Christian festivals have their roots in earlier religions. Just about the only "original" thought in Christianity is to promote "original sin" and equate it with sexual activity. Pete Hilton aka The Ent -- When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson ###### From: James Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 68 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.66 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1006616875 210.80.135.66 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:47:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:47:55 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:47:43 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59684 Douglas Eckhart : >The word 'Witch' actually comes from the word 'Wicca' which as some of you >celtic types know is an offshoot of the many branches/developments of >Celtic/pagan nature-orientated religion. The word "Wicca" is an Old English term which had pretty much the same negative connotations as "Witch" does today. Wicca as a religion is not in any way similar to the Celtic "nature-oriented" religion; its inspirations are more Buddhist than anything, although its followers tend to prefer Celtic-style doodlings in their schoolbooks. What I've never understood is: if Wiccans are so upset by the negative connotations of the word "Witch", why did they choose that word to describe themselves? >The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the >Christian church in Medieval times. The church mainly didn't approve of >other religions and so tried to discredit them as much as possible. I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; as is happening in many Muslim countries now, the European Christian dictatorships used their religion as an excuse to viciously persecute women. >One way >of scaring people away from their old religions and get them running towards >you is to use the Devil. The Devil, Satan Lucifer, whatever, is actually a >Judeo/Christian creation, indeed a Christian/Judean deity, Wiccans/pagans do >not acknowledge his existence, only Judeo/Christians do, which is a bit >ironic. No, it's not, because The Inquisition had nothing to do with Wiccans. The Wiccan religion is an invention of the 20th century, a mishmash of Eastern, Norse, and pagan tradition. This is extremely ironic, as Wiccans often try to accuse Christians of "stealing" their holidays and beliefs! All religions absorb some beliefs of neighbouring religions; at least the Christian religion isn't a *completely* based on plagiarism! >Satan is simply a propaganda device to scare people with. >As a model for their lovely new Satan they stole the old horned god image of >Curnunos, or Kerne, also know by many other names, a Celtic forest hunting >god, known throughout Europe, who was represented with antlers. >Unfortunately for old Cernunos, he was about to undergo a dramatic >personality change and physical reconstruction AND a name change. >He eventually suffered the humiliation of his present popular image, but the >whole cloven hoof/horns aspect belies his ancient Celtic origins. Nope. The cloven hoof/horn aspect actually comes from Lucifer's association with the goat, a common cross-cultural symbol of lust and vice, and far predates Christianity spreading to Europe. What are you implying? That Christian missionaries in Europe actually got together and said: "To terrorise this innocent and 100%-original religion, let's invent a new God in ours, and steal one of their most beloved images, thus tarnishing its memory forever! Mwahahaha! We are truly the kings of evil!"? Wiccans often try to rewrite history to make Christianity seem bad, and their fabrications are often widely propagated by atheists and LaVeyan Satanists. As a fairly hardcore atheist, I would like to apologise to all Christians on behalf of my fellow nonbelievers for this disingenuous and often meanspirited ideological distortion of the truth. Sorry, guys! James (first OT flame in this NG. oh boy, here we go.) ###### From: James Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Message-ID: <79gvvtkl6g9fniuathdn2467j82mo91t1i@4ax.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3BFFAB55.BE0DD28C@mfx.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.66 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1006616974 210.80.135.66 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:49:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:49:34 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:49:23 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59823 pmhilton@mfx.net : >Actually, all Christian festivals have their roots in earlier religions. >Just >about the only "original" thought in Christianity is to promote "original sin" >and equate it with sexual activity. How come people are so calm about slurring Christianity these days? Nobody would be able to attack Jewish religion like this and get away with it, and people certainly get uppity when Christians make similar statements about Wicca and Asatru. James ###### From: "Noora " Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:30:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG Lines: 78 Message-ID: <086e099bcbd58ff29aff8f892b0542a8.44320@mygate.mailgate.org> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cache-hki-4.inet.fi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.mailgate.org 1006602012 2224 194.251.240.108 (Sat Nov 24 19:30:46 2001) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mailgate.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:30:46 +0000 (UTC) Injector-Info: news.mailgate.org; posting-host=cache-hki-4.inet.fi; posting-account=44320; posting-date=1006602012 User-Agent: Mailgate Web Server X-URL: http://www.Mailgate.ORG Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!web2news!cache-hki-4.inet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59732 "James" wrote in message > Douglas Eckhart : > >The word 'Witch' actually comes from the word 'Wicca' which as some of you > >celtic types know is an offshoot of the many branches/developments of > >Celtic/pagan nature-orientated religion. > The word "Wicca" is an Old English term which had pretty much the same > negative connotations as "Witch" does today. I'm in the belief the root word for 'wicca', in Germanic languages, meant 'wise'. AFAIR one etymological explanation gives 'wicca' as 'bender of reality'. You got to go further than OE. > Wicca as a religion is > not in any way similar to the Celtic "nature-oriented" religion; its > inspirations are more Buddhist than anything, although its followers > tend to prefer Celtic-style doodlings in their schoolbooks. > What I've never understood is: if Wiccans are so upset by the negative > connotations of the word "Witch", why did they choose that word to > describe themselves? They use 'Wiccan', not 'Witch', at least those I know. (Some persons on the internet and one guy from the universtity. Of technology.) And if you're asking why the word 'wicca' with its assumed negative connections, read what I said above. (Okay, so there's the term 'witchcraft' in the Finnish term for wicca ('uusnoituus'). But Xianity didn't _really_ come heavy here until the 12th century, and the original meaning for the word 'noita', 'witch', was a positive one.) > >The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the > >Christian church in Medieval times. The church mainly didn't approve of > >other religions and so tried to discredit them as much as possible. > I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not > so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; And non-Catholics, also Xians of other sects. And if someone just happened to hold a grudge and wanted a nice clean revenge, well... not so much an exhibion of misogyny as one or dogmatism and petty jealousy. The Inquisition started on the 12th century, long after Xianity had permeated the 'civilized' parts of Europe quite thoroughly. > >One way > >of scaring people away from their old religions and get them running towards > >you is to use the Devil. The Devil, Satan Lucifer, whatever, is actually a > >Judeo/Christian creation, indeed a Christian/Judean deity, Wiccans/pagans do > >not acknowledge his existence, only Judeo/Christians do, which is a bit > >ironic. > No, it's not, because The Inquisition had nothing to do with Wiccans. > The Wiccan religion is an invention of the 20th century, a mishmash of > Eastern, Norse, and pagan tradition. Who says it isn't? Anyone knows that. If it works what've you got to complain? The purpose of religion is to give people solace. I just can't understand how you manage to link Inquisition and Wicca. > What are you > implying? That Christian missionaries in Europe actually got together > and said: "To terrorise this innocent and 100%-original religion, > let's invent a new God in ours, and steal one of their most beloved > images, thus tarnishing its memory forever! Mwahahaha! We are truly > the kings of evil!"? You're sure reading him in a funny way, mister. - Noora -- Posted from cache-hki-4.inet.fi [194.251.240.108] via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:24:16 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C001E0E.3DDF8378@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3BFFAB55.BE0DD28C@mfx.net> <79gvvtkl6g9fniuathdn2467j82mo91t1i@4ax.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZNiys34eB3HgiRxQppSCfnvRpnOhOfgcv4G6bodOep9kdro4Qxo/vf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 22:45:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59847 James wrote: > How come people are so calm about slurring Christianity these days? > Nobody would be able to attack Jewish religion like this and get away > with it, and people certainly get uppity when Christians make similar > statements about Wicca and Asatru. I've never spoken a bad word about Asatru, because I don't know what it is. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:25:42 -0500 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C001E63.87026C63@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ83+Rg/plJwLgzRJihFwwWewPTYph4RxcwMVrQB6TEFEvFFABKgde9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 22:45:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59866 James wrote: > I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not > so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; How so? The Inquisition was concerned with doctrinal heresy. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:25:42 -0500 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C001E63.87026C63@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ83+Rg/plJwLgzRJihFwwWewPTYph4RxcwMVrQB6TEFEvFFABKgde9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 22:45:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59866 James wrote: > I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not > so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; How so? The Inquisition was concerned with doctrinal heresy. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:27:43 -0500 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C001EDC.6ECFC59@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <086e099bcbd58ff29aff8f892b0542a8.44320@mygate.mailgate.org> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaghSuQsWU0iOHD420GhJUnxjrEuWrc80lmBwwmc6+N1rxny92yvBl/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 22:45:46 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59867 Noora wrote: > > I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not > > so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; > > And non-Catholics, also Xians of other sects. Its jurisdiction was limited to rooting out heresy among Catholics. > And if someone just happened to > hold a grudge and wanted a nice clean revenge, well... not so much an exhibion > of misogyny as one or dogmatism and petty jealousy. That might fit your mental picture, but it doesn't fit the facts. The accused was allowed to make a list of his enemies, and all of their testimony was stricken. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:44:37 -0500 Lines: 74 Message-ID: <3C0022D2.FC43DE72@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYmtf3G4vWv2r6qzP7udWTH1Qou1Tdr6/6Ty/ocZAQ0gD65p7Z9E2EA X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 22:45:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59846 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > The word 'Witch' actually comes from the word 'Wicca' which as some of you > celtic types know is an offshoot of the many branches/developments of > Celtic/pagan nature-orientated religion. Not an historical offshoot. Modern paganism/wicca is a re-creation from the 19th Century of pre-Christian druidism as perceived by its modern adherents. > The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the > Christian church in Medieval times. The witch-burnings and stuff happened much later than that. > The church mainly didn't approve of > other religions and so tried to discredit them as much as possible. One way > of scaring people away from their old religions and get them running towards > you is to use the Devil. The Devil, Satan Lucifer, whatever, is actually a > Judeo/Christian creation, indeed a Christian/Judean deity, Satan is a fallen angel, not a god. And using the term "Judeo/Christian" will get you in trouble with people on this list, if you can believe it. > Satan is simply a propaganda device to scare people with. I thought he was a deity? > As a model for their lovely new Satan they stole the old horned god image of > Curnunos, or Kerne, also know by many other names, a Celtic forest hunting > god, known throughout Europe, who was represented with antlers. As James pointed out, this is historically false. > Silly people will say, 'well you do get black magic and devil worship'. Yes > you do, but these people are NOT true Wiccans/Celts. > They are just wankers who are just trying to increase their own small penis > size by making a deal about worshiping Satan, the actually reason of course > being the outrage this will cause among Christian conservatives, they 'get > off' on the thrill of it. Are you saying that Satanists are in it just to annoy Jerry Falwell? How many people choose their religion with an eye toward annoying other people? > Another amazing thing is how all Christian festivals like Christmas & Easter > are Celtic in origin. Easter is derived chronologically from Passover, a Jewish festival. > I just thought I would explain a bit more about the whole issue of Wicca > since it is now one of the fastest growing religions in the US and the UK, I > think its good but I get a lot of Christian ignorance/fundamentalist > backlash. I'm sure they would like to go back to the good old days of the > inquisition or the Witch trials! > Anyway Chrisitans cannot pass judgment.... The Crusades anyone? You obviously have some issues that need to be worked out. I suggest you correct all of the above falsehoods by reading up from less biased sources (they don't have to be Christian, but they shouldn't be wiccan either). And try to get over your hostility toward Christians. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### Reply-To: "TradeSurplus" From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.65.172 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1006642196 ST000 64.252.65.172 (Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:49:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:49:56 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: O@XMR]GDTRUSP_PXKBNXKQ@@AZJTB_LILIXNMVMHQYUJUZ]CCVWCPG[YMDXZH^[K[FFQZHBM@FX\NJOCW^TGNQLFRFU_HSDIHX[FCUWCXLP@PBL\BKFXXVGCM\CCKFVL_T[GJLBM@Q^]WKGS]T]M^NG_YKYVGV_IJYXS@MCBT[@JPRXECDFZMSXG]NVQQTJL Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:50:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59872 "James" wrote in message news:sjfvvt08vcvuh9057oif8eclvskg7ogvrq@4ax.com... > Douglas Eckhart : > >The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the > >Christian church in Medieval times. The church mainly didn't approve of > >other religions and so tried to discredit them as much as possible. > > I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not > so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; I was on the verge of taking you seriously until I read this sentence. In the future, if you want to make a point you should be aware that including an obvious untruth within your argument only weakens the whole case. When the lie is so blatant and easy to spot as this one then no-one will believe anything you say afterwards. Trade. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 15:09:51 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3BFFAB55.BE0DD28C@mfx.net> <79gvvtkl6g9fniuathdn2467j82mo91t1i@4ax.com> <3C001E0E.3DDF8378@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c37.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59975 In article <3C001E0E.3DDF8378@erols.com>, FotW@erols.com wrote: >James wrote: > >> How come people are so calm about slurring Christianity these days? >> Nobody would be able to attack Jewish religion like this and get away >> with it, and people certainly get uppity when Christians make similar >> statements about Wicca and Asatru. > >I've never spoken a bad word about Asatru, because >I don't know what it is. or odinism a revival of the old prechristian german religions othin thor freyja and the rest of the aesir and vanir the controversy is that a chunk of the revivers are bigots and neonazis that have abandoned christianity because it could no longer be distorted to support their hatred and even christian identity is no longer acceptable the question is whether all asatru are these kinds of bigots like christian identity or just a small part like kkk protestant ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <086e099bcbd58ff29aff8f892b0542a8.44320@mygate.mailgate.org> <3C001EDC.6ECFC59@erols.com> Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:00:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.212 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1006646430 12.79.28.212 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:00:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:00:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59932 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C001EDC.6ECFC59@erols.com... Of the Inquisition; > Its jurisdiction was limited to rooting out heresy among Catholics. Don't forget the 'werewolves', 'witches' and 'faggots' (which used to just mean firewood until they started using it for other things they were burning). > That might fit your mental picture, but it doesn't fit the facts. > The accused was allowed to make a list of his enemies, and > all of their testimony was stricken. Um... Flame, you aren't seriously suggesting that the Inquisition was a 'fair and impartial' process here are you? It may have started out that way, but the eventual result was a truly appalling evil. ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 01:55:09 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo Lines: 38 Message-ID: <9tpfa4$ap8$1@news.wanadoo.es> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <086e099bcbd58ff29aff8f892b0542a8.44320@mygate.mailgate.org> <3C001EDC.6ECFC59@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-36-105-71.dialup.uni2.es X-Trace: news.wanadoo.es 1006649477 11048 62.36.105.71 (25 Nov 2001 00:51:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@wanadoo.es NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:51:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!opentransit.net!newsfeed.comtenidos.com!newsfeeder.wanadoo.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59897 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C001EDC.6ECFC59@erols.com... > > Noora wrote: > > > > I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not > > > so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; > > > > And non-Catholics, also Xians of other sects. > > Its jurisdiction was limited to rooting out heresy among Catholics. Which included nearly everybody, since you couldn't quit being a catholic: if you claimed you weren't anymore, you were heretic and thus fair prey. The few non-catholic residents were forced to convert more than once. > > And if someone just happened to > > hold a grudge and wanted a nice clean revenge, well... not so much an exhibion > > of misogyny as one or dogmatism and petty jealousy. > > That might fit your mental picture, but it doesn't fit the facts. > The accused was allowed to make a list of his enemies, and > all of their testimony was stricken. The procedures of the tribunals varied, and you must distinguish between the written procedures and the real practice. There are records of inquisition cases which smell very strongly of personal revenges or of plots to grab somebody's posessions. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:54:03 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59970 On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:27:56 -0000, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: > >The word 'Witch' actually comes from the word 'Wicca' which as some of you >celtic types know is an offshoot of the many branches/developments of >Celtic/pagan nature-orientated religion. > Now the above is the true nonsense, promulgated by contemporary 'New Age' so-called 'wiccan' groups. Witches, under many names - usually the local vernacular, have been identified by every known human culture. Each culture attributes different properties to witches. Northwest Europe has identified them as evil, devil-spawn for at least 500 years and probably over one thousand years longer. The fact that magic, in any of its spellings, is superstitious nonsense aided by the use of toxic herbs, does not alter the ancient and modern meanings of the word' witch' nor the evil intent of most 'real' witches. To believe that modern 'Wiccan' is the old Celtic religion is contemporary nonsense and a great dishonor to the shades of our Celtic ancestors and their gods. It was developed by conscious modern frauds for the purpose of fleecing the credulous and is maintained largely by adolescents (of many ages) who still want to shock and dismay Mommy and Daddy. So they will graft literally *anything* onto their 'religion' that Mommy and Daddy disapprove of, even the psychotic Mommy and Daddy of their inward imaginings (the real Mommy and Daddy probably not giving two hoots about the whole thing, or being deceased). If adult children choose to act like sub-clinical psychotics, what difference does it make? Yours in Love and Peace, the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- What you have to do is take the bull by the teeth. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:25:04 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3BFFAB55.BE0DD28C@mfx.net> <79gvvtkl6g9fniuathdn2467j82mo91t1i@4ax.com> <3C001E0E.3DDF8378@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60023 On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:24:16 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: >James wrote: >> How come people are so calm about slurring Christianity these days? >> Nobody would be able to attack Jewish religion like this and get away >> with it, and people certainly get uppity when Christians make similar >> statements about Wicca and Asatru. > >I've never spoken a bad word about Asatru, because >I don't know what it is. It is another 'Johnny-come-lately' contemporary pseudo-religion based on the old Norse worship of the gods of the Eddas. Apparently they have forgone the horse and human sacrifices. Fortunately this one was not invented in GB or California. It was either Danes or Icelander, I believe. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have. ###### From: James Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.107 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1006665089 210.80.135.107 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:11:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:11:29 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:11:17 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60019 TradeSurplus : >> I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not >> so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; >I was on the verge of taking you seriously until I read this sentence. In >the future, if you want to make a point you should be aware that including >an obvious untruth within your argument only weakens the whole case. When >the lie is so blatant and easy to spot as this one then no-one will believe >anything you say afterwards. Whoops! Really, it wasn't a "blatant lie" so much as an "obvious untruth" - not an intentional slip-up, just a very unfortunate rush-job of a sentence. See my response to Flame. James ###### From: James Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <086e099bcbd58ff29aff8f892b0542a8.44320@mygate.mailgate.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.107 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1006666419 210.80.135.107 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:33:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:33:39 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:33:27 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60031 Noora : >They use 'Wiccan', not 'Witch', at least those I know. (Some persons on the >internet and one guy from the universtity. Of technology.) And if you're asking >why the word 'wicca' with its assumed negative connections, read what I said >above. Really? Odd. Maybe there are differing Wiccan schools of thought on the matter. The ones I encounter refer to themselves as Witches (and take issue with Harry Potter's inaccurate portrayal of the witching lifestyle!!!). >> >The 'Witches' of popular folklore are a complete fantasy concocted by the >> >Christian church in Medieval times. The church mainly didn't approve of >> >other religions and so tried to discredit them as much as possible. >> I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not >> so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; >And non-Catholics, also Xians of other sects. And if someone just happened to >hold a grudge and wanted a nice clean revenge, well... not so much an exhibion >of misogyny as one or dogmatism and petty jealousy. Aye, aye. I've learned my lesson. >> No, it's not, because The Inquisition had nothing to do with Wiccans. >> The Wiccan religion is an invention of the 20th century, a mishmash of >> Eastern, Norse, and pagan tradition. > >Who says it isn't? Anyone knows that Douglas (I think) attempted to link, to some extent, modern Wiccans with the ye-olde-Christian-persecuted-witches. >If it works what've you got to complain? >The purpose of religion is to give people solace. Exactly; and yet Christianity's "theft" of older traditions and holidays often come under fire from modern non-Christians. That's been one of my main points so far. James ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 01:54:51 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 110 Message-ID: <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-71-151.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59961 WOD is my word for the word 'word', so says the wod on the street. Sorry, James but you were saying: >The word "Wicca" is an Old English term which had pretty much the same >negative connotations as "Witch" does today. Wicca as a religion is >not in any way similar to the Celtic "nature-oriented" religion; its >inspirations are more Buddhist than anything, although its followers >tend to prefer Celtic-style doodlings in their schoolbooks. >What I've never understood is: if Wiccans are so upset by the negative >connotations of the word "Witch", why did they choose that word to >describe themselves? I would disagree that it had negative connotations originally. As I said, this was the case once Christian propaganda started to filter into peoples minds. Pagan Anglo-Saxon 'witches' were not 'evil' as such. >I assume you are referring to the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not >so much a case religious persecution as much as it was a sexist one; >as is happening in many Muslim countries now, the European Christian >dictatorships used their religion as an excuse to viciously persecute >women. I wasent referring to them actually, but to Christianity in general. Sure, the Inquisition were assholes and the things accused of them are well an true. No, Christianity will as a rule, try to discredit and claim as evil or 'satanic' the religions it tries to replace. This happened where ever it spread. Christianity as a premise, cannot tolerate other religions. Sooner or later, if people haven't changed their minds about it, things start to get more forceful, religious repression appears. In Anglo-Saxon England, once Christianity had a firm hold, people who still openly followed the older religions were persecuted and accused of 'devil worship'. Things still haven't changed. For example, The Archbishop of Canterbury refused to allow the use of the cathedral because he was concerned about the 'pagan aspects of the work involved'. >No, it's not, because The Inquisition had nothing to do with Wiccans. >The Wiccan religion is an invention of the 20th century, a mishmash of >Eastern, Norse, and pagan tradition. This is extremely ironic, as >Wiccans often try to accuse Christians of "stealing" their holidays >and beliefs! All religions absorb some beliefs of neighbouring >religions; at least the Christian religion isn't a *completely* based >on plagiarism! Yeah, but come on, every festival is nicked off an older Celtic/pagan one, you know why? The trouble was that these festival were too popular, too ingrained in peoples life, so rather than try to force their abolishment, they simply adapted them. Samhein or Halloween has been one that Christianity has never quite been happy with however. >Nope. The cloven hoof/horn aspect actually comes from Lucifer's >association with the goat, a common cross-cultural symbol of lust and >vice, and far predates Christianity spreading to Europe. What are you >implying? That Christian missionaries in Europe actually got together >and said: "To terrorise this innocent and 100%-original religion, >let's invent a new God in ours, and steal one of their most beloved >images, thus tarnishing its memory forever! Mwahahaha! We are truly >the kings of evil!"? Nope, but the cloven hoof IS a throwback to Cernunos, one name among many for a primordial deity connected with trees/hunting/ yes AND fertility! Yes this figure was common across Europe, But The worship of this horned god IS certainly the origin behind the Christian corruption. 'Lust and vice' is a rather Christian biased view. 