From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 12:23:29 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 38 Message-ID: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-131-161.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57555 What do people think are the average height of Elves, with relation to humans? In most Norse and Celtic mythology, which Tolkien has partly been inspired by, Elves are either the same size or often even TALLER than humans, so I imagine the Elves of Middle-earth with this in mind. It's just that somebody was talking on the group recently of how they imagined Elves being slimmer and slightly smaller than Humans. Slimmer, yes, but slightly smaller seems to smack of the old D&D bollocks once again, In D&D, elves come up to about neck height compared to men (aprox) Galadriel for example is tall and graceful. Its hard to imagine that, if she stood up to neck height in front of you! Its just amazing though how D&D has infiltrated into most fantasy genres, eg The elvish ears being made famous (and hideously exaggerated - see 'Hawk The Slayer' for a laughable example) Whether or not you believe that Elves had pointed ears or not in Middle-earth, its probably safe to assume that they are 'slightly' pointed, not the aerials that you can tie in a knot above your head, as D&D would have us believe. Actually, the slightly pointed ears as depicted in the lotr movies are probably about right. One thing however on the 'point' about ears....... Cate blanchett makes a great Galadriel, she has the presence for it, but this is marred in my opinion by the fact that she is forced to have her elvish ears sticking out through her hair in a stupid looking way........ obviously just to let the audience know that she is an Elf, but come on!!!!! Any way, that's my rant over for today! Regards Douglas ###### From: James Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.90 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1005309219 210.80.135.90 (Fri, 09 Nov 2001 23:33:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 23:33:39 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 23:34:03 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!ply1.onvoy!onvoy.com!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57566 Douglas Eckhart : > In most Norse and Celtic mythology, which Tolkien has partly been inspired >by, Elves are either the same size or often even TALLER than humans, so I >imagine the Elves of Middle-earth with this in mind. Really? While I certainly agree that ME Elves are taller than humans, I'm not sure the Norse/Celtic tall-elf idea is strictly true - as I understand it, the Germanic and Norse "elf" (or "alf" or "aelf") was the local version of the common archetype of a mischievous, secretive, magical, deal-making little creature. I don't think Tolkien based the heights/appearances of his Elves on the traditional depiction of elves in folklore (weren't the Wood-elves at one time referred to as "gnomes"? Hard to imagine them living in mushrooms, perhaps on teensy tiny flets). I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. James ###### From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:22:28 -0700 Organization: Rivendell Enterprises Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57561 [Douglas Eckhart] [Fri, 9 Nov 2001 12:23:29 -0000] :What do people think are the average height of Elves, with relation to :humans? I'd say around 5'10".. slightly taller than the average human. I bet that a lot of people will say shorter, though... the idiotic Santa Claus elves have done much damage. -- ____ _________________ \ \ / / Virginia Tech Hokies \ \ / ____ _____/ The Class of the Big East \ \ / / / / \ \/ / / / Bryan S. Slick, sbryan7@qwest.not \ / / / \ / / / "To those who preserve it, freedom has a \ / / / flavor the protected will never know." \/ /___/ ###### From: "Larry" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:21:06 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:27:26 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!cyclone-atl1!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!atlpnn01.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57577 "James" wrote in message news:jvinut0u2dtrqmfo48i80hi4345s48qvq6@4ax.com... > Douglas Eckhart : > > I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of > their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. > Like the old song goes: Short people, got no reason, no reason to live. ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Nov 2001 15:08:41 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57484 In article , James writes: >I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of >their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual perfection. After all, I am 6'5". Generally, Elves are taller than Men. Of course, Men have Hobbits and Druedain bringing down the average. But there are specific races of Men that are as tall or taller than the average Elf, i.e. the Marachians. Russ ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:11:08 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c18.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57546 In article , "Larry" wrote: >"James" wrote in message >news:jvinut0u2dtrqmfo48i80hi4345s48qvq6@4ax.com... >> Douglas Eckhart : >> >> I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of >> their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. >> > >Like the old song goes: > >Short people, got no reason, no reason to live. elves diminish over time get smaller and less substantial until they faded into the teensy creatruews of faerie queene ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 21:23:24 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1005346891 195.82.196.168 (Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:01:31 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:01:31 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57474 "Russ" skrev i en meddelelse news:20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com... > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". Bloody hell. I feel a midget at measly 6' straight. Marghvran. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 09:00:16 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005346861 8316 192.168.30.113 (9 Nov 2001 23:01:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Nov 2001 23:01:01 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57523 In article <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com>, Russ says... > In article , James writes: > > >I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of > >their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". I'll agree with that. -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### From: "Norseman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.172.14.157 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:02:42 MET Organization: Nextra Public Access X-Trace: readme.online.no 1005346962 146.172.14.157 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:02:46 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.158.233.21.MISMATCH!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news1.oke.nextra.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57531 "Douglas Eckhart" skrev i melding news:9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com... > What do people think are the average height of Elves, with relation to > humans? > > In most Norse and Celtic mythology, which Tolkien has partly been inspired > by, Elves are either the same size or often even TALLER than humans, so I > imagine the Elves of Middle-earth with this in mind. Definitely not in Norse mythology, in fact elf (alv) is rarely used as a distinction. Where it is used, it's almost always in reference to dwarfish underground creatures. I've never read of man sized or taller elves in Norse mythology, though I'm sure there may be exceptions that I've missed. To me the man sized elf has always been a product of modern fantasy (Tolkien, D&D, Warhammer), where in all mythos I've come across they're small to tiny creatures, sometimes winged... like Balrogs. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:41:01 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-170-237.