From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:15:42 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.218.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997805743 16142 127.0.0.1 (14 Aug 2001 16:15:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 2001 16:15:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47442 Hypothetically, if Morgoth replaced Sauron in the Dark Tower from, say, the beginning of the TT through to the end of RotK, how would his tactics have differed from Sauron's? Who would have prevailed, how, and why? Obviously, Morgoth wouldn't have a need for the One Ring (or would he?), but how would he deal with Gandalf, Aragorn, the forces of Minas Tirith, Saruman, etc? Bear in mind that this would be the post-Fingolfin wounded Morgoth we're talking about, so he couldn't (or wouldn't) personally visit the battlefield. Also, Morgoth would have no Balrogs or dragons (etc.) at his disposal (nor especially Sauron himself); he would only have the forces Sauron had available at the time of the TT. Basically, I'm most interested in reading about the specific differences in his tactics as opposed to Sauron's. --- In my mind, Morgoth was MUCH more insidious and wily than Sauron ever was (at least in the Third Age). Morgoth was far superior to Sauron in terms of espionage and using lies to his advantage. In fact, I can't think of an instance in which Morgoth won a hands-down, major victory against the Children of Ilúvatar without dividing and conquering through deceit and treachery. He was, in fact, so good at it that the War of Wrath became necessary. In any case, I have my own ideas of what Morgoth might do in Sauron's place in LOTR, but I'm primarily interested in what all of you think. --Mike ###### From: "Matthew Harris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 6 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:46:49 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - ReInventing The UseNet Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:49:09 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47493 Don't have time for a serious answer to your question right now...so I will answer by saying that the only way that the company could have won is if Arwen went to the Barad-Dur and sang a song to put Morgoth to sleep while Aragorn ditched the ring in the cracks of Doom. ###### From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 14 Aug 2001 16:57:58 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 32 Sender: stephen Message-ID: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: nw81.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47110 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Michael Jacobson wrote: : Hypothetically, if Morgoth replaced Sauron in the Dark Tower from, : say, the beginning of the TT through to the end of RotK, how would his : tactics have differed from Sauron's? Who would have prevailed, how, : and why? : Obviously, Morgoth wouldn't have a need for the One Ring (or would : he?), but how would he deal with Gandalf, Aragorn, the forces of Minas : Tirith, Saruman, etc? Bear in mind that this would be the : post-Fingolfin wounded Morgoth we're talking about, so he couldn't (or : wouldn't) personally visit the battlefield. Also, Morgoth would have : no Balrogs or dragons (etc.) at his disposal (nor especially Sauron : himself); he would only have the forces Sauron had available at the : time of the TT. : Basically, I'm most interested in reading about the specific : differences in his tactics as opposed to Sauron's. What would it matter? The only way the good guys were able to win was because of the Ring. Sauron would have crushed the West in a pure military campaign. Morgoth would have been able to do the same. The destruction of the Ring would not have affected Morgoth, so he and his armies would continue to fight, and they would have triumphed. According to Tolkien, Morgoth was utlimately a nihilist who wanted to destroy everything, including his own creatures eventually, and had little attention for details, whereas Sauron liked discipline. Reading between the lines, it is easy to conclude that Sauron was the better tactician. Stephen ###### Lines: 89 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Aug 2001 18:10:28 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47239 Michael Jacobson wrote: >Hypothetically, if Morgoth replaced Sauron in the Dark Tower from, >say, the beginning of the TT through to the end of RotK, how would his >tactics have differed from Sauron's? Who would have prevailed, how, >and why? >In my mind, Morgoth was MUCH more insidious and wily than Sauron ever >was (at least in the Third Age). Morgoth was far superior to Sauron >in terms of espionage and using lies to his advantage. In fact, I >can't think of an instance in which Morgoth won a hands-down, major >victory against the Children of Ilúvatar without dividing and >conquering through deceit and treachery. He was, in fact, so good at >it that the War of Wrath became necessary. > >In any case, I have my own ideas of what Morgoth might do in Sauron's >place in LOTR, but I'm primarily interested in what all of you think. This is some interesting speculation; I think that