From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 02:06:27 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1004198810 31981 192.168.30.113 (27 Oct 2001 16:06:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Oct 2001 16:06:50 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56234 In article <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Conrad Dunkerson says... > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message > news:%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net... > > > Morgil Blackhope wrote: > > >> Todays papers had a story about new Hobbit ballet, > >> or Dance-adventure as they call it, premiering this > >> weekend(I think) here in Finland. Included was a > >> picture with text: "In this picture we see the Hobbit, > >> Bilbo Baggins flirting with an Elven-Maid..." > > >> It seems the Etext is more widely known then we thought... > > >> Ps. Pointy-eared one, if nayone was wondering... > > > A pointy-eared Hobbit? > > Well, given that the Hobbit was specifically Bilbo, yes... that > would be entirely accurate. :) > > "I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some > of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, > shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed > and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)." > JRR Tolkien's description of Bilbo, Letters #27 How do people argue that Elves ears aren't pointed against that quote? -- Donald Shepherd "When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider." - Mark Twain ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004202516 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:08:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:08:36 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: oSBC7-35318-N4-6155@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 1119a419 2f5bcc38 f48af110 bd8d748b 57c47d47 Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:08:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56221 Quoth Donald Shepherd in article : > Conrad Dunkerson says... > > "A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; > > hair short and curling (brown)." > > JRR Tolkien's description of Bilbo, Letters #27 > How do people argue that Elves ears aren't pointed against that quote? Actually, this one can pretty easily go either way. Tolkien was writing information here for illustrators of _The Hobbit_, long before his own concept of Elves had become well known. Thus, it's pretty clear that when he says "elvish" here, he is referring to the common concept of them (which potential illustrators of a fantasy book would already know well) rather than to his own private vision. Given this, it's hard to tell what this quote implies about the Quendi of Middle-earth. It can easily be argued that the illustrators who read this could legitimately conclude that Tolkien was confirming that the Elves in his book did have pointed ears (and that Tolkien would have been quite aware of this implication). On the other hand, the fact that he put "elvish" in quotes might suggest that Tolkien didn't consider that to be a _correct_ term, but that he knew it would give the right idea to those who read his letter. With this reading, the quote could be seen as evidence that Tolkien saw something wrong with calling pointed ears "elvish", and thus that _his_ Elves _weren't_ supposed to have pointed ears. In other words, this oft-cited quote doesn't help us much in the debate at all. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Lines: 209 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:40:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.97 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004218845 12.79.23.97 (Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:40:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:40:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56274 "Donald Shepherd" wrote in message news:MPG.1645787fe4ca1ce3989a72@news.uq.edu.au... > How do people argue that Elves ears aren't pointed against > that quote? Steuard gave a good answer to this, but still seems a decent excuse to update/repost my summary on the topic; Frequently Unanswered Question Do the Elves in Tolkien's stories have pointed ears? Evidence and arguments in favor of pointed elven ears; "I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. ... I picture a fairly human figure ... fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)." JRRT - Letters #27, writing to Houghton Mifflin circa March-April 1938 At the most direct level this is taken to mean that 'elvish' ears were pointed in Tolkien's stories. However, it is generally pointed out that the Elves Tolkien was referring to might be those of folklore rather than his own creations. Even this is taken as indirect support on the grounds that if JRRT was here relying on popular understanding of elven ears to clarify his use of 'pointed' (at the top like fairy tale elves rather than diamond shaped or 'pointed' in some other fashion) then the illustrators would be likely to assume that this popular understanding also applied to Tolkien's Elves and draw them accordingly. The fact that 'elvish' is given in single quote marks might be taken to indicate that Tolkien felt the term was somehow inappropriate, though whether that was because HIS elves did not have pointed ears or Bilbo's ears were not of 'elvish' origin or for some other reason would still be unclear. A third possible reading of the letter exists in which it is assumed that there is no intended connection between 'pointed' and 'elvish' - they are two SEPARATE aspects of hobbit ears. However, there do not seem to be any other commonly held perceptions of elven ears, beyond pointedness, for JRRT to have been referring to here. "LAS(1) - *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lasskwelene), cf. Q Narqelion [kwel].Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf- shaped than [?human].) LAS(2) - listen. N lhaw ears (of one person), old dual *lasu - whence singular lhewig. Q. lar, lasta- listen; lasta listening, hearing - Lastalaika 'sharp-ears', a name, cf. N Lhathleg. N lhathron hearer, listener, eavesdropper (< *la(n)sro-ndo); lhathro or lhathrado listen in, eavesdrop." The Lost Road and Other Writings, Etymologies CT 1987 working from JRRT manuscripts written circa 1936-1940 The first root is found in 'Legolas - Greenleaf' while the second appears in 'Amon Lhaw - hill of hearing'. As such the dual meaning of 'las' as both 'ear' and 'leaf' apparently due to the similar shapes of the two things is carried over into Lord of the Rings. This 'canonical' use of roots derived from the similarity purported in the Etymologies might suggest that Tolkien retained the idea. However, he could have rejected it, but never got around to analyzing what impact that might have on the terminology. Working from the same materials Douglas Anderson wrote; "In his notes on the stem LAS[1] from *lasse = 'leaf' and LAS[2] 'listen' (*lasse = 'ear'), Tolkien noted the possible