From: mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: 24 Aug 2001 12:00:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 88 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.217.195 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998679653 6583 127.0.0.1 (24 Aug 2001 19:00:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Aug 2001 19:00:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49536 Maybe Gollum *was* schizophrenic, or perhaps the Ring caused a sort of forced schizophrenia in Gollum. And I'm not just referring to Gollum's habit of talking to himself (though this kind of markedly peculiar behavior is considered a prodromal or residual symptom). Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum (from the DSM-II-R) include: 1) "delusions" (most definitely) 2) "incoherence or marked loosening of associations" (this can be argued to be true or false) 3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt) 4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.") 5) "Prominent hallucinations..." [I know this doesn't seem relevant but keep reading] "...of a voice with content having no apparent relation to depression or elation, or a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other" (Gollum, of course, CONSTANTLY has a running commentary with himself--"Cautious, my precious! More haste less speed. We musstn't rissk our neck, musst we, precious?") 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?) 7) "Continuous signs of the disturbance for at least six months." (try ageses!) 8) "It cannot be established that an organic factor initiated and maintained the disturbance" Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"? I know this analysis is pretty silly and is valuable only insofar as we can attribute a modern psychological condition to any of Tolkien's fictional characters (not to mention the one whose life has been preternaturally extended and who lived out much of the Third Age alone in the deep caverns under the Misty Mountains). In this same pseudoserious vein, I propose that Sauron was a victim of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A listing of the symptoms will indicate why: A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love (3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) (4) requires excessive admiration (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes Yep. That's Sauron alright. So all he needed was a good shrink. All that Second and Third Age trouble for nothing! --Mike ###### Message-ID: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> From: Katherine Tredwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 130 Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:43:07 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.15.167.85 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ou.edu X-Trace: news.ou.edu 998768568 129.15.167.85 (Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:42:48 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:42:48 CDT Organization: The University of Oklahoma Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!leto.ou.edu!news.ou.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49681 Okay, if this conversation really is going to rear its ugly head, I better say something. Michael Jacobson wrote: > Maybe Gollum *was* schizophrenic, or perhaps the Ring caused a sort of > forced schizophrenia in Gollum. And I'm not just referring to > Gollum's habit of talking to himself (though this kind of markedly > peculiar behavior is considered a prodromal or residual symptom). > > Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum > (from the DSM-II-R) include: You *do* mean the DSM-III-R, right? > 1) "delusions" (most definitely) Yep. And paranoid ones, too. > 2) "incoherence or marked loosening of associations" (this can be > argued to be true or false) Agreed. > 3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt) I don't see that, actually. Gollum's affect seems pretty consistent with what we can know of his thoughts and his worldview. His anger, cowering, laughing, sneaking, all fit together. I don't recall samples of anything that would fit the sort of inappropriate affect you typically see in schizophrenics, like laughing or crying for no reason at all. I'd expect him to, say, laugh when he finds out the Precious is beyond his reach, or cringe and whimper when Frodo praises him. > 4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions > regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it > spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.") Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's right to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are looking for him may not be so unreasonable. > 5) "Prominent hallucinations..." [I know this doesn't seem relevant > but keep reading] "...of a voice with content having no apparent > relation to depression or elation, or a voice keeping up a running > commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices > conversing with each other" (Gollum, of course, CONSTANTLY has a > running commentary with himself--"Cautious, my precious! More haste > less speed. We musstn't rissk our neck, musst we, precious?") Now you are reaching. Gollum talks to himself--but we have no evidence that he heard voices. And we have an excellent alternative reason for his tendency to talk to himself, namely the long time he spent alone under the Misty Mountains. Tolkien tells us so himself: Gollum "always spoke to himself through never having anyone else to speak to." (from TH) I'd say this, more than anything else, is what rules out schizophrenia as a diagnosis for Gollum. No voices, probably no schiz. > 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as > work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest > level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow > *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?) Gollum lets himself go, but I think it is more in the manner of an addict than a schizophrenic. What goes by the wayside is anything not immediately necessary to his life and his habit: eating, skulking, getting the Ring. But when it comes to those things, he is *very* competent. He catches fish with his bare hands. He manages to escape from or elude quite skilled people. Most important, he is able to devise and very nearly execute an elaborate plan to get back his Precious, one that involves deliberately deceiving the hobbits for some time, guiding them undetected past some of the worst perils Middle-Earth has to offer, and negotiating with Shelob. He doesn't *quite* pull it off, but not because of low functioning levels. By way of contrast, your average schizophrenic can't even keep their delusions straight from week to week, let alone sneak Ringbearing hobbits past Ringwraiths. > 7) "Continuous signs of the disturbance for at least six months." (try > ageses!) Definitely! > 8) "It cannot be established that an organic factor initiated and > maintained the disturbance" > > Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a > tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"? I would say so. I think the stipulation is intended to exclude identifiable external factors, because schizophrenia is still mysterious in its origins. Thus, a brain tumor or abnormal thyroid functioning, while they may cause symptoms identical to the DSM description of schizophrenia, don't qualify. Also, the Ring is the source of another symptom clearly not a part of schizophrenia, namely, extended life. In Tolkien's world, mortals are not supposed to live so long, and the effects of Gollum's abnormal extended lifespan must be taken into consideration. Could someone who lives for centuries just get *bored* with keeping up their personal appearance, for example? Note that the DSM-IV mentions among its differential diagnoses "substance abuse." Could we call the Ring a "substance"? Now, if you want to argue that JRRT could have had in mind a vague impression of what "crazy" people are like when he was working on Gollum's character, you might have something. Trying to work down a checklist that wasn't designed for decades after Gollum came into being, though, is either an exercise in futility or in need of, well, a little more panache. Katherine Tredwell ###### From: Skylar Thompson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:49:32 -0500 Organization: STARFLEET Lines: 28 Sender: skylar@starfleet.attglobal.net Message-ID: References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> Reply-To: Skylar Thompson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-X-Sender: In-Reply-To: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> X-Accept-Primary-Language: en X-Accept-Secondary-Language: es X-Accept-Tertiary-Language: Quenya X-System: Red Hat 6.1 Linux starfleet 2.2.18 i686 X-Mailer: Pine 4.33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.100.182.38 X-Trace: 26 Aug 2001 00:53:59 GMT, 32.100.182.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.gtei.net.MISMATCH!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news3.prserv.net!rhino_house.attglobal.net!starfleet.attglobal.net!skylar Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49602 On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Katherine Tredwell wrote: > Michael Jacobson wrote: > > > 4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions > > regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it > > spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.") > > Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a > counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on > him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's > right > to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring > keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there > was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are > looking for him may not be so unreasonable. Also remember the origins of the Moon in Middle-Earth, and the effect on Morgoth and his forces when it first rose. They were frightened both by the darkness and the fact that Isil was a Maia. Maybe the Ring conferred that fright to Gollum from Sauron? -- Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net) P(4.2.2) + "Skylar DXLIX" DMPo L:36 DL:2500' A++ R+++ Sp w:Stormbringer A(JLE)*/P*/Z/J64/Ad L/O H+ D+ c f-/f PV+ s TT- d++/d+ P++ M/M+ C- S++ I+/I++ So B+ ac GHB++ SQ++ RQ+ V+ F:JLE F: Possessors strong again ###### From: mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: 26 Aug 2001 09:37:46 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 130 Message-ID: References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.147.78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998843866 6516 127.0.0.1 (26 Aug 2001 16:37:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2001 16:37:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49676 Katherine Tredwell wrote in message news:<3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu>... > > Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum > > (from the DSM-II-R) include: > > You *do* mean the DSM-III-R, right? Yep. My typo. > > > 1) "delusions" (most definitely) > > > 3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt) > > I don't see that, actually. Gollum's affect seems pretty consistent with > what > we can know of his thoughts and his worldview. His anger, cowering, > laughing, sneaking, all fit together. I don't recall samples of anything > that > would fit the sort of inappropriate affect you typically see in > schizophrenics, > like laughing or crying for no reason at all. I'd expect him to, say, > laugh > when he finds out the Precious is beyond his reach, or cringe and whimper > when Frodo praises him. You're absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing this out. > Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a > counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on > him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's > right > to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring > keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there > was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are > looking for him may not be so unreasonable. It would be a good time to mention that I was wondering if the whole situation that Gollum was in created a sort of simulated schizophrenia in him. Obviously, in a world where the moon and the sun (and sometimes even stars) WERE in fact sentient powers, this sort of speculation fails. > the Misty Mountains. Tolkien tells us so himself: Gollum "always spoke > to himself through never having anyone else to speak to." (from TH) > > I'd say this, more than anything else, is what rules out schizophrenia as > a diagnosis for Gollum. No voices, probably no schiz. Again, schizophrenia is simulated here. It is clear that there IS a voice that is continuously observing and commenting on everything that Gollum does and thinks; the fact that this voice is externalized doesn't change that fact. > > > 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as > > work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest > > level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow > > *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?) > > Gollum lets himself go, but I think it is more in the manner of an addict > than a schizophrenic. > By way of contrast, your average schizophrenic can't even keep their > delusions straight from week to week, let alone sneak Ringbearing > hobbits past Ringwraiths. Yeah, but that symptom mentions only "areas such as work, social relations, and self-care...", not his ability to scheme or plan with cunning. a) there is no way Gollum could hold down any job. I assume that's what the DSM meant by "work." b) his "social relations" were pretty miserable from the time he got the Ring till his death. I don't think his dealings with Shelob can count here. He has no friends, and he trusts no one. c) his appearance belies the fact that Gollum did NOT take care of himself. Only c is up for debate in my mind, as, even though Gollum's appearance was pretty miserable, he DID technically keep himself alive for QUITE a long time. > > Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a > > tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"? > > I would say so. I think the stipulation is intended to exclude > identifiable > external factors, because schizophrenia is still mysterious in its > origins. I agree. > > Note that the DSM-IV mentions among its differential diagnoses > "substance abuse." Could we call the Ring a "substance"? Sure. Why not? > Now, if you want to argue that JRRT could have had in mind a vague > impression of what "crazy" people are like when he was working on > Gollum's character, you might have something. No, I won't argue that! > Trying to work down > a checklist that wasn't designed for decades after Gollum came into > being, though, is either an exercise in futility or in need of, well, a > little > more panache. You did know I was being tongue and cheek about all this schizophrenia business, right? ;-) As I mentioned in my first message in the thread, I'm not being serious, and trying to attribute modern psychological conditions to fictional characters in a fantastical world is just silly. But it can be fun to discuss even silly speculation, right? In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis of Gollum? --Mike ###### Lines: 95 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Aug 2001 19:05:03 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (wa... Message-ID: <20010824150503.01701.00006586@nso-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49479 In article , mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) writes: >Maybe Gollum *was* schizophrenic, or perhaps the Ring caused a sort of >forced schizophrenia in Gollum. And I'm not just referring to >Gollum's habit of talking to himself (though this kind of markedly >peculiar behavior is considered a prodromal or residual symptom). > >Some of the *major* symptoms of schizophrenia that apply to Gollum >(from the DSM-II-R) include: > >1) "delusions" (most definitely) > >2) "incoherence or marked loosening of associations" (this can be >argued to be true or false) > >3) "flat or grossly inappropriate affect" (without a doubt) > >4) "Bizarre delusions" (this would include his implausible suspicions >regarding the moon--"Nassty, nassty shivery light it is - sss - it >spies on us, precious - it hurts our eyes.") > >5) "Prominent hallucinations..." [I know this doesn't seem relevant >but keep reading] "...of a voice with content having no apparent >relation to depression or elation, or a voice keeping up a running >commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices >conversing with each other" (Gollum, of course, CONSTANTLY has a >running commentary with himself--"Cautious, my precious! More haste >less speed. We musstn't rissk our neck, musst we, precious?") > >6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as >work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest >level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow >*doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?) > >7) "Continuous signs of the disturbance for at least six months." (try >ageses!) > >8) "It cannot be established that an organic factor initiated and >maintained the disturbance" > >Well, damn. That blows the schizophrenia theory, I guess. Or *can* a >tremendous, supernatural object be considered "an organic factor"? Heck, all the symptoms you just described apply to those who think balrogs have wings. >In this same pseudoserious vein, I propose that Sauron was a victim of >Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A listing of the symptoms will >indicate why: > >A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for >admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and >present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of >the following: > >(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates >achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without >commensurate achievements) > >(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, >brilliance, beauty, or ideal love > >(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be >understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status >people (or institutions) > >(4) requires excessive admiration > >(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of >especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her >expectations > >(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others >to achieve his or her own ends > >(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the >feelings and needs of others > >(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of >him or her > >(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes > >Yep. That's Sauron alright. So all he needed was a good shrink. All >that Second and Third Age trouble for nothing! That also describes most members of the Screen Actors Guild. Russ ###### From: "M. Perry" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:30:09 -0700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: sea-208242.dialup.foxinternet.com X-Trace: 24 Aug 2001 14:32:21 -0700, sea-208242.dialup.foxinternet.com Lines: 44 X-Authenticated-User: blackhole33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.foxinternet.com!blackhole33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49430 By this definition, half or more of Hollywood's celebrities have a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad Sauron does not have a major, on-screen role in the film. It would be very easy to cast someone as him. Just tell someone like Alex Baldwin to "act natural" and they'd fit the part perfectly. --MP > In this same pseudoserious vein, I propose that Sauron was a victim of > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A listing of the symptoms will > indicate why: > > A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for > admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and > present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of > the following: > > (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates > achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without > commensurate achievements) > > (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, > brilliance, beauty, or ideal love > > (3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be > understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status > people (or institutions) > > (4) requires excessive admiration > > (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of > especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her > expectations > > (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others > to achieve his or her own ends > > (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the > feelings and needs of others > > (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of > him or her > > (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Organization: Land of Storm and Chaos References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "\LJ/5EA;~k%mAErPj*&_K+tI#fz(4+WNg)5Z)pZA4{#aVTjw0>{-C}h~~X;G2ylL:Pm@^+"1$1o\mr(R,+~dT#>^1;}[N)J5\T=\VDpM]nF4Pw7&L6|NdUs,9]/{O"D6splJ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:31:26 -0500 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: tayhou-217-232.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 998774719 tayhou-217-232.ev1.net (25 Aug 2001 16:25:19 -0500) Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.twtelecom.net!newsa.ev1.net!jubjub Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49660 In article <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu>, Katherine Tredwell wrote: > Note that the DSM-IV mentions among its differential diagnoses > "substance abuse." Could we call the Ring a "substance"? I always had in mind that Gollum was suffering from addiction. > Now, if you want to argue that JRRT could have had in mind a vague > impression of what "crazy" people are like when he was working on > Gollum's character, you might have something. Trying to work down > a checklist that wasn't designed for decades after Gollum came into > being, though, is either an exercise in futility or in need of, well, a > little more panache. It speaks more to the author's accuracy and realism in portraying the character. Gollum is fairly believable as Tolkien described him. -- Lord Jubjub Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves, Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch ###### Message-ID: <3B8AA31C.799EFD82@msn.com> From: Jeff George X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3b89d4e6.1941558@news.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:55:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.240.238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 998942146 204.186.240.238 (Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:55:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:55:46 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.174.75.178!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!ptdnetT!newsgateT.ptd.net!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49805 John Savard wrote: > > > Clinical depression, certainly. Basically, though, he is a sad and > bitter creature, blaming everyone but himself for his problems, and > incapable of accepting any responsibility himself. Quite possibly a > psychopath. Also, there is evident regression to a childlike, > impulsive state. > Shit. I'm Gollum. -- ===================================================================== Mark my words, believe my soul lives on. Don't worry now that I have gone, I've gone beyond to seek the truth. When you know that your time is close at hand Maybe then you'll begin to understand Life down there is just a strange illusion. - Steve Harris ===================================================================== Jeff George ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Message-ID: <3b89d4e6.1941558@news.powersurfr.com> References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 30 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 05:09:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 998888753 24.108.184.50 (Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:05:53 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:05:53 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49760 On 26 Aug 2001 09:37:46 -0700, mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) wrote, in part: >You did know I was being tongue and cheek about all this schizophrenia >business, right? ;-) As I mentioned in my first message in the >thread, I'm not being serious, and trying to attribute modern >psychological conditions to fictional characters in a fantastical >world is just silly. But it can be fun to discuss even silly >speculation, right? >In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis >of Gollum? It is clear to me that Gollum is not suffering from any condition remotely resembling schizophrenia. Clinical depression, certainly. Basically, though, he is a sad and bitter creature, blaming everyone but himself for his problems, and incapable of accepting any responsibility himself. Quite possibly a psychopath. Also, there is evident regression to a childlike, impulsive state. Although Gollum is an extreme case, given his extended lifespan, and the baleful influence of the One Ring, his case is not unlike that of large numbers of criminals, and I suspect there would be little hope of improvement through conventional treatment. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/other/slrint.htm ###### Message-ID: <3B8C367D.35723E45@ou.edu> From: Katherine Tredwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 128 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:34 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.15.167.249 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ou.edu X-Trace: news.ou.edu 999044718 129.15.167.249 (Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:18 CDT Organization: The University of Oklahoma Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!leto.ou.edu!news.ou.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50074 Michael Jacobson wrote: > Katherine Tredwell wrote in message news:<3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu>... [...] > > Yeah, some of his delusions push the bizarre, although there is a > > counter-argument to be made. For example, saying the moon spies on > > him reflects the reality that it allows *others* to spy on him--so he's > > right > > to be paranoid. Again, he might be long accustomed to having the Ring > > keep an eye on him, so to speak, and in the last years of his life there > > was Sauron too--so his belief that weird supernatural powers are > > looking for him may not be so unreasonable. > > It would be a good time to mention that I was wondering if the whole > situation that Gollum was in created a sort of simulated schizophrenia > in him. Obviously, in a world where the moon and the sun (and > sometimes even stars) WERE in fact sentient powers, this sort of > speculation fails. Not necessarily, which is why I hedged on this one. Even if the sun and moon are sentient, it could be a delusion for Gollum to think they take a special interest in *him*. Delusions of reference, I think. > > the Misty Mountains. Tolkien tells us so himself: Gollum "always spoke > > to himself through never having anyone else to speak to." (from TH) > > > > I'd say this, more than anything else, is what rules out schizophrenia as > > a diagnosis for Gollum. No voices, probably no schiz. > > Again, schizophrenia is simulated here. It is clear that there IS a > voice that is continuously observing and commenting on everything that > Gollum does and thinks; the fact that this voice is externalized > doesn't change that fact. This point is the "matter of interpretation" in this thread. Does Gollum's talking to himself represent a "voice" or not? Schizophrenic hallucinations and delusions have a strong external quality, in which thoughts are put into your head, someone makes psychic assaults on you, etc. Gollum's voice is his own. I am also hesitant to put aside an explanation Tolkien gives in the voice of an omniscient narrator, even though it was before he had fully developed the idea of what Gollum had. But there's an argument either way. I admit, that if I passed Gollum sitting on the street, and heard him muttering to himself, I'd think "schizophrenia." > > > 6) "During the course of the disturbance, functioning in areas such as > > > work, social relations, and self-care is markedly below the highest > > > level achieved before onset of the disturbance" (the old fellow > > > *doesn't* really "keep himself up" like he should, does he?) > > > > Gollum lets himself go, but I think it is more in the manner of an addict > > than a schizophrenic. > > > By way of contrast, your average schizophrenic can't even keep their > > delusions straight from week to week, let alone sneak Ringbearing > > hobbits past Ringwraiths. > > Yeah, but that symptom mentions only "areas such as work, social > relations, and self-care...", not his ability to scheme or plan with > cunning. I based my statement, I confess, on how I have seen the DSM applied as much as what it says word-for-word. Basic levels of care go because the ability to do anything more elaborate has gone long ago. > a) there is no way Gollum could hold down any job. I assume that's > what the DSM meant by "work." In our world...but in Middle Earth, how many people get by without a job, as long as they can put together basic sustenance? Strider's basic job description might be, "roam the wilderness eating stuff you find, and kill whatever you deem inconvenient." Gollum manages that too, just not as gracefully. [Okay, big smileys here] > b) his "social relations" were pretty miserable from the time he got > the Ring till his death. I don't think his dealings with Shelob can > count here. He has no friends, and he trusts no one. You're right that Shelob doesn't constitute a social life (doesn't LOTR say he "worshipped" her?). Gollum doesn't have a social life. Is it schizophrenia or just paranoia? > c) his appearance belies the fact that Gollum did NOT take care of > himself. > > Only c is up for debate in my mind, as, even though Gollum's > appearance was pretty miserable, he DID technically keep himself alive > for QUITE a long time. I won't try to argue that he didn't let himself go. It just looks to me more like the lack of grooming that goes with addiction (nothing matters but the next fix) more than schizophrenia (where you get weird statements like "blue blush looks good!" and "I hear voices when I get in the bathtub.") One more symptom to add in favor of schizophrenia: disorganized speech. People who talk to him evidently get quite fed up with all his mutterings and irrelevancies. [...] > In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis > of Gollum? Well, I don't think he has Multiple Personality Disorder, as was suggested on the "What Would Gollum Do?" thread. (That thread has me wanting WWGD jewellry *so* bad....) He never seems to have blackouts or lost memory. That was a universal of "multiple personalities" until quite recently. For someone who wanted to push the dissociation/personalities angle, I'd consider "Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified." But I'm inclined more to agree with you, at least that Gollum is psychotic, if not full-blown schizophrenic. So the safe diagnosis would be "Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise Specified." I love DSM's hedging! But I have another suggestion. Since it will take some space I'll save it for another post. Katherine Tredwell ###### Message-ID: <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> From: Katherine Tredwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 177 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:43:13 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.15.167.249 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ou.edu X-Trace: news.ou.edu 999045777 129.15.167.249 (Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:42:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:42:57 CDT Organization: The University of Oklahoma Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!leto.ou.edu!news.ou.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50078 Michael Jacobson wrote: > In that vein, and "psychologically speaking," what is your diagnosis > of Gollum? My suggestion: Gollum suffers from an extremely rare condition called "Annular Obsession Disorder." The committee that worked on the DSM-IV rejected my proposed diagnostic category, and subsequent attempts to publish my work on it have failed. So, in the interests of science, I present a sample of my notes to the newsgroups. Annular Obsession Disorder [AOD] In order to be diagnosed with AOD, the patient must meet the following criteria: A. Possession of a Ring of Power. [hereafter referred to as ROP] This is generally the most difficult symptom to verify. Patients with AOD are very secretive about their disorder and will omit to mention, or outright deny, ownership of a ROP. AOD should be suspected even without evidence of a ROP if other criteria are met, particularly if the patient expresses a desire to regain some unspecified “trifle” or small thing of no value. B. Denial of past or present possession of a ROP, or elaborate justification for its possession. This appears to be part of a psychological defense mechanism to protect the desired object and ensure it is not taken by another. Justifications may include asserting that the ROP was intended by fate as a gift, or that it is a payment for past wrongs. C. Obsessive desire to retain the ROP or to regain it if it has been lost or taken. D. Three (or more) of the following must be observed for a significant amount of time for a period of at least one month following possession of the ROP: * A pathological “will to power,” manifesting in such ways as delusions of grandeur, ambitions of world conquest, or excessive lust for gold (in Dwarves). * Paranoia, expressed in the belief that one is being watched or plotted against, usually in connection with the ROP. The ROP itself may be said to be observing its owner. * Secretive, furtive, or antisocial behavior. * Belief that one’s will is dominated by another or that commands are inserted into one’s head, usually in connection with the ROP. * Somatic or tactile hallucinations involving the ROP, such as feeling one’s hand moving “involuntarily” to the ROP, that it is a dragging weight, or that it changes in size or temperature. * Supernatural abilities, such as invisibility and extended lifespan. Case 1 Mr. B. B. is an elderly hobbit of respectable background formerly residing in the Shire. While on an extended vacation at the age of 50, Mr. B. found a ROP that had been lost by a local and, rather than reporting his find to the proper authorities, put it in his pocket as a souvenir. He successfully concealed the ROP for some time. Even after he was forced to reveal its existence to his fellow vacationers, following their discovery of his newfound powers of invisibility, he dissembled concerning the exact details of how he obtained it. After returning home, Mr. B. continued to hide the ROP from his community, only telling one or two trusted family members about it. He did, however, make use of its invisibility to avoid disliked relatives. His extreme old age (he is currently 129 years) must also be attributed to the ROP. Over time, he found himself dwelling on the ROP. He said that “it has been so growing on my mind lately” and that “it was like an eye looking at me.” A social worker assigned to his case reported that he was able to persuade the patient to relinquish the ROP only with great difficulty (this seemed the best course of action to help break a pattern of obsessive thoughts resulting from constant fondling of the object). Mr. B. twice attempted to leave the caseworker’s presence with the ROP concealed in his pocket, and might have done so a third time had the social worker not seized it. Mr. B. reported immediate relief after surrendering the ROP. His successful adjustment must be attributed in large part to his having found a supportive community in Rivendell. Nevertheless, he suffered a temporary relapse following brief exposure to the ROP. AOD may be controlled but not cured. Even such a successful outcome as Mr. B. reached is rare and must not be expected. A genetic component to susceptibility is suspected as Mr. B.’s nephew also suffers from AOD. Case 2 Mr. W. K. was brought in for psychiatric evaluation following his arrest for stalking, disturbing the peace, and concealment of a deadly weapon. He came to the interview completely shrouded in a black cloak. The police report indicated that these were “gang colors” and that the patient had been seen in the company of several individuals dressed similarly, but it is possibly an attempt to disguise the patient’s invisibility. The patient was extremely hostile and refused to give his name. He identified himself only as “the Witch King” and claimed to be over four thousand years old, adding that his criminal activity was performed at the order of a mysterious entity known as the “Dark Lord.” Witnesses reported that Mr. K. and his companions displayed a variety of supernatural abilities, such as breaking swords from a distance and inducing unspecified fear. He was arrested following reports that an individual matching his description was frightening people at night, inquiring about the whereabouts of a certain hobbit and mumbling something about “murder, murder.” When asked about this, the patient insisted that he was obeying the will of the “Dark Lord,” although he could not provide a valid address or phone number for his employer. Patient was silent when asked whether he had a ring; the police report does not list an item matching description of a ROP among the patient’s possessions. The interviewer observed that Mr. K. had shielded his head with a metal band and gently inquired whether this represented an effort to keep out intrusive thoughts. The patient angrily denied this, saying it was a crown and insisting on his royal status. A moment later, he jumped onto the table and began shouting, “I am the Wizard King! I can do anything!” It was deemed advisable at this point to terminate the interview. Mr. K. is currently under restraint and