Reply-To: "Pseudo Psy" From: "Pseudo Psy" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Treacherous Melian ? Lines: 24 Organization: Pseudo Psy Network X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:40:35 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.203.48.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1002375638 24.203.48.12 (Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:40:38 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:40:38 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53893 Everytime I come across the chapter about the fall of Doriath, it keeps bugging me that a) Melian leave Doriath, leaving the poor Doriath elves to their fate. I presume that it was her love for Thingol that gave her the power for something like her girdle. But even then, why would she leave ? Since she's a maia, one could assume she would still have lots of power left ? b) Why did she gave the Silmaril to Mablung ? Why wouldn't she give it to one of Fëanor's sons ? AFAIK, it was her original idea, as proven by this excerpt, happening not long before Nirnaeth Arnoediad : ""From Doriath came little help. For Maedhros and his brothers, being constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him with haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield the Silmaril, or become their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender it; but the words of the sons of Fëanor were proud and threatening, and Thingol was filled with anger"" Any ideas ? Pseudo P ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 07:20:40 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53907 On Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:40:35 -0400, "Pseudo Psy" wrote: >Everytime I come across the chapter about the fall of Doriath, it keeps >bugging me that >sons of Fëanor were proud and threatening, and Thingol was filled with >anger"" > >Any ideas ? > For starters, realize that the chapter of _The Silmarillion_ on the fall of Doriath was not really written by JRRT. It was written by Guy Kay with collaboration by CJRT, as CJRT acknowledges in HoME. The problem was that JRRT had not brought the history of the fall of Doriath into harmony with much of the rest of his tale. Only older versions exist. In my mind, Melian left Doriath after Thingol was killed (deliberately while hunting, in the older versions) because she had no other stake in M-E than her love for Thingol and she returned to Aman to mourn him. The well-being of a Doriath without Thingol was not a concern of hers. Not treacherous. Perhaps selfish. But what the Hell, she was an angel. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "I am a man of immense learning and no culture." ###### Reply-To: "Pseudo Psy" From: "Pseudo Psy" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Lines: 45 Organization: Pseudo Psy Network X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 11:04:52 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.203.48.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1002380694 24.203.48.12 (Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:04:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:04:54 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53896 "the softrat" wrote in message news:994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com... > For starters, realize that the chapter of _The Silmarillion_ on the > fall of Doriath was not really written by JRRT. It was written by Guy > Kay with collaboration by CJRT, as CJRT acknowledges in HoME. > The problem was that JRRT had not brought the history of the fall of > Doriath into harmony with much of the rest of his tale. Only older > versions exist. I didn't knew that. My understanding of the role of CJRT was that he merely put together bits and pieces of an unpublished/unfinished Silm. Not that he would in any way write stories on his own ! It's kind of a deception to me but still i'm grateful he published it anyway. Is this the only chapter not really written by JRRT in the Silm ? > > In my mind, Melian left Doriath after Thingol was killed (deliberately > while hunting, in the older versions) because she had no other stake > in M-E than her love for Thingol and she returned to Aman to mourn > him. The well-being of a Doriath without Thingol was not a concern of > hers. That last phrase make my point. At least she should have form a Doriath relief effort music band with Daeron (providing they could find him) and Maglor (providing he would appear courtesy from Fëanor's Oath Records inc.) :) > > Not treacherous. Perhaps selfish. But what the Hell, she was an angel. > > Indeed. And she must have been a darn cute one, considering she had full control over the choice of her own "incarnated" body parts :) > the softrat "He who rubs owls" > mailto:softrat@pobox.com > -- > "I am a man of immense learning and no culture." Pseudo P ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:40:43 -0400 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3BBF25F3.5196647B@erols.com> References: <994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com> Reply-To: spamkiller@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYwjbD9WC3oxZjc7EEKnu1dk87XLzqFJcQ6lGtN4UGQ9nZr36p6midB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2001 16:03:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53846 Pseudo Psy wrote: > I didn't knew that. My understanding of the role of CJRT was that he merely > put together bits and pieces of an unpublished/unfinished Silm. Not that he > would in any way write stories on his own ! It's kind of a deception to me > but still i'm grateful he published it anyway. Is this the only chapter not > really written by JRRT in the Silm ? Yes, and it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that someone "wrote it on his own." An older fragment was harmonized by making the necessary changes. > > Not treacherous. Perhaps selfish. But what the Hell, she was an angel. Try to cut a grieving widow a little slack, softrat. Sheesh. > Indeed. And she must have been a darn cute one, considering she had full > control over the choice of her own "incarnated" body parts :) She was very beautiful, but she did not choose her form with the idea of attracting a guy. Thingol just kind of stumbled onto the scene. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Message-ID: <3BBF2F09.39E15CC7@eresmas.com> From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 76 Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:19:21 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.174.184.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eresmas.com X-Trace: news-reader.eresmas.com 1002385033 62.174.184.87 (Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:17:13 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:17:13 MET DST Organization: eresMas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!garse!news-feeder.eresmas.com!news-reader.eresmas.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53858 Pseudo Psy wrote: > Everytime I come across the chapter about the fall of Doriath, it keeps= > bugging me that > > a) Melian leave Doriath, leaving the poor Doriath elves to their fate. = I > presume that it was her love for Thingol that gave her the power for > something like her girdle. But even then, why would she leave ? Since s= he's > a maia, one could assume she would still have lots of power left ? > > b) Why did she gave the Silmaril to Mablung ? Why wouldn't she give it = to > one of F=EBanor's sons ? AFAIK, it was her original idea, as proven by = this > excerpt, happening not long before Nirnaeth Arnoediad : > > ""From Doriath came little help. For Maedhros and his brothers, being > constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him = with > haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield the Silmaril, or b= ecome > their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender it; but the words of th= e > sons of F=EBanor were proud and threatening, and Thingol was filled wit= h > anger"" > > Any ideas ? > > Pseudo P After Thingol's death, and given that her daughter had now a life of her = own far from Doriath and her fate was now that of mortal men, little save bitter memories were left in Doriath to Melian, so she left to Valinor to bathe = her sorrow. Why did she gave the Silmaril to Mablung? well, AFAIK any intervention of= the Ainur in the fates of ME were prohibited, until the time came (when E=E4r= endil came to Valinor), so, when Thingol refused to surrender it, I think that = the doom of Doriath was sealed, remember she said to thingol when he sent Ber= en to his "hopeless" errand: "O' King, you have devised cunning counsel. But i= f my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in = his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, ot your= self. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.". The last= words seem to me the most important, in some other places in the Silmarillion i= t is told that anyone that coveted the Silmarils would become ensnared in the = Doom of Mandos, when Thingol sent Beren to get one, himself and his realm were do= omed. I don't think that Melian would dare to gainsay Mandos. Would you? I woul= d gainsay him, at least... :-) -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Saludos desde M=E1laga, Espa=F1a de Javier Caselli beren_erchamion@eresmas.com ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Date: 06 Oct 2001 23:43:52 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6u3d4wjvfr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com> <3BBF25F3.5196647B@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1002404632 1201 10.0.3.2 (6 Oct 2001 21:43:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2001 21:43:52 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53917 Flame of the West writes: > Pseudo Psy wrote: > > > I didn't knew that. My understanding of the role of CJRT was that he merely > > put together bits and pieces of an unpublished/unfinished Silm. Bits and pieces of about 4 versions of the Silm and about 3 versions of he "Annals" plus an further text whose name I have forgotten. JRRTs texts were left in an state of unfinished mess. > > Not that he > > would in any way write stories on his own ! It's kind of a deception to me > > but still i'm grateful he published it anyway. Is this the only chapter not > > really written by JRRT in the Silm ? > > Yes, and it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that someone "wrote it on > his own." An older fragment was harmonized by making the necessary > changes. To be more precise: Up to the death of Turin is mainly the post LotR 1950s version[1] of Silm. Then Tolkien stopped, as he did with 2 of the other 3 versions of Silm, only one was ever completed. Actually there is an bit about Hurins release and the destruction of the people Turin was last with, but that was missed when assembling Silm. After that the rest of Silm was taken from the 2 pre-LotR 1930s versions[2] of Silm. And adopted to fit with [1] while trying to follow the more or less updated Annals. The Destruction of Doriath is regarded by CRRT as the part he screwed up the worst on (he says so in HoME[3] 11). [1] Reprinted in their real state in HoME[3] 10 and 11 [2] Reprinted in their real state in HoME[3] 4 and 5 [3] History of Middle Earth, an series of 12 books by CRRT containing commented prints the tests as JRRT left them. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:45:07 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c25.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53989 In article , "Pseudo Psy" wrote: >Everytime I come across the chapter about the fall of Doriath, it keeps >bugging me that > >a) Melian leave Doriath, leaving the poor Doriath elves to their fate. I >presume that it was her love for Thingol that gave her the power for >something like her girdle. But even then, why would she leave ? Since she's >a maia, one could assume she would still have lots of power left ? as soon as thingol demanded a silmaril for his luthien he came under the doom of the noldor and the girdle would no longer hold back morgoth while it held a little while it would not last much longer doriath would be destroyed whether she stayed or went ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:51:53 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9pnr38$n7b$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-t162.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1002401705 23787 62.103.252.162 (6 Oct 2001 20:55:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:55:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53939 Pseudo Psy wrote in message news:q4Fv7.456$he3.70909@weber.videotron.net... > > "the softrat" wrote in message > news:994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com... > > > For starters, realize that the chapter of _The Silmarillion_ on the > > fall of Doriath was not really written by JRRT. It was written by Guy > > Kay with collaboration by CJRT, as CJRT acknowledges in HoME. > > The problem was that JRRT had not brought the history of the fall of > > Doriath into harmony with much of the rest of his tale. Only older > > versions exist. > > I didn't knew that. My understanding of the role of CJRT was that he merely > put together bits and pieces of an unpublished/unfinished Silm. Not that he > would in any way write stories on his own ! He didn't. Everyone who says that this chapter was written by Guy Kay with collaboration by CJRT is *greatly* exaggerating. Every major plot-point in that chapter was written by Tolkien. CJRT simply connected the dots Aris Katsaris ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:01:01 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.6b X-Server-Date: 6 Oct 2001 20:59:00 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54004 morgan mair fheal wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >as soon as thingol demanded a silmaril for his luthien >he came under the doom of the noldor >and the girdle would no longer hold back morgoth I don't think it ever would have. The words of the Silm are " ... and Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia." I don't think there was any question that Morgoth had "power greater than that of [a] Maia". Morgoth's servants, of course, did not. Even Sauron probably would not have been able to get through, since he lost the contest with Melian's daughter Lúthien. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? References: <994urt4f6i8eoq52dktjb4ihvdhn6b1vde@4ax.com> <9pnr38$n7b$1@usenet.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5t3w7.186$P4.11724@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1002488769 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:06:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:06:09 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 5t3w7-63164-P4-11701@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ba6baf87 764a27d2 a7535db5 73b05e6b 2749052e Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:06:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53952 [Referring to "Of the Ruin of Doriath" in Silm. as published:] Quoth "Aris Katsaris" in article <9pnr38$n7b$1@usenet.otenet.gr>: > He didn't. Everyone who says that this chapter was written by Guy > Kay with collaboration by CJRT is *greatly* exaggerating. Every > major plot-point in that chapter was written by Tolkien. CJRT simply > connected the dots In most of the other chapters, the majority of the prose itself was written by JRRT, with only mild editing necessary to bring it together with the rest of the book. In this case, Tolkien had outlined at least three different sequences of events without giving clear preference to any of them, and Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay ended up choosing (as I recall) one of the older versions of the story because it seemed to fit best with the rest of the book as they had assembled it up to that point. Christopher gives some detailed comments on this rewriting (and his regrets about it) in "The Tale of Years", a section of _The War of the Jewels_ (HoMe XI). Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Pseudo Psy" From: "Pseudo Psy" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Treacherous Melian ? Lines: 22 Organization: Pseudo Psy Network X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <9I9w7.7855$Hw5.692530@weber.videotron.net> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:11:47 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.203.48.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1002514309 24.203.48.12 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 00:11:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 00:11:49 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!nerim.net!news.stealth.net!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54084 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.16293b1b55fb8faf98c953@news.mindspring.com... > I don't think there was any question that Morgoth had "power greater > than that of [a] Maia". Morgoth's servants, of course, did not. Even > Sauron probably would not have been able to get through, since he > lost the contest with Melian's daughter Lúthien. > While acknowleding the power of Luthien, I like to think that Huan's been a crucial part of her victory over Sauron. This was a close one. The only thing that saved them was when "she casted a fold of her dark cloak before his [Sauron's] eyes". Then Huan sprang back and never let go... Good dog... Pseudo P