relationship between the two in that Elven "ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped" than human ones." The Annotated Hobbit, Flies and Spiders (note 6) 1988 Finally, other readers have rendered the original manuscript text as; "Some think this is rel. to next and lasse = ear ? The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Hu??n." Note that the '??' between 'Hu' and 'n' is indistinct and that the sentence in question is written in a different style than the definitions for LAS above and below, implying that it was a later addition. CT concluded that these alterations went on for two or three years during the writing of LotR. It seems clear that the final word of the relevant sentence is ambiguous despite Anderson's unequivocal use of 'human'. CT wrote that his '[?human]' "indicates doubt as to the correctness of my reading" but is "better than a guess". Even leaving out this uncertain term the passage states that Quendian, and thus specifically Tolkien's, elves had ears which were "more pointed and leaf-shaped" than something. It has been argued that we do not know the kind of point or type of leaf intended, and thus that the points might have been downward or the ears maple leaf shaped (round leaves being left out as contradicting the 'pointed'). Further, human ears might also be described as 'leaf- shaped'. The point protagonists respond that it seems likely that JRRT was referring to the very common sort of leaf which is rounded at the bottom and tapers to a point at the top - in exactly the same fashion as the ears of other elves of legend. Further, the 'downward pointed' or 'maple-leaf shaped' ears would still be "pointed" and rather notably non-human. Further, if the ears WERE shaped like those of humans then there would be no conceivable reason for JRRT to have written the sentence at all. Finally, illustrators, including Pauline Baynes whose work Tolkien praised, have consistently portrayed Tolkien's Elves with pointed ears without any known objections from JRRT or his family. There is only one known illustration by Tolkien himself of an Elf in which we can even make a guess at facial features. That painting is 'Beleg Finds Flinding in Taur-na-Fuin' from 1928. It shows Beleg in the lower left corner with what might be taken for either a pointed ear or a triangular part in the black hair on the side of his head. The painting is not detailed enough to be certain of Tolkien's intent. A passable reproduction of this painting can be seen at; http://godzilla.eecs.berkeley.edu/rolozo/images_tolkien/fangorn.jpg Evidence and arguments against pointed elven ears; "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring..." JRRT - Letters #153, September 1954 "The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race." JRRT - Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth Commentary circa 1959 There are many other quotations in this same vein; demonstrating that Elves and Humans were physically the same race and could be mistaken for each other. As such it is argued that elves and humans being the same physical race must have ears of the same shape and that if they did not they could not be mistaken for each other. This argument is countered by pointing out the myriad physical differences amongst humans of our own world and even moreso in Middle Earth. Hobbits, as the best example, are described as a branch of the human race, but according to the letter quoted above DO have pointed ears. Yet they are mistaken for or compared to normal human children (due to their height) several times in the stories. If hobbits with pointed ears could be mistaken for normal humans then clearly the fact that they could be mistaken for humans does not preclude elves from also having pointed ears. Given the many variations in physical appearance amongst humans in Middle Earth it is argued that there could be humans who also had pointed ears; indeed some people in our own world have ears which can be described as 'pointed' at the top. Even if this were not the case humans and elves could still have generally different shaped ears and be mistaken for each other if the individual had long hair, were wearing a hood or were only seen from a distance. Still, Tolkien does list elven characteristics on a few occasions without mentioning pointed ears; "'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men! [if only he had] But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe;..." JRRT - Letters #144, April 1954 "Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this is a word in ancestry and original meaning suitable enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which Shakespeare played an unforgivable part, has really overloaded it with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome." JRRT - Letters #151, September 1954 "Elves has been used to translate both Quendi 'the speakers', the High- elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm... This old word was indeed the only one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this people as Men preserved... But it has been diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the swift falcon..." RotK, Appendix F II - On Translation circa 1955 These quotations are used to indicate that the Quendi should not be equated with Elves of other legends despite the use of that term as a 'translation'. At root these quotations are used to counterbalance the common perception that Elves of legend had pointed ears; this being irrelevant if JRRT did not mean for his Elves to be equated with those others. It can be seen from the quotations that JRRT indicated that the older conception of Elves, some of which were not stated to have pointed ears, was quite similar to the Quendi, only the later 'frivolous' elves being inappropriate to his vision. Finally, the possibility must be considered that even if Tolkien DID with the references quoted earlier mean to say that his Elves had pointed ears that view might have been subsequently rejected or held only for a brief time. The quotations both occur during the period JRRT was trying to reconcile the Elves of The Hobbit with those of LotR and the older mythology. Thus, in the older stories (where in fact they were called 'Gnomes' rather than Elves) they might never have been conceived of as having pointed ears - this only being imposed by the more 'fairy tale' based Elves of The Hobbit. In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:32:11 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1004225554 7412 192.168.30.113 (27 Oct 2001 23:32:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Oct 2001 23:32:34 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56287 In article , Steuard Jensen says... > Quoth Donald Shepherd in article > : > > Conrad Dunkerson says... > > > "A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; > > > hair short and curling (brown)." > > > JRR Tolkien's description of Bilbo, Letters #27 > > > How do people argue that Elves ears aren't pointed against that