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57542 "James" wrote in message news:jvinut0u2dtrqmfo48i80hi4345s48qvq6@4ax.com... > Really? While I certainly agree that ME Elves are taller than humans, > I'm not sure the Norse/Celtic tall-elf idea is strictly true - as I > understand it, the Germanic and Norse "elf" (or "alf" or "aelf") was > the local version of the common archetype of a mischievous, secretive, > magical, deal-making little creature. I don't think Tolkien based the > heights/appearances of his Elves on the traditional depiction of elves > in folklore (weren't the Wood-elves at one time referred to as > "gnomes"? Hard to imagine them living in mushrooms, perhaps on teensy > tiny flets). > James well, actually there are different kind of creatures who have in recent years been lumped under the general term 'elf' there is the diminutive ugly, sometimes evil goblinesque type and the tall 'aryan' type or 'the Fair Folk' (origin of the word 'Fairy'). The Celts refer to the 'Aryan' type as the 'Tuatha e dannan'. Anglo-Saxon kings or nobles often claimed decent from the 'Fair Folk' Elves and represented this in their names, eg Elfwine etc, I cant remember the many names off hand, but anyway the names basically translated as 'son of' or 'descended from' Elvish blood. The small ugly goblinesque 'trollish' type was a different type of creature but in more recent years have become totally confused with the 'Fair Folk' mainly thanks to Shakespeare and later Victorian convention. Nowadays, the 'Fairies' or 'Fair Folk' to use the original form, have become synonymous with irritating little gits with wings. I think that's partly what Tolkien was attempting to do with his work.....to set the record straight again as it were. Douglas ###### Sender: Robert Brady From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shdb7$13acbl$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i686)) Message-ID: Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:44:09 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.107.113.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1005354400 213.107.113.136 (Sat, 10 Nov 2001 01:06:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 01:06:40 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57442 Andrew Wells wrote: > Douglas Eckhart wrote in message > news:9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com... >> What do people think are the average height of Elves, with relation to > humans? > There are references in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, which I > haven't got time to piece together right now. Men average around 6' 4", > elves 6' 6". Some quick references from Unfinished Tales. "Numenorean Linear Measures" "An average height [for a Numenorean] of six feet four inches..." aka "two ragna" or "man-high" "Elendil was said to be more than man-high by nearly half a ragna, but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the Downfall" That makes Elendil nearly 7 feet. "Galadriel, 'the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell', was said to be man-high", six-foot-four. -- Robert ###### From: James Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.164 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1005360778 210.80.135.164 (Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:52:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:52:58 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:53:14 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!ply1.onvoy!onvoy.com!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57584 Douglas Eckhart : >The Celts >refer to the 'Aryan' type as the 'Tuatha e dannan'. That's all well and good, but what does this have to do with elves? As far as I know, Tolkien was the first to use "elf" to refer to a man-sized or taller creature, and this usage was adapted and exaggerated to the point of parody by D&D and suchlike. If you can find an earlier author or mythological reference which makes connects the term to the ME-style creatures, I'd be fascinated to hear it! As far as I know, Norse mythology had the terms "Elf" and "Dwarf" as synonymous (as shown in the names for Dwarves in the Voluspa, which include Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, During, Wand-elf and Wind-elf). James ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:03:20 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 43 Message-ID: <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-70-110.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57553 "James" wrote in message news:df5put06kclb8kkneg4hjgba4f9njt7ca1@4ax.com... > Douglas Eckhart : > >The Celts > >refer to the 'Aryan' type as the 'Tuatha e dannan'. > > That's all well and good, but what does this have to do with elves? As > far as I know, Tolkien was the first to use "elf" to refer to a > man-sized or taller creature, and this usage was adapted and > exaggerated to the point of parody by D&D and suchlike. If you can > find an earlier author or mythological reference which makes connects > the term to the ME-style creatures, I'd be fascinated to hear it! > > As far as I know, Norse mythology had the terms "Elf" and "Dwarf" as > synonymous (as shown in the names for Dwarves in the Voluspa, which > include Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, During, Wand-elf and Wind-elf). > > James I believe that the anglo-saxons (english) did think of the 'elf' as man size, similar to the celtic 'tuatha e dannan' Would saxon kings try to claim lineage from a diminutive 'trollish' ugly little creature? where's the glory in that? They linked themselves with the Elves or Elfs because they are of higher otherworldly race. At the same time though, I think you are probably right about the norse/nordic version of elfs. The saxons of course are also originally of nordic origin but their mythology has developed to be slightly different from their norse cousans. So while they have the same gods, their names have changed slightly eg Odin to Wotan etc. So perhaps the saxon vision of 'elfs' is different from the Norse. and this accounts for the other variety of elf creatures. To make matters more confusing however, the saxons ALSO believe in the small trollish creatures and they often get lumped in together but this is in later times. Douglas ###### Message-ID: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> From: Mark Kicksee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:21:37 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.87.235.234 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 1005405777 209.87.235.234 (Sat, 10 Nov 2001 09:22:57 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 09:22:57 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57434 Raven wrote: > "Russ" skrev i en meddelelse > news:20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com... > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > Bloody hell. I feel a midget at measly 6' straight. > > Marghvran. I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". Short people got... no reason... : ) Just kidding. ###### From: "Noora " Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:52:30 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG Lines: 23 Message-ID: <344d05f8a730a0452084a1c9b9eff577.25386@mygate.mailgate.org> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cache-hki-3.inet.fi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.mailgate.org 1005410223 23796 194.251.240.107 (Sat Nov 10 17:52:30 2001) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mailgate.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:52:30 +0000 (UTC) Injector-Info: news.mailgate.org; posting-host=cache-hki-3.inet.fi; posting-account=25386; posting-date=1005410223 User-Agent: Mailgate Web Server X-URL: http://www.Mailgate.ORG Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!web2news!cache-hki-3.inet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57638 > Definitely not in Norse mythology, in fact elf (alv) is rarely used as a > distinction. Where it is used, it's almost always in reference to dwarfish > underground creatures. I've never read of man sized or taller elves in Norse > mythology, though I'm sure there may be exceptions that I've missed. I've got some very vague background knowledge of Norse mythology but I did a quick search in evreka nevertheless... the site i found doesn't say what the Norse elves looked like, but they're certainly not the same as dwarfs, since there is Alfheim, the home of elves that's ruled by Freya, the goddess of fertility. Svartalfheim is the home or dark elves who are also called dwarfs. Freya isn't an Asa but a Van ('vaani' in Finnish, I'm not sure about the translitterisation), of another family of gods. I've got a funny feeling she'd be blonde but I'm not sure. this _might_ imply the Norse elves are blonde, too... certainly I don't imagine them as 'underground creatures'. - Noora -- Posted from cache-hki-3.inet.fi [194.251.240.107] via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: 10 Nov 2001 12:43:24 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 188 Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.0.244.69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005425004 12160 127.0.0.1 (10 Nov 2001 20:43:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2001 20:43:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57727 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:<9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>... > What do people think are the average height of Elves, with relation to > humans? > > In most Norse and Celtic mythology, which Tolkien has partly been inspired > by, Elves are either the same size or often even TALLER than humans, so I > imagine the Elves of Middle-earth with this in mind. > It's just that somebody was talking on the group recently of how they > imagined Elves being slimmer and slightly smaller than Humans. > Slimmer, yes, but slightly smaller seems to smack of the old D&D bollocks > once again, In D&D, elves come up to about neck height compared to men > (aprox) [snip] > Regards > Douglas I did this for a debate on another forum some tim back, but it may have some relevance and interest here. Comparison of the Height of Elves and Men in the Development of the Mythology Early 20's: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" From BoLT1. Very early conception when these 'Elves' were 'fairies' and not the Eldar of Tolkiens later conception, just very different and distant predecessors. ca. '26: "In early days Eldar and Men were of nearly equal stature and power of body... Men from the first though slightly bigger were more frail." SoME, Earliest Silmarillion, chapter 7. Note Men are only slightly bigger than the Elves. No difference is mentioned about power of body. The distinguishing elements of the Edainic house have not been introduced yet. ca. '30: "In early days Eldar and Men were of little different stature and bodily might; but the Eldar were blessed with greater skill, beauty and wit... More frail were men..." SoME, The Quenta, Chapter 7. Now Men and Elves are equivelent in height and strength the remark about Men being slightly bigger is dropped. Still no writings on the Edainic stature. ca. '37: "In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body.. More frail were Men." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 7. (And also the '77 published Sil). The idea of Men being bigger remained dropped. (Note Elves and Men generic not specific, just as with the above posts, Eldar=Elves). But Edainic elements enter. ca. '37: "[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader their legs shorter and less swift... the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes grey, and their faces fair to look upon...Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day, and they were most like to the Gnomes; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift of understanding, long in memory." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of Men and Dwarves. Hador's folk are greater in strenth and stature than Elves (generic/average); the Folk of Haleth are related to the Hadorians; the Beorians are no greater in height than the Elves (again generic), they are compared with the Gnomes (who are only now starting to become Noldor), in terms of mental abilities, and certain physical skills NOT in terms of actual physical atributes (height or strength). ca. '51: "The men of Beor were dark or brown of hair, but fair of face, with grey eyes; of shaply form, having courage and endurance, yet they were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the children of Eru, ready in mind bold and steadfast. Yellowhaired they were for the most part...Like unto them were th woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high." WotJ, Grey Annals, 422. Here it speaks of the Beorians being no greater in stature than the Eldar (generic including the Sindar, Nandor and Noldor). It then goes on to say that the Noldor (in general) are as tall as men of great might and majesty (specific) of later days (the Numenoreans were men of great might and majesty of later days). The Hadorian are of yet greater strength and stature, but is this comparing them to the Noldor? I think not. As with the other writings it is comparing them with the Beorians. The Noldor are distinguished by being as tall as later men of strength and majesty (such as Numenoreans are). The Halethians are still related to the Hadorians. ca. '58: "Many of [Hador's] people were like him golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift." WotJ, Later Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 14, Of the Coming of Men. Now it becomes clear that the height and strength comparison is between the Hadorians and Beorians (or if not it was dropped). Again the Beorians are generally less in stature and strength than the Hadorians, but note here they are 'lithe and lean in body'. The comparison btween the Noldor and Beorians is again not physical attributes, but skills of mind and body. The Folk of Haleth are now being related to the Beorians. ca. '68: "For the most part [the Folk of Hador] were a tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair though all were fair skinned... There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. In association with the Eldar... they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow... But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men. Note that any physical comparison has vis a vis Elves and Men is dropped. The Hadorians are taller (and swifter) than other men (no mention of strength), both the Hadorians and Beorians are enhanced by association with the Eldar. But the differences are becoming less because of intermarriage (so the Hadorians are becoming smaller, dark hair more prominent). Note also the slight changes to skin, hair and eye colour. The Beorians are also no longer described as 'lithe and lean' but 'broader and heavier' (one of the footnotes has Beren (a Beorian) as 'broad shouldered and very strong of limb'. From '77: [Hador's] people were of great strength, stature ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and laughter, mighty among the Children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. Yellow haired for the most part and blue-eyed... The Men of [Beor's] house were dark or brown of hair with grey eyes; and of all Men they were most like to the Noldor... for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than laughter. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth but they were of lesser stature, and less eager for lore." From the published Silmarillion (as edited by CT) Chapter 17, Of the Coming of Men. Provided so that you can see some of the changes CT made to JRRT's writings and how he edited together various passages from different times to put together the published Silmarillion. We can do something Similar for the Numenoreans. ca. 36?: "For in Numenore a great people arose, in all things more like the First Kindred than other races of Men that have been, yet less fair and wise than they, though greater in body." LR, Fall of Numenor (first version). ca. 36? and 40?: "...the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were taller than even the tallest sons of Men in Middle-Earth." (Second Version (LR) and Third Version (SD)). So these three versions have the Numenoreans being taller than the Elves (again a generic average) but do not say they are stronger. ca. '46: "And the Numenoreans grew wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of men that have been." SD, Drowning of Anadune (original, 2nd version lacks 'mightiest of men'). ca. '48?: "...in Numenor the Eruhildi became wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of Men...". (3rd Version). The later versions now drop the Numenoreans as being taller than the Eldar. But they are the mightiest of Men. ca. 51: "Therefore the grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest sons of Middle-earth..." Akallabeth, Pub Sil. and PoME, History of the Akallabeth. That the Numenoreans were greater in stature than the Eldar remains DROPPED in the final version. However they are taller than any Men of Middle-earth. ca. '68: "They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal hieght of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent, which appears to have been about 7 of our feet." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men. Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: 10 Nov 2001 15:19:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shdb7$13acbl$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.0.244.67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005434349 13948 127.0.0.1 (10 Nov 2001 23:19:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2001 23:19:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57737 Robert Brady wrote in message news:... > Some quick references from Unfinished Tales. > > "Numenorean Linear Measures" > > "An average height [for a Numenorean] of six feet four inches..." > aka "two ragna" or "man-high" > > "Elendil was said to be more than man-high by nearly half a ragna, but > he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the > Downfall" > > That makes Elendil nearly 7 feet. > That makes Elendil nearly 8 feet (6'4" plus another 19 inches). Tar-Elenion ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:16:19 -0500 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbG3bSwA2FCJmKuNJVJEfPzXS7/+FvfI1936egaCsuQe3OuQFxo3iPk X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 01:21:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.158.233.21.MISMATCH!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57607 Russ made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > In article , James writes: > >I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of > >their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > Russ Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFt/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elberet ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Nov 2001 01:47:35 GMT References: <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: <20011110204735.24389.00002314@mb-cl.