a Morgoth-run offensive would have been more elaborate and interesting than Sauron's stupid frontal assult on Minas Tirith. To begin with, Morgoth might never have actively forced Saruman to join him; he would have just planted hostility in Saruman's mind (or in Gandalf's), leading to an active war between Saruman/Dunland and Gandalf/Rohan, which would have been an easy task. It happened anyways. Morgoth would also have tried to exploit tensions elsewhere. This might be his most important strategy: get the Western nations to battle each other. He could divide even Elves against each other, in the First Age, when they really should have known better; in the Third Age, he could have had every culture or race battling all the others. The Shire would have become provincial, and tried to keep outsiders (especially Elves) out - there is only a small difference between "minding one's business" and xenophobia. The dwarves' trade would thus have been choked, possibly leading to open war between dwarves and hobbits. Morgoth would have made the destruction of the Rangers a high priority. Wolfriders from the Misty Mountains and Easterling patrols could have infiltrated Eriador with little trouble, and might have tried to draw out the Rangers by raiding settlements in the area. The Rohirrim and Dunlendings would almost certainly not have had peace after Saruman's defeat. If Theoden had any soldiers to spare for Gondor, they might have had to find their way across the mountains themselves - the Woses would probably have been reluctant to make themselves Morgoth's enemies, simply because he had a very good chance of winning the war. Tolkien omitted any details about Gondor's subject peoples, but the variety of racial stocks of the vassal armies that came to defend Minas Tirith is clear evidence that they existed. Knowing Morgoth, they would not have been content with being subjects for long. The Lonely Mountain and Laketown would still have been attacked, but sooner and with more forces - Morgoth would not have worried about coordination so much as success. In short, Gondor would have lost all its dei ex machina. No charge of Rohirrim when the city was about to fall, no fleet from the Corsairs (Aragorn might have been killed by wolfriders, remember?), no auxiliaries, but instead a need to send soldiers to supress rebellions, and especially, no destruction of the Ring. Even if the Westerners had made it to the edge of Mordor, they would have been annihilated. In other words, Morgoth could probably have won the War of the Whatever (Ring no longer fits if there isn't a Ring to destroy) in less time than it took Sauron to lose it, simply because Morgoth was shrewd in managing his wars while Sauron was the soon-to-be-archetypal Dark Lord sitting in his tower sending vast armies against a unified world. Remember, Morgoth nearly won against the whole of the Noldor, commanded by generals like Fingolfin and Maedhros. He could have beaten Aragorn, Theoden, et al. in his sleep. ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Aug 2001 18:12:01 GMT References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Message-ID: <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47237 stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote: >According to Tolkien, Morgoth was utlimately a nihilist who wanted >to destroy everything, including his own creatures eventually, and >had little attention for details, whereas Sauron liked discipline. >Reading between the lines, it is easy to conclude that Sauron was the >better tactician. But looking at their war records, Morgoth was better. Read the descriptions of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (or the BoLT Fall of Gondolin) and the Siege of Minas Tirith for examples of what I mean. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> Organization: Europa From: ronc@pacifier.com (Ron Christian) NNTP-Posting-Host: thetics.europa.com Message-ID: <3b797149$1_1@news.nwlink.com> Date: 14 Aug 2001 11:43:21 -0700 X-Trace: 14 Aug 2001 11:43:21 -0700, thetics.europa.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!news.nwlink.com!ronc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47601 In article <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com>, Ottoyuhr wrote: >In other words, Morgoth could probably have won >the War of the Whatever (Ring no longer fits if >there isn't a Ring to destroy) in less time than it took >Sauron to lose it, simply because Morgoth was >shrewd in managing his wars while Sauron was >the soon-to-be-archetypal Dark Lord sitting in >his tower sending vast armies against a unified >world. Remember, Morgoth nearly won against >the whole of the Noldor, commanded by generals >like Fingolfin and Maedhros. He could have beaten >Aragorn, Theoden, et al. in his sleep. I think you're right on target. All through LotR you get impressions that all sides in the war are just remnents of far greater forces, from far greater times. Measured against Morgoth's time, both Sauron's and Aragorn's forces are trailer trash wandering around throwing stuff at each other. Ron -- [www.europa.com/~ronc] "I think he's injured." "He said 'not' at the end of a sentence. He deserves to be injured." ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:17:38 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9lc12v$6k2$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p009.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 997820319 6786 212.205.253.9 (14 Aug 2001 20:18:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:18:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.238.2.15!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47626 Ottoyuhr wrote in message news:20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com... > stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote: > > > > >According to Tolkien, Morgoth was utlimately a nihilist who wanted > >to destroy everything, including his own creatures eventually, and > >had little attention for details, whereas Sauron liked discipline. > >Reading between the lines, it is easy to conclude that Sauron was the > >better tactician. > > But looking at their war records, Morgoth was better. Read the > descriptions of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (or the BoLT Fall > of Gondolin) and the Siege of Minas Tirith for examples of what > I mean. Morgoth had in his service Sauron throughout all that time. Morgoth-with-Sauron is definitely superior to Sauron alone... But that's obvious I think... Aris Katsaris ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 14 Aug 2001 14:21:03 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 94 Message-ID: References: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.123.251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997824064 27486 127.0.0.1 (14 Aug 2001 21:21:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 2001 21:21:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47862 ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) wrote in message news:<20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com>... > This is some interesting speculation; I think that a Morgoth-run > offensive would have been more elaborate and interesting than > Sauron's stupid frontal assult on Minas Tirith. Thank you for the fascinating reply! That's just the sort of discussion/speculation I was looking for! Sauron simply did not have the sly finesse that his master did. Time and again in TS the reader witnesses Morgoth's spies infiltrating even the courts of the great Noldor lords. Time and again, Morgoth turned his enemies against each other. Orcs are themselves an extreme example of Morgoth's methods. All of his servants were attained through perversion and/or intimidation of the unstained. Sauron was too obsessed with getting his Ring back to be this wily. We know Sauron COULD play this game (primarily before and just after forging the One Ring): making nice with the Numenoreans, for instance, with calamitous effect. Sauron should have studied his past tactics and the tactics of his master more thoroughly. Instead, his own treachery (the Ring) was his undoing. Whereas Morgoth was the Master of sowing treachery in everyone and everything around him (always to devastating effect), so much so that the Children just didn't have a chance against him and the Valar had to intercede. > He could divide even Elves against each > other, in the First Age, when they really should have known better; > in the Third Age, he could have had every culture or race battling > all the others. Yep. Divide & Conquer. One could say that Sauron used Saruman in this way, but he certainly could have exploited it on a larger scale (i.e. inciting war between dwarves and elves and men all over ME). I'm certain Morgoth could have caused the ruin of Minas Tirith from within without much of an army set against it. Eru knows what he could do to Denethor, Saruman and/or Aragorn with Sauron's palantir. A terrible thought: Aragorn decides to reveal himself to Sauron and, instead, Morgoth's on the other side of the palantir ! > The Rohirrim and Dunlendings would almost certainly not > have had peace after Saruman's defeat. If Theoden had > any soldiers to spare for Gondor, they might have had to > find their way across the mountains themselves - the > Woses would probably have been reluctant to make > themselves Morgoth's enemies, simply because he > had a very good chance of winning the war. It's actually more interesting to think of what might have happened had Morgoth replaced Sauron just AFTER TT rather than just before it. RETURN OF THE KING might take on a different meaning. Then again, with Saruman and his forces out of the way, it would be more difficult for Morgoth to quickly prevail. And, again, there's the Gandalf factor. > > Tolkien omitted any details about Gondor's subject > peoples, but the variety of racial stocks of the vassal > armies that came to defend Minas Tirith is clear > evidence that they existed. Knowing Morgoth, they > would not have been content with being subjects for > long. Absolutely. ME in the Third Age was an inconsolidated mess that would have made Morgoth dance with glee. Imagine how disappointed he would be with Sauron for not taking over a long time ago. OTOH, let's not forget the mobilizing and soothing effect Gandalf the White had everywhere he went. That would be one thorn in Morgoth's side for sure. How do