From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Legolas question Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:46:41 -0800 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu X-Trace: siamese.noc.ucla.edu 1004644004 21862 169.232.140.227 (1 Nov 2001 19:46:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:46:44 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56651 Hi all, I've got a silly question, and I've glanced through the books but can't find the answer. Was Legolas blonde? I'm working on a project that I'll show you all soon, but I want to get the various characters hair color right. I can't tell if my mental picture of Legolas comes from the books or from the cartoon. And, no, I'm not going to make Borimor look like a viking. :) Bruce ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Legolas question Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.98.92 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1004648538 212.151.98.92 (Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:02:18 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:02:18 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-98-92.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:02:53 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56732 Bruce N. Hietbrink wrote: >Hi all, > >I've got a silly question, and I've glanced through the books but can't >find the answer. >Was Legolas blonde? I'm working on a project that I'll show you all soon, but >I want to get the various characters hair color right. I can't tell if my >mental picture >of Legolas comes from the books or from the cartoon. No, Legolas was a Sinda, and none of them were blond. Öjevind ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 02:48:46 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u140.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004662362 7118 62.103.251.140 (2 Nov 2001 00:52:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:52:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!feed.cgocable.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56706 Bruce N. Hietbrink wrote in message news:bnh-0111011146410001@houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu... > Hi all, > > I've got a silly question, and I've glanced through the books but can't > find the answer. > Was Legolas blonde? His father was blonde, so he has *atleast* 50% chance of him also being that. My advice would be to go with the greater odds and have him indeed be blonde. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Nov 2001 00:49:22 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20011101194922.01372.00000309@mb-bh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.fra.nextra.com!nextra.com!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56704 >No, Legolas was a Sinda, and none of them were blond. > >Öjevind > But of course Peter Jackson decides to make him blond and give him tacky mullets on the sides of his head... makes him look like a girly-elf, if you ask me. Pah. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:12:44 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <20011101194922.01372.00000309@mb-bh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u140.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004663800 10187 62.103.251.140 (2 Nov 2001 01:16:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:16:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56696 MrHobbit9 wrote in message news:20011101194922.01372.00000309@mb-bh.aol.com... > > But of course Peter Jackson decides to make him blond Good for Peter Jackson. He was more probably a blonde than dark-haired. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Nov 2001 01:33:53 GMT References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56702 >> But of course Peter Jackson decides to make him blond > >Good for Peter Jackson. He was more probably a blonde than dark-haired. > >Aris Katsaris Legolas was a Sinda... therefore he didn't have blond hair. None of the Sinda did. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:32:51 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p080.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004697383 23266 212.205.253.80 (2 Nov 2001 10:36:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:36:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56697 MrHobbit9 wrote in message news:20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com... > > Legolas was a Sinda... therefore he didn't have blond hair. None of the Sinda > did. Tolkien disagrees with you. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Noora " Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:40:51 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: y339a10.win.hut.fi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.mailgate.org 1004693735 19151 193.167.4.159 (Fri Nov 2 12:40:51 2001) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mailgate.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:40:51 +0000 (UTC) Injector-Info: news.mailgate.org; posting-host=y339a10.win.hut.fi; posting-account=25386; posting-date=1004693735 User-Agent: Mailgate Web Server X-URL: http://www.Mailgate.ORG Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.mailgate.org!web2news!y339a10.win.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56686 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > Bruce N. Hietbrink wrote in message > news:bnh-0111011146410001@houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu... > > Hi all, > > > > I've got a silly question, and I've glanced through the books but can't > > find the answer. > > Was Legolas blonde? > > His father was blonde, where says? in the Hobbit? > so he has *atleast* 50% chance of him also > being that. My advice would be to go with the greater odds and have > him indeed be blonde. and Legolas is NOT blonde. it says 'stars framing his dark head' (or something, quoting from memory), after the Fellowship leaves Lorien and is attacked by orcs at Sarn Gebir. Just before he shoots down the Nazgul's mount. So there. - Noora -- Posted from y339a10.win.hut.fi [193.167.4.159] via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004715227 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:33:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:33:47 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: v1zE7-21998-N4-4298@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 9d008f11 67e8c9cb 874bf15c b6b9b9c8 11b367fc Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:33:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56710 Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article : > Was Legolas blonde? You know, I can't recall the last time I saw this discussed, but I still have this vague feeling that it's one of the "classic" unanswered questions. As I recall, the major argument that he was blond is that Thranduil is (as described in the woodland feast in _The Hobbit_, I believe). The major argument against him being blond is that a substantial majority of Elves other than the Vanyar had dark hair (there are multiple references on this, I believe). There were exceptions to this, of course (Feanor's father-in-law had red hair, for example), and intermarriages between the Vanyar and others could lead to blond-haired Elves living among other groups. I don't recall seeing any real evidence beyond what I've cited above, at any rate. (But I'd be happy to hear some!) Steuard Jensen ###### Lines: 9 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Nov 2001 16:50:25 GMT References: <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011102115025.15609.00000952@mb-me.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56806 >> Legolas was a Sinda... therefore he didn't have blond hair. None of the >Sinda >> did. > >Tolkien disagrees with you. > >Aris Katsaris Oje said he was :-\ ###### From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:11:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.88.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004724681 63.14.88.221 (Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:11:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:11:21 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56898 On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:33:47 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) in article >: >> Was Legolas blonde? > >You know, I can't recall the last time I saw this discussed, but I >still have this vague feeling that it's one of the "classic" >unanswered questions. As I recall, the major argument that he was >blond is that Thranduil is (as described in the woodland feast in _The >Hobbit_, I believe). The major argument against him being blond is >that a substantial majority of Elves other than the Vanyar had dark >hair (there are multiple references on this, I believe). There were >exceptions to this, of course (Feanor's father-in-law had red hair, >for example), and intermarriages between the Vanyar and others could >lead to blond-haired Elves living among other groups. I don't recall >seeing any real evidence beyond what I've cited above, at any rate. >(But I'd be happy to hear some!) > Steuard Jensen I just checked The Hobbit and could not find a single reference to Thrainduil's hair being blond. Can you be more specific? I also checked all of the physical descriptions of Legolas in LOTR and, alas, could not find a description of his hair color. I don't recall all the details of Thrainduil's lineage, but I think we must rule out intermarriage with the Vanyar or Noldor. Mnkohrz ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004727855 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:04:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:04:15 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: P6CE7-23770-N4-5692@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: a8aa4a28 a9cc6292 bdfd86fe 82a682ab 281fc0ba Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:04:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56805 Quoth Michael Kohrs in article : > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink): > >> Was Legolas blonde? > >As I recall, the major argument that he was blond is that Thranduil > >is (as described in the woodland feast in _The Hobbit_, I believe). > I just checked The Hobbit and could not find a single reference to > Thrainduil's hair being blond. Can you be more specific? I don't have the books with me here at work, but fortunately I _do_ have Google's Groups archive, and David Salo once had the books handy: ---- In message dsalo-ya02408000R1801981217000001@news.doit.wisc.edu, David Salo said: ---- | This is a very reasonable and obvious argument; unfortunately, in | The Hobbit, the Elvenking (Thranduil, Legolas' father) is specified | as having had _golden_ hair ("Flies and Spiders": 'The feast that | they now saw was greater and more magnificent