From: jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Elves here and now Date: 14 Nov 2001 11:45:27 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 7 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005767127 28214 127.0.0.1 (14 Nov 2001 19:45:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2001 19:45:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58073 We know that the Elves that fade cease to be visible at all before the word ends. They become wraiths, as has happened to the men faded. The Elves who die stay in the world and may refuse summons to Mandos. They can then be contacted. It's evil to attempt that, but it's not inherently impossible. Is there any substantial difference, here and now, between the elves who've died and those who've not? ###### From: "Matt Drury" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:55:51 -0500 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 6 Message-ID: <9sulop$np6$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.120.103.174 X-Trace: suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com 1005771353 24358 63.120.103.174 (14 Nov 2001 20:55:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2001 20:55:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58313 > They can then be contacted. It's evil to attempt that, but it's not > inherently impossible. "Evil" in what context? ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:19:59 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9suu6j$g48$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9sulop$np6$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u061.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1005779988 16520 62.103.251.61 (14 Nov 2001 23:19:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:19:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58207 "Matt Drury" wrote in message news:9sulop$np6$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com... > > They can then be contacted. It's evil to attempt that, but it's not > > inherently impossible. > > "Evil" in what context? I don't remember exactly, but I think Tolkien just called it dangerous, since these will be creatures who have rejected the calls to Aman and Mandos and may be even deeper in the Dark. Aris Katsaris ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 14 Nov 2001 19:35:37 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <9sulop$np6$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <9suu6j$g48$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005795337 3751 127.0.0.1 (15 Nov 2001 03:35:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 2001 03:35:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58261 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:<9suu6j$g48$1@usenet.otenet.gr>... > "Matt Drury" wrote in message > news:9sulop$np6$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com... > > > They can then be contacted. It's evil to attempt that, but it's not > > > inherently impossible. > > > > "Evil" in what context? > > I don't remember exactly, but I think Tolkien just called it dangerous, > since > these will be creatures who have rejected the calls to Aman and Mandos and > may be even deeper in the Dark. > > Aris Katsaris He goes into a bit more detail. Among other things, Men have inherently less talent at that sort of thing than Elves, and no Man can begin to match the experience such an entity accumulates over the ages. Further, such contact risks possession, since the entity might just have a hankering to be able to interact directly with the world again, and enjoy a few physical pleasures. In fact, though, even by the Third Age, the wiser Men suspected that it was somewhat risky for a Man to deliberately seek out contact with the Elves unless it was for some great need. Faramir says: "Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lorien, seldom to return. Not I. For I deem it perilous now for mortal man willfully to seek out the Elder People. Yet I envy you that you have spoken with the White Lady." Faramir is certainly not an anti-Elven bigot, as some Men were even in Gondor and Rohan, but he has a suspicion that the time for association was for the most part already past, even then. Shermanlee Shermanlee ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:18:00 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c88.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58274 In article , jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) wrote: >We know that the Elves that fade cease to be visible at all before the >word ends. They become wraiths, as has happened to the men faded. >The Elves who die stay in the world and may refuse summons to Mandos. >They can then be contacted. It's evil to attempt that, but it's not >inherently impossible. >Is there any substantial difference, here and now, between the elves >who've died and those who've not? dead elves have no bodies and cant affect the material world they seek out unwary people to comandeer the bodies faded elves still have their own bodies ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:40:31 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-70-174.