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57654 >> I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual >> perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > >I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) I'm 5'2.5, but I'm still growing. Nyah. ...here's a fun thing to do if you're shorter than most: Whenever talking with someone, stare straight ahead, at their chin, or lips or wherever, forcing them to either bend down to make eye contact with you or continue to talk to your hair. Works quite well, actually. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 17:52:40 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <20011110204735.24389.00002314@mb-cl.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c1.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57696 In article <20011110204735.24389.00002314@mb-cl.aol.com>, mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) wrote: >>> I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual >>> perfection. After all, I am 6'5". >> >>I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > >I'm 5'2.5, but I'm still growing. Nyah. > >...here's a fun thing to do if you're shorter than most: so due to the accident of genetics you think its funny to exploit other peoples attempts at politeness and civility > >Whenever talking with someone, stare straight ahead, at their chin, or lips or >wherever, forcing them to either bend down to make eye contact with you or >continue to talk to your hair. Works quite well, actually. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:33:29 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <20011110204735.24389.00002314@mb-cl.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005446043 27327 192.168.30.113 (11 Nov 2001 02:34:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 02:34:03 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57668 In article <20011110204735.24389.00002314@mb-cl.aol.com>, MrHobbit9 says... > >> I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > >> perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > > >I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > > I'm 5'2.5, but I'm still growing. Nyah. > > ...here's a fun thing to do if you're shorter than most: > > Whenever talking with someone, stare straight ahead, at their chin, or lips or > wherever, forcing them to either bend down to make eye contact with you or > continue to talk to your hair. Works quite well, actually. Yeah, especially when they then ignore you because they too are looking straight ahead and can't see you. -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### Lines: 33 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: iseultnel@aol.comnospam (Iseultnel) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Nov 2001 02:59:30 GMT References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57656 Mark Wrote: >Raven wrote: > >> "Russ" skrev i en meddelelse >> news:20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com... >> >> > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual >> > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". >> Bloody hell. I feel a midget at measly 6' straight. >> >> Marghvran. > > I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". I have died and gone to heaven. Or would that be The Undying Lands? I am 5'10" and female. And I can tell you that there are NOT enought tall men in the world! Teri Pope Historian-Researcher-Adventuress *********************** "I want honor, glory and adventure. All I get is a paycheck." --Me Rosaleen Kathleen Elam (Once and future Washerwoman) Teri Pope Historian-Researcher-Adventuress "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." -Wayne Gretzsky "Its what you learn after you know it all that counts." -Jimmy Williams ###### Reply-To: "TradeSurplus" From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.67.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1005450229 ST000 64.252.67.190 (Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:43:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:43:49 CST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: O@XMR]GDTRUSP_PXKBNXKQ@@AZJTB_LILIXNMVMHQYUJUZ]CCVWCPG[YMDXZH^[K[FFQZHBM@FX\NJOCW^TGNQLFRFU_HSDIHX[FCUWCXLP@PBL\BKFXXVGCM\CCKFVL_T[GJLBM@Q^]WKGS]T]M^NG_YKYVGV_IJYXS@MCBT[@JPRXECDFZMSXG]NVQQTJL Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 03:43:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57610 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message > I believe that the anglo-saxons (english) did think of the 'elf' as man > size, similar to the celtic 'tuatha e dannan' Are you sure you're getting the name right here? I've always heard the people of the fourth invasion referred to as "Tuatha De Dannan". Any of the Irish on this group want to clear up the presence or absence of the 'D' in (D)e? > The saxons of course are also originally of nordic origin When did this happen? I thought the Saxons came from Saxony, the flat and boring middle part of Germany. Are you saying they were really just Weejuns and such, who were so ashamed of their ancestry that they told everyone else they came from central Europe? Who could blame them really :-) Trade. ###### From: "Norseman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <344d05f8a730a0452084a1c9b9eff577.25386@mygate.mailgate.org> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.172.15.115 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 10:30:23 MET Organization: Nextra Public Access X-Trace: readme.online.no 1005471023 146.172.15.115 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 10:30:28 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news1.oke.nextra.no.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57688 "Noora " skrev i melding news:344d05f8a730a0452084a1c9b9eff577.25386@mygate.mailgate.org... > > Definitely not in Norse mythology, in fact elf (alv) is rarely used as a > > distinction. Where it is used, it's almost always in reference to dwarfish > > underground creatures. I've never read of man sized or taller elves in Norse > > mythology, though I'm sure there may be exceptions that I've missed. > > I've got some very vague background knowledge of Norse mythology but I did a > quick search in evreka nevertheless... > the site i found doesn't say what the Norse elves looked like, but they're > certainly not the same as dwarfs, since there is Alfheim, the home of elves > that's ruled by Freya, the goddess of fertility. Svartalfheim is the home or > dark elves who are also called dwarfs. > > Freya isn't an Asa but a Van ('vaani' in Finnish, I'm not sure about the > translitterisation), of another family of gods. I've got a funny feeling > she'd be blonde but I'm not sure. this _might_ imply the Norse elves are > blonde, too... certainly I don't imagine them as 'underground creatures'. Alfheim is ruled by Frey, not Freya. Frey is Freyas brother. There is no description of the "light elves" that I can find, but they are sometimes described as fair and kind, though very rarely so. The elves of Norse mythology are predominantly little people very often confused with dwarves, they live underground where they smith objects of gold for the gods. Those are the elves of Norse mythology and folklore. I can find no description of the light elves that live in Alfheim with Frey, except that some places they are described as heavenly creatures. Tolkien's elves may have been influenced by an image of these, but not by the traditional elf of the Norse for sure. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:15:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1005480959 12.79.22.187 (Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:15:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:15:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57648 "Iseultnel" wrote in message news:20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com... > I have died and gone to heaven. Or would that be The Undying > Lands? I am 5'10" and female. And I can tell you that there > are NOT enought tall men in the world! Just about every tall woman I have ever known has said that. Some of my friends have been downright indignant when I dated a woman less than 5'7" tall. :) ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:26:49 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9slu76$r5r$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-35-50.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57701 "James" wrote in message news:mnduut0od75mhree86nm7g7an2vtr377en@4ax.com... > The Saxons, like the Angles (and, thus, the Anglo-Saxons) are of > Germanic origin. > James SO? They are still Nordic and thus related to the Norse. If you had bothered to look a little further back than their germanic settlements you would notice that the Germanic tribes moved down their from northern europe. All the northern european races ie Norse, Germanic, etc are related with the same gods similar culture etc. Thats what Hitler was on about, getting back to the nordic ancesty. Of course his concept that the Nordic races were of 'higher' origin was bollocks but thats adolf for you. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:29:54 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9slucv$q2g$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-35-50.