than before; and at | the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown | of leaves upon his golden hair...') So, there you go. :) > I don't recall all the details of Thrainduil's lineage, but I think > we must rule out intermarriage with the Vanyar or Noldor. Er, why? To be specific, why not at least consider the possibility that the three tribes intermarried a little while they all lived near Cuivienen? I'd suggest that Thranduil's "golden" hair presents at least one good reason to think that they did... :) Steuard Jensen ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Nov 2001 19:25:33 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011102142533.02838.00001056@mb-mu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56813 This was on a site devoted to Legolas Greenleaf... is this describing Thranduil or Legolas himself? -Start [...] at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair. ~ The Hobbit, Chapter VIII: Flies and Spiders -End ###### From: mattias.thuresson@mbox300.swipnet.se (Mattias) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: 2 Nov 2001 12:15:24 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.135.47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1004732124 11344 127.0.0.1 (2 Nov 2001 20:15:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 2001 20:15:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56904 "Noora " wrote in message news:... > and Legolas is NOT blonde. it says 'stars framing his dark head' The attack takes place at night, so I wouldn't regard that quote as conclusive evidence on the colour of his hair. Mattias ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Nov 2001 21:29:49 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56830 In article , mattias.thuresson@mbox300.swipnet.se (Mattias) writes: >"Noora " wrote in message >news:... >> and Legolas is NOT blonde. it says 'stars framing his dark head' > >The attack takes place at night, so I wouldn't regard that quote as >conclusive evidence on the colour of his hair. > Anymore than it should be evidence of the color of the skin on his "dark head." Russ ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9rsffa$vqvrp$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: Legolas question Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.86.77 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1004739598 212.151.86.77 (Fri, 02 Nov 2001 23:19:58 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 23:19:58 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-86-77.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:20:35 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56866 Andrew Wells wrote: >Öjevind Lång wrote in message >news:uLiE7.1770$y02.5982@nntpserver.swip.net... >> No, Legolas was a Sinda, and none of them were blond. > >Reference, please, Öjevind? The Elves were darkhaired and grey-eyed; the only blond Elves were the Vanyar and that particular branch of the Noldor that was called "the golden house of Finwe". I belive this is expressly stated somewhere in the Appendices, but I can't remember where or find it. Perhaps someone else in the group can help with references? Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Legolas question Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.86.77 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1004740447 212.151.86.77 (Fri, 02 Nov 2001 23:34:07 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 23:34:07 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-86-77.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:34:44 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56870 Steuard Jensen wrote: [snip] > >| This is a very reasonable and obvious argument; unfortunately, in >| The Hobbit, the Elvenking (Thranduil, Legolas' father) is specified >| as having had _golden_ hair ("Flies and Spiders": 'The feast that >| they now saw was greater and more magnificent than before; and at >| the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown >| of leaves upon his golden hair...') > >So, there you go. :) Not really. I'd say this is one of the many cases when Tolkien wrote something in "The Hobbit", a children's book, that did not really mesh with his fully conceived creation. It *is* stated somewhere (in the Appendices?) that the only blond Elves were the Vanyar and some Noldor. Legolas was a Sinda. Therefore Legolas did not have blond hair, and the Dwarves were probably hallucinating because of starvation or dreaming, or Bilbo embroidered a little on the story when he told it later. Any story-internal explanation you prefer. Speculating that "the three tribes intermarried a little while they all lived near Cuivienen" makes sense in the real world, but as you know, that is not how Tolkien's world functions. Besides, like someone else posting to this thread I have a very strong feeling that Legolas' dark hair is mentioned somewhere in LotR; I'll keep an eye open for it the next time I read the book. Öjevind ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 17:46:25 -0500 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3BE32236.E02F293F@erols.com> References: <9rsffa$vqvrp$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYoWuA3niwrpdggdOHaYVuNYw6xIE7i+vYaq94eLJoYU95i2FMz9guT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2001 00:19:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56773 Öjevind Lång made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Andrew Wells wrote: > >Öjevind Lång wrote in message > >news:uLiE7.1770$y02.5982@nntpserver.swip.net... > >> No, Legolas was a Sinda, and none of them were blond. > > > >Reference, please, Öjevind? > > The Elves were darkhaired and grey-eyed; the only blond Elves were the > Vanyar and that particular branch of the Noldor that was called "the golden > house of Finwe". "... and at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair..." Flies and Spiders, The Hobbit. Of course, The Hobbit was originally a separate stories. > Öjevind Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:37:27 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9rvaug$fgv$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rsffa$vqvrp$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u139.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004744465 15903 62.103.251.139 (2 Nov 2001 23:41:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:41:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56815 Öjevind Lång wrote in message news:i_EE7.1924$y02.6359@nntpserver.swip.net... > > The Elves were darkhaired and grey-eyed; the only blond Elves were the > Vanyar and that particular branch of the Noldor that was called "the golden > house of Finwe". I belive this is expressly stated somewhere in the > Appendices, but I can't remember where or find it. No, in the appendices it is said that all the Eldar were dark-haired except the golden house of Finarfin. It *completely* ignored the Vanyar - it also completely ignored silver-haired Sindar like Thingol, Celeborn, etc... Through HOME it was later made obvious that this passage originally referred to the *Noldor* alone, thus reasonably said that all were dark-haired except the house of Finarfin. It didn't give information about the Sindar or the Vanyar at all. But a clumsy edit on Tolkien's part made it seemingly refer to all the Eldar. That of course completely contradicted his work, both Hobbit with golden-haired Thranduil, and LOTR with silver-haired Celeborn and Cirdan. Ars Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:38:47 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9rvb0v$fhj$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u139.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004744544 15923 62.103.251.139 (2 Nov 2001 23:42:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:42:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56803 Noora wrote in message news:ef855a1e3cd1b101609c942d94b1d3be.25386@mygate.mailgate.org... > "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message > news:9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > > His father was blonde, > > where says? in the Hobbit? Yes. > and Legolas is NOT blonde. it says 'stars framing his dark head' (or something, > quoting from memory), He was African-Elven? :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:42:40 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9rvb88$fml$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u139.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004744777 16085 62.103.251.139 (2 Nov 2001 23:46:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:46:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56801 Öjevind Lång wrote in message news:zbFE7.1925$y02.6396@nntpserver.swip.net... > > Not really. I'd say this is one of the many cases when Tolkien wrote > something in "The Hobbit", a children's book, that did not really mesh with > his fully conceived creation. It *is* stated somewhere (in the Appendices?) > that the only blond Elves were the Vanyar and some Noldor. No, in the appendices it is stated that only some Noldor were blond. Therefore the Vanyar are all dark-haired, and everything else, including the Silmarillion, is Tolkien writing a children's book that doesn't mesh with anything I tell you!!! ;-) > Besides, like someone else posting to this thread I have a very strong > feeling that Legolas' dark hair is mentioned somewhere in LotR; The first time I read the books I imagined him blond. I'm sure that I wouldn't have imagined him blond if it explicitely said otherwise in the books. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Nov 2001 01:30:43 GMT References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56826 Look! They needed ONE blond in the Fellowship!!!!! Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004754425 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:27:05 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:27:05 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: ZBIE7-27063-N4-7134@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ffd3c05d e4cb346c b8f490a2 982b36ef 294273f6 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 02:27:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56814 Quoth "Öjevind Lång" in article : > Not really. I'd say this is one of the many cases when Tolkien wrote > something in "The Hobbit", a children's book, that did not really mesh with > his fully conceived creation. It *is* stated somewhere (in the Appendices?) > that the only blond Elves were the Vanyar and some Noldor. Aris has already given a fairly good answer to this elsewhere in the thread. The quote you're thinking of says of the Eldar that "their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin", but this is clearly contradicted by the lighter hair of Celeborn, Thranduil (in _The Hobbit_), Feanor's father-in-law and his youngest sons (I think), the Vanyar in general, and probably others. Moreover, Aris pointed out that this passage in Appendix F was originally written to apply only to the Noldor. Christopher discusses this point at some length in HoMe XII (in his discussion of the draft he calls "F 3"; p. 77 in my hardback copy), though he seems puzzled as much as anything. I believe that the light hair of the Vanyar was too firmly fixed in the legendarium to have been rejected in this passage. > Speculating that "the three tribes intermarried a little while they > all lived near Cuivienen" makes sense in the real world, but as you > know, that is not how Tolkien's world functions. They certainly intermarried in Valinor! Not just Indis and Finwe, but others as well: I have memories of things getting remarkably complicated when I tried to track down the heritage of Arwen. :) To quote myself (Message-ID: yb9M4.371%24v3.3317%40uchinews): "Why did so many Noldorin kings and princes not wed Noldorin women? Finarfin, remember, married one of the Teleri. Feanor seems to be the only one who married another Noldo. Weird." > Besides, like someone else posting to this thread I have a very > strong feeling that Legolas' dark hair is mentioned somewhere in > LotR; I'll keep an eye open for it the next time I read the book. If it were, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be an open question. :) There are enough people here who know the texts well enough that _someone_ would have noticed in the past ten years. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 68 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:28:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.210.245 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004758085 63.14.210.245 (Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:28:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:28:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56787 On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:04:15 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth Michael Kohrs in article >: >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >Quoth bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink): >> >> Was Legolas blonde? > >> >As I recall, the major argument that he was blond is that Thranduil >> >is (as described in the woodland feast in _The Hobbit_, I believe). > >> I just checked The Hobbit and could not find a single reference to >> Thrainduil's hair being blond. Can you be more specific? > >I don't have the books with me here at work, but fortunately I _do_ >have Google's Groups archive, and David Salo once had the books handy: > >---- In message dsalo-ya02408000R1801981217000001@news.doit.wisc.edu, >David Salo said: ---- > >| This is a very reasonable and obvious argument; unfortunately, in >| The Hobbit, the Elvenking (Thranduil, Legolas' father) is specified >| as having had _golden_ hair ("Flies and Spiders": 'The feast that >| they now saw was greater and more magnificent than before; and at >| the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown >| of leaves upon his golden hair...') > >So, there you go. :) Thanks. Now that I have located the reference, I can start quibbling :) Three points to consider - the passage in question occurred during the night when the king was surrounded by torches and fires. I'm not an expert on the reflective qualities of different colors, but the reflected light may have made his hair seem golden. The dwarves and Bilbo were malnourished and their eyes had grown accustomed to the darkness of Mirkwood. Third, Tolkien mentions that there was some sort of magic in the air - both Thorin & Bilbo fell into an enchanted sleep as soon as they stepped into the light. There is no way to judge whether this also affected the dwarves' vision, of course, but neither can the possibility be ruled out. >> I don't recall all the details of Thrainduil's lineage, but I think >> we must rule out intermarriage with the Vanyar or Noldor. > >Er, why? To be specific, why not at least consider the possibility >that the three tribes intermarried a little while they all lived near >Cuivienen? I'd suggest that Thranduil's "golden" hair presents at >least one good reason to think that they did... :) > > Steuard Jensen Well, that is possible, I suppose. I was rather under the impression that the division of the Eldar into different tribes did not occur until after the journey to Valar began and that this division did not so much reflect racial characteristics as it did philosophical differences. In other words, the Vanyar were eager to leave ME, the Noldor were the most adventurous and therefore willing to try new things and the Teleri were the most reluctant to leave ME. It seemed to me that the differences described in the Silmarillion occurred primarily after the three tribes had settled in Valinor. I'm not sure that the question of whether Thrainduil's ancestors ever intermarried can be answered within the criteria above. I'll have to ponder the question for awhile before I'm willing to give a more definite answer. Mnkohrz ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:00:16 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56788 On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:04:15 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >| This is a very reasonable and obvious argument; unfortunately, in >| The Hobbit, the Elvenking (Thranduil, Legolas' father) is specified >| as having had _golden_ hair ("Flies and Spiders": 'The feast that >| they now saw was greater and more magnificent than before; and at >| the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown >| of leaves upon his golden hair...') > >So, there you go. :) Actually, what Tolkien *didn't* say was that Bilbo was wrong in his attribution. That was Legolas' weird Uncle Hairy, Finmog. Finmog liked to dress in drag also. Once he even wore a crown of thorns. Of course he was stoned at the time. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "A new study shows that licking a frog can cure depression. The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed again." --Jay Leno ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:04:20 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9rvb88$fml$1@usenet.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56916 On Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:42:40 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > >The first time I read the books I imagined him blond. I'm sure that I >wouldn't >have imagined him blond if it explicitely said otherwise in the books. > Eh, you Geeks all have a 'blonde' fetish. It's a cultural trait that's been around since that guy, Homer Simpson. Archeology has demonstrated that Achilles was bald and Apollo used bleach. Now, look, was Merlina Mercuri a blonde or not? Wah-hahahahahahahahah! Only Turks are natural blondes. (Many of them settled in Sweden according to Snorri.) the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James T. Kirk ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:06:06 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9rvb0v$fhj$1@usenet.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!newsfeed.frii.net!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56920 On Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:38:47 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > >He was African-Elven? :-) > No, Silly! Indonesian. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James T. Kirk ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Nov 2001 04:07:18 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011102230718.14773.00000253@nso-dh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56825 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> Not really. I'd say this is one of the many cases when Tolkien wrote >> something in "The Hobbit", a children's book, that did not really mesh with >> his fully conceived creation. It *is* stated somewhere (in the Appendices?) >> that the only blond Elves were the Vanyar and some Noldor. > >Aris has already given a fairly good answer to this elsewhere in the >thread. The quote you're thinking of says of the Eldar that "their >locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin", but this is >clearly contradicted by the lighter hair of Celeborn, Thranduil (in >_The Hobbit_), Feanor's father-in-law and his youngest sons (I think), >the Vanyar in general, and probably others. Moreover, Aris pointed >out that this passage in Appendix F was originally written to apply >only to the Noldor. Christopher discusses this point at some length >in HoMe XII (in his discussion of the draft he calls "F 3"; p. 77 in >my hardback copy), though he seems puzzled as much as anything. I >believe that the light hair of the Vanyar was too firmly fixed in the >legendarium to have been rejected in this passage. Good Eru..cannot we have any differences??? Most Vanyar were blond, that doesnt mean there wasn't an occasional blonde among the Lindar, or, heaven forfend, the Noldor. Russ ###### From: "DragnFlye" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:36:27 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9rvvvf028o8@enews2.newsguy.com> References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> Reply-To: "DragnFlye" NNTP-Posting-Host: p-632.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56821 "Russ" wrote in message news:20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com... > Look! They needed ONE blond in the Fellowship!!!!! I think they have at least three: Legolas, Boromir, and Pippin. Anyone else? BTW, Galadriel is described as having golden hair in the LOTR, but isn't Cate Blanchett also a bit on the blondish side? I don't see any golden hair. Platinum, perhaps. DragnFlye ###### From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 07:04:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.88.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004771041 63.14.88.74 (Sat, 03 Nov 2001 07:04:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 07:04:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56903 On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:00:16 -0800, the softrat wrote: >On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:04:15 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu >(Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >>| This is a very reasonable and obvious argument; unfortunately, in >>| The Hobbit, the Elvenking (Thranduil, Legolas' father) is specified >>| as having had _golden_ hair ("Flies and Spiders": 'The feast that >>| they now saw was greater and more magnificent than before; and at >>| the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown >>| of leaves upon his golden hair...') >> >>So, there you go. :) > >Actually, what Tolkien *didn't* say was that Bilbo was wrong in his >attribution. That was Legolas' weird Uncle Hairy, Finmog. Finmog liked >to dress in drag also. Once he even wore a crown of thorns. Of course >he was stoned at the time. > > > > >the softrat "He who rubs owls" >mailto:softrat@pobox.com Ok, that's three posts in which the Softrat has made bad jokes. Time to 'fess up, Softie: What exactly are you smoking now? 8?