'Fertility' is more correct. Oh, by the way, 'Lucifer' was originally the Roman god of the Morning Star, you can read a bit about him in OVID, and has nothing to do with 'the Devil.' I am not sure however, when poor Lucifer was press-ganged into the service of the lord of darkness. The point though is that the image of this primordial god image WAS deliberatly tarnished, over time, using the old 'our god is better than yours' routine. Over time as the older horned god image was discredited and more negative attributes would naturally be attached to it. Eventially it became the face of the christians' 'Devil'. >Wiccans often try to rewrite history to make Christianity seem bad, >and their fabrications are often widely propagated by atheists and >LaVeyan Satanists. As a fairly hardcore atheist, I would like to >apologise to all Christians on behalf of my fellow nonbelievers for >this disingenuous and often meanspirited ideological distortion of the >truth. Sorry, guys! You said that not a lot of people would dare take issue with Judean beliefs, true, but someone really should as they are just as bad. The worst thing about Judaism is that it will go to great lengths to prevent any criticism/research into its TRUE history/origin. They hold back legitimate academic research in Israel. For example, Secular archaeologists and historians will not be overly welcome in Israel. Only 'religious' archaeology/history is accepted. Anyone trying to do any proper research is shown the door. Its pretty sad, most Judeo 'history' is just pure mythology, but there its taken as fact. Any 'normal' historian/archaeologist that even dares to suggest that all the origin histories are a bit dodgy will soon find their research grant withdrawn. >James >(first OT flame in this NG. oh boy, here we go.) Where? I dont see any flames. Only an interesting debate. Regards, Douglas ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 20:20:52 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3cs00u0nk1b31qgjnsd2nth5spi4lgv7io@4ax.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60028 On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 01:54:51 -0000, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >Pagan Anglo-Saxon 'witches' were not 'evil' as such. Nonsense! That statement demonstrates how mush you do NOT know! the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- People must not do things for fun. We are not here for fun. There is no reference to fun in any Act of Parliament. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:55:58 -0500 Lines: 54 Message-ID: <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa2L/mPi4+QEPUdzCWLje5UAqYxI2chgs4oi2U8l0LjbcSwXnGCHWsb X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2001 04:56:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59869 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > In Anglo-Saxon England, once Christianity had a firm hold, people who still > openly followed the older religions were persecuted and accused of 'devil > worship'. > Things still haven't changed. For example, The Archbishop of Canterbury > refused to allow the use of the cathedral because he was concerned about the > 'pagan aspects of the work involved'. > Yeah, but come on, every festival is nicked off an older Celtic/pagan one, Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is not pagan. > Nope, but the cloven hoof IS a throwback to Cernunos, one name among many > for a primordial deity connected with trees/hunting/ yes AND fertility! Yes > this figure was common across Europe, But The worship of this horned god IS > certainly the origin behind the Christian corruption. The Church encountered devotees of "horned gods" long before it evangelized Northern Europe. They were to be found in the Near East and India. > 'Lust and vice' is a rather Christian biased view. 'Fertility' is more correct. The Church has never had a problem with fertility. Indeed, we Catholics are criticized for having too many children. When we speak of "lust and vice", we are referring to lust and vice. > You said that not a lot of people would dare take issue with Judean beliefs, > true, but someone really should as they are just as bad. > The worst thing about Judaism is that it will go to great lengths to prevent > any criticism/research into its TRUE history/origin. They hold back > legitimate academic research in Israel. > For example, Secular archaeologists and historians will not be overly > welcome in Israel. > Only 'religious' archaeology/history is accepted. > Anyone trying to do any proper research is shown the door. Its pretty sad, > most Judeo 'history' is just pure mythology, but there its taken as fact. > Any 'normal' historian/archaeologist that even dares to suggest that all the > origin histories are a bit dodgy will soon find their research grant > withdrawn. You think the Jewish state should welcome a bunch of latter-day Baal worshippers claiming to be "secular"? I don't think so. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: James Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 106 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.107 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1006665851 210.80.135.107 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:24:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:24:11 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:23:58 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59972 Douglas Eckhart : >WOD is my word for the word 'word', so says the wod on the street. :) >>The word "Wicca" is an Old English term which had pretty much the same >>negative connotations as "Witch" does today. Wicca as a religion is >>not in any way similar to the Celtic "nature-oriented" religion; its >>inspirations are more Buddhist than anything, although its followers >>tend to prefer Celtic-style doodlings in their schoolbooks. >>What I've never understood is: if Wiccans are so upset by the negative >>connotations of the word "Witch", why did they choose that word to >>describe themselves? >I would disagree that it had negative connotations originally. As I said, >this was the case once Christian propaganda started to filter into peoples >minds. Pagan Anglo-Saxon 'witches' were not 'evil' as such. Okay, I'm going to resort to that most dreaded of Usenet argumentative tactics. What's your source on this? >No, Christianity will as a rule, try to discredit and claim as evil or >'satanic' the religions it tries to replace. >This happened where ever it spread. Christianity as a premise, cannot >tolerate other religions. Nor can any religion, really, that came up separately to another religion. Because they're both often mutually exclusive, there are only two possible courses of action for when two religions come in contact with each other: either aspects of each religion can be absorbed into the other, or each religion can deny the truth of the other. Either way, it seems that when non-Christians do it it's perfectly acceptable, but when Christians do it it's a big no-no. >>No, it's not, because The Inquisition had nothing to do with Wiccans. >>The Wiccan religion is an invention of the 20th century, a mishmash of >>Eastern, Norse, and pagan tradition. This is extremely ironic, as >>Wiccans often try to accuse Christians of "stealing" their holidays >>and beliefs! All religions absorb some beliefs of neighbouring >>religions; at least the Christian religion isn't a *completely* based >>on plagiarism! >Yeah, but come on, every festival is nicked off an older Celtic/pagan one, >you know why? The trouble was that these festival were too popular, too >ingrained in peoples life, so rather than try to force their abolishment, >they simply adapted them. >Samhein or Halloween has been one that Christianity has never quite been >happy with however. I'm impressed with your grasp of general knowledge, but >>Nope. The cloven hoof/horn aspect actually comes from Lucifer's >>association with the goat, a common cross-cultural symbol of lust and >>vice, and far predates Christianity spreading to Europe. What are you >>implying? That Christian missionaries in Europe actually got together >>and said: "To terrorise this innocent and 100%-original religion, >>let's invent a new God in ours, and steal one of their most beloved >>images, thus tarnishing its memory forever! Mwahahaha! We are truly >>the kings of evil!"? >Nope, but the cloven hoof IS a throwback to Cernunos, one name among many >for a primordial deity connected with trees/hunting/ yes AND fertility! Yes >this figure was common across Europe, But The worship of this horned god IS >certainly the origin behind the Christian corruption. 'Lust and vice' is a >rather Christian biased view. 'Fertility' is more correct. N-n-n-nooo... really, the reason Satan is portrayed as goat-like (or with some goat-like qualities) predates Christianity spreading to Europe, and is to do with (as Flame pointed out) lust and vice rather than fertility. For Catholics, I suppose the Virgin Mary could be seen as something of a fertility symbol - sorry if I'm offending any of 'em on this ng by saying something obviously wrong, this is just conjecture. >Oh, by the way, >'Lucifer' was originally the Roman god of the Morning Star, you can read a >bit about him in OVID, and has nothing to do with 'the Devil.' Roman God of the Morning-Star? Naah. As I understand it, the story goes: when Satan was an angel, he was the brightest of the lot - the morning star. His name in Latin was Lucifer (light-carrier). >You said that not a lot of people would dare take issue with Judean beliefs, >true, but someone really should as they are just as bad. >The worst thing about Judaism is that it will go to great lengths to prevent >any criticism/research into its TRUE history/origin. They hold back >legitimate academic research in Israel. >For example, Secular archaeologists and historians will not be overly >welcome in Israel. >Only 'religious' archaeology/history is accepted. I really don't think that (admittedly questionable) behaviour is attributable to the Judeo-Christian tradition specifically. I think the dodgy religious activities of various (often Middle-eastern) countries aren't so much to do with the theoretical aspects of the specific religion involved - I think it's just what you get when one religion is allowed to dominate the entire country. As I understand it, Tibetan Buddhists were quite a terror to their citizens, and I can't help but feel that Wiccans running the country would be... er... interesting. >Where? I dont see any flames. Only an interesting debate. Maybe we're just not trying hard enough. ;) James ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:57:12 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 97 Message-ID: <3c00c035.385959@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-04-p50.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1006682113 26542 155.239.198.50 (25 Nov 2001 09:55:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2001 09:55:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59881 On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 01:54:51 -0000, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >WOD is my word for the word 'word', so says the wod on the street. > > >Sorry, James but you were saying: > >>The word "Wicca" is an Old English term which had pretty much the same >>negative connotations as "Witch" does today. Wicca as a religion is >>not in any way similar to the Celtic "nature-oriented" religion; its >>inspirations are more Buddhist than anything, although its followers >>tend to prefer Celtic-style doodlings in their schoolbooks. >>What I've never understood is: if Wiccans are so upset by the negative >>connotations of the word "Witch", why did they choose that word to >>describe themselves? > >I would disagree that it had negative connotations originally. As I said, >this was the case once Christian propaganda started to filter into peoples >minds. Pagan Anglo-Saxon 'witches' were not 'evil' as such. The original Anglo-Saxon form did have negative connotations, as did that of cognate words in most premodern societies. The following notes, from various authors, on the meaning of the term, may help to clarify: Wicca. Source: Hutton 1991:335. "By assuming that witchcraft and paganism were formerly the same phenomenon, they (Wiccans) are mixing two utterly different archaic concepts and placing themselves in a certain amount of difficulty. The advantage of the label 'witch' is that it has all the exciting connotations of a figure who flouts the conventions of normal society and is possessed of powers unavailable to it, at once feared and persecuted. It is a marvellous rallying-point for a counter-culture, and also one of the few images of independent female power in early modern European civilization. The disadvantage is that by identifying themselves with a very old stereotype of menace, derived from the pre-Christian world itself, modern pagans have drawn upon themselves a great deal of unnecessary suspicion, vituperation and victimization which they are perpetually struggling to assuage." Witch - definition. Source: Russell 1980:12. "What really is a witch? One answer lies in the roots and development of words. 'Witch' derives from the Old English wicca (pronounced 'witcha' and meaning male witch) and wicce ('female witch', pronounced 'witcheh') and from the word wiccian, meaning 'to cast a spell'. Contrary to common belief among modern witches, it is not Celtic in derivation, and it has nothing to do with the Old English witan, 'to know', or any other word relating to wisdom. The explanation that witchcraft means 'craft of the wise' is false... 'Wizard', unlike 'witch', really does derive from Middle English wis, 'wise'. The word first appears about 1440, meaning a 'wise man or woman'; in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries it designated a high magician, and only after 1825 was it used as the equivalent of 'witch'." Witchcraft & Heresy. Source: Williams 1959:86ff. Williams notes a gradual identification of sorcery and heresy in the West in the Middle Ages. From the 13th century there was a closer definition of both. The Templars were disbanded after accustions of apostasy and idolatrous worship. Some members reported that there was the head of the first Grand Master (cf. Lewis, "That hideous strength"). But the destruction of the Order was not afterwards regarded as one of the Church's victories against witchcraft. Witchcraft - meaning of the word. Source: Parrinder 1958:18. "The confusion between witchcraft and sorcery runs right though the early references. The Anglo-Saxon wicce-craeft can be interpreted as either witchcraft or sorcery, and the Latin veneficium could be translated sorcery or poisoning. For many centuries there was no clear distinction and even later on when some sort of definition had been arrived at the witch was liable to be accused of offences which were properly magical." Parrinder here follows anthropologists like Evans-Pritchard in distinguishing between witchcraft and sorcery. A witch does not cause evil consciously or deliberately, while a sorcerer uses ritual magic to bring about evil. As Hutton points out (in his "Pagan religions of the ancient British Isles", quoted above), the word, and the concept of witchcraft which it denotes, is a very ancient stereotype of menace, much older than Christianity. For Christians responses to witchcraft and sorcery, see the following web page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/witch1.htm -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: "Noora " Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG Lines: 26 Message-ID: <405fd95474900bc3c6a558219075ed2c.44320@mygate.mailgate.org> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cache-hki-2.inet.fi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.mailgate.org 1006659618 13359 194.251.240.106 (Sun Nov 25 11:42:56 2001) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mailgate.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Injector-Info: news.mailgate.org; posting-host=cache-hki-2.inet.fi; posting-account=44320; posting-date=1006659618 User-Agent: Mailgate Web Server X-URL: http://www.Mailgate.ORG Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!web2news!cache-hki-2.inet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59884 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com... > > 'Lust and vice' is a rather Christian biased view. 'Fertility' is more correct. > > The Church has never had a problem with fertility. Yeah , only with sexuality. > > For example, Secular archaeologists and historians will not be overly > > welcome in Israel. > > Only 'religious' archaeology/history is accepted. > You think the Jewish state should welcome a bunch of latter-day > Baal worshippers claiming to be "secular"? I don't think so. Some clarification on terms, please. Who are you referring to with 'latter-day Baal worshippers'? - Noora -- Posted from cache-hki-2.inet.fi [194.251.240.106] via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:36:46 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-170-6.