From: James Chokey Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Frodo lives? (Tolkien fandom in the 60s) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 01:50:01 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 47 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: d8.af.5c.9b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 6 Oct 2001 09:00:24 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53892 OK, I was born in 1969, so I'm a child of the 60s--- but as I was only a baby, I don't remember anything from it. However, maybe someone older than I-- or perhaps some younger scholar who's done research into the history of "Tolkien fandom" or the so called "Tolkien phenomenon" can answer this. What was the deal with the phrase "Frodo lives"? I've repeatedly seen references to this having being a popular slogan in the 1960s. The literal meaning of the phrase, of course, is obvious (i.e. Frodo is alive) , but what did it *really* mean when somebody said it back then? That is to say-- how and when did somebody use it? Was it used a synonym for "cool"-- like "groovy" or "far out"? Did it have political/ countercultural implications, like "Make Love, Not War" or "Turn on, tune in, drop out"? Or was it used in some completely other way entirely? Also, *who* actually used this phrase? I'm assuming it was younger folks? Was it limited to Tolkien fans on university campuses? Or did it achieve wider spread use? On both sides of the Atlantic or just in England? How commonly used was this, really? Any insights from someone who remembers-- or who has done any research on this subject-- would be appreciated. -- Jim C. Now Playing-- Vital Duo, _Ex Tempore_ ========================================================================== | James A. Chokey jchokey@mindspring.com | | | | http://www.mindspring.com/~jchokey/personal/ | | | | 'Do you think that the sciences would ever have arisen and become | | great if there had not been magicians, alchemists, astrologers, | | and wizards who thirsted and hungered after hidden, forbidden | | powers?' | | -- Nietzsche | | | ========================================================================== ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Frodo lives? (Tolkien fandom in the 60s) Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:29:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1002367798 12.79.23.14 (Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:29:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:29:58 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53865 "James Chokey" wrote in message news:B7E413C9.C8A4A%jchokey@mindspring.com... > What was the deal with the phrase "Frodo lives"? At the end of Lord of the Rings there is a description of Frodo sailing West. In the appendices there is a reference to the fact that the Numenoreans were forbidden to set foot in the 'Undying Lands' and an indication that they had to remain mortal. Some readers put two and two together and got 5... Frodo went West, he must have gone to these 'Undying Lands' (correct), and therefor he must have become immortal and still be alive (false). Tolkien explained elsewhere that the 'Undying Lands' were so called because the immortals had gone their to live... and that Frodo remained mortal and eventually died in the West. The West were the 'Lands >of< the Undying' rather than 'Lands where no one died'. Once the phrase got out it was also often used just as a counter- cultural reference to the texts and in the sense that the 'concept' of Frodo was alive. > Also, *who* actually used this phrase? I'm assuming it was younger > folks? Was it limited to Tolkien fans on university campuses? Primarily. American 'hippies' certainly did. Beyond that I am uncertain. ###### From: "Vulpecula Mordax" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo lives? (Tolkien fandom in the 60s) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:42:55 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet NV Lines: 42 Message-ID: <9pmqk9$gkc$1@news.planetinternet.be> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: u212-239-166-196.adsl.pi.be X-Trace: news.planetinternet.be 1002368457 17036 212.239.166.196 (6 Oct 2001 11:40:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planetinternet.be NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2001 11:40:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 12:47:00 BST (newsr2.u-net.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!newsr2.u-net.net!news-peer-uk.interpacket.net!planetinternet.be!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53900 Conrad Dunkerson schreef in berichtnieuws WWBv7.66931$W8.2072640@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... | "James Chokey" wrote in message | news:B7E413C9.C8A4A%jchokey@mindspring.com... | | > What was the deal with the phrase "Frodo lives"? | | At the end of Lord of the Rings there is a description of Frodo | sailing West. In the appendices there is a reference to the fact that | the Numenoreans were forbidden to set foot in the 'Undying Lands' and | an indication that they had to remain mortal. Some readers put two | and two together and got 5... Frodo went West, he must have gone to | these 'Undying Lands' (correct), and therefor he must have become | immortal and still be alive (false). Tolkien explained elsewhere | that the 'Undying Lands' were so called because the immortals had | gone their to live... and that Frodo remained mortal and eventually | died in the West. The West were the 'Lands >of< the Undying' rather | than 'Lands where no one died'. | | Once the phrase got out it was also often used just as a counter- | cultural reference to the texts and in the sense that the 'concept' | of Frodo