From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Pratchett vs. Tolkien: Which is funnier? Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:35:52 -0400 Lines: 92 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.67.194 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.67.194 Message-ID: <3b9056b4_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Trace: 31 Aug 2001 22:32:04 -0500, 64.24.67.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@megapop.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chcgil2-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.starnetinc.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50384 "Ulrich Schreitmueller" wrote in message news:3B8D7B57.E6D4310C@student.uni-tuebingen.de... > I know that Terry Pratchett occasionally poked fun at certain elements of > LotR (the crown that lets itself be found in "Wyrd Sisters", Gollum in "Witches > Abroad"), but these bits don't really constitute a parody since they are just > little jokes in the other larger stories. I would say that sending up the aspects of Tolkien that take themselves too seriously -- and, even more, the admirers of Tolkien who take themselves and himself too seriously -- has been basic to Pratchett's vision almost from the dawn of the Discworld series. Certainly his fat, complacent, corrupt and incompetent Wizards of Unseen University owe a great deal to Gandalf's and Saruman's contempt for fools (they owe a lot to Gormenghast and Ox-Bridge, too), and Tolkien tropes are always turning up. Ankh-Morpork, the grandest and most disgusting of cities, is certainly a tribute to Minas Tirith, as it appears to Pippin. Perhaps the closest thing to outright parody of JRRT is the career of Carrot Ironfounderson of the Ankh-Morpork City Guard, who starts out as a take-off on Strider (only naive, unaware of his heritage despite the runes on his sword, and disinclined to take the throne occupied by the "Steward", Lord Vetinari). His subsequent romance with a highly eligible and well-born werewolf has not been without ... piquancy, as one recalls the original. The dwarves among whom Carrot was raised ("Think of your gray-bearded old mothers!") are obviously based on Tolkien's statement that dwarf women cannot be told from dwarf men by non-dwarves. His trolls are post-Hobbit, too. Then there are the footnotes in "The Colour of Magic", which describe the set up of Discworld and neatly slice the academic pomp of LotR's appendices. But the coup de grace (almost) is delivered in Lords and Ladies, with its vicious swipe at the "glamour" of the Elves. Pratchett parodies so many other sitting ducks (starting with Larry Niven's Ringworld, the original of the first Discworld Pratchett created in Strata), including Conan the Barbarian, Dracula, The Wizard of Oz, and Gormenghast, that it is easy to miss how very basic to the series are two particular threads: Tolkien and Wicca. (I was introduced to Pratchett by a transsexual Tolkienist witch; he began with Wyrd Systers.) I have to say, after howling at many of his inventions, either he's run out of steam or I have. The last half dozen just have not produced elation, and I've stopped following them closely. Still HIGHLY RECOMMENDED to everyone on this ng: Wyrd Sisters (Macbeth, from the Witches' p.o.v.) Witches Abroad (that rare sequel as good as the original) Moving Pictures (why do gold stars suddenly appear in people's eyes?) Guards! Guards! (what if Smaug had been female?) Small Gods (a theocratic state denies that the world rides on a turtle's back) Almost as good: Strata (first Discworld novel, a parody of Ringworld, and very neat too) The Colour of Magic (and) The Light Fantastic: Pratchett sets up the Discworld and concludes with a howlingly funny joke at the expense of Judgment Day fans. However: scattershot in its satires, and centered about the unfunny wizard Rincewind Reaper Man (Death takes a holiday, and gets a job ... on a farm) Equal Rites (a girl accidentally becomes a wizard) Lords & Ladies (the kingdom of Lancre invaded by Elves) Carpe Jugulum (the kingdom of Lancre invaded by vampires -- you know, I'm getting really really tired of Granny Weatherwax, who is less fun as she becomes more perfect) Feet of Clay (the Guards again, this time dealing with golems) You will be grateful to avoid: Pyramids, Sourcery, Mort, Eric, Maskerade (Pratchett just doesn't know opera the way he knows movies), Jingo, Interesting Times P.S. I wish he'd do a number on C.S. Lewis. The guy is ASKING for it. But I guess Pratchett just doesn't find Lewis as entertaining as Tolkien or Peake. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### From: geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pratchett vs. Tolkien: Which is funnier? Keywords: fnord X-Face: ^w`SR8R8?8Zj:n/X;4k-#NX(z?)JQ`&py16%}'likbP2~n^dxk4r3ci++#l6-8`.3m]^w\%*T4m;a2N0Q$S_]U>,V{lKBmvTzE'+xpbNElX<%89xC`s>ty8lA|&W&euaUOKa8rbdZ5v#[9\jr7_k(RpcZ\._FqT&NZKN*j_`s%I53git Organization: Geoducks Forever Reply-To: geoduck@webave.com Message-ID: <3b9128c6.17614187@news.olywa.net> References: <3b9056b4_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 13:36:04 CDT X-Trace: sv3-eeMbsGVpGIZcVj1jes/2OOVFOXn74U8Yl2PZJs28XTM6PFa+dCpVF8rIFKexdwbTKlAWov9RUgqGb+n!u1kkmVphOwGI4aGCFDFaawk1xfDGfgAeZoG8VLSdHe+Gzunvi6FOjCE2ux0sVfA+GuU/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:29:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50466 On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:35:52 -0400, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: (snip) >P.S. I wish he'd do a number on C.S. Lewis. The guy is ASKING for it. But I >guess Pratchett just doesn't find Lewis as entertaining as Tolkien or Peake. He did make a wardrobe-leading-to-a-magic-country joke in one of the Rincewind novels. -- Geoduck http://www.olywa.net/cook ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pratchett vs. Tolkien: Which is funnier? Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 00:36:53 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3b8a96d8$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com> <9mgmtv$73f$1@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com> <3b8bee4a_2@news.nwlink.com> <9milgd$qtu$1@suaar1ac.prod.compuserve.com> <3B8D7B57.E6D4310C@student.uni-tuebingen.de> <3b90567e_1@news.starnetinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.4c X-Server-Date: 2 Sep 2001 04:37:05 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50542 A Tsar Is Born wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ankh-Morpork, the grandest and most disgusting of cities, is certainly a >tribute to Minas Tirith, as it appears to Pippin. Yeah, right. <-- an example of a double positive making a negative -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com/ "Really, Dr. Fara, such folly smacks of genius. A lesser mind would be incapable of it." --Isaac Asimov, /Foundation/ ###### From: "Luke Goaman-Dodson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pratchett vs. Tolkien: Which is funnier? Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:59:27 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 64 Message-ID: <9mtvnc$nln$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <3b9056b4_1@news.starnetinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-156-61.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50526 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:3b9056b4_1@news.starnetinc.com... > The Colour of Magic (and) The Light Fantastic: Pratchett sets up the > Discworld and concludes with a howlingly funny joke at the expense of > Judgment Day fans. However: scattershot in its satires, and centered about > the unfunny wizard Rincewind That's not very nice - personally I think Rincewind's the funniest character in the series (he is much maligned by the more "mature" fans, which is a pity). > Reaper Man (Death takes a holiday, and gets a job ... on a farm) A lovely piece of work, IMO. > Equal Rites (a girl accidentally becomes a wizard) As good as any other, although we don't hear much of Esk afterwards (perhaps it was the History Monks from Thief of Time). > Lords & Ladies (the kingdom of Lancre invaded by Elves) That was a good read, but I found the nasty vision of elves a bit unfair. > Carpe Jugulum (the kingdom of Lancre invaded by vampires -- you know, I'm > getting really really tired of Granny Weatherwax, who is less fun as she > becomes more perfect) Rather boring, with few laughs. > You will be grateful to avoid: Pyramids, Reasonable. > Sourcery, Reasonable. > Mort, *Very* good. > Eric, Reasonably good. > Maskerade Crap. > (Pratchett just doesn't know opera the way he knows movies), Jingo, Crap. > Interesting Times Reasonable.