From: "pawn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:14:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.0.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.busy1.on.home.com 998885674 24.141.0.181 (Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:14:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:14:34 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.busy1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49794 Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. The fact that I want to believe. I want to believe there's some sort of reailty involved. But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the real world? I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you believe the entire creation story, the myths, the history, etc.. But, if I'm going to invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) in something, why not stories (like the Bible, or Koran, or Book of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually have a remote possibility of being true. Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) satisfies that same primal need that religious types have filled by going to church every sunday (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <3b89d2c5.1397131@news.powersurfr.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:59:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 998888144 24.108.184.50 (Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:55:44 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:55:44 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49756 On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:14:34 GMT, "pawn" wrote, in part: >But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why >aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history >book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. Well, the stories from the Bible have a lot of emotional issues attached to them, precisely because people have *claimed* that they might be true. People read stories to be entertained, and stories written for entertainment oblige by tending to be nonthreatening to the reader and nonjudgemental of the reader. People might indeed also read actual non-fiction works, and enjoy reading about events of the past that were exciting - whether battles in wars, exploration of the Antarctic, space missions - but what has actually come to pass is only a small fraction of what might be. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/other/slrint.htm ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:40:31 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c22.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49785 In article , "pawn" wrote: >Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. > >I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. The fact that I want to >believe. I want to believe there's some sort of reailty involved. > >But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why >aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history >book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. i can read both or all bible koran edda some veda silmarillion >Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the >real world? theres also play i did some thigns based on the eddas i could have characters do things that would be heresies in real life play is exercise without present purpose that nonetheless prepares you for future real life maybe after going through silmarillion a person might consider that pride and wealth are follies instead of the highest expression of western culture ###### From: "Anton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <_Ati7.19360$sa.9885251@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:22:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.176.174.101 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com 998925754 24.176.174.101 (Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:22:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:22:34 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49800 "pawn" wrote in message news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. > > I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. The fact that I want to > believe. I want to believe there's some sort of reailty involved. > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. > > Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the > real world? "We who hobnob with hobbits and tell tall tales about little green men are quite used to being dismissed as mere entertainers, or sternly disapproved as escapists. But I think that perhaps the categories are changing, like the times. . . At this point, realism is perhaps the least adequate means of understanding or portraying the incredible realities of our existence. A scientist who creates a monster in his labratory; a librarian in the library of Babel; a wizard unable to cast a spell; a space ship having trouble in getting to Alpha Centauri: all these may be precise and profound metaphors of the human condition. The fantasist, whether he uses the ancient archetypes of myth and legend or the younger ones of science and technology, may be talking as seriously as any sociologoist-and a good deal more directly-about human life as it is lived, and as it might be lived, and as it ought to be lived. For after all, as great scientists have said and as all children know, it is above all by the imagination that we achieve perception, and compassion, and hope." -Ursula Le Guin Remember, something doesn't have to be real to be true. > > I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you believe the > entire creation story, the myths, the history, etc.. But, if I'm going to > invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) in something, why not stories > (like the Bible, or Koran, or Book of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually > have a remote possibility of being true. > > Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) satisfies that > same primal need that religious types have filled by going to church every > sunday (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? > > ###### From: "Mark Reichert" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:37:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.248.209.