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59986 >Things still haven't changed. For example, The Archbishop of Canterbury >refused to allow the use of the cathedral because he was concerned about the >'pagan aspects of the work involved' I was actually talking about Harry Potter here, somehow I missed it out! Thats what happens when you reply to as post at 3:30AM Douglas ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:08:42 -0500 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: nospam@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZF0fkGXIKPi45qkddVksXYHydsh76oLLPaScojsxnbmHd3ZVvnZUGT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2001 13:08:49 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59870 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > > >Things still haven't changed. For example, The Archbishop of Canterbury > >refused to allow the use of the cathedral because he was concerned about > the > >'pagan aspects of the work involved' > > I was actually talking about Harry Potter here, somehow I missed it out! > Thats what happens when you reply to as post at 3:30AM I was gonna ask you about that... But how is this equating paganism with devil worship? The AoC just doesn't want to promote a competing religion, as I see it. He isn't necessarily passing judgment on that religion. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:20:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1006694423 12.79.23.107 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:20:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:20:23 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59925 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com... > Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is > not pagan. Well... as we have discussed before, the DATE was originally set by the date of Passover, given that it is a celebration of Christ's death and rebirth - which happened at Passover time. This is also why 'Easter' is called 'Pascha' (Hebrew for 'pass over') in some countries that celebrate 'Passover' separately - just as we do in the US... because the date of Easter has since shifted to a traditionally pagan astronomically determined date (first full moon after the Vernal Equinox) and I'm afraid the eggs and rabbits have absolutely nothing to do with either Judaeism or Christianity. In order for 'Easter' to be celebrated as a Christian holiday you'd have to dump the eggs and bunnies, change the name, and move it back to the last day of Passover (the date of Christ's resurrection). So while the celebration of the resurrection of Christ was originally part of the last day of the 'Pascha' holiday as practiced by early Christians it no longer uses the same name, date or trappings... having been reassigned to co-opt pagan festivities. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:25:08 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 119 Message-ID: <9tqrbo$ov4$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-187-156.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59995 "James" wrote in message news:hfv00uk92njsf7qpu37vb4g5h034se1805@4ax.com... > >Nope, but the cloven hoof IS a throwback to Cernunos, one name among many > >for a primordial deity connected with trees/hunting/ yes AND fertility! Yes > >this figure was common across Europe, But The worship of this horned god IS > >certainly the origin behind the Christian corruption. 'Lust and vice' is a > >rather Christian biased view. 'Fertility' is more correct. > > N-n-n-nooo... really, the reason Satan is portrayed as goat-like (or > with some goat-like qualities) predates Christianity spreading to > Europe, and is to do with (as Flame pointed out) lust and vice rather > than fertility. For Catholics, I suppose the Virgin Mary could be seen > as something of a fertility symbol - sorry if I'm offending any of 'em > on this ng by saying something obviously wrong, this is just > conjecture. Why do you keep banging on about your 'goaty' Satan predating Christianity like it somehow undermines my argument. That was my point. The horned god image was an archetypal image worshiped by many Celtic/indo-European cultures BEFORE Christianity. This image however, is the forerunner to the Christians Satan, for reason already talked about. Oh yes , you are fairly close with the Virgin Mary aspect. The Virgin Mary is again a christianised version of the Archetypal indo-european earth mother/goddess, another non-christian aspect that Christians (well catholics) have taken onboard. > >Oh, by the way, > >'Lucifer' was originally the Roman god of the Morning Star, you can read a > >bit about him in OVID, and has nothing to do with 'the Devil.' > > Roman God of the Morning-Star? Naah. As I understand it, the story > goes: when Satan was an angel, he was the brightest of the lot - the > morning star. His name in Latin was Lucifer (light-carrier). I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. ask any classics teacher, Lucifer is a minor Roman deity -the morning star (hence the name 'light carrier') PRE-DATING Christianity. Pick up a copy of Ovid's Metamorphoses or Virgil or some other classical writer, you'll find Lucifer there in places, he's not really very important, but he sure as hell (pun intended) isn't the Lord of Darkness! What you are talking about relates to later Christian mythology, which stole his name for their 'fallen angel' > >You said that not a lot of people would dare take issue with Judean beliefs, > >true, but someone really should as they are just as bad. > >The worst thing about Judaism is that it will go to great lengths to prevent > >any criticism/research into its TRUE history/origin. They hold back > >legitimate academic research in Israel. > >For example, Secular archaeologists and historians will not be overly > >welcome in Israel. > >Only 'religious' archaeology/history is accepted. > > I really don't think that (admittedly questionable) behaviour is > attributable to the Judeo-Christian tradition specifically. I think > the dodgy religious activities of various (often Middle-eastern) > countries aren't so much to do with the theoretical aspects of the > specific religion involved - I think it's just what you get when one > religion is allowed to dominate the entire country. As I understand > it, Tibetan Buddhists were quite a terror to their citizens, and I > can't help but feel that Wiccans running the country would be... er... > interesting. Agreed, It's not specific to Israel only, but they do have a bad case of it. No, Wiccans running the country isn't a good idea either. What about Odinists? Yes they exist! One point though on all this though. People often state that the fact that much of Modern Wicca or any other new religion, odinists, Druidism etc are bollocks simply because they have been largely constructed over the past 150 years or so, taking as I said, the (admitably small) amount of info known about the original forms of these religions building on them to create a new one, the late 19th Century being the 'renaissance ' for this kind of thing. But I don't see this as being a valid criticism, for all religions started somewhere via an individual or group of people, then developing and changing over time. Is a religion that started 150 years ago any less valid than one started 2000 years ago? I would say not. Many religions change vastly over time as well, so longevitiy, I think, is no indicator of a superior form of religion. Christianity as we understand it today has little resemblance to its original form, which can only be guessed at, the core text of it being written down over 200 years after the events described. I think any belief system is equally valid to any other. Its like the debate about religions and cults. Established religions look down on cults but should they? When does a cult become a religion? When it has a ten thousand devotees? ten million? Really there is no distinction, they are both equally valid. Cults are simply proto-religions. Some do well and become successful, others don't. Christianity was a particularly successful one. Krishna is a good modern example of one such group that is more or less becoming accepted as a religion today. > >Where? I don't see any flames. Only an interesting debate. > > Maybe we're just not trying hard enough. ;) > > James Should we be? Regards, Douglas ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:19:05 -0500 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZv+vP0M2uq7ELI0x1+WjrlqZn1DE8/2f+RTMq/AabAcePdc2keDX1L X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2001 15:22:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59868 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > the date of Easter has since shifted to a > traditionally pagan astronomically determined date (first full moon > after the Vernal Equinox) Correction: the date of Passover is the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox; the date of Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. In neither case is the astronomical date "pagan", since it originates in the Jewish luni-solar calendar. Of course, both Jews and Christians use tables rather than actual astronomical observations to set the actual dates. > In order for 'Easter' to be celebrated as a Christian holiday you'd > have to dump the eggs and bunnies, The eggs and bunnies are just popular add-ons to the Christian feast, not a substitute for the Christian feast itself. > change the name, The Church is worldwide; you can't argue that a celebration is or is not Christian based on its name in one language. > and move it back > to the last day of Passover (the date of Christ's resurrection). You can think of the Resurrection as having happened on the last day of Passover, or on the first Sunday after the beginning of Passover. Both are accurate descriptions of when it actually happened. The Church chose the latter, as it happens; but either one would have done, and neither choice is more inherently "pagan" than the other. > So while the celebration of the resurrection of Christ was originally > part of the last day of the 'Pascha' holiday as practiced by early > Christians it no longer uses the same name, date or trappings... > having been reassigned to co-opt pagan festivities. It was not "reassigned." The date was set by the early Christians in the Near East (Nicaea, 325 AD) quite independently of what the Northern Europeans were doing with eggs and bunnies. The name is correct in almost every language except English; and the egg-and-bunny trappings are also a local Northern addition. You can conclude from the English name and trappings that the English transferred some local rites of spring to the celebration of Easter, with or without the approval of the local Church. But to describe Easter itself as "reassigned" is to assert some worldwide decision by the universal Church that just didn't happen. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:42:36 -0500 Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3C011164.D4ECF9DF@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqrbo$ov4$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ2taGlc+bSIgyOMzHDxAuMKq0B7sTQKFcOibinGeazygaQ9HoJmp3A X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2001 15:43:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!usenetserver.com!208.184.7.66!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59874 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > People often state that the fact that much of Modern Wicca or any other new > religion, odinists, Druidism etc are bollocks simply because they have been > largely constructed over the past 150 years or so, taking as I said, the > (admitably small) amount of info known about the original forms of these > religions building on them to create a new one, the late 19th Century being > the 'renaissance ' for this kind of thing. > But I don't see this as being a valid criticism, for all religions started > somewhere via an individual or group of people, then developing and changing > over time. > Is a religion that started 150 years ago any less valid than one started > 2000 years ago? > I would say not. No one here has said that modern Wicca is BS because it's only 150 years old. The 150-year thing is only brought up in response to modern Wiccans that talk like they're devotees of some ancient religion. For example, you said, > The word 'Witch' actually comes from the word 'Wicca' which as some of you > celtic types know is an offshoot of the many branches/developments of > Celtic/pagan nature-orientated religion. Perhaps you should use the word "reconstruction" rather than "offshoot", since the latter term implies an historical continuity which is not there in this case. -- -- FotW "Why so glum, Wizard?" --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: 25 Nov 2001 08:26:37 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0111250826.3e8bd890@posting.google.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.54.55.59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1006705597 6523 127.0.0.1 (25 Nov 2001 16:26:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2001 16:26:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59979 Flame of the West wrote in message news:<3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com>... > Douglas Eckhart wrote: > > > Yeah, but come on, every festival is nicked off an older Celtic/pagan one, > > Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is > not pagan. > But I do believe the name Easter itself comes from Anglo-Saxon paganism. It's probabyl more accurate to say that Christian holidays ripped off a lot of pagan holidays in terms by absorbing various traditions. Easter, Christmas, and Halloween, while being Christian in origin, have in practice borrowed much from pagan holidays. > You think the Jewish state should welcome a bunch of latter-day > Baal worshippers claiming to be "secular"? I don't think so. Probably wouldn't be likely. There are some in Israel who don't even want to acknowledge non-Orthodox Jews. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:57:49 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <2uj00u0thog7m537ogse2hk399a4d2tudp@4ax.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tov44$ulg$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59997 On 24 Nov 2001 14:15:00 -0600, bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) wrote: >"Blob" writes: > >>But what does the word "WOD" mean? > >I think it's Old English for "wood". Nope. It's OE for 'mad, insane'. 'wood' is 'wudu'. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Evolution is a harsh mistress. ###### From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: 24 Nov 2001 20:33:52 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9tplag$3mb$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tov44$ulg$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> <2uj00u0thog7m537ogse2hk399a4d2tudp@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1006655637 18607 129.130.10.50 (25 Nov 2001 02:33:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:33:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59933 the softrat writes: >On 24 Nov 2001 14:15:00 -0600, bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. >Hsu) wrote: >>"Blob" writes: >> >>>But what does the word "WOD" mean? >> >>I think it's Old English for "wood". >Nope. It's OE for 'mad, insane'. 