> Mnkohrz ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:38:46 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1004776758 31718 192.168.30.113 (3 Nov 2001 08:39:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2001 08:39:18 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56855 In article , Michael Kohrs says... > On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:00:16 -0800, the softrat > wrote: > > >On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:04:15 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > >(Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > > >>| This is a very reasonable and obvious argument; unfortunately, in > >>| The Hobbit, the Elvenking (Thranduil, Legolas' father) is specified > >>| as having had _golden_ hair ("Flies and Spiders": 'The feast that > >>| they now saw was greater and more magnificent than before; and at > >>| the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown > >>| of leaves upon his golden hair...') > >> > >>So, there you go. :) > > > >Actually, what Tolkien *didn't* say was that Bilbo was wrong in his > >attribution. That was Legolas' weird Uncle Hairy, Finmog. Finmog liked > >to dress in drag also. Once he even wore a crown of thorns. Of course > >he was stoned at the time. > > Ok, that's three posts in which the Softrat has made bad jokes. Time > to 'fess up, Softie: What exactly are you smoking now? 8?> Judging by the calibre of the jokes, I'd say grass. Lawn clippings to be precise. -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Legolas question Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.34.125 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1004799605 212.151.34.125 (Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:00:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:00:05 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-34-125.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:00:41 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56859 Steuard Jensen wrote: >Quoth "Öjevind Lång" in article >: > >> Not really. I'd say this is one of the many cases when Tolkien wrote >> something in "The Hobbit", a children's book, that did not really mesh with >> his fully conceived creation. It *is* stated somewhere (in the Appendices?) >> that the only blond Elves were the Vanyar and some Noldor. > >Aris has already given a fairly good answer to this elsewhere in the >thread. The quote you're thinking of says of the Eldar that "their >locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin", but this is >clearly contradicted by the lighter hair of Celeborn, Thranduil (in >_The Hobbit_), Feanor's father-in-law and his youngest sons (I think), >the Vanyar in general, and probably others. Moreover, Aris pointed >out that this passage in Appendix F was originally written to apply >only to the Noldor. The operative word here being *originally*. Later on, it was not. Öjevind ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004801001 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:23:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:23:21 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: JZTE7-31709-N4-7797@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: bbfe7022 d14e28ac d2f00017 dab81541 069b8cb5 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:23:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56816 Quoth "Öjevind Lång" in article : > Steuard Jensen wrote: > >The quote you're thinking of says of the Eldar that "their locks > >were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin", but this is > >clearly contradicted by the lighter hair of Celeborn, Thranduil (in > >_The Hobbit_), Feanor's father-in-law and his youngest sons (I > >think), the Vanyar in general, and probably others. Moreover, Aris > >pointed out that this passage in Appendix F was originally written > >to apply only to the Noldor. > The operative word here being *originally*. Later on, it was not. But Celeborn's hair wasn't dark! It was "silver", so he wasn't even secretly a member of "the golden house of Finarfin" (yuck!). Thus, this quote about the Eldar directly contradicts other material in LotR. If we rely only on evidence from LotR itself, the only resolution of this that I can see is that Celeborn isn't actually one of the Eldar (he would have to be one of the Avari, I guess). We are also forced to conclude that the description of Thranduil in _The Hobbit_ isn't canonical or accurate (or that Thranduil was also one of the Avari), and that Tolkien's descriptions of the Vanyar and other light-haired Eldar in other writings (many of them from after LotR) must have been incorrect. Alternately, we can conclude that Tolkien missed one little detail in shifting from the Noldo-specific form of this passage to the final one, and that the comment about dark hair was meant to apply only to the Exiles. (That is probably a valid alternate reading of the passage in general, actually.) If we make this choice, we actually get to believe the many, many other places where Tolkien refers to Eldar with light hair... and we get to believe that Celeborn was not one of the Avari. I guess this is an question of one's feelings on "canon"... but despite being a bit of a stickler for canonical material in general, I'm willing to bend LotR in thise case for the sake of, well, everything else. :) I suppose others may disagree (but they're silly, I tell you!). :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:47:27 -0500 Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3BE4117F.5B9C5546@erols.com> References: Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYLfgWWL4jF6pgDTZOfwJ4tc7pxgd4bAYgXa4iY9vU1+X9qnQOEiECf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2001 15:53:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!blackbush.de.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56776 Steuard Jensen wrote: > But Celeborn's hair wasn't dark! It was "silver", so he wasn't even > secretly a member of "the golden house of Finarfin" (yuck!). Thus, > this quote about the Eldar directly contradicts other material in > LotR. If we rely only on evidence from LotR itself, the only > resolution of this that I can see is that Celeborn isn't actually one > of the Eldar (he would have to be one of the Avari, I guess). We are > also forced to conclude that the description of Thranduil in _The > Hobbit_ isn't canonical or accurate (or that Thranduil was also one of > the Avari), and that Tolkien's descriptions of the Vanyar and other > light-haired Eldar in other writings (many of them from after LotR) > must have been incorrect. Remember that the Silm. was a work in progress. Perhaps JRRT meant to fix that but died first. > Alternately, we can conclude that Tolkien missed one little detail in > shifting from the Noldo-specific form of this passage to the final > one, and that the comment about dark hair was meant to apply only to > the Exiles. (That is probably a valid alternate reading of the > passage in general, actually.) Tolkien missing a detail? By Círdan's beard, that could be it! > If we make this choice, we actually > get to believe the many, many other places where Tolkien refers to > Eldar with light hair... and we get to believe that Celeborn was not > one of the Avari. I guess this is an question of one's feelings on > "canon"... but despite being a bit of a stickler for canonical > material in general, I'm willing to bend LotR in thise case for the > sake of, well, everything else. :) Of course Tolkien himself felt bound by his published works. But there are many possible explanations: Celeborn could be a genetic mutant, he could have dyed his hair, Galadriel's constant henpecking could have turned his hair silver, etc. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:52:51 -0500 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3BE412C3.1A8F314B@erols.com> References: Reply-To: FotW@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYuLlNQurdRZP2/AfMrwMg99c9ItvkLUzvfoOllaEDymrFUzPNlAMll X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2001 15:57:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56774 Steuard Jensen wrote: > In fact, all Elves used magic to make themselves appear more > desirable. No mortal ever perceived an Elven-maid with a bust smaller > than a C cup, for example, and every Elven male looked like a > Mr. Universe contender. It is the opinion of some commentators that Lúthien was in fact a real dog, but was the all-time Queen of Cosmetic Elf-Magic. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 54 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004802773 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:52:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:52:53 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: ppUE7-31858-N4-7864@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 7ad03edd 6ec2d921 2b0c7201 f21852c7 8655ac55 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:52:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56822 Quoth Michael Kohrs in article : > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > the passage in question occurred during > the night when the king was surrounded by torches and fires. I'm not > an expert on the reflective qualities of different colors, but the > reflected light may have made his hair seem golden. Wouldn't that have made his hair seem red? > The dwarves and Bilbo were malnourished and their eyes had grown > accustomed to the darkness of Mirkwood. So, you're saying that when your eyes are accustomed to the dark, well-lit dark hair suddenly starts to look blond? I guess I can imagine that if the hair were brown rather than black (though Tolkien's wording doesn't give the slightest hint that the hair wasn't actually golden). > Third, Tolkien mentions that there was some sort of magic in the > air... There is no way to judge whether this also affected the > dwarves' vision, of course, but neither can the possibility be ruled > out. In fact, all Elves used magic to make themselves appear more desirable. No mortal ever perceived an Elven-maid with a bust smaller than a C cup, for example, and every Elven male looked like a Mr. Universe contender. And they all used their magic to make themselves look blonde: Tolkien was firmly of the opinion that the Aryan race was superior to all others. (For the clueless, not a word of the above is true, as far as I know. :) ) > >Er, why? To be specific, why not at least consider the possibility > >that the three tribes intermarried a little while they all lived > >near Cuivienen? > Well, that is possible, I