quote? > > Actually, this one can pretty easily go either way. Tolkien was > writing information here for illustrators of _The Hobbit_, long before > his own concept of Elves had become well known. Thus, it's pretty > clear that when he says "elvish" here, he is referring to the common > concept of them (which potential illustrators of a fantasy book would > already know well) rather than to his own private vision. Thanks to both of you for that. What about Balrog ears? Were they pointed? -- Donald Shepherd "When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider." - Mark Twain ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004225767 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:36:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:36:07 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: HxHC7-37714-N4-6433@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 8a280b36 169b251d f41c2c92 83d9d4aa 0a3ce1ab Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:36:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56279 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" in article : [Evidence against pointy-eared elves from Conrad's FUQ:] > "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they > could not breed and produce fertile offspring..." > JRRT - Letters #153, September 1954 > > "The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to > Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or > biologically) simply branches of the same race." > JRRT - Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth Commentary circa > 1959 As you point out in your discussion of these quotes, merely saying that Elves and humans are members of the same race doesn't say much about minor differences between them like ear shape. Given that, I don't know that these quotes are really the best ones to use as support for the "normal ears" side of the argument. Using them as examples could make that position look weaker than it is, despite the further discussion that you provide. Far stronger, I think, are quotes which specifically show humans being mistaken for Elves (such as Voronwe's first sight of Tuor in UT) or specifically stating that humans and Elves looked the same (I don't recall off the top of my head the source of the quote stating that human and Elven children looked almost identical, but I'm pretty sure that I've seen one in these discussions before). It might be good to quote those instead of the ones you have (or in addition to them). As I think about it, I'd agree that quoting at least one "biologically the same race" quote is helpful, despite the weaknesses that I've mentioned. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Lines: 62 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:12:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004227955 12.79.24.141 (Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:12:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:12:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56270 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:HxHC7.235$N4.6425@news.uchicago.edu... > As you point out in your discussion of these quotes, merely saying > that Elves and humans are members of the same race doesn't say much > about minor differences between them like ear shape. Given that, I > don't know that these quotes are really the best ones to use as > support for the "normal ears" side of the argument. Ok, but... take a look at some of the past debates. The argument that Elves could not have pointed ears because they were the 'same race' as humans is THE primary argument put forward against pointed ears in most discussions. > Using them as examples could make that position look weaker than > it is, despite the further discussion that you provide. Yet leaving them out would exclude the single most common argument put forth on the 'normal ears' side. > Far stronger, I think, are quotes which specifically show humans > being mistaken for Elves (such as Voronwe's first sight of Tuor in > UT) or specifically stating that humans and Elves looked the same (I > don't recall off the top of my head the source of the quote stating > that human and Elven children looked almost identical, but I'm > pretty sure that I've seen one in these discussions before). Hmmm... actually I had to dig up the quotations I used myself because the 'elves looked like humans' argument isn't usually supported by quotations (mind you, there ARE quotations supportive of it - they just haven't commonly been used in my experience). However, how are those particular cases any stronger than the ones included? The races can be mistaken for each other, but that still doesn't 'say much about minor differences between them like ear shape'. I don't know if I've ever seen a quotation saying that the 'two races looked almost identical'... if there is one it should obviously be included, but every time I can recall it having been mentioned no actual quotation was ever supplied. > It might be good to quote those instead of the ones you have (or > in addition to them). I'll look around for some specific cases of such quotations. Unlike the Balrog essays I mostly just took existing evidence for this summary rather than trying to dig everything up myself. I'll include anything supportive of either side that is presented, but I haven't felt motivated to do weeks worth of searching through the texts to locate evidence which hasn't been quoted/debated thoroughly before. For those who don't know - I am pretty firmly in the 'pro points' camp... just about the only contrary arguments I consider 'solid' are that the best evidence for points all occurs during the time Tolkien was reconciling his 'Silmarillion' races with 'The Hobbit' - and thus the Quendi might have been 'pointified' only temporarily in keeping with 'fairy tale lore'. Any statement that actually said 'Elves looked just like humans' would be pretty good too, but I can't recall having ever seen one (as opposed to 'Elves and humans were the same race' or 'Human XYZ was mistaken for an elf'). ###### From: "Venya" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:38:56 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9rfjvn$laa$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-81-91.