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read.news.verio.net 998937452 209.248.209.14 (Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:37:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:37:32 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49791 "pawn" wrote in message news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. What if I don't believe that the Bible records real history? ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:03:51 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <_Ati7.19360$sa.9885251@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: houkdhcp247.chem.ucla.edu X-Trace: siamese.noc.ucla.edu 998942652 782 169.232.140.247 (27 Aug 2001 20:04:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:04:12 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!169.232.10.60.MISMATCH!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!houkdhcp247.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49788 In article <_Ati7.19360$sa.9885251@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Anton" wrote: > "We who hobnob with hobbits ... snip great quote ... > -Ursula Le Guin > > Remember, something doesn't have to be real to be true. "The allegorist leaves the given--his own passions--to talk of that which is confessedly less real, which is a fiction. The symbolist leaves the given to find that which is more real. To put the difference in another way, for the symbolist it is wee who are the allegory. We are the 'frigid personifications'; the heavens above us are the 'shadowy abstractions'; the world which we mistake for reality is the flat outline of that which elsewhere veritably is all the round of its unimaginable dimensions." -C. S. Lewis, _The Allegory of Love_ Bruce ###### From: "Lady Cin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:52:55 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49780 Mark Reichert wrote in message news:Mrwi7.337$ck.19575@sjc-read.news.verio.net... > "pawn" wrote in message > news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history > > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. > > What if I don't believe that the Bible records real history? > > As an example of Prime Escapism...pick up and read the 'Guardians of the Flame' series...that's the kind of escapism I would love to happen to me :) Lady Cin http://lady_cin.tripod.com/ http://www.alabamatechnologies.com ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:28:10 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o065.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998947761 22356 212.205.252.65 (27 Aug 2001 21:29:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:29:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49847 pawn wrote in message news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? Most of them aren't as well written IMO... > And why read the (history > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. > > Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the > real world? A false dilemma. Why not know/learn/read about both? Aris Katsaris ###### From: "John C" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:57:48 -0400 Organization: SUNY Potsdam Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9meglj$hvm$1@ns1> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: student130104.resnet.potsdam.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.potsdam.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49883 pawn said: > Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the > real world? > > I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you believe the > entire creation story, the myths, the history, etc.. But, if I'm going to > invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) in something, why not stories > (like the Bible, or Koran, or Book of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually > have a remote possibility of being true. > Are you suggesting that the events in the Lord of the Rings weren't true? Heretic! (Or troll, we wonders...) > Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) satisfies that > same primal need that religious types have filled by going to church every > sunday (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? Satisfies even better than religion: I don't remember Tolkien saying that if you didn't adhere to what he said you'd go to hell. (open question) Do the Letters or HoME mention anything on this? -John C. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:40:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.244 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 998952010 12.79.56.244 (Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:40:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:40:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49857 "pawn" wrote in message news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. Zealot. :) > I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. The fact that > I want to believe. I want to believe there's some sort of > reailty involved. There are many sorts of reality involved. Which were you thinking of? > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since > abandoned), why aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? Because they were written thousands of years ago by people who were not professional authors and have been mangled in the course of multiple translations? > And why read the (history book formatted) Silmarillion, when I > could read real history. Real history seldom arranges itself in as engrossing a form as the constructed history of The Silmarillion. There are exceptions, but then those are again written about by people with little sense of style... and indeed a professional bias towards presenting as dry and 'factual' an account as possible. > I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you > believe the entire creation story, the myths, the history, > etc.. What do you mean, 'could'? > But, if I'm going to invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) > in something, why not stories (like the Bible, or Koran, or Book > of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually have a remote > possibility of being true. Opinions differ. > Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) > satisfies that same primal need that religious types have filled > by going to church every sunday One wonders about the religious types who read Tolkien (or fantasy in general) - obviously they are getting something else out of it. Maybe... entertainment? Or something bizarre like that. > (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? Inconceivable. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:38:03 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998955476 21008 192.168.30.2 (27 Aug 2001 23:37:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2001 23:37:56 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49879 In article , Mark Reichert says... > "pawn" wrote in message > news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history > > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. > > What if I don't believe that the Bible records real history? Then read some real history, as the original poster suggested. -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: "A lone testicle lay in a barren field." ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:39:05 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998955537 21008 192.168.30.2 (27 Aug 2001 23:38:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2001 23:38:57 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49871 In article <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris says... > > pawn wrote in message > news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > > > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? > > Most of them aren't as well written IMO... And a lot of it is really dull. Leviticus and Psalms, for instance. -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: "A lone testicle lay in a barren field." ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <270820011843289842%dsalo@usa.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 52 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:42:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 998955740 208.170.95.181 (Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:42:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:42:20 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49837 In article , "pawn" wrote: > Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. > > I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. The fact that I want to > believe. I want to believe there's some sort of reailty involved. > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? Some are appealing, some aren't; those that aren't, because of time and cultural distance; bad translation; interest by the author in other things than entertaining his audience; interest in entertaining, but poor execution (not all of the authors of the Bible were necessarily good writers!) And a lot of the Bible isn't even "stories". > And why read the (history > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. You could. Some do. I do. My tastes in history change, from 17th century British politics to 9th century Viking invasions to 3nd century BCE Greek republics. And sometimes I want elvish kingdoms in Beleriand, and I can't get them elsewhere, so I read The Silmarillion. > Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the > real world? Isn't fiction part of the real world? Can you study Greek history and ignore the Iliad and the Odyssey? (It's said that Alexander took a copy of the Iliad with him on his travels.) Can you study Indian history without a glance at the Ramayana? Maybe the time will come when people will read The Lord of the Rings to understand the Third Millennium. :) > I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you believe the > entire creation story, the myths, the history, etc.. But, if I'm going to > invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) in something, why not stories > (like the Bible, or Koran, or Book of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually > have a remote possibility of being true. You may take your myths where you find them. How do you know that the possibility of Tolkien's myths being true is *more* remote than those of these other books? > Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) satisfies that > same primal need that religious types have filled by going to church every > sunday (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? Perhaps for some people. As for me, I think it's a darn good read, with some good ethical bits and a nicely woven backstory. That's not true for all fantasy. ###### From: mair_fheal@www.yahoo.com (rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:06:23 -0800 Organization: my office on the hunterstrand Message-ID: References: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c35.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49886 In article , Donald Shepherd wrote: >In article <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris > says... >> >> pawn wrote in message >> news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... >> > >> > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why >> > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? >> >> Most of them aren't as well written IMO... > >And a lot of it is really dull. Leviticus and Psalms, for instance. levitticus isnt history story or poetry its the hebrwe version of the us criminal code ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:55:01 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-354.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49898 On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:14:34 GMT, "pawn" wrote: |Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. |I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. The fact that I want to |believe. I want to believe there's some sort of reailty involved. |But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why |aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? And why read the (history |book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. |Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the |real world? |I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you believe the |entire creation story, the myths, the history, etc.. But, if I'm going to |invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) in something, why not stories |(like the Bible, or Koran, or Book of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually |have a remote possibility of being true. |Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) satisfies that |same primal need that religious types have filled by going to church every |sunday (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? Unlike you, I do not want to believe there is some reality involved. There is a wonderful imagination, fired by meticulous attention to detail, and within that imagination there is an internal consistency that might be characterized as real, but I see little in LoTR that is relevant to my present circumstances. For those, I read the Bible, and yes, I find it both more compelling and more relevant to those circumstances than Tolkien. Further, I do not lose track of which is real and which is fantasy, but that is just about the only thread of reality I take with me when I enter Tolkien's world. Why do so? Why enter Tolkien's world? Tolkien doesn't satisfy any primal needs of mine. His appeal is simply the timeless appeal of a great story told by a master story teller. ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:01:49 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-530.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49911 On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:39:05 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: |And a lot of it is really dull. Leviticus and Psalms, for instance. Leviticus, I grant. It comes alive, however, once you become familiar with the typology. But Psalms? The Psalms rock! If you read them in wholesale bunches, the imprecatory psalms get old really fast, and I find it difficult to appreciate them as song lyrics, but the Psalms are some of the most important, most exciting, most compelling words ever spoken. We would be immensley poorer without them. ###### From: Sylver Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:14:03 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49859 > Escapism, I think all fans of fiction and fantasy feed on it. We need > to > break the shackles of reality on a regular basis, it's like giving our > minds a well deserved holiday. It appeals more than real life stories > simply because it isn't ... > > We have an urge to lose ourselves in lands of magic, creatures and > technology that could never be. Everyone feels sometimes that their life > and the world around them is grey, boring, hopeless ... > That's why peace of mind is granted to us by fantasy. The last thing you > want is to read more about the real world and it's politics. > It's easier to get caught up in, and lost in, a fairy tale than in true > life stories and history. In the world of fantasy, anything can happen, and > everything is brand new and wonderful. It's an exploration into the unknow, > not bound by the rules of science or "common sense". I had a friend who used to say, "It's either fantastical fiction or LSD, and I think maybe the fiction might be a bit better for me." Not that this ever stopped him from using the latter to escape. Then again, I've noticed that people with active imaginations, who need something beyond everyday life, and factual history, use drugs more often than those who are "scientific", or just plain anal, of course. Geannie. (Sylver) -- Call your damnable hunt, And we shall see, Who I drag, Screaming to hell with me! ~Gunter Diorn ###### From: Sylver Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:18:01 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3B8B1B79.53435E7A@subdimension.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.stealth.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49850 Donald Shepherd wrote: > In article <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris > says... > > > > pawn wrote in message > > news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > > > > > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > > > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? > > > > Most of them aren't as well written IMO... > > And a lot of it is really dull. Leviticus and Psalms, for instance. > -- > > Donald Shepherd > > > Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: > "A lone testicle lay in a barren field." The only part of the whole book I'd recommend to anyone would be Revelation. That's a fantasy novel in itself, I think. Geannie (Sylver) -- Call your damnable hunt, And we shall see, Who I drag, Screaming to hell with me! ~Gunter Diorn ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:04:45 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B8B1B79.53435E7A@subdimension.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998975090 16839 192.168.30.2 (28 Aug 2001 05:04:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2001 05:04:50 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49881 In article <3B8B1B79.53435E7A@subdimension.com>, Sylver says... > > > Donald Shepherd wrote: > > > In article <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris > > says... > > > > > > pawn wrote in message > > > news:KOji7.4684$at.1211073@news1.busy1.on.home.com... > > > > > > > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > > > > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? > > > > > > Most of them aren't as well written IMO... > > > > And a lot of it is really dull. Leviticus and Psalms, for instance. > > -- > > > > Donald Shepherd > > > > > > Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: > > "A lone testicle lay in a barren field." > > The only part of the whole book I'd recommend to anyone would be Revelation. > That's a fantasy novel in itself, I think. A lot of the Old Testament is quite interesting as well. Never did reach Revelation... makes me wonder if I should have :). -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: "A lone testicle lay in a barren field." ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:06:36 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <9mee3h$lqk$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998975201 16839 192.168.30.2 (28 Aug 2001 05:06:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2001 05:06:41 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49875 In article , Boris Badenov says... > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:39:05 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: > > |And a lot of it is really dull. Leviticus and Psalms, for instance. > > Leviticus, I grant. It comes alive, however, once you become familiar with the typology. But > Psalms? The Psalms rock! If you read them in wholesale bunches, the imprecatory > psalms get old really fast, and I find it difficult to appreciate them as song lyrics, but the > Psalms are some of the most important, most exciting, most compelling words ever spoken. We would > be immensley poorer without them. Most important? To a Christian maybe. Most exciting? To a Christian maybe. Most compelling? To a Christian maybe. If you're reading the Bible as a collection of fantasy short stories, then they are _dull_. -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: "A lone testicle lay in a barren field." ###### From: "Mark Reichert" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <2ONi7.387$ck.20509@sjc-read.news.verio.net> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:21:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.248.209.