suppose. I was rather under the > impression that the division of the Eldar into different tribes did > not occur until after the journey to Valar began and that this > division did not so much reflect racial characteristics as it did > philosophical differences. The division certainly predated the journey. One text (I'm afraid I don't recall which off the top of my head) estimates that all of the Vanyar, half of the Noldor, and, er, I've forgotten what fraction of the Teleri went on the journey (with the rest becoming the Avari). Moreover, unless hair color among the Elves determined their philosophical attitudes, it seems likely that the different tribes already had distinct cultures _and_ physical traits before the journey began. Steuard Jensen ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: 03 Nov 2001 18:54:29 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6uzo63oi3u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1004810069 346 10.0.3.2 (3 Nov 2001 17:54:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2001 17:54:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56926 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > Quoth Michael Kohrs in article > : > > Well, that is possible, I suppose. I was rather under the > > impression that the division of the Eldar into different tribes did > > not occur until after the journey to Valar began and that this > > division did not so much reflect racial characteristics as it did > > philosophical differences. > > The division certainly predated the journey. One text (I'm afraid I > don't recall which off the top of my head) estimates that all of the > Vanyar, half of the Noldor, and, er, I've forgotten what fraction of > the Teleri went on the journey (with the rest becoming the Avari). Not to forget an text in one of the later HoMEs (in PoME?) that says that the 3 types of elves awakened in separate groups. So at least at that time Tolkien regarded than as very distinct from each other. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:48:35 -0500 Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.67.51 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.67.51 Message-ID: <3be49d5a_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Trace: news.starnetinc.com 1004838234 64.24.67.51 (3 Nov 2001 19:43:54 -0600) X-Complaints-To: abuse@megapop.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chcgil2-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.starnetinc.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56988 "Bruce N. Hietbrink" wrote in message news:bnh-0111011146410001@houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu... > Hi all, > > I've got a silly question, and I've glanced through the books but can't > find the answer. > Was Legolas blonde? I'm working on a project that I'll show you all soon, but > I want to get the various characters hair color right. I can't tell if my > mental picture > of Legolas comes from the books or from the cartoon. No. Legolas had black hair, as did all the Elves except in "the golden house of Finrod", to which Galadriel belonged. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 04 Nov 2001 02:40:02 GMT References: <3be49d5a_1@news.starnetinc.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011103214002.12427.00001087@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56992 In article <3be49d5a_1@news.starnetinc.com>, "A Tsar Is Born" writes: >> Hi all, >> >> I've got a silly question, and I've glanced through the books but can't >> find the answer. >> Was Legolas blonde? I'm working on a project that I'll show you all soon, >but >> I want to get the various characters hair color right. I can't tell if my >> mental picture >> of Legolas comes from the books or from the cartoon. > >No. Legolas had black hair, as did all the Elves except in "the golden house >of Finrod", to which Galadriel belonged. > Some elves had silver hair (i.e. Celeborn and Thingol) and some had red hair (i.e. Naerdnael and some of of her wanker sons) Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:43:14 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9s36am$rvh$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3be49d5a_1@news.starnetinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u025.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004870806 28657 62.103.251.25 (4 Nov 2001 10:46:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:46:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56980 A Tsar Is Born wrote in message news:3be49d5a_1@news.starnetinc.com... > > No. Legolas had black hair, as did all the Elves except in "the golden house > of Finrod", to which Galadriel belonged. I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired. Legolas was most probably blonde. Aris Katsaris ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:17:08 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.be X-Server-Date: 4 Nov 2001 16:16:59 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57030 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >MrHobbit9 wrote in message >news:20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com... >> >> Legolas was a Sinda... therefore he didn't have blond hair. None of the >Sinda >> did. > >Tolkien disagrees with you. > Now _there's_ a helpful comment! If you're going to post something like that, please have the courtesy to back it up with a quote and a reference. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 04 Nov 2001 16:56:14 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011104115614.25459.00000765@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56994 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >>MrHobbit9 wrote in message >>news:20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com... >>> >>> Legolas was a Sinda... therefore he didn't have blond hair. None of the >>Sinda >>> did. >> >>Tolkien disagrees with you. >> > >Now _there's_ a helpful comment! > >If you're going to post something like that, please have the >courtesy to back it up with a quote and a reference. I'll help Ari out...Thingol and Celeborn, both Sinda, had silver hair. And of course the reference in The Hobbit to Thranduil, a Sinda, having blond hair. Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:41:24 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-t198.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004903096 10723 62.103.252.198 (4 Nov 2001 19:44:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:44:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56975 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.164f341142f5c87b98ca4d@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >Tolkien disagrees with you. > > Now _there's_ a helpful comment! > > If you're going to post something like that, please have the > courtesy to back it up with a quote and a reference. I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for *his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out even though it's usually the first guy who states something that is first obliged to support it with references. Why should I give another the courtesy he didn't give me? Besides, I *did* come with more than a few references several times in this thread. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Legolas question Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:37:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.242 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004906229 12.79.28.242 (Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:37:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:37:09 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!teaser.fr!feed.ac-versailles.fr!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!news-in.superfeed.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56981 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr... >>> Tolkien disagrees with you. > I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for > *his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* > comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out > even though it's usually the first guy who states something that > is first obliged to support it with references. That particular line is a bit more than just 'stating something without providing references'. It is also 'speaking for Tolkien'... never a good idea. I was fairly shocked to see it used here again. ###### Lines: 7 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 04 Nov 2001 23:36:33 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011104183633.27748.00001469@mb-bg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.238.2.15!skynet.be!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57072 >> I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for >> *his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* >> comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out >> even though it's usually the first guy who states something that >> is first obliged to support it with references. I quoted Oje. Lang as my reference. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:28:51 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.5a X-Server-Date: 5 Nov 2001 01:28:41 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57110 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"Aris Katsaris" wrote in message >news:9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > >>>> Tolkien disagrees with you. > >> I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for >> *his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* >> comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out >> even though it's usually the first guy who states something that >> is first obliged to support it with references. > >That particular line is a bit more than just 'stating something without >providing references'. It is also 'speaking for Tolkien'... never a >good idea. I was fairly shocked to see it used here again. In this matter you speak for me also, Conrad. (Aris, I saw your article but not the other one you refer to.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 00:28:53 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <9rsqoq$6ue$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.9f.05 X-Server-Date: 5 Nov 2001 05:28:54 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!jblanks Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57078 "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >His father was blonde, so he has *atleast* 50% chance of him also >being that. My advice would be to go with the greater odds and have >him indeed be blonde. IIRC, blondness is genetically recessive, at least for actual real-world human beings. Besides, since Tolkien's decided that most Noldor have dark hair, why not actually put some in the book? He's already put two blonds front-and-center by the time he introduces Legolas (to say nothing of the Elvenking in TH); he needs to counteract the impression that that's the typical case if he's going to get the actual workings of his imagination across. (I'm not counting the partially human-descended Elrond and Arwen here. Why not? I dunno!) Kinda makes ya wish he'd just left Glorfindel in the Fellowship like he was originally gonna do. -- Imagination is intelligence with an erection. --Victor Hugo ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 21:37:46 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.13.28.125!