'wood' is 'wudu'. welp, I was kidding, but assuming you're knot, that's quite a serendipitous title! -- Banazir (i don't know about you but i sure would like to see the Wod Witch Project) ###### From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: 24 Nov 2001 23:46:59 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9tq0kj$55f$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1006667222 25939 129.130.10.50 (25 Nov 2001 05:47:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 05:47:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59924 James writes: [...] >For Catholics, I suppose the Virgin Mary could be seen >as something of a fertility symbol - sorry if I'm offending any of 'em >on this ng by saying something obviously wrong, this is just >conjecture. I can't see why not; the Ave Maria, after all, reads: Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. ("Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.") http://www.unidial.com/~martinus/thesaurus/Basics/AveMaria.html [...] >>Where? I dont see any flames. Only an interesting debate. >Maybe we're just not trying hard enough. ;) Well, TRY HARDER, trask it! ;-) -- Banazir (in the First Age, they wouldn't have had such problems generating flames) ###### From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: 25 Nov 2001 15:34:21 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 87 Message-ID: <9tro4t$dmj$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqrbo$ov4$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1006724064 24295 129.130.10.50 (25 Nov 2001 21:34:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:34:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newspump.sol.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60059 "Douglas Eckhart" writes: >>> Oh, by the way, >>> 'Lucifer' was originally the Roman god of the Morning Star, you can read >>> a bit about him in OVID, and has nothing to do with 'the Devil.' >> >> Roman God of the Morning-Star? Naah. As I understand it, the story >> goes: when Satan was an angel, he was the brightest of the lot - the >> morning star. His name in Latin was Lucifer (light-carrier). >I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. ask any classics teacher, Lucifer is >a minor Roman deity -the morning star (hence the name 'light carrier') >PRE-DATING Christianity. Pick up a copy of Ovid's Metamorphoses or Virgil or >some other classical writer, you'll find Lucifer there in places, he's not >really very important, but he sure as hell (pun intended) isn't the Lord of >Darkness! >What you are talking about relates to later Christian mythology, which stole >his name for their 'fallen angel' Douglas is right about this one, though IIRC the mythos is more tightly intertwined than is evident from the above summary: http://www.geocities.com/tmartiac/thalassa/phaethon.htm A theosophical society asserts (and I have not verified this) that Isaiah 14 (KJV and other translations) is the only mention of "Lucifer" in the Christian bible. If so, the association is cross-testament (and since Isaiah evidently pre-dates the Jewish exile) draws on a pre-Christian metaphor. This particular article asserts that the reference in Isaiah is directed at the king of Babylon: http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel2.htm Here are some citations from Masonic and Wiccan advocates: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/LuciferandSatan.html http://www.bcholmes.org/wicca/ And here is a Pentecostal revivalist synopsis: http://members.iinet.net.au/~fmi/angels.htm These last three contradict each other a bit, as one might expect, but none contradict the hypothesis that the name Lucifer was associated with the Christian Satan much later. Furthermore, all of these sources are consistent with the hypothesis that this was on the basis of some translation of the Book of Isaiah (up to and including KJV, probably starting with the Vulgate as "lux" and "ferre" are Latin words). On the subject of the differences between Wicca and Satanism, I find this site to be well-researched and impartial: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_sata.htm You can judge how accurate and informative each source is for yourself. >Agreed, It's not specific to Israel only, but they do have a bad case of it. >No, Wiccans running the country isn't a good idea either. What about >Odinists? >Yes they exist! Boy, I'm sure Raven would be ecstatic! Just think, an all-Crebain cabinet... :-) > [recency != invalidity] Some who are pointing out the recency of Wicca as an established religion may be using this fact as a critique as well, but IMHO it's important just to acknowledge the facts. There is enough distortion as it is. The Softrat rightly points out that the idea that Wicca descends from the ancient Pagan religions of Northern Europe is grossly inaccurate: http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_pott.htm >> >Where? I don't see any flames. Only an interesting debate. >> >> Maybe we're just not trying hard enough. ;) >> >> James >Should we be? Yes! #-) -- Banazir ###### Reply-To: "Kore Melanaegis" From: "Kore Melanaegis" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.154.130.133 Message-ID: <3c01d0a8@news.actrix.gen.nz> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:53:05 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.16.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1006747179 203.96.16.33 (Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:59:39 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:59:39 NZDT Organization: TelstraSaturn Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news02.tsnz.net!news.actrix.gen.nz!202.154.130.133 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60101 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:re6M7.197019$3d2.8221250@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Flame of the West" wrote in message > news:3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com... > > > Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is > > not pagan. > >and I'm afraid the eggs and rabbits have absolutely nothing to do with either Judaeism or Christianity. Eggs and Rabbits are symbols of rebirth (eg. Christ's resurrection/rebirth) they are not Christian in origin but there's nothing wrong with incorporating the good ideas of other religions into your own, The Ancient Greeks did it all the time. ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 03:57:15 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3c01ba9b.64498098@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-01-p206.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1006746919 15498 155.239.194.206 (26 Nov 2001 03:55:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2001 03:55:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60109 On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:20:23 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"Flame of the West" wrote in message >news:3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com... > >> Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is >> not pagan. > >Well... as we have discussed before, the DATE was originally set >by the date of Passover, given that it is a celebration of Christ's >death and rebirth - which happened at Passover time. This is also >why 'Easter' is called 'Pascha' (Hebrew for 'pass over') in some >countries that celebrate 'Passover' separately - just as we do in >the US... because the date of Easter has since shifted to a >traditionally pagan astronomically determined date (first full moon >after the Vernal Equinox) and I'm afraid the eggs and rabbits have >absolutely nothing to do with either Judaeism or Christianity. > >In order for 'Easter' to be celebrated as a Christian holiday you'd >have to dump the eggs and bunnies, change the name, and move it back >to the last day of Passover (the date of Christ's resurrection). >So while the celebration of the resurrection of Christ was originally >part of the last day of the 'Pascha' holiday as practiced by early >Christians it no longer uses the same name, date or trappings... >having been reassigned to co-opt pagan festivities. Why change the name? Pascha is Pascha. "Easter" is only used by English-speaking people and those who became Christians because of the activities of English missionaries. And even then, when they translated the term into other languages, they usually used "{ascha" or a variant. I don't know about bunnies, but the eggs are Christian enough. Uf you haven't eaten them all during Lent, it's quite a big deal. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 06:15:45 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3c01dd41.8432873@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-05-p99.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1006755229 76 155.239.220.99 (26 Nov 2001 06:13:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2001 06:13:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60098 On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:20:23 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"Flame of the West" wrote in message >news:3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com... > >> Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is >> not pagan. > >Well... as we have discussed before, the DATE was originally set >by the date of Passover, given that it is a celebration of Christ's >death and rebirth - which happened at Passover time. This is also >why 'Easter' is called 'Pascha' (Hebrew for 'pass over') in some >countries that celebrate 'Passover' separately - just as we do in >the US... because the date of Easter has since shifted to a >traditionally pagan astronomically determined date (first full moon >after the Vernal Equinox) and I'm afraid the eggs and rabbits have >absolutely nothing to do with either Judaeism or Christianity. > >In order for 'Easter' to be celebrated as a Christian holiday you'd >have to dump the eggs and bunnies, change the name, and move it back >to the last day of Passover (the date of Christ's resurrection). >So while the celebration of the resurrection of Christ was originally >part of the last day of the 'Pascha' holiday as practiced by early >Christians it no longer uses the same name, date or trappings... >having been reassigned to co-opt pagan festivities. Why change the name? Pascha is Pascha. "Easter" is only used by English-speaking people and those who became Christians because of the activities of English missionaries. And even then, when they translated the term into other languages, they usually used "Pascha" or a variant. I don't know about bunnies, but the eggs are Christian enough. Uf you haven't eaten them all during Lent, it's quite a big deal. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 06:15:53 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 72 Message-ID: <3c01d7eb.7065750@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3ac4908.0111250826.3e8bd890@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-05-p99.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1006755237 76 155.239.220.99 (26 Nov 2001 06:13:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2001 06:13:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60100 On 25 Nov 2001 08:26:37 -0800, the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) wrote: >Flame of the West wrote in message news:<3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com>... >> Douglas Eckhart wrote: >> >> > Yeah, but come on, every festival is nicked off an older Celtic/pagan one, >> >> Not Easter. It was "nicked off" the Jewish Passover, which is >> not pagan. >> >But I do believe the name Easter itself comes from Anglo-Saxon >paganism. It's probabyl more accurate to say that Christian holidays >ripped off a lot of pagan holidays in terms by absorbing various >traditions. Easter, Christmas, and Halloween, while being Christian >in origin, have in practice borrowed much from pagan holidays. The word "Easter" derives from the Anglo-Saxon "Eostremonath", which was their name from April, the month in which Pascha was usually celebrated. "Eaostremonath" was probably named for a goddess Eostre, whose festical had been celebrated in that month. This information comes from the Venerable Bede, who wrote about such things as the date of celebrating Pascha had been the matter of some controversy in England shortly before his time. But practically nothing more is known about Eostre, or the form of her celebrations. Oh yes, you can do a Google search and you will find all kinds of speculations confidently asserted as established fact, but then anything can write anything they want to on a web page. But for the very existence of Eostre Bede is the nearest thing we have to a primary source, and he wrote a couple of generations later. There are plenty of links between Christian and pagan celebrations of one wants to look for them, but "Easter" is not a good example, because the name is a coincidental one in one language only. Its celebration did not originate with the Anglo-Saxons, but was brought to them by Celtic and Roman missionaries after they had immigrated to Britain and carved out England there. For more accurate and reliable information, see: Hutton, Ronald. 1991. The pagan religions of the ancient British Isles. Oxford: Blackwell. Dewey: 291.093 61 ISBN: 0-631-17288-2 Deals with archaeological and other evidence for the ancient religions of the British isles, from pre-historic times to the Celts, Romano-British and Anglo-Saxons. Deals with some of the claims of wicca and other neo-pagan religions, and the commonly-heard allegations that Christianity borrowed extensively from paganism. Hutton, Ronald. 1996. The stations of the sun: a history of the ritual year in Britain. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Dewey: 294.260941 ISBN: 0-19-820570-8 An examination of the history of seasonal festivals in Britain, starting with Christmas and New Year, and following the months of the year. Also deals with the customs associated with various festivals in different areas, including Morris men, football, etc. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: 26 Nov 2001 04:48:58 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 49 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1006778938 22388 127.0.0.1 (26 Nov 2001 12:48:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:48:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60197 Flame of the West wrote in message news:<3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com>... > Correction: the date of Passover is the first full moon > after the Vernal Equinox; the date of Easter is the > first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal > Equinox. More correct than my recollection, but still a bit off. Easter is the first Sunday of the first full moon after March 20th - not the Vernal Equinox precisely. There are also apparently a few minor variations on this in different countries. The two holidays are calculated differently and can fall on different dates, but the divergence seems to be a matter of 'simplification' more than anything else. > The Church is worldwide; you can't argue that a celebration > is or is not Christian based on its name in one language. Well, the celebration is unquestionably 'Christian' - it would be ridiculous to argue that it is not given that it is celebrated by Christians. The real issue is whether the forms and trappings are derived from Christianity or some other source. Given that the eggs and bunnies (though not the name) are used in most countries I'd say it IS a worldwide issue. Variations on the name 'Easter' are used in most countries which received the holiday from English or German sources, but not most others. > You can conclude from the English name and trappings that > the English transferred some local rites of spring to the > celebration of Easter, with or without the approval of the > local Church. But to describe Easter itself as "reassigned" > is to assert some worldwide decision by the universal Church > that just didn't happen. Fair enough. We seem to be agreed that there are some parts of the celebration which were derived from other sources, but not on the implications of this. I'd generally assume it more likely that the church adopted the forms of other celebrations than for the locals to have inserted them, but in truth it was likely something of both. A great site for info about this (and comparative religions in general) is; http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm Just be warned that while the site presents material impartially it does so for ALL sides of the topic - and some dogmatic Wiccans won't be any more pleased to hear that many historians consider their faith a recent creation with little connection to ancient practices than Christians would be to learn about Attis. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:49:57 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 68 Message-ID: <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-14-89.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!teaser.fr!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60189 My impression is that most devout Christians DO regard paganism as synonymous or at least 'down the road' to devil worship. With regards to the pagan connotations of Halloween, I'm not sure about USA but certainly in the UK, ministers are not that happy about Halloween and think it shouldn't really be acknowledged, although they admit that it has passed into popular culture to such an extent that it would be impossible to do anything about it now. Halloween is a particular festival which I've always found interesting for this reason. Although other pre-Christian festivals, as discussed earlier were successfully and happily adapted into Christian ones like Christmas and Easter, The Church has never been entirely enthusiastic about Samhein, as it was originally known. Although they did try to incorporate it, the festival becoming known as 'All Hallows Eve' or Halloween, the Church has never really liked it and still tries to discourage it, at least in the UK. As far as I'm aware, the church in USA is not overly enthusiastic about it either? There must have been elements of the original festival which Christians just never felt comfortable with adapting. I'm assuming its the theme of the dead returning to the world for a night, and the free reign of evil spirits for this time. Devout Christians I imagine, just don't think we should be celebrating such things. I think its quite a good Idea though, its nice to think of one day in the year when deceased relatives can come back to say hello, ok we could drop the part about all the evil spirits! Samhein was, however quite a melancholy festival, according to ancient sources; Caesar commented to some extent on the religious practices of the Celts. Samhein was the beginning of the Celtic new year, there was the knowledge that the long, dark, bleak winter lay ahead of them and Samhein was symbolic of this, so it wasn't a particularly cheerful festival, like it is now if I may say! Regards, Douglas "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com... > > Douglas Eckhart wrote: > > > > >Things still haven't changed. For example, The Archbishop of Canterbury > > >refused to allow the use of the cathedral because he was concerned about > > the > > >'pagan aspects of the work involved' > > > > I was actually talking about Harry Potter here, somehow I missed it out! > > That's what happens when you reply to as post at 3:30AM > > I was gonna ask you about that... > > But how is this equating paganism with devil worship? The AoC just > doesn't want to promote a competing religion, as I see it. He isn't > necessarily passing judgment on that religion. > > -- > > -- FotW > > "Why so glum, Wizard?" > > --- Aragorn to Gandalf (Rankin-Bass RotK) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:06:37 -0500 Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3C02D90A.843C8C@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVay0dGihZNiSmlz23CSrXHyyVh82nojFDHks5sCEV5XTKrNWi+KSZle X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 03:14:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60637 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Correction: the date of Passover is the first full moon > > after the Vernal Equinox; the date of Easter is the > > first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal > > Equinox. > > More correct than my recollection, but still a bit off. Easter is the > first Sunday of the first full moon after March 20th - not the Vernal > Equinox precisely. There are also apparently a few minor variations > on this in different countries. The two holidays are calculated > differently and can fall on different dates, but the divergence seems > to be a matter of 'simplification' more than anything else. The rules for computing Easter were an imperfect but pretty good attempt to implement the ruling at the Council of Nicea that Easter should fall on the Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox (which was March 21 at the time). A calculated rule was considered better than direct astronomical observation for two reasons: (1) the Church was already in several time zones, and a uniform date of Easter was desired; (2) things like observing Lent required advance knowledge of when Easter would fall. The same of Passover: the rules of calculation were the rabbis' attempt to achieve uniformity and advance knowledge. There are different dates of Easter because there are different rules corresponding to the Julian and Gregorian calendars, and different Churches hold to the different rules. The Gregorian rules actually introduce an intentional error: it is designed to avoid having Good Friday and Passover falling at the same time, since in the 16th Century that led to violence against Jews. The Greek Church actually split over the date of Easter, with the so-called Old Calendarists holding to the Julian date. -- -- FotW "If you want him, come and claim him!" --- Arwen the Warrior Princess ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:08:58 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C02D997.7344721A@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYggNxpH1FQ0Kes3HBJaRe2EYwWS9krtRaMoCUC1pkSc1veEgs0kZ0B X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 03:14:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60652 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > in the > UK, ministers are not that happy about Halloween and think it shouldn't > really be acknowledged, although they admit that it has passed into popular > culture to such an extent that it would be impossible to do anything about > it now. I was in England at Halloween several years ago, and was told by someone that Halloween has increased in popularity there, taking the place of Guy Fawkes Day in the popular culture. As a Catholic, I can certainly live with that. -- -- FotW "If you want him, come and claim him!" --- Arwen the Warrior Princess ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:10:46 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C02DA03.FDBDF663@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZJxNlwN2vBBZkbH9tIajcEGo2z7QyaCL0azceitPW8RM2wrHkxTsMs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 03:14:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60281 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > My impression is that most devout Christians DO regard paganism as > synonymous or at least 'down the road' to devil worship. It is an historical fact that some pagan societies the Church encountered were thinly disguised devil or demon worship. Many countries were evagelized in the early centuries by breaking the power of the local demons. -- -- FotW "If you want him, come and claim him!" --- Arwen the Warrior Princess ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:14:56 -0500 Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3C02DAFC.1F7C0867@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ5bTEeRPXVN9zVLsB8+T1XrSg9Ny07G0rCRQxEVvodG3GCk/VB2N99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 03:14:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60280 Douglas Eckhart wrote: > Halloween is a particular festival which I've always found interesting for > this reason. Although other pre-Christian festivals, as discussed earlier > were successfully and happily adapted into Christian ones like Christmas and > Easter, The Church has never been entirely enthusiastic about Samhein, as it > was originally known. Although they did try to incorporate it, the festival > becoming known as 'All Hallows Eve' or Halloween, the Church has never > really > liked it and still tries to discourage it, at least in the UK. As far as I'm > aware, the church in USA is not overly enthusiastic about it either? > > There must have been elements of the original festival which Christians just > never felt comfortable with adapting. I really think you misunderstand the situation. The Church never "adapted" Halloween or absorbed it. It instituted the feast of All Saints to give the newly converted something to do at the Celtic New Year. Just because Halloween survived in Christian societies doesn't mean that the Church tried to "incorporate" it. Many pagan practices survived for centuries in popular practice; that doesn't mean the Church ever adopted them. Instead they tried to supplant them with Christian festivals held at about the same time. This was more successful with some festivals than with others. -- -- FotW "If you want him, come and claim him!" --- Arwen the Warrior Princess ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:30:14 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c27.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60531 In article <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >My impression is that most devout Christians DO regard paganism as >synonymous or at least 'down the road' to devil worship. With regards to the if christianity is completely correct youre either a christian and saved or youre not a christian and damned if christianity is completely correct it doesnt matter if you worship ganesh or the mother goddess or satan that would all be false religions ###### From: "David Flood" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 04:16:36 -0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9tv3th$alu$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C02D90A.843C8C@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-233.nuada.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1006834417 10942 62.137.249.233 (27 Nov 2001 04:13:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 04:13:37 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60447 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C02D90A.843C8C@erols.com... > There are different dates of Easter because there are > different rules corresponding to the Julian and Gregorian > calendars, and different Churches hold to the different rules. > The Gregorian rules actually introduce an intentional error: > it is designed to avoid having Good Friday and Passover > falling at the same time, since in the 16th Century that led > to violence against Jews. The Greek Church actually split > over the date of Easter, with the so-called Old Calendarists > holding to the Julian date. This reminds me of the bitter schism among the Quakers in the seventeenth century over, errr, the *doffing of hats* :) Daithí ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:25:42 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.0f.db Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 27 Nov 2001 04:21:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60321 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Fair enough. We seem to be agreed that there are some parts of the > celebration which were derived from other sources, but not on the > implications of this. I'd generally assume it more likely that the > church adopted the forms of other celebrations than for the locals to > have inserted them, but in truth it was likely something of both. What's more important to me than exactly how the eggses/bunnies etc. got into the easter tradition is whether they are now a part of the Christian religious celebrations that actually take place at easter time. I can't speak for all Christians, but I know that I can't think of any *religious* easter celebrations that featured eggs or bunnies in any way other than perhaps a passing reference (often negative) to them. All the easter celebrations I've been to have been about the death and resurrection of Christ. So at least from my personal experience I'd say that the pagan vestiges that have become associated with easter haven't changed its actual meaning, nor have they influenced the forms of religious celebration (as opposed to an easter egg hunt with the kids sunday afternoon, which isn't a religious celebration at all) in any large way. Johnathan George -- Give the gift of life Sign your organ donor card Tell your family you want to be an organ donor ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:44:25 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60626 On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:25:42 -0500, Johnathan George wrote: >What's more important to me than exactly how the eggses/bunnies etc. got >into the easter tradition is whether they are now a part of the >Christian religious celebrations that actually take place at easter >time. Not in the American Episcopal Church now or ever that I know of. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Keep this up and we'll have a vicious triangle. ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:46:12 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9tvju6$pih$1@news.wanadoo.es> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-37-108-2.dialup.uni2.es X-Trace: news.wanadoo.es 1006850823 26193 62.37.108.2 (27 Nov 2001 08:47:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@wanadoo.es NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:47:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!teaser.fr!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.comtenidos.com!newsfeeder.wanadoo.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60336 "Johnathan George" wrote in message news:3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > > Fair enough. We seem to be agreed that there are some parts of the > > celebration which were derived from other sources, but not on the > > implications of this. I'd generally assume it more likely that the > > church adopted the forms of other celebrations than for the locals to > > have inserted them, but in truth it was likely something of both. > > What's more important to me than exactly how the eggses/bunnies etc. got > into the easter tradition is whether they are now a part of the > Christian religious celebrations that actually take place at easter > time. I can't speak for all Christians, but I know that I can't think > of any *religious* easter celebrations that featured eggs or bunnies in > any way other than perhaps a passing reference (often negative) to > them. All the easter celebrations I've been to have been about the > death and resurrection of Christ. In this catholic area there is an egg celebration associated to Easter. It is not part of the religious rituals, just as Christmas feasting or gift-giving is not associated to Christmas mass, but they are part of the same tradition. No bunnys, though. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:48:03 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9tvk1l$pmb$1@news.wanadoo.es> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3C02DA03.FDBDF663@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-37-108-2.dialup.uni2.es X-Trace: news.wanadoo.es 1006850934 26315 62.37.108.2 (27 Nov 2001 08:48:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@wanadoo.es NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:48:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!excite.it!