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:29:40 GMT (newsr2.u-net.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!newsr2.u-net.net!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57691 "TradeSurplus" wrote in message news:VtmH7.2784$lY5.2074544@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com... > "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message > > I believe that the anglo-saxons (english) did think of the 'elf' as man > > size, similar to the celtic 'tuatha e dannan' > > Are you sure you're getting the name right here? I've always heard the > people of the fourth invasion referred to as "Tuatha De Dannan". Any of the > Irish on this group want to clear up the presence or absence of the 'D' in > (D)e? > > > The saxons of course are also originally of nordic origin > > When did this happen? I thought the Saxons came from Saxony, the flat and > boring middle part of Germany. Are you saying they were really just Weejuns > and such, who were so ashamed of their ancestry that they told everyone else > they came from central Europe? Who could blame them really :-) > > Trade. This is a common problem when people dont trace back far enough. Yes, the Saxons/ angles etc came from Germany, but the German tribes moved down there from Northern Europe, the norse and Germans and other North European cultures are all linked. Thats why they have the same gods, ie Odin - Wotan etc. your right though about the 'Tuatha De Dannan', ok so I spelt it wrong! Douglas ###### From: Peter Gray Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:19:11 -0000 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shdb7$13acbl$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-859.clefairy.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1005488431 10387 217.135.92.91 (11 Nov 2001 14:20:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 14:20:31 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57725 In article , rwb197@zepler.org says... > > Some quick references from Unfinished Tales. > > "Numenorean Linear Measures" > > "An average height [for a Numenorean] of six feet four inches..." > aka "two ragna" or "man-high" > > "Elendil was said to be more than man-high by nearly half a ragna, but > he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the > Downfall" > > That makes Elendil nearly 7 feet. > > "Galadriel, 'the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell', > was said to be man-high", six-foot-four. > > And from Shaping of Middle Earth (OK, I know this is really early stuff): "Men from the first though slightly bigger were more frail..." (Chapter II, Sketch of the mythology, section 7) -- Pete Gray Dunbar Scotland ###### From: Peter Gray Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:19:12 -0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-859.clefairy.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1005488436 10387 217.135.92.91 (11 Nov 2001 14:20:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 14:20:36 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57719 In article , donald_shepherd@spamnot.hotmail.com says... > In article <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com>, Russ > says... > > In article , James writes: > > > > >I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of > > >their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. > > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > I'll agree with that. > I agree too. But it is of course an inverse relationship. -- Pete Gray Dunbar Scotland ###### From: Nils Gustaf Lindgren Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:22:14 +0100 Organization: Dr Chips AB Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3BEE8995.7370D4E4@drchips.se> References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> Reply-To: nils.lindgren@drchips.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu197-197.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: green.tninet.se 1005488879 18903 195.163.197.197 (11 Nov 2001 14:27:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:27:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!news2.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57628 > I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". > > Short people got... no reason... : ) Just kidding. Where do you find shoes? OK - donīt tell me - on the feet, right? Nils Gustaf (6'6") shrink hacler ealdar enten geweorc ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Nov 2001 18:15:39 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: <20011111131539.17287.00002558@mb-co.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!europa.netcrusader.net!usenetserver.com!208.184.7.66!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57658 >so due to the accident of genetics >you think its funny to exploit >other peoples attempts at politeness and civility Can't take a joke? ###### From: James Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.43 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1005464810 210.80.135.43 (Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:46:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:46:50 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:47:09 -0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57745 Douglas Eckhart : > >"James" wrote in message >news:df5put06kclb8kkneg4hjgba4f9njt7ca1@4ax.com... >> Douglas Eckhart : >> >The Celts >> >refer to the 'Aryan' type as the 'Tuatha e dannan'. >> >> That's all well and good, but what does this have to do with elves? As >> far as I know, Tolkien was the first to use "elf" to refer to a >> man-sized or taller creature, and this usage was adapted and >> exaggerated to the point of parody by D&D and suchlike. If you can >> find an earlier author or mythological reference which makes connects >> the term to the ME-style creatures, I'd be fascinated to hear it! >> >> As far as I know, Norse mythology had the terms "Elf" and "Dwarf" as >> synonymous (as shown in the names for Dwarves in the Voluspa, which >> include Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, During, Wand-elf and Wind-elf). >> >> James > >I believe that the anglo-saxons (english) did think of the 'elf' as man >size, similar to the celtic 'tuatha e dannan' Out of interest, why do you believe this? >Would saxon kings try to claim lineage from a diminutive 'trollish' ugly >little creature? where's the glory in that? Elves/Dwarves/other little-people-type-characters are almost always thought to have something going for them. They're usually magic, or rich, or skilled artisans, or something similar. Elves were, as I understand, particularly associated with being very wise, or even, in some cases, all-knowing - hence the names Alfred ("Elf-Counsel") and Alvin (Alfwin - "Elf-friend"). Being linked to or descended from an Elf would be probably considered a sign of wisdom. Where do you get this "trollish ugly" idea from? >The saxons of course are also originally of nordic origin but their >mythology has developed to be slightly different from their norse cousans. The Saxons, like the Angles (and, thus, the Anglo-Saxons) are of Germanic origin. >So perhaps the saxon vision of 'elfs' is different from the Norse. and this >accounts for the other variety of elf creatures. This is all getting very confusing for me. I can't even remember what I'm claiming any more. I should probably give up before I embarrass myself. James ###### From: James Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: <82euutot3b2c5js4mi7hqc5s8fa6qp99m7@4ax.com> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <344d05f8a730a0452084a1c9b9eff577.25386@mygate.mailgate.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.43 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1005465131 210.80.135.43 (Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:52:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:52:11 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:52:31 -0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57726 Noora : >> Definitely not in Norse mythology, in fact elf (alv) is rarely used as a >> distinction. Where it is used, it's almost always in reference to dwarfish >> underground creatures. I've never read of man sized or taller elves in Norse >> mythology, though I'm sure there may be exceptions that I've missed. > >I've got some very vague background knowledge of Norse mythology but I did a >quick search in evreka nevertheless... >the site i found doesn't say what the Norse elves looked like, but they're >certainly not the same as dwarfs, since there is Alfheim, the home of elves >that's ruled by Freya, the goddess of fertility. Svartalfheim is the home or >dark elves who are also called dwarfs. Western European mythology (like any conglomeration of tribal beliefs) is very confused and vague in its definitions and concepts - who is whose brother and suchlike. I honestly think that, to them, the ideas of elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc were just as vague and overlapped just as much as they are and do today. >Freya isn't an Asa but a Van ('vaani' in