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58287 Whats all this about? I never knew about any of this stuff. although I've read in several places about how elves eventially 'fade' from the world, I've always taken that to mean that they will die off/leave, general decline of the race really. Is it stated somewhere that they actually fade, as in turn transparant??!! Thats news to me. I take it though, this is referring to the unlikely event that there are any elves still lingering in the world today? Douglas "morgan mair fheal" wrote in message news:mair_fheal-1411012018010001@c88.ppp.tsoft.com... > In article , > jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) wrote: > > >We know that the Elves that fade cease to be visible at all before the > >word ends. They become wraiths, as has happened to the men faded. > >The Elves who die stay in the world and may refuse summons to Mandos. > >They can then be contacted. It's evil to attempt that, but it's not > >inherently impossible. > >Is there any substantial difference, here and now, between the elves > >who've died and those who've not? > > dead elves have no bodies and cant affect the material world > they seek out unwary people to comandeer the bodies > faded elves still have their own bodies ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 22:34:13 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 31 Message-ID: <9t18rq$c8u$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o082.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1005856443 12574 212.205.252.82 (15 Nov 2001 20:34:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:34:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58362 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com... > Whats all this about? > I never knew about any of this stuff. > although I've read in several places about how elves eventially 'fade' from > the world, I've always taken that to mean that they will die off/leave, > general decline of the race really. That's also what I thought when I first read LOTR... But Tolkien hints in other places that it's not just that - as he says in the Silmarillion their spirits consume their bodies from within, with the passage of time. He goes into more detail in some of the HOME books... > Is it stated somewhere that they actually fade, as in turn transparant??!! Morgoth's Ring, I think... > Thats news to me. > > I take it though, this is referring to the unlikely event that there are any > elves still lingering in the world today? That's why they are called Lingerers, IIRC.. :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 15 Nov 2001 20:15:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005884109 27074 127.0.0.1 (16 Nov 2001 04:15:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2001 04:15:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58465 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:<9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>... > Whats all this about? > I never knew about any of this stuff. > although I've read in several places about how elves eventially 'fade' from > the world, I've always taken that to mean that they will die off/leave, > general decline of the race really. > Is it stated somewhere that they actually fade, as in turn transparant??!! > > Thats news to me. > > I take it though, this is referring to the unlikely event that there are any > elves still lingering in the world today? > > Douglas "Already she seemed to him [Frodo], as by Men of later days Elves still at times are seen..." Tolkien indicates here and there in his tales that there are still a few Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits left, even today. Of Hobbits he states this expressly in the opening stages of LOTR. Incidentally, I suspect I could name at least one name: Maglor son of Feanor, IMHO, almost certainly wanders the world of Men even yet in 2001. I base this on a hunch, nothing more, from the way the last part of the Silmarillion reads. I would even hazard a guess that he might not yet have 'faded'. Shermanlee ###### From: jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 16 Nov 2001 11:06:47 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005937608 6991 127.0.0.1 (16 Nov 2001 19:06:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2001 19:06:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58475 shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote in message news:... > "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:<9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>... > > Whats all this about? > > I never knew about any of this stuff. > > although I've read in several places about how elves eventially 'fade' from > > the world, I've always taken that to mean that they will die off/leave, > > general decline of the race really. > > Is it stated somewhere that they actually fade, as in turn transparant??!! > > > > Thats news to me. > > > > I take it though, this is referring to the unlikely event that there are any > > elves still lingering in the world today? > > > > Douglas > > > "Already she seemed to him [Frodo], as by Men of later days Elves > still at times are seen..." > > Tolkien indicates here and there in his tales that there are still a > few Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits left, even today. Dwarves and Hobbits must necessarily be few, as well as any unfaded Elves. But faded Elves wouldv be less noticeable than even very secretive Hobbits or Dwarves, so there may well be a lot of them. After all, now that they are normally invisible, none would bother to kill them, and they don't die off for other reasons. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:52:33 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 46 Message-ID: <9t3qme$ea9$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-32-221.