you think he would attempt to deal with him? > In other words, Morgoth could probably have won > the War of the Whatever (Ring no longer fits if > there isn't a Ring to destroy) in less time than it took > Sauron to lose it, simply because Morgoth was > shrewd in managing his wars while Sauron was > the soon-to-be-archetypal Dark Lord sitting in > his tower sending vast armies against a unified > world. Remember, Morgoth nearly won against > the whole of the Noldor, commanded by generals > like Fingolfin and Maedhros. He could have beaten > Aragorn, Theoden, et al. in his sleep. I *sort* of agree with you here, though I still think that Gandalf would be a pain for Morgoth. What would Gandalf have recommended if Morgoth was suddenly in charge in Mordor? Mass suicide comes to mind (;-)), but Gandalf was not one to surrender in the face of despair. As Steward of Middle Earth, he would be compelled to preserve whatever could still be saved. How would he go about it? ###### From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 14 Aug 2001 22:28:02 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 41 Sender: stephen Message-ID: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.netins.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47679 Ottoyuhr wrote: : stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote: : :>According to Tolkien, Morgoth was utlimately a nihilist who wanted :>to destroy everything, including his own creatures eventually, and :>had little attention for details, whereas Sauron liked discipline. :>Reading between the lines, it is easy to conclude that Sauron was the :>better tactician. : But looking at their war records, Morgoth was better. Read the : descriptions of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (or the BoLT Fall : of Gondolin) and the Siege of Minas Tirith for examples of what : I mean. No, I do not see examples of what you mean. Morgoth had far more powerful armies than Sauron did. Morgoth had dragons and balrogs and demonic spirits. Sauron had an army composed mainly of orcs and men, some trolls, elephants and 9 Ringwraiths. Do you really believe that Morgoth could have conquered Gondolin with the army Sauron had? Also, Sauron was Morgoth's servant, and had "In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part" (The Valequenta) so therefore part of the credit for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and the Fall of Gondolin go to Sauron. Furthermore, from the "Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed" "Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he [Sauron] remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth. ..... He [Sauron] was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious hast of his malice." Other texts discussing Morgoth and Sauron strongly suggest that Sauron was the better tactician. Stephen ###### From: "Austin Pevler" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:27:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.24.236.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.columbus.rr.com 997831653 65.24.236.99 (Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:27:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:27:33 EDT Organization: Road Runner Columbus Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!typhoon.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47871 Just think if he had taken over around the hobbit. Smaug, the balrog of Moria and what was left of the other Dragons of the Grey Mountains would have been available. Austin Pevler Michael Jacobson wrote in message news:cec308ac.0108140815.77d92ba9@posting.google.com... > Hypothetically, if Morgoth replaced Sauron in the Dark Tower from, > say, the beginning of the TT through to the end of RotK, how would his > tactics have differed from Sauron's? Who would have prevailed, how, > and why? > > Obviously, Morgoth wouldn't have a need for the One Ring (or would > he?), but how would he deal with Gandalf, Aragorn, the forces of Minas > Tirith, Saruman, etc? Bear in mind that this would be the > post-Fingolfin wounded Morgoth we're talking about, so he couldn't (or > wouldn't) personally visit the battlefield. Also, Morgoth would have > no Balrogs or dragons (etc.) at his disposal (nor especially Sauron > himself); he would only have the forces Sauron had available at the > time of the TT. > > Basically, I'm most interested in reading about the specific > differences in his tactics as opposed to Sauron's. > > --- > > In my mind, Morgoth was MUCH more insidious and wily than Sauron ever > was (at least in the Third Age). Morgoth was far superior to Sauron > in terms of espionage and using lies to his advantage. In fact, I > can't think of an instance in which Morgoth won a hands-down, major > victory against the Children of Ilúvatar without dividing and > conquering through deceit and treachery. He was, in fact, so good at > it that the War of Wrath became necessary. > > In any case, I have my own ideas of what Morgoth might do in Sauron's > place in LOTR, but I'm primarily interested in what all of you think. > > --Mike ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:58:11 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.81 X-Server-Date: 15 Aug 2001 11:55:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47867 Michael Jacobson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Time >and again in TS the reader witnesses Morgoth's spies infiltrating even >the courts of the great Noldor lords. I'm trying to remember _any_ occasion other than Maeglin in Gondolin. And that wasn't a spy sent by Morgoth, but someone who was already part of the inner circle and was corrupted by Morgoth. Could you remind us of say three examples to back up that "time and again"? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Markus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:36:58 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 8 Message-ID: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 997878917 07 13552 3VBsSwCbSZAgmT 010815 12:35:17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320085212707-0001@t-dialin.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47668 If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the ring after he knew they had it, he would have sat down in front of mt. doom and waited with 300000 orcs to back him up. He knew the only was to destroy him was to destroy the ring, and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. Doom!! there was not a SINGLE guard on Mt.Doom when Frodo came there!?!!! Morgoth can only be beaten by Valar since he is one! ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 15 Aug 2001 12:40:45 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9ldqkd$1du$1@readme.uio.no> References: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (OSF1) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47603 On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:58:11 -0400, Stan Brown wrote: >Michael Jacobson wrote in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Time >>and again in TS the reader witnesses Morgoth's spies infiltrating even >>the courts of the great Noldor lords. > >I'm trying to remember _any_ occasion other than Maeglin in >Gondolin. And that wasn't a spy sent by Morgoth, but someone who was >already part of the inner circle and was corrupted by Morgoth. > >Could you remind us of say three examples to back up that "time and >again"? Hm. Well there's a spy of Morgoth who disguises himself as one of the son's of Feanor at the Feast of Reuniting. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 15 Aug 2001 07:47:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.218.216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997886836 28584 127.0.0.1 (15 Aug 2001 14:47:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2001 14:47:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47850 stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message news:<9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>... > "Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, > he [Sauron] remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable > of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he > was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating > him, and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of > Middle-earth. ..... He [Sauron] was often able to achieve > things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not > or could not complete in the furious hast of his malice." Thanks for the thought provoking quote and thoughts, Stephen. Whether Sauron was in fact a better tactician than Morgoth is debatable. Although Morgoth's track record in dealing with his enemies was far superior to Sauron's, I'll grant you that Sauron may have had a hand in his master's plots (though in TS his involvement is, I believe, never specifically mentioned; always descriptions of Morgoth plotting and fuming on his own). You brought up Morgoth's superior armies, but how did he get them in the first place? He attained them through corrupting other maiar, from (probably) perverting captured elves and breeding them into orc armies, and otherwise using his manipulation, intimidation and corrupting powers to their fullest. Sauron, in fact, was only another example of how Morgoth used beings of all sorts through persuasion and clever brivery to achieve his aims. He carefully planned out everything he did. His aims were achieved through long pondering, deceit, and treachery. He was ALWAYS biding his time in TS. And his track record proved that his tactics worked most if not all of the time. Generally when Morgoth lost a battle it was due to the fact that he was testing his foes with a fraction of his strength. Just as a side note, you mention Morgoth's far superior forces, but what about the forces of good he was up against? I won't make a list, but let's just say that as puny as Sauron's forces were compared to his master's, the forces of good in LOTR are at least equally puny compared to the Morgoth's enemies in the First Age (Noldor lords and their armies in their prime, anyone?). He defeated his foes not through brute strength, but through his superior powers of deception and espionage. Morgoth knew where to strike and how much force to use. The passage you quoted was quite relevant. However, I think the most important sentence to note is "At least in the Elder