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read.news.verio.net 999008510 209.248.209.14 (Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:21:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:21:50 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!bromo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50050 "Lady Cin" wrote in message news:tolcphspak9e8a@corp.supernews.com... > As an example of Prime Escapism...pick up and read the 'Guardians of the > Flame' series...that's the kind of escapism I would love to happen to me :) I've read them. Too much death and sacrifice for my tastes. Also don't like that as far as their friends and family back home know, they've just disappeared. ###### From: mcjabba@iname.com (Jabba) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:10:12 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 64 Message-ID: <5882b57b.0108281110.7f2646e3@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.154.78.232 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 999025812 18739 127.0.0.1 (28 Aug 2001 19:10:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2001 19:10:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!bromo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50058 Hi! "pawn" wrote in message news:... > Let me preface by saying, I'm in no way a zealot. > > I often struggle with the effect LotR has on me. I don't! The fact that I want to > believe. I want to believe there's some sort of reailty involved. It was REAL!You now, Tolkien was merely a copist of some old manuscripts!!!He never claimed to be something else and many distortions that we found in the books are due to passage of time.e.t.c, e.t.c,.... > > But, having come from a Catholic upbringing (long since abandoned), why > aren't the stories from the Bible as appealing? Because of the arhaic cumbersome language,teacher-like tone, incapacity to psychically relate to the characters, fuzzy and inconsequent characters, strict and often contradictory moral meaning, the usual and normal human attitude of rejection of any imposed doctrine,distorted and senseless plots.You pick one or add a new one. >And why read the (history > book formatted) Silmarillion, when I could read real history. That is completely subjective.I like both and find them related to each other.My best guesses are that you either find the history boring because there is no magic (to put it raw) involved, or you have too much empathy and you find it painfully and tiresome to read. > > Isn't there enough drama, suspense, and awe inspiring story telling in the > real world? More then enough.But it's common compared to fantasy.You can't argue that.And there's the difference in where it touches you.You may watch Elves getting slaughtered by Morgoth (in the upcoming movie "The Silmarillion") and go home thinking what a nice movie...while if you see "Schindler's List" or "Amistad" - not particular good movies, but the movies I consider good from this point of view, are probably less famous - and go home ashamed of being human. > > I mean, you could become so involved with Middle Earth that you believe the > entire creation story, the myths, the history, etc.. But, if I'm going to > invest my time and emotions (and soul ;^) in something, why not stories > (like the Bible, or Koran, or Book of Moses, or Book of Tau) that actually > have a remote possibility of being true. Why bother asking this question?Is there an advantage in choosing one or the other?I don't think so.One can choose both, as I did, or choose only one - no matter which - as far as you get in exchange a richer mind and soul. > > Finally, is it possible that Tolkien (or fantasy in general) satisfies that > same primal need that religious types have filled by going to church every > sunday (i.e., the need to believe in something greater than myself)? Yes,it is possible.The probability is different from 0 and therefore it is possible.You could have answered that yourself. Regards, Jabba ###### From: Andrew F Donnell Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:47:16 -0400 Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3B8C0354.420044AD@indiana.edu> References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-124-18.dial.indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!bromo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49919 Sylver wrote: > Then again, I've noticed that > people with active imaginations, who need something beyond everyday life, and > factual history, use drugs more often than those who are "scientific", or just > plain anal, of course. Does this mean that those of us who are scientific and anal lack active imaginations? Andy. ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <280820011640055755%dsalo@usa.net> References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:38:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 999034736 208.170.95.118 (Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:38:56 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:38:56 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!bromo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49952 In article <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com>, Sylver wrote: > I had a friend who used to say, "It's either fantastical fiction or LSD, and I > think maybe the fiction might be a bit better for me." Not that this ever > stopped him from using the latter to escape. Then again, I've noticed that > people with active imaginations, who need something beyond everyday life, and > factual history, use drugs more often than those who are "scientific", or just > plain anal, of course. I haven't noticed this. I think we have different friends. DS ###### Message-ID: <3B8D23A7.502F3EE6@msn.com> From: Jeff George X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> <280820011640055755%dsalo@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:28:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.240.238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 999106122 204.186.240.238 (Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:28:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:28:42 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!ptdnetT!newsgateT.ptd.net!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50087 David Salo wrote: > > In article <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com>, Sylver > wrote: > > > I had a friend who used to say, "It's either fantastical fiction or LSD, and I > > think maybe the fiction might be a bit better for me." Not that this ever > > stopped him from using the latter to escape. Then again, I've noticed that > > people with active imaginations, who need something beyond everyday life, and > > factual history, use drugs more often than those who are "scientific", or just > > plain anal, of course. > > I haven't noticed this. I think we have different friends. > > DS Yeah, but I bet his friends are more fun to be around. -- ===================================================================== I don't want this anger that's burning in me. It's something from which it's so hard to be free. But none of the tears that we cry in sorrow or rage Can make any difference, or turn back the page. - David Gilmour ===================================================================== Jeff George ###### Message-ID: <3B8D2581.112E14A5@msn.com> From: Jeff George X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:36:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.240.238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 999106596 204.186.240.238 (Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:36:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:36:36 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!ptdnetT!newsgateT.ptd.net!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50082 > to my present circumstances. For those, I read the Bible, and yes, I find it both more compelling > and more relevant to those circumstances than Tolkien. Further, I do not lose track of which is > real and which is fantasy, but that is just about the only thread of reality I take with me when I But are they both fantasy? Which one do you consider real? -- ===================================================================== I don't want this anger that's burning in me. It's something from which it's so hard to be free. But none of the tears that we cry in sorrow or rage Can make any difference, or turn back the page. - David Gilmour ===================================================================== Jeff George ###### From: Sylver Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:32:06 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3B8DCFD5.96A6076F@subdimension.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> <280820011640055755%dsalo@usa.net> <3B8D23A7.502F3EE6@msn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50196 > Yeah, but I bet his friends are more fun to be around. > -- If you were referring to me, that's "her", not "him". -- Call your damnable hunt, And we shall see, Who I drag, Screaming to hell with me! ~Gunter Diorn ###### From: Sylver Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:36:41 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3B8DD0E9.5792A310@subdimension.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> <3B8C0354.420044AD@indiana.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.249.90.70!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50194 > Does this mean that those of us who are scientific and anal lack active > imaginations? > > Andy. Maybe not 'inactive' imaginations, but different than that of the artist. Then again, these are just my observations, my opinions, and I will admit to not having much tact at the best of times when stating them. Geannie (Sylver) -- Call your damnable hunt, And we shall see, Who I drag, Screaming to hell with me! ~Gunter Diorn ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:37:25 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3B8D2581.112E14A5@msn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 999153438 21511 192.168.30.2 (30 Aug 2001 06:37:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2001 06:37:18 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!bromo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50236 In article <3B8D2581.112E14A5@msn.com>, Jeff George says... > > to my present circumstances. For those, I read the Bible, and yes, I find it both more compelling > > and more relevant to those circumstances than Tolkien. Further, I do not lose track of which is > > real and which is fantasy, but that is just about the only thread of reality I take with me when I > > But are they both fantasy? Which one do you consider real? LotR of course. -- Donald Shepherd "If Tolkien had meant for us to have a sense of humor, he would have told us so." - Mark Reichert ###### Message-ID: <3B8EA5C4.7DEAC37E@msn.com> From: Jeff George X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> <280820011640055755%dsalo@usa.net> <3B8D23A7.502F3EE6@msn.com> <3B8DCFD5.96A6076F@subdimension.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:45:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.240.238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 999204317 204.186.240.238 (Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:45:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:45:17 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!ptdnetT!newsgateT.ptd.net!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50338 Sylver wrote: > > > Yeah, but I bet his friends are more fun to be around. > > -- > > If you were referring to me, that's "her", not "him". > -- I was, and I apologize. -- ===================================================================== I don't want this anger that's burning in me. It's something from which it's so hard to be free. But none of the tears that we cry in sorrow or rage Can make any difference, or turn back the page. - David Gilmour ===================================================================== Jeff George ###### From: Sylver Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:26:54 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3B90011E.4A33B4A2@subdimension.