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58456 So they do actually 'fade' as such, as in they become transparant, eventially becoming completely invisible by today? so if we met one today, it would be completely invisible to us, a ghostly presense in effect? Douglas "Johnny1A" wrote in message news:b3030854.0111152015.5ab37fc8@posting.google.com... > "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:<9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>... > > Whats all this about? > > I never knew about any of this stuff. > > although I've read in several places about how elves eventially 'fade' from > > the world, I've always taken that to mean that they will die off/leave, > > general decline of the race really. > > Is it stated somewhere that they actually fade, as in turn transparant??!! > > > > Thats news to me. > > > > I take it though, this is referring to the unlikely event that there are any > > elves still lingering in the world today? > > > > Douglas > > > "Already she seemed to him [Frodo], as by Men of later days Elves > still at times are seen..." > > Tolkien indicates here and there in his tales that there are still a > few Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits left, even today. Of Hobbits he > states this expressly in the opening stages of LOTR. > > Incidentally, I suspect I could name at least one name: Maglor son of > Feanor, IMHO, almost certainly wanders the world of Men even yet in > 2001. I base this on a hunch, nothing more, from the way the last > part of the Silmarillion reads. > I would even hazard a guess that he might not yet have 'faded'. > > Shermanlee ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:14:54 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9t3qme$ea9$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!usenetserver.com!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58502 On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:52:33 -0000, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >So they do actually 'fade' as such, as in they become transparant, >eventially becoming completely invisible by today? > >so if we met one today, it would be completely invisible to us, a ghostly >presense in effect? > Yes, rather like John Fitzgerald Kennedy. or Truman Capote.... the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- With a running leap, one can take offence at almost anything. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:38:44 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9t3qme$ea9$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c94.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58673 In article <9t3qme$ea9$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >So they do actually 'fade' as such, as in they become transparant, >eventially becoming completely invisible by today? > >so if we met one today, it would be completely invisible to us, a ghostly >presense in effect? it seems that jrrt was trying to fade the tall and mighty elves of the silmarillion into the dminiutive bluebell dwellers of modern folklore ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 16 Nov 2001 20:21:41 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9t3qme$ea9$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.145.156.32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005970901 14390 127.0.0.1 (17 Nov 2001 04:21:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 2001 04:21:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58669 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:<9t3qme$ea9$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>... > So they do actually 'fade' as such, as in they become transparant, > eventially becoming completely invisible by today? > > so if we met one today, it would be completely invisible to us, a ghostly > presense in effect? > > Douglas > > "Johnny1A" wrote in message > news:b3030854.0111152015.5ab37fc8@posting.google.com... > > "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message > news:<9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>... > > > Whats all this about? > > > I never knew about any of this stuff. > > > although I've read in several places about how elves eventially 'fade' > from > > > the world, I've always taken that to mean that they will die off/leave, > > > general decline of the race really. > > > Is it stated somewhere that they actually fade, as in turn > transparant??!! > > > > > > Thats news to me. > > > > > > I take it though, this is referring to the unlikely event that there are > any > > > elves still lingering in the world today? > > > > > > Douglas > > > > > > "Already she seemed to him [Frodo], as by Men of later days Elves > > still at times are seen..." > > > > Tolkien indicates here and there in his tales that there are still a > > few Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits left, even today. Of Hobbits he > > states this expressly in the opening stages of LOTR. > > > > Incidentally, I suspect I could name at least one name: Maglor son of > > Feanor, IMHO, almost certainly wanders the world of Men even yet in > > 2001. I base this on a hunch, nothing more, from the way the last > > part of the Silmarillion reads. > > I would even hazard a guess that he might not yet have 'faded'. > > > > Shermanlee Well, Tolkien expounded various theories about the Elves, on both their physical and spiritual natures. Some of them were contradictory. I personally don't think that they would become invisible as such. I think it would be more of a spiritual fading, a loss of a sense of connection. If you met an Elf today, a living Elf, I don't think you'd necessarily recognize him as not being human unless he/she wanted you to do so. Shermanlee ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:07:36 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.be X-Server-Date: 17 Nov 2001 16:06:40 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58699 Johnny1A wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Incidentally, I suspect I could name at least one name: Maglor son of >Feanor, IMHO, almost certainly wanders the world of Men even yet in >2001. I base this on a hunch, nothing more, from the way the last >part of the Silmarillion reads. Really? He was on the seashore when the whole northwestern part of the continent dropped below the waves. Somehow I suspect Maglor went under with the rest of Beleriand. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 19 Nov 2001 20:35:36 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1006230937 2510 127.0.0.1 (20 Nov 2001 04:35:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2001 04:35:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59153 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Johnny1A wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Incidentally, I suspect I could name at least one name: Maglor son of > >Feanor, IMHO, almost certainly wanders the world of Men even yet in > >2001. I base this on a hunch, nothing more, from the way the last > >part of the Silmarillion reads. > > Really? He was on the seashore when the whole northwestern part of > the continent dropped below the waves. > > Somehow I suspect Maglor went under with the rest of Beleriand. Tolkien tells us for a fact that he did not. After the War of Wrath, Beleriand was sunk, but Maedhros and Maglor both survived, last of the Seven Sons of Feanor. They now faced a situation in which the Host of Valinor held the remaining two Silmarils, and the Oath required that they take them. They didn't want to do it, as Tolkien put it, they made the decision "with horror now and loathing", but the Oath was binding. Well, they got caught, but rather they slay them, Eonwe commanded that they be let go free with the Gems. (Maybe he already knew something they didn't?) They figured that they would each take a Gem, since it looked like Fate, two surviving Sons and two Gems. Unfortunately, the Gems were holy by Elbereth's command, and their crimes made them unworthy to touch them. The slightest contact with the Gems was agony. Then the brothers perceived that they were in a no-win situation: the Oath permitted no one else to keep the Silmarils, and yet they could not keep them either. Maedhros committed suicide by diving into the ocean. (I wonder if it was Mount Doom?) Maglor cast his Gem into a volcano (I wonder if it was Mount Doom) and then wondered the world in despair. Shermanlee ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:45:23 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.71 X-Server-Date: 20 Nov 2001 15:44:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59193 Johnny1A wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... >> Really? He was on the seashore when the whole northwestern part of >> the continent dropped below the waves. >> >> Somehow I suspect Maglor went under with the rest of Beleriand. > >Tolkien tells us for a fact that he did not. After the War of Wrath, >Beleriand was sunk, but Maedhros and Maglor both survived, last of the >Seven Sons of Feanor. I think you're probably right and I'm probably wrong. The "destruction of Beleriand" sentence is "For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more." The next paragraph begins, "Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfillment of their oath; ..." Bad memory: I had even listened to that chapter on CD just a couple of days ago. I note that Tolkien doesn't explicitly say in the quoted paragraph that Beleriand dropped beneath the waves, but when else could it have happened? So I think you're probably right and I'm probably wrong. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 21 Nov 2001 00:00:36 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6u3d3982uj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1006297238 356 10.0.3.2 (20 Nov 2001 23:00:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2001 23:00:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59210 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > I note that Tolkien doesn't explicitly say in the quoted paragraph > that Beleriand dropped beneath the waves, but when else could it > have happened? So I think you're probably right and I'm probably > wrong. I have an faint memory (from The Lost Road?), that Beleriand was only fully sunk when Numenor was destroyed. Not entirely canonical... -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: Elves here and now Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <7ACK7.197406$W8.7411091@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:29:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1006302595 12.79.56.130 (Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:29:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:29:55 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59241 "Johnny1A" wrote in message news:b3030854.0111192035.29022eaa@posting.google.com... > After the War of Wrath, Beleriand was sunk, but Maedhros and Maglor > both survived, last of the Seven Sons of Feanor. As noted in other posts Tolkien indicated elsewhere that the 'sinking' did not take place immediately - which stands to reason or they'd all have been drowned. > Maedhros committed suicide by diving into the ocean. (I wonder > if it was Mount Doom?) > Maglor cast his Gem into a volcano (I wonder if it was Mount > Doom) and then wondered the world in despair. These look like they got a bit mixed up in your editing (Mount Doom speculation appearing on both and all)... Maedhros threw himself into a fiery fissure - apparently caused by the upheaval in Beleriand and thus unlikely to have been Mount Doom. It was Maglor who cast his Silmaril into the Sea, and thereafter wandered the shoreline (possibly still bound by the stone in some fashion). ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 20 Nov 2001 20:32:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <6u3d3982uj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.145.156.62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1006317135 24705 127.0.0.1 (21 Nov 2001 04:32:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2001 04:32:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59371 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:<6u3d3982uj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > > I note that Tolkien doesn't explicitly say in the quoted paragraph > > that Beleriand dropped beneath the waves, but when else could it > > have happened? So I think you're probably right and I'm probably > > wrong. > > I have an faint memory (from The Lost Road?), that Beleriand was only > fully sunk when Numenor was destroyed. Not entirely canonical... IIRC, Beleriand had not yet _entirely_ sunk even by Frodo's time. A small remnant still existed beyond the Blue Mountains. Shermanlee ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 22 Nov 2001 21:32:54 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <7ACK7.197406$W8.7411091@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1006493574 31356 127.0.0.1 (23 Nov 2001 05:32:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 2001 05:32:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:59630 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:<7ACK7.197406$W8.7411091@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > "Johnny1A" wrote in message > news:b3030854.0111192035.29022eaa@posting.google.com... > > > After the War of Wrath, Beleriand was sunk, but Maedhros and Maglor > > both survived, last of the Seven Sons of Feanor. > > As noted in other posts Tolkien indicated elsewhere that the > 'sinking' did not take place immediately - which stands to reason > or they'd all have been drowned. > > > Maedhros committed suicide by diving into the ocean. (I wonder > > if it was Mount Doom?) > > > Maglor cast his Gem into a volcano (I wonder if it was Mount > > Doom) and then wondered the world in despair. > > These look like they got a bit mixed up in your editing (Mount Doom > speculation appearing on both and all)... Maedhros threw himself > into a fiery fissure - apparently caused by the upheaval in Beleriand > and thus unlikely to have been Mount Doom. It was Maglor who cast > his Silmaril into the Sea, and thereafter wandered the shoreline > (possibly still bound by the stone in some fashion). I did goof up my editing. As for Mt. Doom, I agree it isn't _likely_, but it could be, since we don't know how far the Son of Feanor got before couldn't take the pain anymore. Mt. Doom had to start out somewhere, and most volcanoes could be said to be born from a fiery fissure. Mt. Doom wasn't hugely tall and was highly explosive. That suggests a relatively young volcano, since such peaks can build up remarkably fast. Shermanlee ###### From: jaaguke@MailAndNews.com (Jaak Suurpere) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves here and now Date: 26 Nov 2001 06:39:59 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <9t0nhq$iie$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <7ACK7.197406$W8.7411091@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1006785600 24150 127.0.0.1 (26 Nov 2001 14:40:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2001 14:40:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:60204 shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote in message news:... > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:<7ACK7.197406$W8.7411091@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > "Johnny1A" wrote in message > > news:b3030854.0111192035.29022eaa@posting.google.com... > > > > > After the War of Wrath, Beleriand was sunk, but Maedhros and Maglor > > > both survived, last of the Seven Sons of Feanor. > > > > As noted in other posts Tolkien indicated elsewhere that the > > 'sinking' did not take place immediately - which stands to reason > > or they'd all have been drowned. > > > > > Maedhros committed suicide by diving into the ocean. (I wonder > > > if it was Mount Doom?) > > > > Maglor cast his Gem into a volcano (I wonder if it was Mount > > > Doom) and then wondered the world in despair. > > > > These look like they got a bit mixed up in your editing (Mount Doom > > speculation appearing on both and all)... Maedhros threw himself > > into a fiery fissure - apparently caused by the upheaval in Beleriand > > and thus unlikely to have been Mount Doom. It was Maglor who cast > > his Silmaril into the Sea, and thereafter wandered the shoreline > > (possibly still bound by the stone in some fashion). > > I did goof up my editing. As for Mt. Doom, I agree it isn't _likely_, > but it could be, since we don't know how far the Son of Feanor got > before couldn't take the pain anymore. Mt. Doom had to start out > somewhere, and most volcanoes could be said to be born from a fiery > fissure. Mt. Doom wasn't hugely tall and was highly explosive. That > suggests a relatively young volcano, since such peaks can build up > remarkably fast. > I think that normal, natural lava is hardly hot enough to melt objects that no elven or dwarven furnace nor even dragonfire can. Mount Doom is probably more supernatural in nature.