From: Rich Carreiro Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Date: 25 Aug 2001 21:58:14 -0400 Organization: Animato, Ltd. Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: news@animato.arlington.ma.us NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2001 01:58:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: animato.ne.mediaone.net X-Trace: 998791803 senator-bedfellow.mit.edu 1928 24.147.210.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49591 I've finally gotten 'round to wondering what the cirth and tengwar texts on the title page of LOTR. I've pieced together the cirth as saying (phonetically): "The Lord of the Rings, translated from the Red Book" But I do not have the patience to figure out what the tengwar is. I'm sure someone here must know :) Also, why is it that the cirth in the ROTK appendix has various dots over/under some glyphs, but the title page inscruption has none? -- Rich Carreiro rlcarr@animato.arlington.ma.us ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Message-ID: <3b885d30.4058960@news.powersurfr.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 02:22:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 998792350 24.108.184.50 (Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:19:10 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:19:10 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!64.154.60.72.MISMATCH!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49647 On 25 Aug 2001 21:58:14 -0400, Rich Carreiro wrote, in part: >Also, why is it that the cirth in the ROTK appendix has >various dots over/under some glyphs, but the title >page inscruption has none? Since the title page one is probably representing something in English, they've decided to use the additional letters that represent vowels, to make it easier to read? John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/other/abaint.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: From: frodojrr@attglobal.net Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:43:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Message-ID: <3b8862e7$1$sebqbwee$mr2ice@news1.attglobal.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for Windows v2.29bw/28 (Unregistered) NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-12-64-169-217.mis.prserv.net X-Trace: 26 Aug 2001 02:59:14 GMT, slip-12-64-169-217.mis.prserv.net Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!newsfeed2.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news1.prserv.net!slip-12-64-169-217.mis.prserv.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49573 In , on 08/25/01 at 09:58 PM, Rich Carreiro said: >But I do not have the patience to figure out what >the tengwar is. I'm sure someone here must know :) >Also, why is it that the cirth in the ROTK appendix has >various dots over/under some glyphs, but the title >page inscruption has none? It's been a while since I dabbled in the Tolkien languages. However, I suspect that Tolkien may have been inspired by Hebrew. Hebrew is composed of consonants. The vowels are points or dots above or below the consonants. Native speakers do not need the points, so they commonly write by leaving them out. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Gary Kopycinski Frodo Lives!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 26 Message-ID: <14068-3B886B6D-43@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQHBcYhnF8eXUQnCNlNOAET2XR0gQIUH4+CXPK2qnLAuVPebVa6WLozv8o= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49581 Rich Carreiro wrote: >I've finally gotten 'round to wondering >what the cirth and tengwar texts on the >title page of LOTR. >I've pieced together the cirth as saying >(phonetically): "The Lord of the Rings, >translated from the Red Book" >But I do not have the patience to figure >out what the tengwar is. I'm sure >someone here must know :) This is the entirety of the title-page inscription: "The Lord of the Rings, translated ftom the Red Book of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien: herein is set forth the history of the War of the Rings and the Return of the King as seen by the Hobbits." --Dave ds50.geo @ yahoo.com Assorted Tolkien stuff: http://www.geocities.com/ds50.geo/tolkien ###### From: "James Giles" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: <16_h7.26639$Ki1.2202932@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:33:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.102.148.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 998796797 32.102.148.142 (Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:33:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:33:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49607 "Rich Carreiro" wrote in message news:m3g0afshu1.fsf@animato.animato.arlington.ma.us... > I've finally gotten 'round to wondering what > the cirth and tengwar texts on the title > page of LOTR. > > I've pieced together the cirth as saying (phonetically): > "The Lord of the Rings, translated from the Red Book" The Tengwar is a continuation of the above sentence: "of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the Return of the King as seen by the Hobbits." It uses some additional single characters which stand for the words "of", "the", and the phrase "of the". The word "and" is written as a single glyph (for 'd') with marks both above and below it. I think there are a few passages in one of the HoME volumes pertaining to the use of Tengwar in writing English. -- J. Giles ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:15:19 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <8d1hotod9k7oabck7ot76chg74ptql4kmh@4ax.com> References: <16_h7.26639$Ki1.2202932@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49683 On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:33:17 GMT, "James Giles" wrote: >I think there are a few passages in >one of the HoME volumes pertaining to the use of Tengwar >in writing English. No.pe It's all in the appendices in vol III of tLotR. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- It's not only unique, it's different. ###### From: "James Giles" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <16_h7.26639$Ki1.2202932@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8d1hotod9k7oabck7ot76chg74ptql4kmh@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Cirth and Tengwar on the LOTR title page Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:22:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.102.148.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 998803378 32.102.148.78 (Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:22:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:22:58 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49604 "the softrat" wrote in message news:8d1hotod9k7oabck7ot76chg74ptql4kmh@4ax.com... > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:33:17 GMT, "James Giles" > wrote: > > >I think there are a few passages in > >one of the HoME volumes pertaining to the use of Tengwar > >in writing English. > > No.pe It's all in the appendices in vol III of tLotR. Well, there is sufficient information in Appendix E, section II to decipher the title page. But, it's even stated right there that the title page is too short a sample to exhibit much of the details of using Tengwar with modern English. However, HoME doesn't contain the short essay I remember after all (I just loked). I don't recall where I saw it. -- J. Giles