was alive. | | > Also, *who* actually used this phrase? I'm assuming it was younger | > folks? Was it limited to Tolkien fans on university campuses? | | Primarily. American 'hippies' certainly did. Beyond that I am | uncertain. One of the following slogans was also really used. Which one.... a) GANDALF FOR PRESIDENT! b) NO BALROGS IN THE WHITE HOUSE! c) FREE APPLES FOR EVERYONE! d) DOWN WITH DEMOCRACY, UP WITH THE SHIRE! e) THE WHITE COUNCIL IS CORRUPT! correct answers might be rewarded with a free apple. ###### Lines: 66 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: smgcfam@aol.com (SMGCFAM) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Oct 2001 12:12:22 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Frodo lives? (Tolkien fandom in the 60s) Message-ID: <20011006081222.06724.00001939@mb-cq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53878 >"Frodo lives"? >but what did it *really* mean when somebody >said it back then? "(Someone)" lives was a common expression back in those times. I seem to remember it being said of Jesus (related as a response to the "God is Dead" controversy way back when--for more on that read Thomas J.J. Altizer who I once heard lecture about why God is dead--something about circular and linear time mythologically which I only half recall and won't bore you with), Che Guevera, Star Trek and (in a Mad Magazine satire) even Hitler. My impression is that the phrase is a positive statement about a person or thing, perhaps scorned, outcast, even murdered by the established order (like Che and Star Trek were murdered)--that their thought, ideas, example still inspired in an underground sort of way. "Frodo Lives" was on a button according to the Practical English article on Tolkien called "Where is Middle-Earth?" and it always struck me as a little "in-joke" among Tolkien buffs. I think I saw it once. >Was it used a synonym for "cool"-- like "groovy" or "far out"? No, not a common expression at all. My experience was that a significant minority of my peers had read Tolkien, some had even pursued fantasy further, or the literature that was Tolkien's inspiration like the Sagas or the Kalevala but the LOTR was not a great topic of after midnight discussion in college dormitories (talk about getting laid and smoking dope occupied about 85-90% of the conversation time). I read Tolkien in 1967, a year after the Ballantine Paperbacks with the weird Barbara Remington covers came out. The Don had been popular before that but this is when he really took off. If my own and my brother's experience is any yard stick many young folk came to Tolkien by way of classic 40's, 50's, 60's science fiction--you know, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlien, Arthur C. Clarke, Ray Bradbury, etc. We were looking for a nice long book to read after The Foundation Trilogy. We got more than we bargained for because the LOTR lead us on to E.R. Eddison, Mervyn Peake, James Branch Cabell, William Morris, George MacDonald and many other contemporaries and early precursors of Tolkien thanks to the Ballantine Fantasy Series mostly. It also led us on to other long Sci-Fi books, like Dune. And this is not to forget the other Inklings like C.S.Lewis, Charles Williams, and Owen Barfield. Vast amounts of Tolkien criticism were also consumed as well as the ancient and medieval literature that lay behind Tolkien. His catholicity could easily lead one to Chesterton and Belloc. And here I am, 34 years after, just finishing up Cabell's Straws and Prayer Books, the last volume of the Biography of Manuel and about to begin Robert Speight's biography of Hilaire Belloc, and I hope to get to soon John Julius Norwich's 3 volume history of the Byzantine Empire. The road is endless with many forking paths. Regarding my credentials to answer your question--I was born in 1951, graduated Freeport high school the year you were born, went to SUNY at Stony Brook (once described in the Underground College Handbook as the "Berkeley of the East, the dorms are like brothels"...yeah, sure,) lived through race riots, fire bombings, barn burnings, assaults on university computing centers, Jefferson Airplane concerts and many, many nights drinking wet, watery beer at Shepherd's bar (not pub, bar) in St. James. (No, I did not go to Vietnam, where, being the naif that I am, I would have been killed in about 20 minutes--but I did sit through Apocalypse Now) You object--some of this took place in the 70's? Well, a lot of the sixties took place in the early 70's. Like the fall of Rome, no one specific date can be isolated. I tend to run on--I'm sorry--no, I'm not, thank you for letting me get nostalgic and I hope in all this maudlin drivel I answered your question at least in part. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo lives? (Tolkien fandom in the 60s) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 07:10:29 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:53909 On Sat, 06 Oct 2001 11:29:58 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > >At the end of Lord of the Rings there is a description of Frodo >sailing West. In the appendices there is a reference to the fact that >cultural reference to the texts and in the sense that the 'concept' >of Frodo was alive. > >> Also, *who* actually used this phrase? I'm assuming it was younger >> folks? Was it limited to Tolkien fans on university campuses? > >Primarily. American 'hippies' certainly did. Beyond that I am >uncertain. > I think that CD has over-analyzed the situation. "Frodo lives!" was preceeded by the catch-phrase "Bird lives!" referring to a deceased jazz musician. "XXX lives!" merely means that the influence of 'XXX' lives on. the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself.