From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: What Would Gollum Do? Date: 21 Aug 2001 13:47:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 114 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.174.174 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998426855 25271 127.0.0.1 (21 Aug 2001 20:47:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2001 20:47:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49139 One of my favorite passages (and one of the most moving) from LOTR is the following from the TT: "Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond his friends and kin, and the fields and streams of his youth, and old starved pitiable little thing." It was Sam who dismissed this moment of possible repentance "beyond recall" with an insult and an accusation, and, upon rereading LOTR, I often resent Sam for his (I think) overly cruel treatment of Smeagol/Gollum. I have often mused that things might have been much different had Sam behaved differently towards him. But I had no idea that JRRT himself had mused upon a similar scenario! You see, I was browsing around Google Groups earlier today when I found an extremely thought provoking citation by O. Sharp (posted in September of '99). Namely, Sharp's message cited one of Tolkien's letters, specifically regarding Gollum and the possibility of his repentance: _Letters_, number 246: "[If Sam had not mistrusted and suspected Gollum, at _TT_ pp. 323-5 hardback,] what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love [for Frodo, due to Frodo's kindness and pity] on one side and the Ring [on the other]. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have _voluntarily_ cast himself into the fiery abyss. "I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together - and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo." Wow. I would *love* to read that version of TT/RotK (centered in part around Gollum's struggle with the Ring and "his new love" for Frodo). I'm not sure whether it would be *superior* to the original, but it would certainly be thought provoking in contrast to it. I wonder specifically what would have been different had Gollum reformed: how the hobbits would enter into Mordor; how much more difficult (or easy) their trip to Mt. Doom would have been, etc? Had it been evident that Gollum intentionally destroyed himself and the Ring, would he have been honored by Aragorn & Co? On a side note, I very much like Samwise with the exception of his abusiveness towards Gollum, which ticks me off every time I read LOTR. I know it can be argued that Sam was simply being protective of his master and that Gollum was a dangerous and deceitful creature that deserved harsh treatment, but the viciousness of Sam's threats and insults toward Gollum bely a basic lack of empathy and general kindness in him. It's too bad that he wasn't eavesdropping well when Gandalf told Frodo those fateful and powerful words: "‘I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least.'" Personally, I think that, aside from feeling protective of Frodo and suspicious of Gollum, plain old jealousy had something to do with the vehemence of Sam's feelings. (And, yes, I realize that Sam spared Gollum's life at least once, but that still doesn't change the fact that he treated him cruelly). I always felt that Frodo and Gollum understood each other on a level that Sam, not yet the bearer even for a little while of the Ring, could never comprehend. And, even though Sam was as good as they come, he hated Gollum a little more than he already did for the rapport that was developing between Frodo and Gollum and for the pity his master often showed the poor wretch. Thoughts? Thanks, O: (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=gollum+repentance&hl=en&group=rec.arts.books.tolkien&safe=off&rnum=4&selm=7t0fp0%241kn%40dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com) --Mike ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: 22 Aug 2001 09:57:30 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 45 Message-ID: <9lvvma$huq$1@readme.uio.no> References: Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (OSF1) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48958 On 21 Aug 2001 13:47:34 -0700, Michael Jacobson wrote: >Wow. I would *love* to read that version of TT/RotK (centered in part >around Gollum's struggle with the Ring and "his new love" for Frodo). >I'm not sure whether it would be *superior* to the original, but it >would certainly be thought provoking in contrast to it. > >I wonder specifically what would have been different had Gollum >reformed: how the hobbits would enter into Mordor; how much more >difficult (or easy) their trip to Mt. Doom would have been, etc? Had >it been evident that Gollum intentionally destroyed himself and the >Ring, would he have been honored by Aragorn & Co? Funnily enough I've been toying with the idea of writing a "What If?" version of the "Mount Doom" chapter myself, possibly for submission to Amon Hen. I have a nice ending, but I just can't work out how the hell to get them all into Mordor without getting caught. ... For a moment Gollum stood at the edge, his hand held high, holding the Ring, a finger still thrust within it. "My Preciousss!", he wailed, "my Preciouss Master!" He took one step backwards, and was gone. **** "I'm glad you are here with me Sam, at the end of all things", said Frodo. Sam held on tightly to his master as the ash fell about them. At last exhaustion took him and he knew no more. Far away, on the other side of the Mountains of Shadow, the army of the Lords of the West was camped in Northern Ithilien. More distant still, across the endless leagues of Wilderland, the great Eagles of the Misty Mountains slept restlessly in their eyries. It was the 23rd of March. ... -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: Nicolas Masson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:04:54 +0200 Organization: Club-Internet (France) Lines: 57 Message-ID: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: nas8-163.wln.club-internet.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: front1.grolier.fr 998477688 8705 213.44.62.163 (22 Aug 2001 10:54:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:54:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: fr Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newscore.gigabell.net!isdnet!nerim.net!grolier!club-internet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48995 Michael Jacobson a écrit : > > [Snip] > > Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have > stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the > actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would > then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have > _voluntarily_ cast himself into the fiery abyss. > "I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love > would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He > would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized > that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or > stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it > and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together - and in > a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest > service to Frodo." > > Wow. I would *love* to read that version of TT/RotK That is the version I have read ! In my interpretation of the final scene on Mt Doom, I have always thought that Gollum's falling into the fire was not an accident. Sam's hard words did not cure Gollum/Smeagol's schizophrenia for ever. On Mt Doom, Gollum wanted to hurt Frodo and to take the Ring for himself but Smeagol "realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together". Moreover, in a previous chapter Smeagol had sworn on the Precious "Not to let Him [Sauron] have It [the Ring]". > Had it been evident that Gollum intentionally destroyed himself > and the Ring, would he have been honored by Aragorn & Co? (In my interpretation) The reason why Smeagol's sacrifice was not acknowledged is that the only witness of it was Sam. Sam had never really understood what was going on in Gollum/Smeagol's mind and his relationships with Frodo and the Ring. Just as he misinterpreted Smeagol touching Frodo on the stairs of Cirith Ungol, he misinterpreted Smeagol's last moments. So the story we read in LoTR is Sam biased retelling of the real events. (Going further in this interpretation) Frodo, and perhaps Gandalf, may have understood what really went through Gollum/Smeagol's mind in the last moments. Frodo would not speak about it, because he was too ashamed of his own behaviour on Mt Doom, and anyway his thoughts were all but clear at the crucial moment. And Gandalf would not speak either, because he respected Frodo's silence and Sam's good faith. Perhaps his thoughts were political too, Gollum was not a very suitable hero to be the starting point of the fourth Age. > Thoughts? Here you are. -- Nicolas Masson ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: 22 Aug 2001 07:59:50 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.216.43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998492391 28569 127.0.0.1 (22 Aug 2001 14:59:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2001 14:59:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49145 Nicolas Masson wrote in message news:<3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr>... > That is the version I have read ! I've always thought only imaginatively of Gollum intentionally sacrificing himself. The following passage, as written, leaves no doubt of Gollum's accidental fall: "'Precious, precious, precious' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell." This leaves little to interpretation. *However*, I love your justification: namely, > > (In my interpretation) The reason why Smeagol's sacrifice was not > acknowledged is that the only witness of it was Sam. Sam had never > really understood what was going on in Gollum/Smeagol's mind and his > relationships with Frodo and the Ring. Just as he misinterpreted Smeagol > touching Frodo on the stairs of Cirith Ungol, he misinterpreted > Smeagol's last moments. So the story we read in LoTR is Sam biased > retelling of the real events. I have never thought of this possibility before, though it really works. Our translated copy of the Red Book could be, of course, somewhat biased (consciously or unconsciously) on the side of the heroes, particularly in scenes in which there is no other (lucid) witness, as we find in Gollum's final moments at Mt. Doom. Usually this kind of line of reasoning gets pretty ridiculous (i.e. Gandalf is the real villain of LOTR and Sauron simply misunderstood), but the subtlety of your interpretation makes it plausible. If Gollum actually DID (hypothetically) commit suicide, though, I think it has nothing to do with any redemption on his part and more to do with the fact that he didn't want ANYone else to have the Ring, least of all Sauron. Tolkien has mentioned that had Frodo not been attacked by Gollum, he would have likely cast HIMSELF into the fire to keep Sauron from getting it once he realized his plight. This "sacrifice," like Gollum's hypothetical "sacrifice," would not be accomplished out of love or duty, but out of mad despair at a hopeless paradox. Either Frodo or Gollum would know in the last moments before Sauron showed up that there was no WAY they would be able to keep the Ring from Sauron, but either one would be unable to throw away, much less destroy, the Ring. So the only option: self-annihilation. Tolkien proposes that had Gollum actually *repented* prior to his betrayal of the hobbits at Cirith Ungol, he might have cast himself into the fire for different reasons: love of Frodo--the single person that showed him real kindness and understanding. _Letters_, number 246: "[Gollum] would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together - and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo." The only important difference between YOUR version of LOTR and the "Gollum Repents" version that JRRT proposes is that just before Gollum snuffs it, "...he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo." It's the difference between an act of hopelessness inspired by greed and an act of ultimate sacrifice "in the name of love," as the cliche' goes. (On a side note, I wonder if Gandalf knew that ultimately Frodo [or SOMEbody] would be forced to make this kind of sacrifice? I myself think he trusted on intuition and tried not to think about it, but Gandalf really DID have allot of time to consider what would happen if Frodo and/or Sam arrived at Mt. Doom.) Thanks again, Nicolas, for your inspirational perspective. --Mike ###### From: Nicolas Masson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:50:07 +0200 Organization: Club-Internet (France) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: nas6-134.mci.club-internet.