Days, and *before [Sauron] was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth*." (emphasis added) My point is this: even if Sauron was *at one time* more calculating and cooler headed than his master, by the Third Age he wasn't NEARLY as effective as Morgoth ever was in his plans and his war tactics. In fact, Sauron in LOTR was more hot-headed and impulsive than his master ever was! There's no doubt about that, imo. Think about how the ruin of Doriath was achieved, for instance. Morgoth didn't have to send a single orc to achieve it. He simply released the thoroughly manipulated and bent Hurin for Angband: greed, treachery, and the Oath of Mandos did the rest. Show me specifically how Sauron in the Third Age had a better and more efficient mind for destroying his foes than that. ###### From: "test" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:35:01 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47788 did you even read any of the books? fool, you missed the whole point (and the ending to the Silmarillion) dpsmith44@hotmail.com "Markus" wrote in message news:9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com... > If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the ring after he > knew they had it, he would have sat down in front of mt. doom and waited > with 300000 orcs to back him up. He knew the only was to destroy him was to > destroy the ring, and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. > Doom!! there was not a SINGLE guard on Mt.Doom when Frodo came there!?!!! > Morgoth can only be beaten by Valar since he is one! > > ###### From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 15 Aug 2001 16:01:28 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 72 Sender: stephen Message-ID: <9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nw81.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47678 Michael Jacobson wrote: : stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message news:<9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>... : :> "Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, :> he [Sauron] remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable :> of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he :> was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating :> him, and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of :> Middle-earth. ..... He [Sauron] was often able to achieve :> things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not :> or could not complete in the furious hast of his malice." : Thanks for the thought provoking quote and thoughts, Stephen. : Whether Sauron was in fact a better tactician than Morgoth is : debatable. Although Morgoth's track record in dealing with his : enemies was far superior to Sauron's, I'll grant you that Sauron may : have had a hand in his master's plots (though in TS his involvement : is, I believe, never specifically mentioned; always descriptions of : Morgoth plotting and fuming on his own). You brought up Morgoth's : superior armies, but how did he get them in the first place? He : attained them through corrupting other maiar, from (probably) : perverting captured elves and breeding them into orc armies, and : otherwise using his manipulation, intimidation and corrupting powers : to their fullest. Sauron, in fact, was only another example of how : Morgoth used beings of all sorts through persuasion and clever brivery : to achieve his aims. He carefully planned out everything he did. His : aims were achieved through long pondering, deceit, and treachery. He : was ALWAYS biding his time in TS. And his track record proved that : his tactics worked most if not all of the time. Generally when : Morgoth lost a battle it was due to the fact that he was testing his : foes with a fraction of his strength. Please reread the "Ruin of Beleriand". There it clearly says that Morgoth acted before he was ready because of his hate and fear. Remember Morgoth is the guy who gave Ungoliant so much of his power that he was helpless against her. Not a particularly bright move. He also let Luthien put him to sleep (of course Sauron was also suckered by Luthien). Morgoth had superior armies because he was immensely powerful, far more powerful than anything else in Arda. Morgoth's basic tactic was to overwhelm his enemies with superior force. It is a very good tactic, but not a particularly clever one. And where is your evidence that Morgoth used Sauron by means of persuasion and clever bribery? It is clearly stated that Sauron was drawn to Morgoth's power. There is no mention of persuasion or bribery of which I know. : My point is this: even if Sauron was *at one time* more calculating : and cooler headed than his master, by the Third Age he wasn't NEARLY : as effective as Morgoth ever was in his plans and his war tactics. In : fact, Sauron in LOTR was more hot-headed and impulsive than his master : ever was! There's no doubt about that, imo. Think about how the ruin : of Doriath was achieved, for instance. Morgoth didn't have to send a : single orc to achieve it. He simply released the thoroughly : manipulated and bent Hurin for Angband: greed, treachery, and the Oath : of Mandos did the rest. Show me specifically