Finnish, I'm not sure about the >translitterisation), of another family of gods. From memory, the Van (or maybe the Asa) are the gods of a later group of settlers in the area, who invaded and suppressed the pre-existing culture and religion, including the Asa (or maybe the Van). This is remembered, funnily enough, in the resulting mythology as the Van (or maybe the Asa) invading the home of the Asa (or maybe the Van) and taking their place, relegating them to a more minor position. The only [whichever - the pre-existing and later less powerful gods] I can remember by name is Tir/Tiw, the god of victory. Oddly, the two religions were very closely related, so there's a significant overlap in the old/new gods. I think this is why Frigg and Freya - with very similar natures and names - coexist in the same religion. >'ve got a funny feeling >she'd be blonde but I'm not sure. this _might_ imply the Norse elves are >blonde, too... certainly I don't imagine them as 'underground creatures'. No, you're just thinking of Norse *people*. :) James ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:19:22 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1005511808 195.82.196.135 (Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:50:08 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:50:08 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57800 "Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse news:3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com... > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and > > spiritual perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high heels don't count. Gavran. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:47:08 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57868 On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:15:59 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"Iseultnel" wrote in message >news:20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com... > >> I have died and gone to heaven. Or would that be The Undying >> Lands? I am 5'10" and female. And I can tell you that there >> are NOT enought tall men in the world! > >Just about every tall woman I have ever known has said that. Some of >my friends have been downright indignant when I dated a woman less >than 5'7" tall. :) > Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart body. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Mary Gardiner Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> Reply-To: usenet@puzzling.org Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (Linux) Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:38:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.140.100 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1005518319 144.132.140.100 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:38:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:38:39 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57813 In article <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com>, the softrat wrote: > Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a > tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones > seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff > dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) Could be cos you asked for a "tumble" -- tall women have a long way to fall you know... -Mary (6'4", lurker) -- Mary Gardiner ###### From: "DragnFlye" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:42:59 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9smute0l66@enews3.newsguy.com> References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> Reply-To: "DragnFlye" NNTP-Posting-Host: p-844.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57805 "the softrat" wrote in message news:8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com... > Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a > tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones > seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff > dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) Thank you for recognizing us women under 5'8". DragnFlye, 5'5" and very fun ;) ###### Message-ID: <3BEF080A.77972B44@ou.edu> From: Katherine Tredwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:21:47 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.15.167.69 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ou.edu X-Trace: news.ou.edu 1005520936 129.15.167.69 (Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:22:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:22:16 CST Organization: The University of Oklahoma Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!leto.ou.edu!news.ou.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57855 Raven wrote: > "Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse > news:3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com... > > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and > > > spiritual perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high > heels don't count. I'm an inch shorter than Ermanna :-( what's my excuse? Katherine Tredwell ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:08:05 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEF080A.77972B44@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005523722 15121 192.168.30.113 (12 Nov 2001 00:08:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 00:08:42 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57827 In article <3BEF080A.77972B44@ou.edu>, Katherine Tredwell says... > Raven wrote: > > > "Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse > > news:3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com... > > > > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and > > > > spiritual perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > > I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high > > heels don't count. > > I'm an inch shorter than Ermanna :-( what's my excuse? You don't need them. Just bite them on the kneecap. -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:25:15 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005524753 15121 192.168.30.113 (12 Nov 2001 00:25:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 00:25:53 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57821 In article , Peter Gray says... > In article , > donald_shepherd@spamnot.hotmail.com says... > > In article <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com>, Russ > > says... > > > In article , James writes: > > > > > > >I always figured Tolkien's Elves were taller than humans because of > > > >their general tendency to be physically and spiritually perfect. > > > > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and spiritual > > > perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > > > I'll agree with that. > > > I agree too. But it is of course an inverse relationship. Now that would make some of these complainers happy :). -- Donald Shepherd "Nothing needs reforming so much as other people's habits." - Mark Twain ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:10:34 -0500 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com> References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <3BEE8995.7370D4E4@drchips.se> Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbuTaQPvDpCWYtMG8ZeNVauJUdVPipAGt1lwr2JbMqauYsOxUvw40Fa X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 01:15:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57764 Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote: > > I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". > > > > Short people got... no reason... : ) Just kidding. > > Where do you find shoes? > > OK - donīt tell me - on the feet, right? > > Nils Gustaf (6'6") You're all a bunch of shrimps! -- -- FotW (7' 2") On the Internet, no one knows how tall you REALLY are. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:17:00 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <3BEE8995.7370D4E4@drchips.se> <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005527859 30620 192.168.30.113 (12 Nov 2001 01:17:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 01:17:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57815 In article <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com>, Flame of the West says... > > Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote: > > > > I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". > > > > > > Short people got... no reason... : ) Just kidding. > > > > Where do you find shoes? > > > > OK - donīt tell me - on the feet, right? > > > > Nils Gustaf (6'6") > > You're all a bunch of shrimps! 8'0" Oh, you're talking about _height_. 14'5" -- Donald 'Elendil' Shepherd "Nothing needs reforming so much as other people's habits." - Mark Twain From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:17:00 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <3BEE8995.7370D4E4@drchips.se> <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005527859 30620 192.168.30.113 (12 Nov 2001 01:17:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 01:17:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57815 In article <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com>, Flame of the West says... > > Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote: > > > > I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". > > > > > > Short people got... no reason... : ) Just kidding. > > > > Where do you find shoes? > > > > OK - donīt tell me - on the feet, right? > > > > Nils Gustaf (6'6") > > You're all a bunch of shrimps! 