heavy sedation. Case 3 Mr. S. presented himself for treatment. At first the patient was friendly and affable, expressing admiration of and interest in a plain gold ring worn by the interviewer. Gradually, however, he became increasingly hostile and eventually threatening. Mr. S. suffers from a combination of grandiose and persecutory delusions. He described elaborate plans to take over the world with hordes of orcs and elite servants called “Nazgul.” The patient showed signs of disorganized speech when discussing the Nazgul, saying that they “have unseen sinews knit to their wills by some sort of spell.” The patient claimed to be a god or possibly an angel, and expressed irritation with another angel he said was frustrating his plans and plotting his downfall. He also said he had been killed previously and made himself a new body. A diagnosis of AOD was made when the patient let slip the information that he was seeking a ROP and sought to justify ownership by claiming, improbably, to have made it himself! Mr. S. was extremely resistant to the therapy process and stormed out during the second session when his therapist refused to worship him. Subsequent attempts to contact the patient have been unsuccessful, and a social worker assigned to his case reports that his home in Dol Guldur has been abandoned. Conclusions AOD is a rare but real disorder caused by prolonged exposure to a type of magical object rarely found in Middle-Earth. Care must be taken to distinguish it from the various psychotic disorders, particularly paranoid schizophrenia, which may cause similar delusions in the patient. It is also important to distinguish AOD from two other mental illnesses known to result from magical objects. Annular-Related Obsession Disorder [AROD] is a related but milder disorder caused by proximity to, but not possession of, a ROP. Palantiric Dementia [PD] can be distinguished from AOD and AROD by the lack of paranoid or grandiose delusions and by the elaborate hallucinations associated with the object of fixation, which is not a ring but a “palantir” resembling a crystal ball. AOD is a highly debilitating illness and only two cases are known to have had a positive resolution. In both cases, removal of the ROP was a difficult but vital step in treatment. Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell ###### From: Andrew F Donnell Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:57:43 -0400 Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 6 Message-ID: <3B8E7E97.DD5A8E95@indiana.edu> References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-122-140.dial.indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50150 Katherine Tredwell wrote: This was a very humorous post and I thank you very much for writing it and brightening my day. ###### From: Tiffany Case Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:07:10 -0500 Organization: none Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3B8D9FCD.6BA23FE6@yahoo.com> References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> Reply-To: person53705@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: t-8-180-154.dialup.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.doit.wisc.edu 999137231 19142 144.92.180.154 (30 Aug 2001 02:07:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@doit.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2001 02:07:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50133 Katherine Tredwell wrote: > > > Annular Obsession Disorder [AOD] > > snip ROTFL. Funniest damn thing I've read in a long time. -TC ###### From: mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: 30 Aug 2001 07:41:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.218.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 999182495 24096 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2001 14:41:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2001 14:41:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50290 Katherine Tredwell wrote in message news:<3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu>... > AOD is a highly debilitating illness and only two cases are > known to have had a positive resolution. In both cases, removal of the > ROP was a difficult but vital step in treatment. > > Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell I literally cried with laughter. Thank you so much! You MUST repost that message in its own thread so others can benefit. My favorite passage: > The interviewer observed that Mr. K. had shielded his head with a > metal band and gently inquired whether this represented an effort to > keep out intrusive thoughts. The patient angrily denied this, saying it > was a crown and insisting on his royal status. A moment later, he > jumped onto the table and began shouting, “I am the Wizard King! > I can do anything!” It was deemed advisable at this point to terminate > the interview. > > Mr. K. is currently under restraint and heavy sedation. I'm STILL chuckling. Brilliant. --Mike ###### From: mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: 30 Aug 2001 08:11:31 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C367D.35723E45@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.218.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 999184291 25080 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2001 15:11:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:11:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50276 Katherine Tredwell wrote in message news:<3B8C367D.35723E45@ou.edu>... > > It would be a good time to mention that I was wondering if the whole > > situation that Gollum was in created a sort of simulated schizophrenia > > in him. Obviously, in a world where the moon and the sun (and > > sometimes even stars) WERE in fact sentient powers, this sort of > > speculation fails. > > Not necessarily, which is why I hedged on this one. Even if the sun and > moon are sentient, it could be a delusion for Gollum to think they take > a special interest in *him*. Delusions of reference, I think. Good point. > > b) his "social relations" were pretty miserable from the time he got > > the Ring till his death. I don't think his dealings with Shelob can > > count here. He has no friends, and he trusts no one. > > You're right that Shelob doesn't constitute a social life (doesn't > LOTR say he "worshipped" her?). Gollum doesn't have a social > life. Is it schizophrenia or just paranoia? It's AOD all the way! > One more symptom to add in favor of schizophrenia: > disorganized speech. People who talk to him evidently get quite > fed up with all his mutterings and irrelevancies. This might be one of the reasons why Gollum is my favorite character in LOTR and a favorite for a small (but consistent) minority of readers. Not to harp on an old discussion, but Sam's treatment of the clearly mentally disturbed Gollum seems tantamount to abuse. In another life, Samwise could have been an attendant in a mental institution; perhaps in the 19th century (I'm thinking DRACULA, here, with Gollum playing Renfield). Ok, I'll stop picking on poor Sam. He was just being protective of Master Frodo; Gollum was a deceitful murderer; blah-di-blah-di-blah. > Well, I don't think he has Multiple Personality Disorder, as was > suggested on the "What Would Gollum Do?" thread. Me neither. I'm pretty skeptical of that diagnosis for ANYone, but, then again, I'm no doctor (or even student of psychology/psychiatry). > (That > thread has me wanting WWGD jewellry *so* bad....) I'd like a t-shirt with "WWGD" printed in large, dark gray letters on the front and an image of the Hildebrandt brothers' fish eating Gollum on the back. Underneath the image would be the words "What would Gollum do?" in the same, large print. Considering where I live, I'm pretty sure this would get me stoned. > But I'm inclined more to agree with you, at least that Gollum > is psychotic, if not full-blown schizophrenic. So the safe > diagnosis would be "Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise > Specified." I love DSM's hedging! > > But I have another suggestion. Since it will take some space > I'll save it for another post. And what a post it was! I wonder if O. Sharp would consider publishing it within the hallowed halls of his Tolkien Sarcasm website? Mr. Sharp? You out there? --Mike ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: 30 Aug 2001 13:27:01 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 7 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0108301227.4dc94ddf@posting.google.com> References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.242.228.145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 999203221 30850 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2001 20:27:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2001 20:27:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50327 Katherine Tredwell wrote in message news:<3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu>... PDF! pRETTY dARN fUNNY! Let's not even get into BWD ... ###### From: Skylar Thompson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:07:44 -0500 Organization: STARFLEET Lines: 13 Sender: skylar@starfleet.attglobal.net Message-ID: References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> Reply-To: Skylar Thompson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-X-Sender: In-Reply-To: <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> X-Accept-Primary-Language: en X-Accept-Secondary-Language: es X-Accept-Tertiary-Language: Quenya X-System: Red Hat 6.1 Linux starfleet 2.2.18 i686 X-Mailer: Pine 4.33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.12.155 X-Trace: 30 Aug 2001 09:27:39 GMT, 32.101.12.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news3.prserv.net!rhino_house.attglobal.net!starfleet.attglobal.net!skylar Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50187 On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Katherine Tredwell wrote: [snip cases] Excellent! That was so good it has earned a place in my hard drive. :) -- -- Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net) P(4.2.2) + "Skylar DXLIX" DMPo L:36 DL:2500' A++ R+++ Sp w:Stormbringer A(JLE)*/P*/Z/J64/Ad L/O H+ D+ c f-/f PV+ s TT- d++/d+ P++ M/M+ C- S++ I+/I++ So B+ ac GHB++ SQ++ RQ+ V+ F:JLE F: Possessors strong again ###### From: bryantdouglas@yahoo.com (Bryan Douglas) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: 30 Aug 2001 11:03:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.83.27.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 999194633 28119 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2001 18:03:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2001 18:03:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50311 "M. Perry" wrote in message news:... > By this definition, half or more of Hollywood's celebrities have a > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. > --MP > And. . . you find this hard to believe? ;-) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality Disorder (was Re: What Would Gollum Do?) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:11:50 -0400 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3B90FAA1.49C39886@erols.com> References: <3B87FFCB.64E34276@ou.edu> <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYuPMWh8G/Ptkmzy10CIwAWr4r+/cvxJlj7GOpSIMEsUmkCNZvWdaaw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 2001 15:18:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50350 Katherine Tredwell wrote: > My suggestion: Gollum suffers from an extremely rare condition > called "Annular Obsession Disorder." > Katherine "Doctor" Tredwell Doctor, I just wanted to report that Mrs. FotW (who occasionally lurks here) found this the single most hilarious post ever on RABT, even more so than mine! -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum's Schizophrenia and Sauron's Narcissistic Personality ... Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:06:11 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 23 Message-ID: <11380-3B901863-35@storefull-267.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <3B8C3AA0.40F8604E@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRDx7Gbcc2jEb62aY22FR+bEgQTvwIUVZ/hyA9dDCxAfF21BK81QDOVif8= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50361 Katherine Tredwell wrote: >My suggestion: Gollum suffers from an >extremely rare condition called "Annular >Obsession Disorder." The committee >that worked on the DSM-IV rejected my >proposed diagnostic category, and >subsequent attempts to publish my work >on it have failed. So, in the interests of >science, I present a sample of my notes >to the newsgroups. I'm starting to get the feeling that I am not the only person in the world who uses the DSM-IV as bed-time reading. Bwahahahahahahahahaha! Windy who was disappointed to note that Medical Students' Syndrome was not included....