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57103 On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:41:24 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > >I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for >*his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* >comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out >even though it's usually the first guy who states something that >is first obliged to support it with references. > >Why should I give another the courtesy he didn't give me? >Besides, I *did* come with more than a few references several >times in this thread. > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. I can do anything I want! Nyah. Nyah. Nyah! Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:29:20 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9s5tda$2j7$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o124.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004959979 2663 212.205.252.124 (5 Nov 2001 11:32:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:32:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57058 the softrat wrote in message news:m99cutc1pg7q49hltus2lnq8g2e0v3cf4t@4ax.com... > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:41:24 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" > wrote: > > > >I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for > >*his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* > >comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out > >even though it's usually the first guy who states something that > >is first obliged to support it with references. > > > >Why should I give another the courtesy he didn't give me? > >Besides, I *did* come with more than a few references several > >times in this thread. > > > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. Agnostic, rather. :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:32:19 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9s5tim$2ko$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <20011104183633.27748.00001469@mb-bg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o124.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004960151 2712 212.205.252.124 (5 Nov 2001 11:35:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:35:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57063 MrHobbit9 wrote in message news:20011104183633.27748.00001469@mb-bg.aol.com... > > I quoted Oje. Lang as my reference. And I used Tolkien as mine... ;-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:38:42 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9s5tum$2r9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o124.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004960534 2921 212.205.252.124 (5 Nov 2001 11:42:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:42:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57060 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.164fb560afea33e398ca55@news.mindspring.com... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >That particular line is a bit more than just 'stating something without > >providing references'. It is also 'speaking for Tolkien'... never a > >good idea. I was fairly shocked to see it used here again. > > In this matter you speak for me also, Conrad. > > (Aris, I saw your article but not the other one you refer to.) I several times referred to Thranduil himself, but I've given much more examples in the one that said "I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired." Since everyone's sole argument is that *all* the Eldar (including the Vanyar) except only the House of Finarfin, is black-haired... Aris Katsaris ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:32:26 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s5tda$2j7$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1004967175 26668 192.168.30.113 (5 Nov 2001 13:32:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2001 13:32:55 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57088 In article <9s5tda$2j7$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris says... > > the softrat wrote in message > news:m99cutc1pg7q49hltus2lnq8g2e0v3cf4t@4ax.com... > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:41:24 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" > > wrote: > > > > > >I notice that you didn't bother to complain to the other guy for > > >*his* lack of courtesy when he didn't bother to back *his* > > >comments with a quote or a reference. You singled me out > > >even though it's usually the first guy who states something that > > >is first obliged to support it with references. > > > > > >Why should I give another the courtesy he didn't give me? > > >Besides, I *did* come with more than a few references several > > >times in this thread. > > > > > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. > > Agnostic, rather. :-) Mature? -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:34:43 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9s6bp8$8qi$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s5tda$2j7$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p001.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004974697 9042 212.205.253.1 (5 Nov 2001 15:38:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:38:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57059 Donald Shepherd wrote in message news:MPG.165131e7b3be3cf9989b1b@news.uq.edu.au... > In article <9s5tda$2j7$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris > says... > > > > the softrat wrote in message > > > > > > > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. > > > > Agnostic, rather. :-) > > Mature? Not for me to judge. Legally an adult anyway. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Nov 2001 15:48:45 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57079 In article , Donald Shepherd writes: >> > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. >> >> Agnostic, rather. :-) > >Mature? Male? Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:00:12 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9s6nqf$e5g$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u139.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1004987024 14512 62.103.251.139 (5 Nov 2001 19:03:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:03:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57137 Russ wrote in message news:20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com... > In article , Donald Shepherd > writes: > > >> > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. > >> > >> Agnostic, rather. :-) > > > >Mature? > > Male? I could write it more fully as Aristotelis. Or as "Ares", of course. Never gotten used to that - I'd constantly feel that I ought to write "Katsares" as well. That's of course the Latin's fault for transcribing both Eta and Epsilon with "e". Sick. :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9rss5o$9ub$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20011101203353.16507.00000741@mb-de.aol.com> <9rtsv6$mn2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s45rn$af3$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9s5tda$2j7$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Legolas question Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:34:24 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1004995628 195.82.196.95 (Mon, 05 Nov 2001 22:27:08 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 22:27:08 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57140 "Donald Shepherd" skrev i en meddelelse news:MPG.165131e7b3be3cf9989b1b@news.uq.edu.au... > > the softrat wrote in message > > news:m99cutc1pg7q49hltus2lnq8g2e0v3cf4t@4ax.com... > > > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. [...] > Mature? Over-ripe, to say the least. Korax. ###### From: "David Flood" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:02:50 -0000 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9s6r4p$2c7$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-91.nuada.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 1004990425 2439 62.137.249.91 (5 Nov 2001 20:00:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2001 20:00:25 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57150 "Russ" wrote in message news:20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com... > In article , Donald Shepherd > writes: > > >> > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. > >> > >> Agnostic, rather. :-) > > > >Mature? > > Male? White? D. ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 12:51:21 -0800 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> <9s6r4p$2c7$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu X-Trace: persian.noc.ucla.edu 1004993488 24298 169.232.140.227 (5 Nov 2001 20:51:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:51:28 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!houkdhcp227.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57190 Wow, I wouldn't have thought that question would have sparked more than a couple of posts. I'm going to go with blonde, and if purists yell too much I'll point to Steuard and Aris as my defenders. I reallized my other hair colors and some details are going to be off anyway. And, yes, I'm giving my Balrog wings. I'm keeping my project under wraps for the moment, but will soon (hopefully tomorrow) unveil the first portion. Bruce ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Nov 2001 22:10:56 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011105171056.27773.00001146@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57157 In article , "Raven" writes: >> > the softrat wrote in message >> > news:m99cutc1pg7q49hltus2lnq8g2e0v3cf4t@4ax.com... > >> > > Anyway, I'm a mature adult white Christian male. > [...] >> Mature? > Over-ripe, to say the least. And starting to smell. Russ ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 17:34:28 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3BE713EE.A9786DEA@erols.com> References: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> <9s6r4p$2c7$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZwuFLr2eY3YylbaqzYq6t+7A7TGxPsq3n8YyJRhm1QMTqkAP5Muxvd X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2001 23:59:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57119 Bruce N. Hietbrink made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Wow, I wouldn't have thought that question would have sparked > more than a couple of posts. I'm going to go with blonde, and > if purists yell Why would we yell? There's no clear statement. I envision him as blond, too. (though that may be due to the Bakshi movie) > And, yes, I'm giving my Balrog wings. :-) > Bruce Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:25:35 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> <9s6r4p$2c7$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005002766 4025 192.168.30.113 (5 Nov 2001 23:26:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2001 23:26:06 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57184 In article , Bruce N. Hietbrink says... > Wow, I wouldn't have thought that question would have sparked > more than a couple of posts. I'm going to go with blonde, and > if purists yell too much I'll point to Steuard and Aris as my defenders. > I reallized my other hair colors and some details are going to be > off anyway. And, yes, I'm giving my Balrog wings. > I'm keeping my project under wraps for the moment, but will > soon (hopefully tomorrow) unveil the first portion. This is quite amusing as it turned up in the debate about Aris' 'mature adult white male'-ness. I was trying to figure out how you found out he was blond. -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Nov 2001 23:55:18 GMT References: <9s5tum$2r9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011105185518.22955.00001719@mb-fq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!elvis.franken.de!chico.franken.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57143 >"I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, >Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel >and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired." Rogaine for Elfs. ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Nov 2001 03:04:02 GMT References: <20011105185518.22955.00001719@mb-fq.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011105220402.25429.00001448@nso-fc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!208.184.7.66.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57153 In article <20011105185518.22955.00001719@mb-fq.aol.com>, mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) writes: >>"I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, >>Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel >>and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired." > >Rogaine for Elfs. > Elves. Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:14:42 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9s9nj7$9og$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <20011105104845.10701.00001346@nso-mv.aol.com> <9s6r4p$2c7$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b162.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1005085095 10000 212.205.219.162 (6 Nov 2001 22:18:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:18:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57240 Donald Shepherd wrote in message news:MPG.1651bce67bc568f6989b2f@news.uq.edu.au... > In article , Bruce N. > Hietbrink says... > > Wow, I wouldn't have thought that question would have sparked > > more than a couple of posts. I'm going to go with blonde, and > > if purists yell too much I'll point to Steuard and Aris as my defenders. > > I reallized my other hair colors and some details are going to be > > off anyway. And, yes, I'm giving my Balrog wings. > > I'm keeping my project under wraps for the moment, but will > > soon (hopefully tomorrow) unveil the first portion. > > This is quite amusing as it turned up in the debate about Aris' 'mature > adult white male'-ness. I was trying to figure out how you found out he > was blond. And the funny thing is that I *am* blonde - and for a second I also wondered how he knew that... :-) Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Nov 2001 22:32:13 GMT References: <20011105220402.25429.00001448@nso-fc.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011106173213.02795.00001768@mb-mu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57252 >>>"I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, >>>Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel >>>and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired." >> >>Rogaine for Elfs. >> > >Elves. > >Russ Elfs. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:03:02 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20011105220402.25429.00001448@nso-fc.aol.com> <20011106173213.02795.00001768@mb-mu.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005098639 29698 192.168.30.113 (7 Nov 2001 02:03:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2001 02:03:59 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57274 In article <20011106173213.02795.00001768@mb-mu.aol.com>, MrHobbit9 says... > >>>"I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, > >>>Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel > >>>and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired." > >> > >>Rogaine for Elfs. > >> > > > >Elves. > > > >Russ > > Elfs. Elvises. -- Donald Shepherd "It's true that clothes make the man. Naked people have had little or no lasting impact in society." - Mark Twain ###### Lines: 19 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Nov 2001 02:10:02 GMT References: <20011106173213.02795.00001768@mb-mu.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011106211002.18445.00001188@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57258 In article <20011106173213.02795.00001768@mb-mu.aol.com>, mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) writes: >>>>"I want to see you make the case for Idril, Elenwe, Indis, Thingol, >>>>Nerdanel, Thranduil, Cirdan, Celeborn, Ingwe, Miriel, Glorfindel >>>>and *all* the Vanyar all being black-haired." >>> >>>Rogaine for Elfs. >>> >> >>Elves. >> >>Russ > >Elfs. What? Do you say "dwarfs" too? Russ ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:17:41 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-185-13.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57712 Look!! Everyone knows that the Noldor are dark haired and all other elves are generally lighter. That quote about the Elder haveng dark locks, save the house of Finarfin, applies to the Noldor only!!!! It the dark hair that makes the Noldor different from others. Have you forgotten the bit in the Silmarilion that talks about how one of the three houses of men resembled the Noldor the most, ie their stature and DARK hair and were therefore 'most loved by them'. Douglas ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: 10 Nov 2001 15:13:47 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.0.244.67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005434028 13877 127.0.0.1 (10 Nov 2001 23:13:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2001 23:13:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57729 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:<9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>... > Look!! > Everyone knows that the Noldor are dark haired and all other elves are > generally lighter. > > That quote about the Elder haveng dark locks, save the house of Finarfin, > applies to the Noldor only!!!! > > It the dark hair that makes the Noldor different from others. > Have you forgotten the bit in the Silmarilion that talks about how one of > the three houses of men resembled the Noldor the most, ie their stature and > DARK hair and were therefore 'most loved by them'. > > Douglas Have you forgotten Luthien Tinuviel, who was dark-haired, and not a Noldo. The Sindar _tended_ to be dark-haired as well (though there seems to have been more variation among them, with silver and golden hair among their royal house (Thingol, Celeborn and Thranduil)) see WotJ pg. 384. Tar-Elenion ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:05:55 -0500 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3BEDC0DE.96C09331@erols.com> References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVabl8ntwT3luav/druLf/MQvJ+oHMP8vcST1PlYv2hDX8Gvi423Ky6S X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 01:21:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.158.233.21.MISMATCH!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57605 Douglas Eckhart made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Look!! > Everyone knows that the Noldor are dark haired and all other elves are > generally lighter. Um, I think that a while ago, either Conrad or Steuard quoted someing that said that except for their royal family, the Teleri are dark-haired. Could someone help me? > It the dark hair that makes the Noldor different from others. I thought it was their skill at make things. > Douglas Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:12:31 -0500 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com> References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZP7qa5BGTl7GxBq+hJYaUeIDMxmM+3K16nQL5dYvYwAYfOhF5P3FvJ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 03:47:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57613 Tar-Elenion made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Have you forgotten Luthien Tinuviel, who was dark-haired, and not a > Noldo. I thought that was because Melian's form was dark-haired. > Tar-Elenion Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: 11 Nov 2001 08:46:03 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.0.244.67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005497163 25339 127.0.0.1 (11 Nov 2001 16:46:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 16:46:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!deine.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57738 Ermanna wrote in message news:<3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com>... > Tar-Elenion made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > Have you forgotten Luthien Tinuviel, who was dark-haired, and not a > > Noldo. > > I thought that was because Melian's form was dark-haired. > > > > Tar-Elenion > > Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, > Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist > > Elbereth Gilthoniel! While I like to imagine Melian as dark-haired, I dont think it is ever stated. Tar-Elenion ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:32:55 -0500 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGB4tWfqQveNAs91fJxw7rGHrmmXmVi1MIG+xr9t1l0utpYWkrE6lD X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2001 23:59:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57780 Tar-Elenion made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > Ermanna wrote in message news: > <3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com>... > > Tar-Elenion made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > > > Have you forgotten Luthien Tinuviel, who was dark-haired, and not a > > > Noldo. > > > > I thought that was because Melian's form was dark-haired. > While I like to imagine Melian as dark-haired, I dont think it is ever stated. In The Lay of Leithian, it is said of Melian: "...and dark and long her tresses lay..." and "...pale Melian with her dark hair..." Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > Tar-Elenion Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Nov 2001 03:54:37 GMT References: <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011111225437.25459.00001703@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!usenetserver.com!208.184.7.66!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57809 In article <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com>, Ermanna writes: >In The Lay of Leithian, it is said of Melian: > "...and dark and long her tresses lay..." >and > "...pale Melian with her dark hair..." >Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > Don't give in so easy Ermanna. Let the other side raise the canon issue. Russ ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: 11 Nov 2001 20:06:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20011102162949.27773.00000886@nso-fo.aol.com> <20011102203043.18445.00000852@nso-md.aol.com> <9sjjri$e4j$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com> <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.0.244.67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005537968 1935 127.0.0.1 (12 Nov 2001 04:06:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 04:06:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57858 Ermanna wrote in message news:<3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com>... > Tar-Elenion made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > Ermanna wrote in message news: > > <3BEDEC94.83C2D066@erols.com>... > > > Tar-Elenion made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > > > > > Have you forgotten Luthien Tinuviel, who was dark-haired, and not a > > > > Noldo. > > > > > > I thought that was because Melian's form was dark-haired. > > > While I like to imagine Melian as dark-haired, I dont think it is ever stated. > > In The Lay of Leithian, it is said of Melian: > "...and dark and long her tresses lay..." > and > "...pale Melian with her dark hair..." > Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > > > Tar-Elenion > > Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, > Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist > > Elbereth Gilthoniel! Thank you, it has been quite some time since I have read the Lay (though I do have portions of it commited to memory). I consider it fairly canonical. Tar-Elenion ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: 11 Nov 2001 20:10:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0111112010.3d262832@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.242.228.113 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005538213 1998 127.0.0.1 (12 Nov 2001 04:10:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 04:10:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57845 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > Quoth Michael Kohrs in article > : > > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > In fact, all Elves used magic to make themselves appear more > desirable. No mortal ever perceived an Elven-maid with a bust smaller > than a C cup, for example, and every Elven male looked like a > Mr. Universe contender. And they all used their magic to make > themselves look blonde: Tolkien was firmly of the opinion that the > Aryan race was superior to all others. I think that was Trolkien catually. Morgan Williams's only mistake was to confuse this great writer with the second-rate scribbler Tolkein. The bit where Galadriel changes her appearance to seduce Gimli has interesting parallels with the transformation of the Wicked Queen in Snow White, but combines it with a metonymic, dilaogic troping of the Triumph des Willen. > The division certainly predated the journey. One text (I'm afraid I > don't recall which off the top of my head) estimates that all of the > Vanyar, half of the Noldor, and, er, I've forgotten what fraction of > the Teleri went on the journey (with the rest becoming the Avari). > Moreover, unless hair color among the Elves determined their > philosophical attitudes, it seems likely that the different tribes > already had distinct cultures _and_ physical traits before the journey > began. If my thesis-besotted mind recalls correctly, that is in War of the Jewels (the bit about various terms for ELves near the end). ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:14:50 -0500 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com> References: <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> <20011111225437.25459.00001703@nso-ch.aol.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaqn+9/Z6XP6h75CBDBBSLdfr+jx5rGTZfJJXQkA3KRCVydTn+odQBr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:13:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57766 Russ made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > In article <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com>, Ermanna writes: > >Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > > Don't give in so easy Ermanna. Let the other side raise the canon issue. I'm just trying to see the other side. > Russ Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrhobbit9@aol.com (MrHobbit9) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:55:22 GMT References: <6bfb27a8.0111112010.3d262832@posting.google.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Legolas question Message-ID: <20011112155522.23643.00002438@mb-fs.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57957 > The bit where Galadriel changes her appearance to seduce >Gimli If she did try to seduce him, did she turn into a dwarf-woman? And if she did, did she have a beard? ###### From: "Vulpecula Mordax" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:09:28 +0100 Organization: Planet Internet NV Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9spe1t$dfm$1@news.planetinternet.be> References: <6bfb27a8.0111112010.3d262832@posting.google.com> <20011112155522.23643.00002438@mb-fs.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u212-239-196-7.adsl.pi.be X-Trace: news.planetinternet.be 1005599613 13814 212.239.196.7 (12 Nov 2001 21:13:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planetinternet.be NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2001 21:13:33 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:19:13 GMT (newsr2.u-net.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!newsr2.u-net.net!news-peer-uk.interpacket.net!planetinternet.be!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58026 MrHobbit9 schreef in berichtnieuws 20011112155522.23643.00002438@mb-fs.aol.com... | > The bit where Galadriel changes her appearance to seduce | >Gimli | | If she did try to seduce him, did she turn into a dwarf-woman? And if she did, | did she have a beard? Of course you Tom-fool of a Took! Ever seen a dwarf-woman leave home without one? A dwarf-woman without a beard... the thought alone! Of all the stupid questions in the world, this is the most.... oh forget it! i'm too disappointed in the world now. I've got to lie down. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:49:13 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> <20011111225437.25459.00001703@nso-ch.aol.com> <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005616191 24330 192.168.30.113 (13 Nov 2001 01:49:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 2001 01:49:51 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:57997 In article <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com>, Ermanna says... > > > Russ made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > In article <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com>, Ermanna writes: > > > >Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > > > > Don't give in so easy Ermanna. Let the other side raise the canon issue. > > I'm just trying to see the other side. As an Elf, don't you see automatically? -- Donald Shepherd "Nothing needs reforming so much as other people's habits." - Mark Twain ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:14:41 -0500 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3BF3CDCE.1B666711@erols.com> References: <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> <20011111225437.25459.00001703@nso-ch.aol.com> <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com> Reply-To: Ermanna@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ3UVAxiSIGVYLRamyuh9VDkzyOk5z0Mvz+5KDmpBnYg6p0dvYdXrX2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:29:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58327 Donald Shepherd made dwagin-sized wripplse in the Force: > In article <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com>, Ermanna > says... > > Russ made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > In article <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com>, Ermanna writes: > > > > > >Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > > > > > > Don't give in so easy Ermanna. Let the other side raise the canon issue. > > > > I'm just trying to see the other side. > > As an Elf, don't you see automatically? I never tell whether I see or what I see. > -- > Donald Shepherd > > > "Nothing needs reforming so much as other people's habits." > - Mark Twain Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell, Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School, Hug-Therapist Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas question Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:27:23 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com> <20011111225437.25459.00001703@nso-ch.aol.com> <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com> <3BF3CDCE.1B666711@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1005874083 11346 192.168.30.113 (16 Nov 2001 01:28:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2001 01:28:03 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58427 In article <3BF3CDCE.1B666711@erols.com>, Ermanna says... > > > Donald Shepherd made dwagin-sized wripplse in the Force: > > In article <3BEFCB49.994A1619@erols.com>, Ermanna > > says... > > > Russ made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > > > > In article <3BEEFC94.D7FB9E40@erols.com>, Ermanna writes: > > > > > > > >Of course, if you don't consider The Lay canon, it means nothing. > > > > > > > > Don't give in so easy Ermanna. Let the other side raise the canon issue. > > > > > > I'm just trying to see the other side. > > > > As an Elf, don't you see automatically? > > I never tell whether I see or what I see. Well if that's how you're going to be, I just won't see. -- Donald Shepherd "Get your facts first, then distort them as you please." - Mark Twain (sourced from Usenet)