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01c12ecf$a85c1700$b435a488@RA-1796> <3B8B1A8B.FF6393CE@subdimension.com> <280820011640055755%dsalo@usa.net> <3B8D23A7.502F3EE6@msn.com> <3B8DCFD5.96A6076F@subdimension.com> <3B8EA5C4.7DEAC37E@msn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50385 Jeff George wrote: > Sylver wrote: > > > > > Yeah, but I bet his friends are more fun to be around. > > > -- > > > > If you were referring to me, that's "her", not "him". > > -- > > I was, and I apologize. > Thanks, for both things. -- Don't you know there ain't no Devil? That's just God when he's drunk. ~Tom Waits, (from Heartattack and Vine) ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: 31 Aug 2001 22:29:22 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 7 Message-ID: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 999296962 20005 128.214.205.27 (31 Aug 2001 22:29:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2001 22:29:22 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50412 pawn wrote: snip Because reality is grey. Nobody is a craftsman thousands of times greater than others. Nobody lives 500 years and nobody kills 70 trolls. Reality is boring. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:51:30 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p240.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 999298366 28261 212.205.253.240 (31 Aug 2001 22:52:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:52:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50382 Tamim wrote in message news:9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > > Because reality is grey. Nobody is a craftsman thousands of times > greater than others. Nobody lives 500 years and nobody kills 70 trolls. > Reality is boring. Blah. Reality contains an Alexander the Great and a Joan of Arc. It contains dinosaurs and Waterloo and chaos - and a universe complex beyond imagining, both macro- and microscopically. Reality may not be *sufficient* for the human mind which also requires imagination to satisfy itself - but you do it an injustice by calling it boring. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 3 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 31 Aug 2001 22:55:16 GMT References: <3B90011E.4A33B4A2@subdimension.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <20010831185516.21495.00007990@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50403 'Cause reality sucks. Russ ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 31 Aug 2001 23:29:09 GMT References: <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <20010831192909.08639.00008391@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50404 In article <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >Blah. Reality contains an Alexander the Great and a Joan of Arc. >It contains dinosaurs and Waterloo and chaos - and a universe >complex beyond imagining, both macro- and microscopically. > Geez, could have picked some examples that didn't have to do with war and death? Russ ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:05:52 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <7e90ptc7ju5rs39ifsbvknpkgrg7c2sft9@4ax.com> References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50433 On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:51:30 +0300, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > >Blah. Reality contains an Alexander the Great and a Joan of Arc. >It contains dinosaurs and Waterloo and chaos - and a universe >complex beyond imagining, both macro- and microscopically. > >Reality may not be *sufficient* for the human mind which also requires >imagination to satisfy itself - but you do it an injustice by calling it >boring. > People of limited imagination and education find reality boring because they cannot perceive all of the wonders of reality. People of great imagination and education find reality marvelously exciting. Of course fantasy is part of reality so we have the best of all possible worlds! the softrat "He who rubs owls" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "We are experiencing audio technicalities" -- Ralph Kiner, N. Y. Mets announcer ###### From: "spauldingae" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 06:17:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.176.25.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.sttln1.wa.home.com 999411471 24.176.25.102 (Sat, 01 Sep 2001 23:17:51 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 23:17:51 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.sttln1.wa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50537 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > Tamim wrote in message > news:9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > > > > Because reality is grey. Nobody is a craftsman thousands of times > > greater than others. Nobody lives 500 years and nobody kills 70 trolls. > > Reality is boring. > > Blah. Reality contains an Alexander the Great and a Joan of Arc. > It contains dinosaurs and Waterloo and chaos - and a universe > complex beyond imagining, both macro- and microscopically. > > Reality may not be *sufficient* for the human mind which also requires > imagination to satisfy itself - but you do it an injustice by calling it > boring. I throw this out there. I think that fantasy is more interesting to a lot of people because it's different then reality. In real life, no one ever fought a war or made an epic journey across the world to rid existance of a weapon of ultimate power. Such quests are common in fantasy. Reality does not have quite the fantastic quality. Why do you think the concept of atlantis is far more interesting to most people then the roman empire? Often, Fiction is more interesting then reality. Though I'll be the first to admit that fiction based off of or set in or around real events can be quite interesting and captivating as well. > Aris Katsaris > > ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <020920010345451491%dsalo@usa.net> References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 08:44:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 999420272 208.170.95.95 (Sun, 02 Sep 2001 03:44:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 03:44:32 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50455 In article , "spauldingae" wrote: > I throw this out there. I think that fantasy is more interesting to a lot of > people because it's different then reality. In real life, no one ever fought > a war or made an epic journey across the world to rid existance of a weapon > of ultimate power. Such quests are common in fantasy. Reality does not have > quite the fantastic quality. Why do you think the concept of atlantis is far > more interesting to most people then the roman empire? Often, Fiction is > more interesting then reality. I think the only thing Atlantis has got going for it *is* being fictional; if Atlantis had really existed, then it would just be another ancient culture studied by historians and archaeologists, and would be primarily of interest to the same people who are interested in the Roman Empire, or Ancient Egypt (i.e., people like me). Since there is no factual evidence for Atlantis, people can fill in whatever they like and their imaginations are unconstrained. DS ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:11:13 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8u05ptcpqihptllptgm32h4uq9r1vsg3j8@4ax.com> References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <020920010345451491%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-168.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50722 On Sun, 02 Sep 2001 08:44:32 GMT, David Salo wrote: | I think the only thing Atlantis has got going for it *is* being |fictional; if Atlantis had really existed, then it would just be |another ancient culture studied by historians and archaeologists, and |would be primarily of interest to the same people who are interested in |the Roman Empire, or Ancient Egypt (i.e., people like me). Since there |is no factual evidence for Atlantis, people can fill in whatever they |like and their imaginations are unconstrained. Is there not some basis to the belief that the Atlantis myth developed from the reality of the civilization of Minoan Crete that disappeared unexpectedly? That is about my sum total of knowledge on the subject, but I do remember that connection. ###### From: "spauldingae" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <020920010345451491%dsalo@usa.net> <8u05ptcpqihptllptgm32h4uq9r1vsg3j8@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 20:26:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.176.25.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.sttln1.wa.home.com 999462371 24.176.25.102 (Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:26:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:26:11 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.sttln1.wa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50706 "Boris Badenov" wrote in message news:8u05ptcpqihptllptgm32h4uq9r1vsg3j8@4ax.com... > On Sun, 02 Sep 2001 08:44:32 GMT, David Salo wrote: > > | I think the only thing Atlantis has got going for it *is* being > |fictional; if Atlantis had really existed, then it would just be > |another ancient culture studied by historians and archaeologists, and > |would be primarily of interest to the same people who are interested in > |the Roman Empire, or Ancient Egypt (i.e., people like me). Since there > |is no factual evidence for Atlantis, people can fill in whatever they > |like and their imaginations are unconstrained. > > Is there not some basis to the belief that the Atlantis myth developed from the reality of the > civilization of Minoan Crete that disappeared unexpectedly? That is about my sum total of knowledge > on the subject, but I do remember that connection. Well, the real atlantis was suposadly where the island of thera is is now, destroyed after a massive eruption. ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Message-ID: <020920011722445824%dsalo@usa.net> References: <9mp342$jh5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <020920010345451491%dsalo@usa.net> <8u05ptcpqihptllptgm32h4uq9r1vsg3j8@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:21:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 999469290 208.170.95.216 (Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:21:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:21:30 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50589 In article <8u05ptcpqihptllptgm32h4uq9r1vsg3j8@4ax.com>, Boris Badenov wrote: > Is there not some basis to the belief that the Atlantis myth developed from > the reality of the > civilization of Minoan Crete that disappeared unexpectedly? That is about my > sum total of knowledge > on the subject, but I do remember that connection. Some people have made that connection, yes, although I truly doubt that there is any real relationship, e.g. a distant memory of the Thira explosion that would have informed Plato's Atlantis story. If there were such a memory, it should have been found largely throughout Greek mythology, and not just in one Platonic dialogue. Anyway, Minoan Crete is no more interesting than Ancient Egypt or the Roman Empire. DS ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:07:50 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7803-3B92E5F6-90@storefull-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7e90ptc7ju5rs39ifsbvknpkgrg7c2sft9@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQ2c1cLt2+iq3aplO7OAnTyLCg2vAIUMuRYdIIuChjfwJLGUNkiDr44AVA= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50572 >People of limited imagination and >education find reality boring because >they cannot perceive all of the wonders >of reality. People of great imagination >and education find reality marvelously >exciting. >Of course fantasy is part of reality so we >have the best of all possible worlds! >the softrat "He who rubs owls" I was beginning to be insulted by that, until I realized I must be _fascinated_ by reality. Otherwise, I would hardly gossip as much as I do.... Oh, wait... nevermind. I think I just insulted myself. ;-) ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why fantasy? Why not reality? Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:44:39 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010831192909.08639.00008391@nso-cg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: houkdhcp247.chem.ucla.edu X-Trace: persian.noc.ucla.edu 999553504 28945 169.232.140.247 (3 Sep 2001 21:45:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:45:04 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!houkdhcp247.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50682 In article <20010831192909.08639.00008391@nso-cg.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <9mp4ft$rj5$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" > writes: > > >Blah. Reality contains an Alexander the Great and a Joan of Arc. > >It contains dinosaurs and Waterloo and chaos - and a universe > >complex beyond imagining, both macro- and microscopically. > > > > Geez, could have picked some examples that didn't have to do with war and > death? Bach and Monet and Tolkien and Jesus and Buddha and Gandhi and Dr. King and Einstein and ............... Bruce