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56297 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:oSBC7.211$N4.5887@news.uchicago.edu... > > How do people argue that Elves ears aren't pointed against that quote? > > Actually, this one can pretty easily go either way. Tolkien was > writing information here for illustrators of _The Hobbit_, long before > his own concept of Elves had become well known. Thus, it's pretty > clear that when he says "elvish" here, he is referring to the common > concept of them (which potential illustrators of a fantasy book would > already know well) rather than to his own private vision. Surely in this case he would have written "elfish" or more probably "elfin"? I've always thought that "elvish" with a "v" was Tolkien's own invention, or at the least a highly unusual variation which he adopted to refer exclusively to his own creations. When FotR was first produced he considered the change of "elvish" to "elfin" as the "worst of all" the corrections undertaken by his well-meaning publishers. - Venya ###### From: "Iaan Spence" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Lines: 223 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <0dKC7.17984$NP.2985951@news20.bellglobal.com> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:38:15 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.209.179.228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1004236732 216.209.179.228 (Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:38:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:38:52 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56295 OK bare with me on this point......I have read this post ...the only logical assumption that can follow from it is simply that Tolkiens Elves have Pointed ears. He used the term "Elvish" therefore he must have been referring to "his" elves ears. Unless I am terribly mistaken...and please excuse me if I am, but I believe Tolkien stated somewhere the only proper English form for the plural of elf is elfs, the proper adjective is Elfish. But in his books he chooses to use elvish and dwarvish exclusively. Therefore doesn't he have to be talking about "his" elves?? If so....their ears must be pointed! Please your inputs would be appreciated. "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:xRFC7.143601$3d2.4773397@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Donald Shepherd" wrote in > message news:MPG.1645787fe4ca1ce3989a72@news.uq.edu.au... > > > How do people argue that Elves ears aren't pointed against > > that quote? > > Steuard gave a good answer to this, but still seems a decent excuse > to update/repost my summary on the topic; > > > Frequently Unanswered Question > Do the Elves in Tolkien's stories have pointed ears? > > Evidence and arguments in favor of pointed elven ears; > > "I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various > attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. ... I > picture a fairly human figure ... fattish in the stomach, shortish in > the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; > hair short and curling (brown)." > JRRT - Letters #27, writing to Houghton Mifflin circa March-April 1938 > > > At the most direct level this is taken to mean that 'elvish' ears were > pointed in Tolkien's stories. However, it is generally pointed out > that the Elves Tolkien was referring to might be those of folklore > rather than his own creations. Even this is taken as indirect support > on the grounds that if JRRT was here relying on popular understanding > of elven ears to clarify his use of 'pointed' (at the top like fairy > tale elves rather than diamond shaped or 'pointed' in some other > fashion) then the illustrators would be likely to assume that this > popular understanding also applied to Tolkien's Elves and draw them > accordingly. The fact that 'elvish' is given in single quote marks > might be taken to indicate that Tolkien felt the term was somehow > inappropriate, though whether that was because HIS elves did not have > pointed ears or Bilbo's ears were not of 'elvish' origin or for some > other reason would still be unclear. A third possible reading of the > letter exists in which it is assumed that there is no intended > connection between 'pointed' and 'elvish' - they are two SEPARATE > aspects of hobbit ears. However, there do not seem to be any other > commonly held perceptions of elven ears, beyond pointedness, for JRRT > to have been referring to here. > > > "LAS(1) - *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, > autumn, N lhasbelin (*lasskwelene), cf. Q Narqelion [kwel].Lhasgalen > Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the > next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf- > shaped than [?human].) > > LAS(2) - listen. N lhaw ears (of one person), old dual *lasu - whence > singular lhewig. Q. lar, lasta- listen; lasta listening, hearing - > Lastalaika 'sharp-ears', a name, cf. N Lhathleg. N lhathron hearer, > listener, eavesdropper (< *la(n)sro-ndo); lhathro or lhathrado listen > in, eavesdrop." > The Lost Road and Other Writings, Etymologies > CT 1987 working from JRRT manuscripts written circa 1936-1940 > > The first root is found in 'Legolas - Greenleaf' while the second > appears in 'Amon Lhaw - hill of hearing'. As such the dual meaning of > 'las' as both 'ear' and 'leaf' apparently due to the similar shapes of > the two things is carried over into Lord of the Rings. This > 'canonical' use of roots derived from the similarity purported in > the Etymologies might suggest that Tolkien retained the idea. However, > he could have rejected it, but never got around to analyzing what > impact that might have on the terminology. > > Working from the same materials Douglas Anderson wrote; > "In his notes on the stem LAS[1] from *lasse = 'leaf' and LAS[2] > 'listen' (*lasse = 'ear'), Tolkien noted the possible relationship > between the two in that Elven "ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped" > than human ones." > The Annotated Hobbit, Flies and Spiders (note 6) 1988 > > Finally, other readers have rendered the original manuscript text as; > "Some think this is rel. to next and lasse = ear ? The Quendian ears > were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Hu??n." > Note that the '??' between 'Hu' and 'n' is indistinct and that the > sentence in question is written in a different style than the > definitions for LAS above and below, implying that it was a later > addition. CT concluded that these alterations went on for two or three > years during the writing of LotR. > > > It seems clear that the final word of the relevant sentence is > ambiguous despite Anderson's unequivocal use of 'human'. CT wrote that > his '[?human]' "indicates doubt as to the correctness of my reading" > but is "better than a guess". Even leaving out this uncertain term the > passage states that Quendian, and thus specifically Tolkien's, elves > had ears which were "more pointed and leaf-shaped" than something. It > has been argued that we do not know the kind of point or type of leaf > intended, and thus that the points might have been downward or the ears > maple leaf shaped (round leaves being left out as contradicting the > 'pointed'). Further, human ears might also be described as 'leaf- > shaped'. The point protagonists respond that it seems likely that JRRT > was referring to the very common sort of leaf which is rounded at the > bottom and tapers to a point at the top - in exactly the same fashion > as the ears of other elves of legend. Further, the 'downward pointed' > or 'maple-leaf shaped' ears would still be "pointed" and rather notably > non-human. Further, if the ears WERE shaped like those of humans then > there would be no conceivable reason for JRRT to have written the > sentence at all. > > Finally, illustrators, including Pauline Baynes whose work Tolkien > praised, have consistently portrayed Tolkien's Elves with pointed ears > without any known objections from JRRT or his family. There is only > one known illustration by Tolkien himself of an Elf in which we can > even make a guess at facial features. That painting is 'Beleg Finds > Flinding in Taur-na-Fuin' from 1928. It shows Beleg in the lower left > corner with what might be taken for either a pointed ear or a > triangular part in the black hair on the side of his head. The > painting is not detailed enough to be certain of Tolkien's intent. A > passable reproduction of this painting can be seen at; > > http://godzilla.eecs.berkeley.edu/rolozo/images_tolkien/fangorn.jpg > > > Evidence and arguments against pointed elven ears; > > "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they > could not breed and produce fertile offspring..." > JRRT - Letters #153, September 1954 > > "The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to > Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or > biologically) simply branches of the same race." > JRRT - Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth Commentary circa > 1959 > > > There are many other quotations in this same vein; demonstrating that > Elves and Humans were physically the same race and could be mistaken > for each other. As such it is argued that elves and humans being the > same physical race must have ears of the same shape and that if they > did not they could not be mistaken for each other. This argument is > countered by pointing out the myriad physical differences amongst > humans of our own world and even moreso in Middle Earth. Hobbits, as > the best example, are described as a branch of the human race, but > according to the letter quoted above DO have pointed ears. Yet they > are mistaken for or compared to normal human children (due to their > height) several times in the stories. If hobbits with pointed ears > could be mistaken for normal humans then clearly the fact that they > could be mistaken for humans does not preclude elves from also having > pointed ears. Given the many variations in physical appearance amongst > humans in Middle Earth it is argued that there could be humans who also > had pointed ears; indeed some people in our own world have ears which > can be described as 'pointed' at the top. Even if this were not the > case humans and elves could still have generally different shaped ears > and be mistaken for each other if the individual had long hair, were > wearing a hood or were only seen from a distance. Still, Tolkien does > list elven characteristics on a few occasions without mentioning > pointed ears; > > "'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but > originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race > similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in > former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their > differences from Men! [if only he had] But I suppose that the Quendi > are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and > Fairies of Europe;..." > JRRT - Letters #144, April 1954 > > "Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this is a word in > ancestry and original meaning suitable enough. But the disastrous > debasement of this word, in which Shakespeare played an unforgivable > part, has really overloaded it with regrettable tones, which are too > much to overcome." > JRRT - Letters #151, September 1954 > > "Elves has been used to translate both Quendi 'the speakers', the High- > elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds > that sought for the Undying Realm... This old word was indeed the only > one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this > people as Men preserved... But it has been diminished, and to many it > may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi > of old as are butterflies to the swift falcon..." > RotK, Appendix F II - On Translation circa 1955 > > > These quotations are used to indicate that the Quendi should not be > equated with Elves of other legends despite the use of that term as a > 'translation'. At root these quotations are used to counterbalance the > common perception that Elves of legend had pointed ears; this being > irrelevant if JRRT did not mean for his Elves to be equated with those > others. It can be seen from the quotations that JRRT indicated that > the older conception of Elves, some of which were not stated to have > pointed ears, was quite similar to the Quendi, only the later > 'frivolous' elves being inappropriate to his vision. > > Finally, the possibility must be considered that even if Tolkien DID > with the references quoted earlier mean to say that his Elves had > pointed ears that view might have been subsequently rejected or held > only for a brief time. The quotations both occur during the period > JRRT was trying to reconcile the Elves of The Hobbit with those of LotR > and the older mythology. Thus, in the older stories (where in fact > they were called 'Gnomes' rather than Elves) they might never have been > conceived of as having pointed ears - this only being imposed by the > more 'fairy tale' based Elves of The Hobbit. > > > > In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on > this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving > out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is > ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' > writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. > > > ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <0dKC7.17984$NP.2985951@news20.bellglobal.com> Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:22:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1004278959 12.79.22.241 (Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:22:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:22:39 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56317 "Iaan Spence" wrote in message news:0dKC7.17984$NP.2985951@news20.bellglobal.com... > He used the term "Elvish" therefore he must have been referring to > "his" elves ears. Unless I am terribly mistaken...and please excuse > me if I am, but I believe Tolkien stated somewhere the only proper > English form for the plural of elf is elfs, the proper adjective is > Elfish. But in his books he chooses to use elvish and dwarvish > exclusively. Therefore doesn't he have to be talking about "his" > elves?? If so....their ears must be pointed! Hmm... a creative argument, but there are a number of issues with it; 1: All of the passages I can recall on the 'fs' vs 'ves' question have been in reference to 'dwarfs' vs 'dwarves' rather than 'elves'. This is likely because; 2: The form 'elves' was actually accepted usage before Tolkien. It was only with 'dwarves' that he created a new form. He noted in one letter that part of the appeal of 'dwarves' was that it matched 'elves' in form. 3: He used the term 'elves' in other instances specifically to refer to such creatures outside his stories; "But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe;..." JRRT - Letters #144, April 1954 He also used 'Dwarves' in reference to the 'dwarfs' of Grimm's fairy tales. So, an interesting new argument, but I don't think it is enough to 'prove' that the ears were pointed. He could still have been using 'elvish' in reference to 'elfs' of legend and even if he was not it might only have been in reference to the somewhat more flighty Elves of 'The Hobbit' and not meant to imply to those of his wider Middle- earth. Mind you, I don't think that is the case, but the arguments can be made. ###### User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) From: Paul Dippolito Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <0dKC7.17984$NP.2985951@news20.bellglobal.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:36:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.168.20.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1004294178 24.168.20.196 (Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:36:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:36:18 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nyccyc01!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56345 Iaan Spence wrote (in part): OK bare with me on this point......I have read this post ...the only logical assumption that can follow from it is simply that Tolkiens Elves have Pointed ears. He used the term "Elvish" therefore he must have been referring to "his" elves ears. Unless I am terribly mistaken...and please excuse me if I am, but I believe Tolkien stated somewhere the only proper English form for the plural of elf is elfs, the proper adjective is Elfish. But in his books he chooses to use elvish and dwarvish exclusively. Therefore doesn't he have to be talking about "his" elves?? If so....their ears must be pointed! Please your inputs would be appreciated. ------------ I'm perfectly willing to accept Elves with pointed ears--it seems to fit with the consensus of Tolkien illustrators over the years, as well as with descriptions given us by Tolkien. Of course, when Elves are seen on screen, many will see pointed ears and immediately think "Vulcan." This can't be avoided; pointed ears are simply the easiest way to render a character humanoid, but not quite human. More important, I think, is a sense of the ethereal quality of Elves. I have always seen them as being somewhat smaller and more slightly built than men (think Legolas running atop the deep snow below Caradhras), not as physically powerful but, as Tolkien puts it "hardier;" more resistant to physical injury and extremes of climate. An illustrator (or filmmaker) should present them with a quality both childlike and ancient. Not an easy task. As far as their interbreeding with humans, I think Tolkien used this mainly as a dramatic device, in the spirit in which gods in the classical tradition mated pretty freely with us mortals. I hesitate to make too much of the biological implications of this. ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: 28 Oct 2001 11:43:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.0.244.67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1004298219 20757 127.0.0.1 (28 Oct 2001 19:43:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Oct 2001 19:43:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56381 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:... > "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message > news:HxHC7.235$N4.6425@news.uchicago.edu... > > > > Far stronger, I think, are quotes which specifically show humans > > being mistaken for Elves (such as Voronwe's first sight of Tuor in > > UT) or specifically stating that humans and Elves looked the same (I > > don't recall off the top of my head the source of the quote stating > > that human and Elven children looked almost identical, but I'm > > pretty sure that I've seen one in these discussions before). > > Hmmm... actually I had to dig up the quotations I used myself because > the 'elves looked like humans' argument isn't usually supported by > quotations (mind you, there ARE quotations supportive of it - they > just haven't commonly been used in my experience). However, how are > those particular cases any stronger than the ones included? The races > can be mistaken for each other, but that still doesn't 'say much about > minor differences between them like ear shape'. I don't know if I've > ever seen a quotation saying that the 'two races looked almost > identical'... if there is one it should obviously be included, but > every time I can recall it having been mentioned no actual quotation > was ever supplied. The quote Steuard is trying to recall is from 'Laws and Customs' MROW pgs. 209-210: 'there was less difference between the Two Kindreds in their youth...a man who watched elf-children at play might believe them to be children of Men'. While the Tuor I.D. is interesting a better one is Neinor being mistaken as a Elf while in the company of Mablung on the way to Nargothrond. Tar-Elenion ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004365334 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:22:14 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:22:14 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: qCdD7-51428-N4-8603@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 224038e1 87cc013d 9a7f9538 2a2ddf03 7fe181cd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:22:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56357 Quoth tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) in article : > The quote Steuard is trying to recall is from 'Laws and Customs' > MROW pgs. 209-210: 'there was less difference between the Two > Kindreds in their youth...a man who watched elf-children at play > might believe them to be children of Men'. Thank you! That's precisely it. :) Of course, a potential counter-argument that someone brought up the last time this was mentioned was that Elves might develop pointed ears as a sign of sexual maturity, at the same time that they started growing breasts and/or body hair. That would raise all sorts of interesting questions about Elvish hairstyles ("Woah! Look at the babe with her hair pulled back! What a tramp!"). :) It could also explain why so few Elvish men seemed to be attracted to human women: they'd feel like pedophiles chasing after someone without pointed ears. :) Seriously, though, I'm glad that the quote I was thinking of does exist (and I'm glad that someone actually had time to look it up!). I'm still of the "slightly pointed" opinion myself, but I like to see the best potential counter-arguments being used rather than weak, easily countered ones. > While the Tuor I.D. is interesting a better one is Neinor being > mistaken as a Elf while in the company of Mablung on the way to > Nargothrond. I'd forgotten that one. I assume it's from the UT version of the story? Steuard Jensen ###### From: Ronald O. Christian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Message-ID: References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.16.210.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.sttln1.wa.home.com 1004370491 24.16.210.216 (Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:48:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:48:11 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.sttln1.wa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56374 On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:32:11 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: >What about Balrog ears? Were they pointed? They were huge and bat-like, and stuck out like wings. Ron www.europa.com/~ronc "If UN peacekeeping had been involved during the US civil war, it'd still be going on today." ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:54:08 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1004370873 30791 192.168.30.113 (29 Oct 2001 15:54:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 2001 15:54:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56365 In article , Ronald O. Christian says... > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:32:11 +1000, Donald Shepherd > wrote: > >What about Balrog ears? Were they pointed? > > They were huge and bat-like, and stuck out like wings. That would really explain a lot... -- Donald Shepherd "When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider." - Mark Twain ###### From: mcjabba@iname.com (Jabba) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: 29 Oct 2001 12:11:43 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5882b57b.0110291211.5d721dfb@posting.google.com> References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <%OgC7.956$y02.3238@nntpserver.swip.net> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <0dKC7.17984$NP.2985951@news20.bellglobal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.215.121.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1004386303 11816 127.0.0.1 (29 Oct 2001 20:11:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 2001 20:11:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56417 Paul Dippolito wrote in message news:... >> Of course, when Elves are seen on screen, many will see pointed ears and > immediately think "Vulcan." This can't be avoided; pointed ears are simply > the easiest way to render a character humanoid, but not quite human. Well, many have already seen the Vulcans and thought "Elves!".There was much speculation at the beginning of the ST series about the link between Vulcans and Elves, them Vulcans being the ones that were leading the 'barbarian' humans into civilisations by hand, pointed ears and all, but Rodenberry never publicly admitted it, for what I know. And I agree that rendering Tolkien's Elves on screen is a seemingly impossible task.Legolas looks *very* childish, not mature at all;Liz Tyler's beauty is too fleshy and sensual;Elrond looks too old;Cate Blanchet seems ok.But they don't share a 'common aura' of 'elvish beauty' from what I saw in the trailers.Maybe the movie will clear that. Jabba ###### Message-ID: <3BDDBB87.4CAFD98@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.134.71 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 1004387338 ST000 64.198.134.71 (Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:28:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:28:58 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSUGWMOC\K]]PF@_JCCDN_HAQB^H@IPDLXUNNHLHEQR@ETUCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:28:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56393 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) in article > : > > The quote Steuard is trying to recall is from 'Laws and Customs' > > MROW pgs. 209-210: 'there was less difference between the Two > > Kindreds in their youth...a man who watched elf-children at play > > might believe them to be children of Men'. > > Thank you! That's precisely it. :) Of course, a potential > counter-argument that someone brought up the last time this was > mentioned was that Elves might develop pointed ears as a sign of > sexual maturity, at the same time that they started growing breasts > and/or body hair. That would raise all sorts of interesting questions > about Elvish hairstyles ("Woah! Look at the babe with her hair pulled > back! What a tramp!"). :) It could also explain why so few Elvish men > seemed to be attracted to human women: they'd feel like pedophiles > chasing after someone without pointed ears. :) > > Seriously, though, I'm glad that the quote I was thinking of does > exist (and I'm glad that someone actually had time to look it up!). > I'm still of the "slightly pointed" opinion myself, but I like to see > the best potential counter-arguments being used rather than weak, > easily countered ones. > > > While the Tuor I.D. is interesting a better one is Neinor being > > mistaken as a Elf while in the company of Mablung on the way to > > Nargothrond. > > I'd forgotten that one. I assume it's from the UT version of the > story? > Steuard Jensen I hate to interject RL into a Tolkien discussion, especislly since there are so few of them these days, but try taking a good look at the people around you and the ones you see on TV or pass on the street. Ear shape varies quite a good deal, and there are many people walking around with slightly pointed ears. I agree that, if Elvish ears are pointed like Vulcan ears, it would be virtually impossible to mistake one for the other. If, however, Elvish ears are only slightly more pointed than human ears, then it seems quite feasible. grimgard ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BDDBB87.4CAFD98@prodigy.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 34 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1004398474 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:34:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:34:34 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: eIlD7-56350-N4-10300@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 90b742b1 37ed6a6e 16979fb0 26e6afb0 b3195d57 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:34:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56405 Quoth grimgard in article <3BDDBB87.4CAFD98@prodigy.net>: > I hate to interject RL into a Tolkien discussion, especislly since > there are so few of them these days, but try taking a good look at > the people around you and the ones you see on TV or pass on the > street. Ear shape varies quite a good deal, and there are many > people walking around with slightly pointed ears. But that's an on-topic interjection of real life, so it's okay. :) I agree with this completely, which is why I've generally said in the past that I believe Elves' ears tended to be slightly more pointed than human ears, but generally within the bounds of human norms. To draw a little frequency plot: :) Human ^ *** | ** ** | * * | ** ** | *** *** | **** ******** Round <-------------------------------> Pointy | ******** **** | *** *** | ** ** | * * | ** ** v *** Elvish The farther from the center line, the more common the trait. Does this little plot make any sense? :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: amitkotwal@yahoo.com (Amit Kotwal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: 30 Oct 2001 05:03:57 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7724cdbc.0110300503.6e5c8eb@posting.google.com> References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.197.74.150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1004447037 28579 127.0.0.1 (30 Oct 2001 13:03:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 2001 13:03:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56467 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > > Far stronger, I think, are quotes which specifically show humans being > mistaken for Elves (such as Voronwe's first sight of Tuor in UT) Hmm...I'm not sure, but didn't Voronwe see Tuor at a distance first? When he came closer, he realised that Tuor was a Man, and not an Elf as he had first thought. Now, this is not evidence either way, but hows this for a scenario? Voronwe sees Tuor at a distance (wearing Turgon's armour, remember) and mistakes him for an elf. Comes closer, notes the absence of pointed ears, and says "Hey! Thats no elf!" Personally, I don't think elves had pointed ears, but I really can't remember any quote about it in LOTR, Silm or UT. Anything in HoME or Letters? - Amit ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 30 Oct 2001 23:30:32 GMT References: <7724cdbc.0110300503.6e5c8eb@posting.google.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Message-ID: <20011030183032.10701.00000720@nso-mv.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56527 In article <7724cdbc.0110300503.6e5c8eb@posting.google.com>, amitkotwal@yahoo.com (Amit Kotwal) writes: >> >> Far stronger, I think, are quotes which specifically show humans being >> mistaken for Elves (such as Voronwe's first sight of Tuor in UT) > > > >Hmm...I'm not sure, but didn't Voronwe see Tuor at a distance first? >When he came closer, he realised that Tuor was a Man, and not an Elf >as he had first thought. > >Now, this is not evidence either way, but hows this for a scenario? >Voronwe sees Tuor at a distance (wearing Turgon's armour, remember) >and mistakes him for an elf. Comes closer, notes the absence of >pointed ears, and says "Hey! Thats no elf!" > >Personally, I don't think elves had pointed ears, but I really can't >remember any quote about it in LOTR, Silm or UT. Anything in HoME or >Letters? If he had long hair - which is likely - then its not surprising he wouldn't notice the ears one way or the other. Russ ###### Message-ID: <3BDF6439.21A62859@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <3BDDBB87.4CAFD98@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.135.239 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 1004496058 ST000 64.198.135.239 (Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:40:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:40:58 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSUGWMOC\K]]PF@_JCCDN_HAQB^H@IPDLXUNNHLHEQR@ETUCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:40:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:56482 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth grimgard in article > <3BDDBB87.4CAFD98@prodigy.net>: > > I hate to interject RL into a Tolkien discussion, especislly since > > there are so few of them these days, but try taking a good look at > > the people around you and the ones you see on TV or pass on the > > street. Ear shape varies quite a good deal, and there are many > > people walking around with slightly pointed ears. > > But that's an on-topic interjection of real life, so it's okay. :) I > agree with this completely, which is why I've generally said in the > past that I believe Elves' ears tended to be slightly more pointed > than human ears, but generally within the bounds of human norms. > > To draw a little frequency plot: :) > > Human > ^ *** > | ** ** > | * * > | ** ** > | *** *** > | **** ******** > Round <-------------------------------> Pointy > | ******** **** > | *** *** > | ** ** > | * * > | ** ** > v *** > Elvish > > The farther from the center line, the more common the trait. Does > this little plot make any sense? :) > Steuard Jensen With most of the information on the left side of the graphic, I'm afraid I'd have to conclude that it's a communist plot. >-/ grimgard ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: 17 Nov 2001 21:35:55 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9t76qb$4b9$1@panix2.panix.com> References: <9rbspl$sgunc$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> <5VAC7.143291$3d2.4741897@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1006050955 15383 166.84.1.2 (18 Nov 2001 02:35:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2001 02:35:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58729 In article , Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on >this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving >out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is >ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' >writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. I was distressed when I realized that the elves in the movie would have pointed ears, since that was never my image of them. Having read through this thread I feel a bit better, since it is clear that Tolkien was aware of the popular image of pointy-eared elves and simply didn't care enough about the matter to make a definitive statement. He certainly had enough chances to do so! -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:16:13 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 12 Message-ID: <22924-3BF8878D-216@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <9t76qb$4b9$1@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhReZH83dMiU4Nua6OUKWN5i42ouJQIUMGMTpDhVTf6Y9vm0qYSv599uyNQ= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58828 Strange thought: When Tolkien made those casual little references to "leaf-shaped" elf ears, you don't suppose he was thinking of oak leaves, do you? Or yew leaves? Windy tuck & roll... remember, tuck & roll ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Elvish Ears Yet Again (WAs Re: Hobbit Dance-Adventure) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:24:02 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9t76qb$4b9$1@panix2.panix.com> <22924-3BF8878D-216@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:58960 On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:16:13 -0700 (MST), WindSparrow@webtv.net wrote: >Strange thought: When Tolkien made those casual little references to >"leaf-shaped" elf ears, you don't suppose he was thinking of oak leaves, >do you? Or yew leaves? > >Windy >tuck & roll... remember, tuck & roll > Tulip trees ... the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Never try to impress a woman because if you do, you'll have to keep up that standard the rest of your life" -- W. C. Fields