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.comtenidos.com!newsfeeder.wanadoo.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60335 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C02DA03.FDBDF663@erols.com... > > Douglas Eckhart wrote: > > > My impression is that most devout Christians DO regard paganism as > > synonymous or at least 'down the road' to devil worship. > > It is an historical fact that some pagan societies the Church > encountered were thinly disguised devil or demon worship. > Many countries were evagelized in the early centuries by > breaking the power of the local demons. It's just that what the church called local demos the natives called gods. How could they worship the devil if they didn't know it existed? R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:48:35 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 114 Message-ID: <3c035c33.20085654@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3C02DAFC.1F7C0867@erols.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-04-p200.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1006858003 12847 155.239.198.200 (27 Nov 2001 10:46:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:46:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60312 On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:14:56 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: > >Douglas Eckhart wrote: > >> Halloween is a particular festival which I've always found interesting for >> this reason. Although other pre-Christian festivals, as discussed earlier >> were successfully and happily adapted into Christian ones like Christmas and >> Easter, The Church has never been entirely enthusiastic about Samhein, as it >> was originally known. Although they did try to incorporate it, the festival >> becoming known as 'All Hallows Eve' or Halloween, the Church has never >> really >> liked it and still tries to discourage it, at least in the UK. As far as I'm >> aware, the church in USA is not overly enthusiastic about it either? >> >> There must have been elements of the original festival which Christians just >> never felt comfortable with adapting. > >I really think you misunderstand the situation. The Church never >"adapted" Halloween or absorbed it. It instituted the feast of >All Saints to give the newly converted something to do at the >Celtic New Year. Just because Halloween survived in Christian >societies doesn't mean that the Church tried to "incorporate" it. >Many pagan practices survived for centuries in popular practice; >that doesn't mean the Church ever adopted them. Instead they >tried to supplant them with Christian festivals held at about the >same time. This was more successful with some festivals than >with others. Both wrong. While Easter was indeed succesfully adapted from the Jewish Pascha, it was also radically expanded and reinterpreted. Though I wonder if the Jews also borrowed the egg from the Germans, as so many seem to think the Christians did. The Christian festival of All Saints was originally celebrated in May, and in the Orthodox Church it still is -- on the Sunday after Pentecost. It dates from the time that Christians were persecuted by pagans, and comemorated all those killed in the persecutions whose names were unknown. In Rome it was changed to 1 November, when the Roman Pope dedicated a church to All Saints on that day. I doubt that anyone there had ever heard of Samhain. Only later did it come to be celebrated in other parts of Western Christendom, and after a couple of centuries it was made obligatory. It then reached Ireland, and the Irish brought some of their customs to its celebration. Here's some more information about its later development. Hallowe'en unChristian?. Source: Hutton 1996:384. "the Christian feast of the dead is thoroughly embedded in the history of Hallowe'en and... its legacy is usually impossible to distinguish from that of paganism in the practices and associations of the night. It is of course maintained by what is still by far the largest of the world's churches, the Roman Catholic. To describe the feast as fundamentally unchristian is therefore either ill-informed or disingenuous. Such an attitude could be most sympathetically portrayed as a logical development of radical Protestant hostility to the holy days of All Saints and All Souls; having abolished the medieval rites associated with them and attempted to remove the feast altogether, evangelical Protestants are historically quite consistent in trying to eradicate any traditions surviving from them. If so many of those traditions appear now to be divorced from Christianity, this is precisely because of the success of earlier reformers in driving them out of the churches and away from clerics". Hutton also notes that the festival parodies or evokes two phenomena with which industrial society is profoundly uneasy: the supernatural and death. Modern observance of Hallowe'en in Britain. Source: Hutton 1996:384. Hutton notes that the modern celebration of Hallowe'en in most parts of Britain is based on the American model rather than the indigenous tradition. What has also been imported is Protestant opposition to it. The opposition has not taken the form of a chauvinist reaction against an alien feast, but has been organized by evangelical groups in Protestant denominations, using American rhetoric, on the grounds that it is unChristian, and glorified or glamorizes evil powers. Observance of Halloween in Britain and the USA. Source: Hutton 1996:383ff. Halloween celebrations are little mentioned in English folklore collections before 1900. "It was proportionately little observed in England's American colonies... What altered this situation, dramatically, was large-scale Itish immigration into the USA during the nineteenth century, bringing an intensive observation of the festival with it. In the first half of the twentieth, Hallowe'en developed steadily into a national festivity for Americans, guising becoming an ubiquitous tradition of fancy dress to represent ghosts, goblins and witches, pumpkins replacing Irish vegetables as cases for lanterns, and mischief-making and house-to-house calls combining in the custom of trick-or-treat. The same process occurred in Britain, partly as a result of a parallel massive influx of Irish under Victoria but mainly also because of increasing American cultural influence from that period onward". Observance of Halloween in England. Source: Hutton 1996:379ff. In England and the southern half of Scotland (by contrast to the "Celtic" areas of Wales, Northern Scotland and Ireland) "there is little trace of feasting and merry-making until the present century, while (in the provinces at least) the season was as characterized by fear as it was in the 'Celtic' areas". In Wales the ceremonies were for ancestral spirits, while in England they were designed to propitiate the forces of evil. "It is difficult to judge how far all of this activity in the Lowlands was indigenous, and how much it was increased by the time of recording (mostly twentieth-century) by Irish and Highland immigration, and later on by American influence. There is no doubt, by contrast, concerning the traditional nature of the equivalent in Wales". -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:48:36 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3c035f8d.20943606@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C02D90A.843C8C@erols.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-04-p200.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1006858003 12847 155.239.198.200 (27 Nov 2001 10:46:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:46:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60318 On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:06:37 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: >There are different dates of Easter because there are >different rules corresponding to the Julian and Gregorian >calendars, and different Churches hold to the different rules. >The Gregorian rules actually introduce an intentional error: >it is designed to avoid having Good Friday and Passover >falling at the same time, since in the 16th Century that led >to violence against Jews. The Greek Church actually split >over the date of Easter, with the so-called Old Calendarists >holding to the Julian date. Actually that's one thing most of the Orthodox are agreed on. Pascha must fall after the Jewish Passover (in the West it sometimes comes before), and old and new calendrists observe Easter on the same day. The date for Christians is different, however, and those on the old calendar observe it on 7 January. >-- > >-- FotW > >"If you want him, come and claim him!" > > --- Arwen the Warrior Princess > > -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:48:37 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3c03606a.21164723@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-04-p200.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1006858004 12847 155.239.198.200 (27 Nov 2001 10:46:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:46:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60311 On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:25:42 -0500, Johnathan George wrote: >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> Fair enough. We seem to be agreed that there are some parts of the >> celebration which were derived from other sources, but not on the >> implications of this. I'd generally assume it more likely that the >> church adopted the forms of other celebrations than for the locals to >> have inserted them, but in truth it was likely something of both. > >What's more important to me than exactly how the eggses/bunnies etc. got >into the easter tradition is whether they are now a part of the >Christian religious celebrations that actually take place at easter >time. I can't speak for all Christians, but I know that I can't think >of any *religious* easter celebrations that featured eggs or bunnies in >any way other than perhaps a passing reference (often negative) to >them. All the easter celebrations I've been to have been about the >death and resurrection of Christ. So at least from my personal >experience I'd say that the pagan vestiges that have become associated >with easter haven't changed its actual meaning, nor have they influenced >the forms of religious celebration (as opposed to an easter egg hunt >with the kids sunday afternoon, which isn't a religious celebration at >all) in any large way. The bunnies and eggs are entirely different things. Easter eggs and roast lamb are very big in the Orthodox Church, as are various kinds of meat and dairy products, signifying the end of the Lenten fast. . -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 04:12:54 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> <3c03606a.21164723@news.saix.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c18.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60528 >>the forms of religious celebration (as opposed to an easter egg hunt >>with the kids sunday afternoon, which isn't a religious celebration at >>all) in any large way. ahem chocolate eggs actually chocolate anything is a profoundly religious experience anyway easter is passover celebrating the release from bondage (egypt or sin your choice) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:50:19 -0500 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3C03E069.B0C8DC56@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY/eVeGJd0zcaik/LzlaHipYGDUWQHNaK3X+CXkdRpl9s6JU/lv+3kA X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60274 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Fair enough. We seem to be agreed that there are some parts of the > celebration which were derived from other sources, but not on the > implications of this. I'd generally assume it more likely that the > church adopted the forms of other celebrations than for the locals to > have inserted them, but in truth it was likely something of both. In the first few centuries, the Church was much more decentralized than it is now. If a local bishop observed the newly converted carrying on some vestigal pagan celebration, it is unlikely he would have written to Rome about it; he'd just insert a festival into the local liturgical calendar. The first great uniformization of the Western liturgy occurred under Charlemagne; it seems likely that this is when so many local customs from the Celtic and Germanic areas made it into the Roman calendar. > A great site for info about this (and comparative religions in > general) is; > > http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm All right, all right: since so many out there seem to recommend this "religioustolerance" site, I shall take a look. -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:51:36 -0500 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3C03E0B6.1002F82C@erols.com> References: <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaEK0O8As4Z63KUG/0kmaYcVN402QsnBKrK6Hh96kZxnCtVuDmINg/0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60657 the softrat wrote: > >What's more important to me than exactly how the eggses/bunnies etc. got > >into the easter tradition is whether they are now a part of the > >Christian religious celebrations that actually take place at easter > >time. > > Not in the American Episcopal Church now or ever that I know of. Nor the Catholic Church, as least as I am aware. -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:52:41 -0500 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3C03E0F7.4AF3EEB7@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> <9tvju6$pih$1@news.wanadoo.es> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZmxpDUJMy9DF7Y6eMfqQkXHIKZRnGoj/Ck+rEGFzyb/zrZ6niWHJN8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60284 RLV wrote: > In this catholic area there is an egg celebration associated to Easter. It > is not part of the religious rituals, just as Christmas feasting or > gift-giving is not associated to Christmas mass, but they are part of the > same tradition. > > No bunnys, though. There used to be, but Franco abolished it out of sheer malice. ;-) -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:53:38 -0500 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3C03E130.2BBB419B@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3C02DA03.FDBDF663@erols.com> <9tvk1l$pmb$1@news.wanadoo.es> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbmwNBwPFoK/gRRgh27LrShaneEnflP5KBuMAZfkP8eR8hPRcMmacCy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:29 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60665 RLV wrote: > > It is an historical fact that some pagan societies the Church > > encountered were thinly disguised devil or demon worship. > > Many countries were evagelized in the early centuries by > > breaking the power of the local demons. > > It's just that what the church called local demos the natives called gods. > > How could they worship the devil if they didn't know it existed? That's correct. The natives required a little gentle correction, once you got their attention. -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:02:15 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C03E335.2AA9CB6B@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <3C02DAFC.1F7C0867@erols.com> <3c035c33.20085654@news.saix.net> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaHD1R/wSxKCgkp48+YznElk6aQCPSbSmVL7zFgu2kCgi7hFYBdEMBF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:31 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60276 Steve Hayes wrote: > In Rome it was changed to 1 November, when the Roman Pope dedicated a church > to All Saints on that day. I doubt that anyone there had ever heard of > Samhain. Only later did it come to be celebrated in other parts of Western > Christendom, and after a couple of centuries it was made obligatory. It then > reached Ireland, and the Irish brought some of their customs to its > celebration. I have confirmed this from another source and stand corrected. Thank you, Steve. -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:04:30 -0500 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C03E3BC.D7D26C6B@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C02D90A.843C8C@erols.com> <3c035f8d.20943606@news.saix.net> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZjvAyqvfHk4wCgeJ8gZZMIark6bhMa/gIiAAzi1zEFkvuoSYoV2+Zj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:32 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60282 Steve Hayes wrote: > >The Greek Church actually split > >over the date of Easter, with the so-called Old Calendarists > >holding to the Julian date. > > Actually that's one thing most of the Orthodox are agreed on. Pascha must fall > after the Jewish Passover (in the West it sometimes comes before), and old and > new calendrists observe Easter on the same day. The date for Christians is > different, however, and those on the old calendar observe it on 7 January. Sigh. Again you are correct; I knew that, but was rather fatigued last night. The split is over the use of the Calendar for fixed feasts such as Christmas; the Orthodox do indeed used the Julian rule for Easter. -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:05:38 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C03E400.5B4725F5@erols.