8'0" Oh, you're talking about _height_. 14'5" -- Donald 'Elendil' Shepherd "Nothing needs reforming so much as other people's habits." - Mark Twain ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:33:24 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57865 On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:38:39 GMT, Mary Gardiner wrote: >In article <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com>, the softrat wrote: >> Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a >> tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones >> seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff >> dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) > >Could be cos you asked for a "tumble" -- tall women have a long way to >fall you know... > >-Mary (6'4", lurker) > I'm not *that* obvious! Usually I asked them if they would like dinner or a drink depending on the venue. Sometimes I just asked them if I could buy them a cuppa. Of course my heavy breathing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hasthma might have turned them off. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Hex dump: Where witches put used curses... ###### From: Tiffany Case Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:47:38 -0600 Organization: none Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3BEF5469.9D3B6FBF@yahoo.com> References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <3BEE8995.7370D4E4@drchips.se> <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com> Reply-To: person53705@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ras-c5800-3-219-92.dialup.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.doit.wisc.edu 1005540458 26402 128.104.219.92 (12 Nov 2001 04:47:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@doit.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 04:47:38 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57777 Flame of the West wrote: > Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote: > > > > I'm 6'6", and get to pick on my older brothers who are 6'1" and 6'3". > > > > > > Short people got... no reason... : ) Just kidding. > > > > Where do you find shoes? > > > > OK - donīt tell me - on the feet, right? > > > > Nils Gustaf (6'6") > > You're all a bunch of shrimps! To heck with all of you guys. -TC (5'2") (But oh what those five feet can do...) ###### From: kurgan@modeemi.fi (Jouni Karhu) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:22:18 GMT Organization: Legion of Immortals Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3bef5bfd.1043099@news.cc.tut.fi> References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a7b.mtalo.ton.tut.fi X-Trace: news.cc.tut.fi 1005542426 15080 193.166.88.49 (12 Nov 2001 05:20:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:20:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57796 On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:33:24 -0800, the softrat wrote: >On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:38:39 GMT, Mary Gardiner >wrote: >>In article <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com>, the softrat wrote: >>> Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a >>> tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones >>> seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff >>> dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) >> >>Could be cos you asked for a "tumble" -- tall women have a long way to >>fall you know... >> >>-Mary (6'4", lurker) >> >I'm not *that* obvious! Usually I asked them if they would like dinner >or a drink depending on the venue. Sometimes I just asked them if I >could buy them a cuppa. > >Of course my heavy >breathing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hasthma might have >turned them off. You should occasionally come up for oxygen while dancing with those Tall Ladies of Infinite Beauty (too early in the morning to try to come up with a clever acronym). Helps the breathing, you know? Apropos, you wouldn't happen to be a Miles Vorkosigan fan? He also had a taste for mountaineering, so to speak. // JJ - no, I'm not telling how shor^H^H^H^Htall I am. ###### Reply-To: "Kore Melanaegis" From: "Kore Melanaegis" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> <9smute0l66@enews3.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.154.130.85 Message-ID: <3bef7df0@news.actrix.gen.nz> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:32:36 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.16.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1005546585 203.96.16.33 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:29:45 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:29:45 NZDT Organization: TelstraSaturn Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news02.tsnz.net!news.actrix.gen.nz!202.154.130.85 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57794 "DragnFlye" wrote in message news:9smute0l66@enews3.newsguy.com... > > "the softrat" wrote in message > news:8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com... > > Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a > > tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones > > seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff > > dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) > > Thank you for recognizing us women under 5'8". I'll second that Kore 5'2" > > DragnFlye, 5'5" and very fun ;) > > ###### From: tbarrie@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org (Trevor Barrie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:49:11 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Giant ants are cool Lines: 7 Message-ID: <9so5un$aqp$1@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org> References: <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <20011110204735.24389.00002314@mb-cl.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user1-76.gradstudents.utoronto.ca (142.150.176.76) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1005559145 37235465 142.150.176.76 (16 [90758]) X-Orig-Path: unknown!not-for-mail Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!user1-76.gradstudents.utoronto.CA!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57838 In article , morgan mair fheal wrote: >so due to the accident of genetics >you think its funny to exploit >other peoples attempts at politeness and civility If that's a haiku, I think you got the number of syllables wrong. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:17:32 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9soeh9$70d$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9slu76$r5r$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-133-147.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57837 "James" wrote in message news:stt0vt0jd9rmm1hpb0ja4s7fjorve1sqee@4ax.com... > Douglas Eckhart wrote: > >Thats what Hitler was on about, getting back to the nordic ancesty. Of > >course his concept that the Nordic races were of 'higher' origin was > >bollocks but thats adolf for you. > I must say this is of limited relevance to whether or not traditional > elves are tall. ;) > > James True.... True... Douglas ###### From: "Elisabeth B. Zakes" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:18:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.68.129.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 1005567511 66.68.129.24 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:18:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:18:31 CST Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57833 You know, folks looked at me funny when I started dating a man who is 73.5 inches tall when I'm 60.5 inches tall. But I rather like the feeling that when he hugs me I can snuggle my head up under his chin and hear his heart beating just for me. :) We've been together for 21 years now. Elisabeth B. Zakes Round Rock, TX > Although I always thought it would be lots of fun, I never could get a > tall woman to give me a tumble. (I'm just 6 feet.) All the fun ones > seem to be under 5' 8". (And some of those tall women were the stuff > dreams are made of, not just acromegalic geeks.) > > > the softrat "He who rubs owls" ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:23:22 -0500 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com> References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaC5PnhRloFx2QuaMsHtHiDnwxGvyxh2dwqbrKNfv6QAryiqxQuN4hj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:13:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57774 Raven made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > "Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse > news:3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com... > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and > > > spiritual perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high > heels don't count. I doubt I'll grow taller much anymore. > Gavran. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: James Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Message-ID: References: <9sghof$c7k$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9shsvd$4ju$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <9sj4um$o5q$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <9slu76$r5r$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.80.135.114 X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1005546694 210.80.135.114 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:31:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:31:34 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:31:47 -0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57870 Douglas Eckhart : >"James" wrote in message >news:mnduut0od75mhree86nm7g7an2vtr377en@4ax.com... >> The Saxons, like the Angles (and, thus, the Anglo-Saxons) are of >> Germanic origin. >> James > >SO? They are still Nordic and thus related to the Norse. >If you had bothered to look a little further back than their germanic >settlements you would notice that the Germanic tribes moved down their from >northern europe. All the northern european races ie Norse, Germanic, etc are >related with the same gods similar culture etc. Yes, although (as far as I know), they are still counted as mutually exclusive groups. >Thats what Hitler was on about, getting back to the nordic ancesty. Of >course his concept that the Nordic races were of 'higher' origin was >bollocks but thats adolf for you. I must say this is of limited relevance to whether or not traditional elves are tall. ;) James ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Mary Gardiner Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears References: <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <20011110215930.18338.00002255@mb-mh.aol.com> <3_tH7.182123$W8.6308678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8ootut4c9jmrat1qs2vusds33uknehq89c@4ax.com> Reply-To: usenet@puzzling.org Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (Linux) Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:17:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.140.100 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1005596226 144.132.140.100 (Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:17:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:17:06 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57996 In article , the softrat wrote: > Of course my heavy > breathing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hasthma might have > turned them off. Maybe, but you'd think tall women, having ears further away, would be less likely to hear it. It must remain inexplicable. -Mary. -- Mary Gardiner ###### Reply-To: "mealsormissles" From: "mealsormissles" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BED4601.DCC3263@vegacom.on.ca> <3BEE8995.7370D4E4@drchips.se> <3BEF2187.86842AEC@erols.com> <3BEF5469.9D3B6FBF@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:55:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.197.58.187 X-Complaints-To: business-support@verizon.com X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 1005598537 151.197.58.187 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:55:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:55:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58039 Care to elaborate Tiffany?? :-) "Tiffany Case" wrote in message news:3BEF5469.9D3B6FBF@yahoo.com... > > To heck with all of you guys. > > -TC (5'2") > > (But oh what those five feet can do...) > > ###### Message-ID: <3BF03A6D.6ECE1A8D@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEF080A.77972B44@ou.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.135.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1005599468 ST000 64.198.135.113 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:11:08 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:11:08 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSU[@I_AOX_WQB\\IKC@LDTDEZXXPGLLEXRZKB]MPXH@ETUCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:11:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57911 Katherine Tredwell wrote: > > Raven wrote: > > > "Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse > > news:3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com... > > > > > > I certain;y doo agree that height is a sign of physical and > > > > spiritual perfection. After all, I am 6'5". > > > I resent that. I'm 5'4.5". :-) > > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high > > heels don't count. > > I'm an inch shorter than Ermanna :-( what's my excuse? > > Katherine Tredwell And do you, by any chance, have a beard? >-/ grimgard ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:50:19 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.171 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1005602002 195.82.196.171 (Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:53:22 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:53:22 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57942 "Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse news:3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com... > > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high > > heels don't count. > I doubt I'll grow taller much anymore. Then you must, like Pippin, grow wider. Mentioning which, it has been shown by researchers on this side of the pond that women with wide hips have longer life-span, all else alike, than women with narrow, boy-like hips. So eat up all the good food that your mom serves for you, there's a good girl. Havran. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:31:29 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c21.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58058 In article , "Raven" wrote: >"Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse >news:3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com... > >> > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high >> > heels don't count. >> I doubt I'll grow taller much anymore. > Then you must, like Pippin, grow wider. Mentioning which, it has cut the long bones and put on braces that keeps the bones aligned and lengthen the limb a small fraction each day ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:09:02 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3BF11B6F.D4488B31@erols.com> References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbsQzbDX6YRPio48i3dr1QYaIinIiUhtccqJz+un9KaLBR6rxUKE5Uo X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 2001 21:34:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57881 morgan mair fheal made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > In article , "Raven" > wrote: > >"Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse > >news:3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com... > >> > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high > >> > heels don't count. > >> I doubt I'll grow taller much anymore. > > Then you must, like Pippin, grow wider. Mentioning which, it has > > cut the long bones and put on braces that keeps the bones aligned and > lengthen the limb a small fraction each day Uh, that sounds painful. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com> Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:27:16 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1005683255 195.82.196.150 (Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:27:35 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:27:35 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57951 "morgan mair fheal" skrev i en meddelelse news:mair_fheal-1211011931290001@c21.ppp.tsoft.com... > >> I doubt I'll grow taller much anymore. > > Then you must, like Pippin, grow wider. Mentioning which, it has > cut the long bones and put on braces that keeps the bones aligned and > lengthen the limb a small fraction each day Prokrustes? Is that you? Korax. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish height - and rants about ears Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:30:52 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <20011109100841.12427.00001741@nso-cg.aol.com> <3BEDC34E.54FF2362@erols.com> <4wBH7.194$Jh2.5239@news.get2net.dk> <3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com> <3BF11B6F.D4488B31@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c28.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58060 In article <3BF11B6F.D4488B31@erols.com>, Ermanna@erols.com wrote: >morgan mair fheal made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: >> In article , "Raven" >> wrote: >> >"Ermanna" skrev i en meddelelse >> >news:3BEFCD49.D11807DD@erols.com... >> >> > Don't worry. You're still young, you'll mature. Mind you, high >> >> > heels don't count. >> >> I doubt I'll grow taller much anymore. >> > Then you must, like Pippin, grow wider. Mentioning which, it has >> >> cut the long bones and put on braces that keeps the bones aligned and >> lengthen the limb a small fraction each day > >Uh, that sounds painful. its a controversal treatment for dwarfism