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: front3.grolier.fr 998501999 4723 213.44.80.134 (22 Aug 2001 17:39:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2001 17:39:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: fr Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!grolier!club-internet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48994 Michael Jacobson a écrit : > > If Gollum actually DID (hypothetically) commit suicide, though, I > think it has nothing to do with any redemption on his part and more to > do with the fact that he didn't want ANYone else to have the Ring, > least of all Sauron. > Gollum's hypothetical "sacrifice," would not be > accomplished out of love or duty, but out of mad despair at a hopeless > paradox. What is really interesting with Gollum/Smeagol is his schizophrenia. When doing a thing he could possibly have two different and even contradicting ideas in his mind. That is why I think that an interpretation of Gollum/Smeagol's behaviour that include the words 'mad' and 'paradox' certainly fits better with the character than a plain and straight one. The two personalities 'Gollum' and 'Smeagol', were certainly hating one another. What if Gollum/Smeagol's fall was neither an accident, nor a suicide, nor a sacrifice, but one personality murdering the other ? I do not know anything about psychatry in general, nor about schizophrenia and suicidal behaviours in particular. But even if the 'sacrifice not to let him have it' interpretation is my favourite, I also think the far-fetched 'alter ego murder' theory deserves consideration. -- Nicolas Masson ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: 22 Aug 2001 11:42:34 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9m0ueq01si8@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-298.newsdawg.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49241 In article <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr>, Nicolas says... > >The two personalities 'Gollum' and 'Smeagol', were certainly hating one >another. What if Gollum/Smeagol's fall was neither an accident, nor a >suicide, nor a sacrifice, but one personality murdering the other ? [snip] I'm ambivalent about such a theory...perhaps like Gollum himself.. I do feel that as Gollum fell toward the fires of Mount Doom, he was feeling a euphoria. There's a wonderful scene in one of the Alien movies where the Ripley clone kills herself by jumping into a reactor, I think, and the last thing we see is the Alien emerging from within her. I think of Gollum like that: the essence of the Dark Lord leaving him as he fell, and in his last moment of life, he was free at last. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:23:52 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.50 X-Server-Date: 22 Aug 2001 20:21:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49395 Michael Jacobson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"‘I have not muc Please don't post HTML. I tried e-mailing you privately, but your address is bogus. If you want to use a bogus address, such is your right. But in that case please have the courtesy to make it _look_ bogus so people don't waste time trying to communicate with you. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com/ "That was a stupid lie, easy to expose, not worthy of you." George Sanders as "Addison Dewitt" in /All About Eve/ (1950) ###### From: "John C" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:13:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.56.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@nycap.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 998514816 24.161.56.25 (Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:13:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:13:36 EDT Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Albany NY Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49354 Nicolas Masson said: > What is really interesting with Gollum/Smeagol is his schizophrenia. I hate to be a technical pain in the arse, but there's a difference between schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, which's what I always came away thinking he suffered from. With multiple personalities you're aware of what's going on around you (or at least one of the personalities in you is), but with schizophrenia, you've got no idea what's going on around you most of the time. Then again I only took psychology for a semester last year, and it's been a while since I actually read up on it, so I've probably got something wrong in there. -John C. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:49:39 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998520570 13709 192.168.30.2 (22 Aug 2001 22:49:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2001 22:49:30 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!203.50.2.79!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49348 In article <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, John C says... > > Nicolas Masson said: > > > What is really interesting with Gollum/Smeagol is his schizophrenia. > > I hate to be a technical pain in the arse, but there's a difference between > schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, which's what I always came > away thinking he suffered from. With multiple personalities you're aware of > what's going on around you (or at least one of the personalities in you is), > but with schizophrenia, you've got no idea what's going on around you most > of the time. > > Then again I only took psychology for a semester last year, and it's been a > while since I actually read up on it, so I've probably got something wrong > in there. Damn, you beat me to it. Oh well, at least you're qualified. I was going to use a recent debate in one of our papers as my basis for knowledge. -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: "If you're going to start reading my novel, please stop touching yourself like that." ###### From: mike_jacobson77@hotmail.com (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: 23 Aug 2001 06:16:16 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.148.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998572576 8109 127.0.0.1 (23 Aug 2001 13:16:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 2001 13:16:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49362 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Michael Jacobson wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >"‘I have not muc > > Please don't post HTML. Sorry about that bit of HTML code. As I explained in my private message to you, I copied and pasted that quote from a webpage, so the open apostrophe came out that way. Technically, of course, I posted my message as plain text. If I hadn't, it would be full of tags and other code garbage. I'll be more careful with my cutting and pasting in the future. > > I tried e-mailing you privately, but your address is bogus. If you > want to use a bogus address, such is your right. But in that case > please have the courtesy to make it _look_ bogus so people don't > waste time trying to communicate with you. Sorry you were inconvenienced. As I let you know privately, my michael.jacobson@usa.net was finally cancelled this past week since the provider decided to charge its email customers at last. I've had that email address for the past three years, so it's hardly "bogus." But thanks for giving me a heads up, nonetheless. --Mike ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:22:06 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.bf X-Server-Date: 23 Aug 2001 22:18:51 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49555 John C wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Nicolas Masson said: > >> What is really interesting with Gollum/Smeagol is his schizophrenia. > >I hate to be a technical pain in the arse, but there's a difference between >schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, which's what I always came >away thinking he suffered from. With multiple personalities you're aware of >what's going on around you (or at least one of the personalities in you is), >but with schizophrenia, you've got no idea what's going on around you most >of the time. I always wondered how schizophrenia came to mean "split personality" in popular parlance. (That's kind of off topic, so if anyone knows, please e-mail me.) As for Gollum, do you really think he had multiple personality disorder? Maybe I'm naive (and I'm not a mental-health professional anyway), but I just through he was having trouble making up his mind. Can you say a bit more about how you drew that conclusion? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:10:54 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <523bot8u7b56f2htf8mj2anap6bvm762vo@4ax.com> References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-593.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49535 On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:22:06 -0400, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: |As for Gollum, do you really think he had multiple personality |disorder? Maybe I'm naive (and I'm not a mental-health professional |anyway), but I just through he was having trouble making up his |mind. Can you say a bit more about how you drew that conclusion? I don't think he had a multiple personality in the clinical sense. To the degree, we all have multiple personalities, perhaps more correctly, multiple facets to our personality, Gollum qualifies. To me he presents as an addictive, compulsive personality. When he was under the sway of the ring, like any true compulsive, nothing else mattered. I also believe the ring's dominance over his life, his thoughts, and activities was not a constant. It flucutuated. There were times, as with any compulsion, when he could *almost* put it aside. Just not completely, or for good. The appearance of multiple personality derives from his different conduct in certain situations, depending on how much he was under the spell of the ring at any given moment. ###### From: "Leo Fellmann" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <9m0ueq01si8@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Lines: 29 Organization: Orc Hordes X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:26:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.27.37.183 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net X-Trace: nnrp3.proxad.net 998688408 212.27.37.183 (Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:26:48 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:26:48 CEST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!grolier!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!nnrp3.proxad.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49492 "Boris Badenov" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:9m0ueq01si8@drn.newsguy.com... > In article <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr>, Nicolas says... > > > > >The two personalities 'Gollum' and 'Smeagol', were certainly hating one > >another. What if Gollum/Smeagol's fall was neither an accident, nor a > >suicide, nor a sacrifice, but one personality murdering the other ? > > [snip] > > I'm ambivalent about such a theory...perhaps like Gollum himself.. I do feel > that as Gollum fell toward the fires of Mount Doom, he was feeling a euphoria. > > There's a wonderful scene in one of the Alien movies where the Ripley clone > kills herself by jumping into a reactor, I think, and the last thing we see is > the Alien emerging from within her. It was Alien 3 and she jumped into molten metal of some sort. Sorry about that, I should be cultured enough not to know that :) ( Oh, and it wasn't a clone -the clone is in alien 4, Sorry. I'll shut up now. ) ###### From: "la lutinerie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 04:43:31 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - ReInventing The UseNet Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:51:48 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.30.0.50!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49554 The "split" is with reality and body awareness. -- -- Lutin ET IN ARCADIA EGO ###### From: "giles.eastwood" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:32:33 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.105.147.109 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 998746798 213.105.147.109 (Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:39:58 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:39:58 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49584 > >Nicolas Masson said: > > > >> What is really interesting with Gollum/Smeagol is his schizophrenia. > > > >I hate to be a technical pain in the arse, but there's a difference between > >schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, which's what I always came > >away thinking he suffered from. With multiple personalities you're aware of > >what's going on around you (or at least one of the personalities in you is), > >but with schizophrenia, you've got no idea what's going on around you most > >of the time. > > I always wondered how schizophrenia came to mean "split personality" > in popular parlance. (That's kind of off topic, so if anyone knows, > please e-mail me.) > > As for Gollum, do you really think he had multiple personality > disorder? Maybe I'm naive (and I'm not a mental-health professional > anyway), but I just through he was having trouble making up his > mind. Can you say a bit more about how you drew that conclusion? > > -- > Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA Hello everyone - I was just mucking about on some Tolkiem web sites and found that I had access to loads of Tolkien related E mails. So as not to waste an interesting opportunity, I thought I would reply to one. My opinion on the Gollum / mental health question, for what it's worth, is this. Smeagol never "took on " another personality. The ring made him distrustful and dishonest but he was still Smeagol. Other people called him Gollum because of the noises he made. He did not call himself Gollum. For me this would rule out both schizophrenia and split personality. I think that a persecution complex ( I think this would be called psychosis but I'm no authority on this subject) wouls seem to be nearer the mark. We really need a real Psychiatrist / Tolien fan to shed some light. Anyone wanting to E mail me should when ever they want at giles.eastwood@ntlwold.com and I live in Stafford, UK. See you all soon ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9lvvma$huq$1@readme.uio.no> Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:00:13 -0400 Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.206 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.206 Message-ID: <3b8b166c_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Trace: 27 Aug 2001 22:56:28 -0500, 64.24.44.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@megapop.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!feed-out.newsfeeds.com!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.onecall.net!chcgil2-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.starnetinc.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49854 "Colin Rosenthal" wrote in message > Far away, on the other side of the Mountains of Shadow, the army > of the Lords of the West was camped in Northern Ithilien. > More distant still, across the endless leagues of Wilderland, the > great Eagles of the Misty Mountains slept restlessly in their eyries. > It was the 23rd of March. Well I see the obstacle RIGHT THERE. It couldn't be the 23rd of March because the New Age HAD to begin on the 25th, that being the date of the Annunciation and Incarnation, which of course haven't happened yet.... Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### From: "Jasper." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3B8391D6.B64AF1A0@club-internet.fr> <3B83F0CF.601158BA@club-internet.fr> <4gVg7.333768$EF2.41816021@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com> Subject: Re: What Would Gollum Do? Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:10:48 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.120.223.49 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.nl X-Trace: zwoll1.home.nl 1002568310 217.120.223.49 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:11:50 MEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:11:50 MEST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!zwoll1.home.nl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:54158 Stan Brown schreef in berichtnieuws MPG.15ef4c1ddde3430098c7a7@news.mindspring.com... > John C wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Nicolas Masson said: > > > >> What is really interesting with Gollum/Smeagol is his schizophrenia. > > > >I hate to be a technical pain in the arse, but there's a difference between > >schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, which's what I always came > >away thinking he suffered from. With multiple personalities you're aware of > >what's going on around you (or at least one of the personalities in you is), > >but with schizophrenia, you've got no idea what's going on around you most > >of the time. > > I always wondered how schizophrenia came to mean "split personality" > in popular parlance. (That's kind of off topic, so if anyone knows, > please e-mail me.) > > As for Gollum, do you really think he had multiple personality > disorder? Maybe I'm naive (and I'm not a mental-health professional > anyway), but I just through he was having trouble making up his > mind. Can you say a bit more about how you drew that conclusion? > > -- I think Gollum never had a split personality or something like that. Of course, he had been trough a long and hard path, and had evolved from a "Nice, peaceful" hobbit to a "Slimy creature, as dark as darkness". Though Tolkien said in one of his letters that Smeagol AND Deagol were two miserable creatures, even before the ring came to play a part in Gollums "fall". That means that gollum was susceptible to the influence of the ring, much more then BIlbo and Frodo were, though they were Hobbits as well. But Smeagol was indeed drawn in two between his love for Frodo, and his love for the Ring, though, at the end he made a choice for both of them (he probably thought that he would free frodo from a heavy burden, and, in this way satisfy his both "sides"of character). But he didn't have a spli personality... J. "Fly,you fools"