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> <3c03606a.21164723@news.saix.net> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZgjB3hvu0u0LYOB4DtGYPXzt8w8Ip0LCcr/pZRD37cc0yqTUVAhzfA X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:15:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60655 morgan mair fheal wrote: > chocolate eggs > actually chocolate anything > is a profoundly religious experience I agree, and therefore chocolate should be exempt from taxation in the US. -- -- FotW "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." -- writer Howard Jacobson's reaction to the Waterstone's poll ###### From: "David Flood" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:13:00 -0000 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9u0oe5$ag2$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-99.oenghus.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1006888197 10754 62.137.248.99 (27 Nov 2001 19:09:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 2001 19:09:57 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60426 "the softrat" wrote in message news:of660u4dpt7djm1vqsl9ehcflj5s4mej0o@4ax.com... > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:25:42 -0500, Johnathan George > wrote: > > >What's more important to me than exactly how the eggses/bunnies etc. got > >into the easter tradition is whether they are now a part of the > >Christian religious celebrations that actually take place at easter > >time. > > Not in the American Episcopal Church now or ever that I know of. What would Anglicans know? ;) Daithí ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:43:54 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 87 Message-ID: <3c047941.6649801@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C03E069.B0C8DC56@erols.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-01-p170.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1006929727 26938 155.239.194.170 (28 Nov 2001 06:42:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2001 06:42:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60304 On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:50:19 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: > >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> Fair enough. We seem to be agreed that there are some parts of the >> celebration which were derived from other sources, but not on the >> implications of this. I'd generally assume it more likely that the >> church adopted the forms of other celebrations than for the locals to >> have inserted them, but in truth it was likely something of both. > >In the first few centuries, the Church was much more decentralized >than it is now. If a local bishop observed the newly converted >carrying on some vestigal pagan celebration, it is unlikely he would >have written to Rome about it; he'd just insert a festival into the >local liturgical calendar. The first great uniformization of the >Western liturgy occurred under Charlemagne; it seems likely that >this is when so many local customs from the Celtic and Germanic >areas made it into the Roman calendar. These discussions tend to get off track, because they very often deal with things that are not a good illustration. Easter, Chriostmas and Hallowe'en are not usually good examples of the interaction between Christianity and Northern paganism. Pascha comes from the Jewish Passover. Christmas arises more from pressures and conflicts within Christianity than interaction from outside (the Arian controversy probably played a role in it). Most of the allegations of "pagan influence" are wildly anachronistic (especially the Hallowe'en one). There are better examples, and ones more relevant to Tolkien. Consider Beowulf, for example, which Tolkien loved, and which undoubtedly influenced his work. It is the Christian retelling of a pagan legend, and the interaction of Christian and pagan elements is quite interesting. Or consider saints like Elijah and Bridget of Kildare. St Bridget of Kildare was probably named after a pagan goddess. From a Christian point of view she was a holy woman, a founder of a monastery, and got venerated as a saint. After her death, some of the legends relating to the goddes got attached to her, so the deeds of the pagan goddess were later recounted as miracles of the Christian saint. Similarly, in Russia many of the deeds of the pagan god Perun were attributed to St Elijah. >> A great site for info about this (and comparative religions in >> general) is; >> >> http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm > >All right, all right: since so many out there seem to recommend >this "religioustolerance" site, I shall take a look. It's worth a look, but it's not all that accurate, and sometimes its "tolerance" is quite selective. A dicussion of comparative religion would be getting off-topic here, though, so if you want to follow up that, I suggest: DISCUSSION FORUMS FOR RELIGION There are three discussion forums for religion and inter- religious dialogue that you may find useful: RELIGION - for general religious and interreligious dis- cussions about any religion, old or new. NUREL - an interdisciplinary forum for scholarly and academic discussion of new religious movements, in particular those that have come into being in the last 200 years. PHILOS - for discussion between Christians of different background and traditions More information about these conferences and how to join them may be found on the following web page: http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/stanmer/182/religion.htm There are several different ways of participating - by e-mail mailing list or BBS. The web page gives the details. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:43:54 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3c0472cc.4996765@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> <3c03606a.21164723@news.saix.net> <3C03E400.5B4725F5@erols.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-01-p170.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1006929726 26938 155.239.194.170 (28 Nov 2001 06:42:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2001 06:42:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60313 On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:05:38 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: > >morgan mair fheal wrote: > >> chocolate eggs >> actually chocolate anything >> is a profoundly religious experience > >I agree, and therefore chocolate should be exempt from >taxation in the US. Eastern Christians use hen's eggs as Easter eggs, because they give up eggs (and dairy, meat and fish) for Lent. Western Christians use chocolate eggs for Easter eggs, because they give up chocolate for Lent. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: bhsu@ringil.cis.ksu.edu (William H. Hsu) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: 27 Nov 2001 15:27:24 -0600 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9u10fs$cap$1@ringil.cis.ksu.edu> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff <3C03E400.5B4725F5@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ringil.user.cis.ksu.edu X-Trace: cnn.cns.ksu.edu 1006896446 23043 129.130.10.50 (27 Nov 2001 21:27:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ksu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:27:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsfeed.ksu.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60385 Flame of the West writes: >morgan mair fheal wrote: >> chocolate eggs >> actually chocolate anything >> is a profoundly religious experience >I agree, and therefore chocolate should be exempt from >taxation in the US. why, i do believe that's the most eminently sensible thing i've ever seen you psot, sah. -- Banazir (nay other CHOKLIT-oriented policies are welcome) ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:47:34 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9u3p43$hgv$4@news.wanadoo.es> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> <9tvju6$pih$1@news.wanadoo.es> <3C03E0F7.4AF3EEB7@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-37-108-100.dialup.uni2.es X-Trace: news.wanadoo.es 1006987204 17951 62.37.108.100 (28 Nov 2001 22:40:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@wanadoo.es NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:40:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.comtenidos.com!newsfeeder.wanadoo.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60761 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3C03E0F7.4AF3EEB7@erols.com... > > RLV wrote: > > > In this catholic area there is an egg celebration associated to Easter. It > > is not part of the religious rituals, just as Christmas feasting or > > gift-giving is not associated to Christmas mass, but they are part of the > > same tradition. > > > > No bunnys, though. > > There used to be, but Franco abolished it out of sheer malice. ;-) Now that you mention it... R.L.V. ~~~~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:50:13 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo Lines: 38 Message-ID: <9u3p44$hgv$5@news.wanadoo.es> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3C010BE2.864AE968@erols.com> <1178b6d1.0111260448.8a24ff5@posting.google.com> <3C0315C6.23344E0A@mindspring.com> <3c03606a.21164723@news.saix.net> <3C03E400.5B4725F5@erols.com> <3c0472cc.4996765@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-37-108-100.dialup.uni2.es X-Trace: news.wanadoo.es 1006987205 17951 62.37.108.100 (28 Nov 2001 22:40:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@wanadoo.es NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:40:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!opentransit.net!newsfeed.comtenidos.com!newsfeeder.wanadoo.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60762 "Steve Hayes" wrote in message news:3c0472cc.4996765@news.saix.net... > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:05:38 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: > > > > >morgan mair fheal wrote: > > > >> chocolate eggs > >> actually chocolate anything > >> is a profoundly religious experience > > > >I agree, and therefore chocolate should be exempt from > >taxation in the US. > > Eastern Christians use hen's eggs as Easter eggs, because they give up eggs > (and dairy, meat and fish) for Lent. > > Western Christians use chocolate eggs for Easter eggs, because they give up > chocolate for Lent. Hen's eggs were (and still are) used in this corner of Western Christianity. Chocolate eggs came later. I don't remember any chocolate privation for Lent. Chicken eggs... maybe, in a strict interpretation of meat. R.L.V. ~~~~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "John McCafferty" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9tqoh0$fnb$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3C00ED57.B2D99466@erols.com> <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:54:38 EST Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:03:02 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!64.154.60.70.MISMATCH!newsfeeds-atl2!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60935 "morgan mair fheal" wrote in message news:mair_fheal-2611011930140001@c27.ppp.tsoft.com... > In article <9tto8f$a36$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>, "Douglas Eckhart" > wrote: > > >My impression is that most devout Christians DO regard paganism as > >synonymous or at least 'down the road' to devil worship. With regards to the > > if christianity is completely correct > youre either a christian and saved > or youre not a christian and damned > > if christianity is completely correct > it doesnt matter if you worship ganesh or the mother goddess or satan > that would all be false religions MY GOSH! I was curious about whether or not I understood a term correctly, and I triggered a thread like this? And setting out a troll was the last thing I'd have ever thought of ... ###### From: "Luke Goaman-Dodson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:13:33 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 10 Message-ID: <9uihpq$1o1$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3c01ba9b.64498098@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-115-43.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61695 "Steve Hayes" wrote in message news:3c01ba9b.64498098@news.saix.net... > I don't know about bunnies, but the eggs are Christian enough. Uf you haven't > eaten them all during Lent, it's quite a big deal. I'm sure you've heard of Eostre's hare, who went around laying eggs because it was polymorphed into a bird and then back again? ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: THE ORIGINS OF THE WOD 'WITCH' WAS:Re: Witches Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 02:39:21 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3c0d2932.61515632@news.saix.net> References: <9qsfha$7rv$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <7go3tt0jbpmaop7eff15pp9fm4s916q3iu@4ax.com> <3BE125DA.82272958@erols.com> <9rsaai$vacue$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BE1B5D0.D40C9DBC@hotmail.com> <9to74v$ek6$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <9toh4b$ru1$1@news2.kornet.net> <9tpjk3$lti$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3C0079DA.88C89349@erols.com> <3c01ba9b.64498098@news.saix.net> <9uihpq$1o1$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-01-p186.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1007519874 6160 155.239.194.186 (5 Dec 2001 02:37:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 2001 02:37:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:61762 On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:13:33 -0000, "Luke Goaman-Dodson" wrote: >"Steve Hayes" wrote in message >news:3c01ba9b.64498098@news.saix.net... >> I don't know about bunnies, but the eggs are Christian enough. Uf >you haven't >> eaten them all during Lent, it's quite a big deal. > >I'm sure you've heard of Eostre's hare, who went around laying eggs >because it was polymorphed into a bird and then back again? Object-oriented Paschal eggs? > -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm