From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:21:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.88.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1002554516 63.14.88.137 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:21:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:21:56 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54105 From "The Two Towers": 'Because Aragorn is descended in direct lineage, father to father, from Isildur's Elendil's son himself. And the sword that he bears was Elendil's sword.' A murmur of astonishment ran through all the ring of men. Some cried aloud: 'The sword of Elendil! The sword of Elendil comes to Minas Tirith! Great tidings!' But Faramir's face was unmoved. 'Maybe," he said. "But so great a claim will need to be established, and clear proofs will be required, should this Aragorn ever come to Minas Tirith. He had not come, nor any of your company, when I set out six days ago.' And also Denethor's words: "Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." I have been wondering for several years now exactly what sort of proof Aragorn would have needed to submit in order to claim the kingship. Birth records? Elrond's personal testimony? The ME equivalent of a DNA test? :) Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? Mnkohrz ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 08:48:34 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c17.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54097 >I have been wondering for several years now exactly what sort of proof >Aragorn would have needed to submit in order to claim the kingship. >Birth records? Elrond's personal testimony? The ME equivalent of a >DNA test? :) Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides >the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? in the hands of the king is a healer denethor was no longer capable of voicing objkections and faramir acknowledged aragorn when faramir was healed from his infection imrahil and the rest of the gondor nobs accepted him from his prowess in battle eormer was easily impressed ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: 08 Oct 2001 22:06:05 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6uelodyk0i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1002571565 407 10.0.3.2 (8 Oct 2001 20:06:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 20:06:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54113 mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: > eormer was easily impressed Aragorn fought next to Eomer at Helms Deep. So he has seen him in action. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Oct 2001 18:59:45 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Message-ID: <20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54156 In article , mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: >>I have been wondering for several years now exactly what sort of proof >>Aragorn would have needed to submit in order to claim the kingship. >>Birth records? Elrond's personal testimony? The ME equivalent of a >>DNA test? :) Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides >>the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? > >in the hands of the king is a healer > >denethor was no longer capable of voicing objkections >and faramir acknowledged aragorn when faramir was healed from his infection >imrahil and the rest of the gondor nobs accepted him from his prowess in >battle >eormer was easily impressed His being able to awaken and lead the deam men of Dunharrow was proof positive and witnessed by many. Russ ###### From: "Stefan Walker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com> Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:19:59 +0100 Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.119.19.198 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:19:59 BST Message-ID: <1002568799.47388.1@eos.uk.clara.net> Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!eos.uk.clara.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54141 "Russ" wrote in message news:20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com... > In article , > mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: > > >>I have been wondering for several years now exactly what sort of proof > >>Aragorn would have needed to submit in order to claim the kingship. > >>Birth records? Elrond's personal testimony? The ME equivalent of a > >>DNA test? :) Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides > >>the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? > > > >in the hands of the king is a healer > > > >denethor was no longer capable of voicing objkections > >and faramir acknowledged aragorn when faramir was healed from his infection > >imrahil and the rest of the gondor nobs accepted him from his prowess in > >battle > >eormer was easily impressed > > His being able to awaken and lead the deam men of Dunharrow was proof positive > and witnessed by many. > Also the fact he had long hair...That's enough proof for others.. ###### From: "David Flood" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:54:51 +0100 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9pt3nm$684$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-128.nuada.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1002574390 6404 62.137.249.128 (8 Oct 2001 20:53:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 20:53:10 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54144 "Russ" wrote in message news:20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com... > In article , > mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: > > >>I have been wondering for several years now exactly what sort of proof > >>Aragorn would have needed to submit in order to claim the kingship. > >>Birth records? Elrond's personal testimony? The ME equivalent of a > >>DNA test? :) Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides > >>the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? > > > >in the hands of the king is a healer > > > >denethor was no longer capable of voicing objkections > >and faramir acknowledged aragorn when faramir was healed from his infection > >imrahil and the rest of the gondor nobs accepted him from his prowess in > >battle > >eormer was easily impressed > > His being able to awaken and lead the deam men of Dunharrow was proof positive > and witnessed by many. As seen on CNN? You *do* know how these right-wingers manipulate the media through spin-doctoring? And as for 'collateral damage' to the slave population in the Fall of Barad-dur... :) D. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:48:41 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com> <1002568799.47388.1@eos.uk.clara.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1002584938 6477 192.168.30.113 (8 Oct 2001 23:48:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 23:48:58 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54177 In article <1002568799.47388.1@eos.uk.clara.net>, Stefan Walker says... > > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20011008145945.12618.00001634@nso-mq.aol.com... > > In article , > > mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: > > > > >>I have been wondering for several years now exactly what sort of proof > > >>Aragorn would have needed to submit in order to claim the kingship. > > >>Birth records? Elrond's personal testimony? The ME equivalent of a > > >>DNA test? :) Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides > > >>the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? > > > > > >in the hands of the king is a healer > > > > > >denethor was no longer capable of voicing objkections > > >and faramir acknowledged aragorn when faramir was healed from his > infection > > >imrahil and the rest of the gondor nobs accepted him from his prowess in > > >battle > > >eormer was easily impressed > > > > His being able to awaken and lead the deam men of Dunharrow was proof > positive > > and witnessed by many. > > > Also the fact he had long hair...That's enough proof for others.. I didn't know that so many of my friends were descended from Aragorn. -- Donald Shepherd "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:08:05 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <6uelodyk0i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c62.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54198 In article <6uelodyk0i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: > >> eormer was easily impressed > >Aragorn fought next to Eomer at Helms Deep. So he has seen him in action. eomer was a country rube compared to people like imrahil he was also impressed by boromir ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Message-ID: <3bc283b5.2287719@news.powersurfr.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 05:00:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.109.100.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 1002603348 24.109.100.252 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:55:48 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:55:48 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54168 On Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:21:56 GMT, Michael Kohrs wrote, in part: >Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides >the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? Well, that happened to work things out neatly in the particular case. But comparing the "Sword that was broken" with ancient records and drawings, kept under seal among the royal records, might have been the sort of thing that would have happened under more prosaic circumstances. And there may have been other proofs in his posession. Also, having the ability to operate a palantir and resist Sauron shows that kings do have abilities beyond those of other men, which, if they are not proof, would at least enable them to rally others behind them. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: "Noora " Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:59:26 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG Lines: 37 Message-ID: <13bbe65bcbd5318cae44ba4bdbe46a00.25386@mygate.mailgate.org> References: <3bc283b5.2287719@news.powersurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u35209.win.hut.fi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.mailgate.org 1002621761 2605 193.167.5.144 (Tue Oct 9 14:59:26 2001) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mailgate.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:59:26 +0000 (UTC) Injector-Info: news.mailgate.org; posting-host=u35209.win.hut.fi; posting-account=25386; posting-date=1002621761 User-Agent: Mailgate Web Server X-URL: http://www.Mailgate.ORG Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!web2news!u35209.win.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54143 "John Savard" wrote in message news:3bc283b5.2287719@news.powersurfr.com... > On Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:21:56 GMT, Michael Kohrs > wrote, in part: > > >Has Tolkien ever addressed this particular point besides > >the "hands of the king are the hands of the healer" line? > > Well, that happened to work things out neatly in the particular case. > > But comparing the "Sword that was broken" with ancient records and > drawings, kept under seal among the royal records, might have been the > sort of thing that would have happened under more prosaic > circumstances. And there may have been other proofs in his posession. the ring of Barahir? I think remember it being said somewhere those two objects were the only ones left. in the appendix, to my memory. it's been some time since I last read LoTR though... > Also, having the ability to operate a palantir and resist Sauron shows > that kings do have abilities beyond those of other men, which, if they > are not proof, would at least enable them to rally others behind them. so... if he had been able to do those things without being the heir of Isildur, would he still have become the king of Arnor and Gondor? with all respect, I think abilities mean more than bloodline. in other words, do kings have special abilies because they are kings or are they kings because of their special abilitiees? - Noora -- Posted from u35209.win.hut.fi [193.167.5.144] via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:18:49 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 11 Message-ID: <17090-3BC2F939-354@storefull-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <13bbe65bcbd5318cae44ba4bdbe46a00.25386@mygate.mailgate.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQaFAQRbq0NvPC9hedI4YPDnqmAdwIVALojOGSKWfb56OpScBICQeXBad+W Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54123 >in other words, do kings have special >abilies because they are kings or are >they kings because of their special >abilitiees? >- Noora The short answer is "Yes, always". Windy who is sure that someone will fill you in on the long answer ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:31:07 -0400 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3BC2FC1A.C75772C7@erols.com> References: <6uelodyk0i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: spamkiller@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa1jiKxg/cgGDDIyPI25e7mXKKrC8tGoMsv0EeqtVBPC4vqsmUpWAiy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2001 16:16:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54119 morgan mair fheal made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force: > In article <6uelodyk0i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > wrote: > >mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) writes: > >> eormer was easily impressed > > > >Aragorn fought next to Eomer at Helms Deep. So he has seen him in action. > > eomer was a country rube compared to people like imrahil > he was also impressed by boromir Boromir impressed a lot of people, I think. Anyway, why's that so bad? Boromir was mostly good, IMO. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell "Oh, I see. You suddenly remembered you were witness to a murder." Cadfael, The Potter's Field ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:53:34 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9pvh9e$629$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3bc283b5.2287719@news.powersurfr.com> <13bbe65bcbd5318cae44ba4bdbe46a00.25386@mygate.mailgate.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u055.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1002653806 6217 62.103.251.55 (9 Oct 2001 18:56:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:56:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54219 Noora wrote in message news:13bbe65bcbd5318cae44ba4bdbe46a00.25386@mygate.mailgate.org... > with all respect, I > think abilities mean more than bloodline. > in other words, do kings have special abilies because they are kings or are > they > kings because of their special abilitiees? Where the Palantir is concerned, that he was the rightful user (by bloodline) helped him have the power to use it. Likewise he was able to summon the dead by the fact of his being the heir of Isildur. So, yeah, abilities mean more than bloodline, as evidenced by crappy kings that were likewise descended from Elendil. But in Tolkien's universe, bloodline also seems to help. Aris Katsaris ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:24:16 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 20 Message-ID: <29593-3BC35CF0-290@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <3BC2FC1A.C75772C7@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRsskFLtY09/fEs41z3fFf+HnhACwIVAIqX1VK2W+hJtskTAVOamAj37+fD Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54216 >Boromir impressed a lot of people, I >think. Anyway, why's that so bad? >Boromir was mostly good, IMO. >Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of >Rivendell I can hear the movie dialogue now: "It just so happens that your friend here is only mostly good." "Take it easy on him, he's been mostly good all day." Oh, wait... wrong movie... nevermind. Sorry, couldn't help it. ;-) Windy who is diligently searching for a table to hide under while she cackles to herself ###### Message-ID: <3BC5AC5A.58644793@uchicago.edu> From: Roberto Ullfig Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.0.36 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1002810458 128.135.0.36 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:27:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:27:38 CDT X-SessionID: u%hx7-16469-N4-5325@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 18529bce 1f794f74 aa1f0a16 b7d2817a 11cddada Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:27:38 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54467 Michael Kohrs wrote: > > And also Denethor's words: "Even were his claim proved to me, still > he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, > last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." I'm surprised the more scholarly here haven't responded to this. I don't recall all the details but there was big to-do in the past regarding the legitimacy of the Northern line. There was an attempt to join the two lines but it failed. So yes, there is some precedent for Aragorn NOT being a rightful heir to Gondor. -- Roberto Ullfig : robo@suba.com ###### From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Message-ID: References: <3BC5AC5A.58644793@uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:23:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.191.39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1002878622 63.14.191.39 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:23:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:23:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54992 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:27:38 -0500, Roberto Ullfig wrote: >Michael Kohrs wrote: > >> >> And also Denethor's words: "Even were his claim proved to me, still >> he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, >> last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." > >I'm surprised the more scholarly here haven't responded to this. >I don't recall all the details but there was big to-do in the >past regarding the legitimacy of the Northern line. There was an >attempt to join the two lines but it failed. So yes, there is >some precedent for Aragorn NOT being a rightful heir to Gondor. You are referring, of course, to Arvedui's claim to the throne of Gondor in the 1944 of the Third Age. He claimed the throne on the grounds that he was also a descendant of Elendil and, moreover, was married to the previous king's [Ondoher] daughter. Gondor did not reject the claim outright, but simply ignored it and crowned Earnil II on the basis that he was related to Ondoher although not in the immediate family. I hesitate to cite this as a precedent because the circumstances were vastly different. Arvedui was recognized as the legitimate king of a separate kingdom, As far as the people of Gondor knew, his line and their claim to the throne had perished when that kingdom was destroyed by the Witch-King some thirty years later. In other words, he had royal records and histories that he could use to validate his claim. What happened to these records? Were they salvaged and hidden in Rivendell with the other heirlooms of the House of Isildur? If not, then how could Aragorn prove that he was a direct descendant of Isildur? Narsil was not necessarily proof - Gandalf wielded Glamdring for many years even tho he was in no way related to Turgon. Denethor and others who wished to oppose the claim could assert that Aragorn could have, like the trolls, found the heirlooms of the House of Isildur while he plundered the hoards of robbers. (Not that I believe that Denethor would have done something so ignoble, of course.) Aragorn was the acknowledged leader of the Dunedain of Arnor, of course, but their influence was negligible or nonexistent in Gondor. Frodo claimed that Boromir was satisfied with Aragorn's claim, that he would [theoretically] have supported it when they arrived in Minas Tirith. This certainly occurred while Boromir was in Rivendell, so we can reasonably conclude that Elrond was able to furnish proof. I am wondering just what sort of proof existed that could settle the question beyond any doubt. Mnkohrz ###### Lines: 50 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Oct 2001 14:22:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Message-ID: <20011012102244.05603.00000322@nso-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54646 In article , Michael Kohrs writes: >You are referring, of course, to Arvedui's claim to the throne of >Gondor in the 1944 of the Third Age. He claimed the throne on the >grounds that he was also a descendant of Elendil and, moreover, was >married to the previous king's [Ondoher] daughter. Gondor did not >reject the claim outright, but simply ignored it and crowned Earnil II >on the basis that he was related to Ondoher although not in the >immediate family. > >I hesitate to cite this as a precedent because the circumstances were >vastly different. Arvedui was recognized as the legitimate king of a >separate kingdom, As far as the people of Gondor knew, his line and >their claim to the throne had perished when that kingdom was destroyed >by the Witch-King some thirty years later. In other words, he had >royal records and histories that he could use to validate his claim. >What happened to these records? Were they salvaged and hidden in >Rivendell with the other heirlooms of the House of Isildur? If not, >then how could Aragorn prove that he was a direct descendant of >Isildur? Narsil was not necessarily proof - Gandalf wielded Glamdring >for many years even tho he was in no way related to Turgon. Denethor >and others who wished to oppose the claim could assert that Aragorn >could have, like the trolls, found the heirlooms of the House of >Isildur while he plundered the hoards of robbers. (Not that I believe >that Denethor would have done something so ignoble, of course.) >Aragorn was the acknowledged leader of the Dunedain of Arnor, of >course, but their influence was negligible or nonexistent in Gondor. > >Frodo claimed that Boromir was satisfied with Aragorn's claim, that he >would [theoretically] have supported it when they arrived in Minas >Tirith. This certainly occurred while Boromir was in Rivendell, so we >can reasonably conclude that Elrond was able to furnish proof. I am >wondering just what sort of proof existed that could settle the >question beyond any doubt. As I've mentioned before, I think the fact that he was able to raise and commading the Dead Men of Dunharrow was proof positive and witnessed by many. Only the heir of Isildur could do such a thing. An imposter could never pull that off. I think an underlying theme about these Numenoreans is that a heritage like that is simply something that cannot be faked. Everyone along the way was basically immediately convinced on seeminly little evidence - Eomer being the prime example. Oh, and I almost forgot. All heirs of Elendil had a mole shaped like Thailand on their left butt cheek. Russ ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:37:46 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20011012102244.05603.00000322@nso-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-30-113.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1002897550 8517 192.168.30.113 (12 Oct 2001 14:39:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2001 14:39:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54717 In article <20011012102244.05603.00000322@nso-mq.aol.com>, Russ says... > All heirs of Elendil had a mole shaped like Thailand > on their left butt cheek. Uh-oh. Eddings flashback. -- Donald Shepherd "Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense." - Mark Twain ###### From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Message-ID: References: <20011012102244.05603.00000322@nso-mq.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:18:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.191.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1002907122 63.14.191.202 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:18:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:18:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54919 On 12 Oct 2001 14:22:44 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >As I've mentioned before, I think the fact that he was able to raise and >commading the Dead Men of Dunharrow was proof positive and witnessed by many. >Only the heir of Isildur could do such a thing. An imposter could never pull >that off. You misunderstand the question. It is not "How DID Aragorn prove his claim?" but rather "How COULD Aragorn prove his claim?" In other words, what strategy did he have in mind when he originally planned to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir? >I think an underlying theme about these Numenoreans is that a heritage like >that is simply something that cannot be faked. Everyone along the way was >basically immediately convinced on seeminly little evidence - Eomer being the >prime example. I can accept that, but is there any evidence of a ritual or ceremony that would confirm his heritage? As I noted previously, the only such litmus test that I can recall is the legend regarding kings and their extraordinary abilities as healers. > >Oh, and I almost forgot. All heirs of Elendil had a mole shaped like Thailand >on their left butt cheek. > >Russ Thanks. Now I've got a vision of Aragorn mooning the entire city of Gondor just to prove that he is entitled to sit on its throne. Mnkohrz ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20011012102244.05603.00000322@nso-mq.aol.com> Subject: Re: Proof of Aragorn's claim? Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.47.42 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1002918041 212.151.47.42 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:20:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:20:41 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-47-42.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:20:55 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54814 Michael Kohrs wrote: >On 12 Oct 2001 14:22:44 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: [snip] >> >>Oh, and I almost forgot. All heirs of Elendil had a mole shaped like Thailand >>on their left butt cheek. >> >>Russ > >Thanks. Now I've got a vision of Aragorn mooning the entire city of >Gondor just to prove that he is entitled to sit on its throne. ROTFLMAO Öjevind