how Sauron in the Third : Age had a better and more efficient mind for destroying his foes than : that. Show me evidence of Sauron being hot-headed or impulsive? Also, Morgoth gets no direct credit for the Oath of Feanor or the Doom of the Noldor. If the Oath and the Doom did not exist, Morgoth would not have had so easy a time. Stephen ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 15 Aug 2001 10:36:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 91 Message-ID: References: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.218.216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997896983 2615 127.0.0.1 (15 Aug 2001 17:36:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2001 17:36:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47858 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Michael Jacobson wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Time > >and again in TS the reader witnesses Morgoth's spies infiltrating even > >the courts of the great Noldor lords. > > I'm trying to remember _any_ occasion other than Maeglin in > Gondolin. And that wasn't a spy sent by Morgoth, but someone who was > already part of the inner circle and was corrupted by Morgoth. > > Could you remind us of say three examples to back up that "time and > again"? Morgoth used spies from the very beginning: "Yet many of the Quendi were filled with dread at [Orome's] coming; and this was the doing of Melkor. For by after-knowledge the wise declare that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them. So it came to pass, some years ere the coming of Orome, that if any of the Elves strayed far abroad, alone or few together, they would often vanish, and never return; and the Quendi said that the Hunter had caught them, and they were afraid...." My apologies to Öjevind for this next quote, taken from message http://groups.google.com/groups?q=morgoth+amlach&hl=en&group=rec.arts.books.tolkien&safe=off&rnum=2&selm=Hgu73.7872%24Nc.14358%40nntpserver.swip.net : Tolkien relates how someone who looked like Amlach appeared at the council and told them that the Sea had no shore, that [t]here was no Light in the West, that the Elves were liars and that the Men should live in their realm and let the Orcs have the realm that was theirs (that is, not participate in the struggle against Morgoth). This dark speech filled many with dismay; but later Amlach turned up and denied that he had been at the council earlier and said those words. In fact, this impersonation of Amlach (whether done by Morgoth or one of his servants) made him repent of going back east; instead he went north and entered the service of Maedhros. The Enemy's skill at sowing dissension and hatred between his adversaries is a recurring theme in Tolkien's books. ---- "...Many therefore of those that yet remained in Estolad made ready to depart; and Bereg led a thousand of the people of Beor away southwards, and they passed out of the songs of those days. But Amlach [a grandson of Marach] repented, saying: 'I have now a quarrel of my own with this Master of Lies, which will last to my life's end'; and he went awar north and entered the service of Maedhros. But those of his people who were of like mind with Bereg chose a new leader, and they went back over the mountains into Eriador, and are forgotten." A thousand of the people of Beor that would have been tremendous allies in the war against Morgoth, lost in great part because of this impersonation of Amlach either by Morgoth or (I think) by one of his spies. We know well that Morgoth had servants capable of shape-changing that could often spy and create dissension among his enemies. Moreover, by this point Morgoth had long ago lost the ability to shape-shift personally (nor would he stoop at this point, I think, for a spy job). Finally, after the Dagor Bragollach, Morgoth sends out spies "among the peoples, accusing their kings and chieftains of greed and of treachery one to another... these lies were often believed; and indeed as the time darkened they had a measure of truth". This kind of dissension caused by spies is classic and oft repeated by Morgoth. There are other quotes, I know, in which spies are generally mentioned as swarming throughout the lands, even right under the noses of the Noldor. In fact, I remember it mentioned somewhere in TS that the Noldor (and the Sindar as well, I think) finally began to utterly turn their backs on any elf that had been captured in Angband and returned, as so often they had been broken by Morgoth and used as spies. This was a shame, since not all of these broken elves actually *were* spies. And, incidentally, I do also consider Maeglin a spy sent by Morgoth (he was coerced, but finally willing considering the Idris element); one of M's favorite methods seemed to be capturing, corrupting, and using. Hurin, for instance, was certainly no spy, yet he was unwittingly under the thrall of Morgoth nonetheless. Certainly Morgoth's spies were the ones that reported the general location of Gondolin to him when Hurin cried out to Turgon after his release. Most if not all of Morgoth's spies, I suspect, were initially broken by him before they became useful tools. ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 15 Aug 2001 10:44:10 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.218.216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997897450 2803 127.0.0.1 (15 Aug 2001 17:44:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2001 17:44:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47855 "Markus" wrote in message news:<9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com>... > If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the ring after he > knew they had it, he would have sat down in front of mt. doom and waited > with 300000 orcs to back him up. He knew the only was to destroy him was to > destroy the ring, and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. > Doom!! there was not a SINGLE guard on Mt.Doom when Frodo came there!?!!! > Morgoth can only be beaten by Valar since he is one! Yep. Unfortunately, Sauron couldn't understand why anyone would actually WANT to destroy such a powerful object; he was convinced it would be used against him by one of the Great. I bet he was wishing he had never created that pesky thing time and time again. Without having to worry with the Ring, he could have bided his time for a decade or two, sending out spies and poisoning the peoples of Middle Earth against each other. After the resulting wars and devastation of the land, he could have easily picked up the pieces and attained complete control of ME. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:00:31 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9leddq$kl1$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o162.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 997898491 21153 212.205.252.162 (15 Aug 2001 18:01:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:01:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47635 test wrote in message news:tnl51a2pl30f05@corp.supernews.com... > did you even read any of the books? > fool, you missed the whole point (and the ending to the Silmarillion) You are rude. And I don't think he's missed the point at all - or if he did, then he doesn't show it in the specific post. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Markus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:06:20 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9leh47$6lq$01$1@news.t-online.com> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 997902279 01 6842 7yHsSMqSSMYXng 010815 19:04:39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320085212707-0001@t-dialin.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47659 i did not miss the point, and neither i am a fool. im just saying that sauron is damn stupid for a maia! he should have the same intelectual(spelling?) abilities as gandalf. to answer your question: ive read the books multiple times in english and german. also, i dont think there is a 'point' in LotR/ Tolkiens work. "test" wrote in message news:tnl51a2pl30f05@corp.supernews.com... > did you even read any of the books? > fool, you missed the whole point (and the ending to the Silmarillion) > > dpsmith44@hotmail.com > > > "Markus" wrote in message > news:9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com... > > If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the ring after > he > > knew they had it, he would have sat down in front of mt. doom and waited > > with 300000 orcs to back him up. He knew the only was to destroy him was > to > > destroy the ring, and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. > > Doom!! there was not a SINGLE guard on Mt.Doom when Frodo came there!?!!! > > Morgoth can only be beaten by Valar since he is one! > > > > > > ###### Message-ID: <3B7AD1B8.E6A7F3D0@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.133.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 997904952 4117541 64.198.133.211 (Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:49:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:49:12 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:49:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47923 Michael Jacobson wrote: > > ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) wrote in message news:<20010814141028.00882.00000962@mb-fx.news.cs.com>... > > > This is some interesting speculation; I think that a Morgoth-run > > offensive would have been more elaborate and interesting than > > Sauron's stupid frontal assult on Minas Tirith. > > Thank you for the fascinating reply! That's just the sort of > discussion/speculation I was looking for! > > Sauron simply did not have the sly finesse that his master did. Time > and again in TS the reader witnesses Morgoth's spies infiltrating even > the courts of the great Noldor lords. Time and again, Morgoth turned > his enemies against each other. Orcs are themselves an extreme > example of Morgoth's methods. All of his servants were attained > through perversion and/or intimidation of the unstained. Sauron was > too obsessed with getting his Ring back to be this wily. We know > Sauron COULD play this game (primarily before and just after forging > the One Ring): making nice with the Numenoreans, for instance, with > calamitous effect. Sauron should have studied his past tactics and > the tactics of his master more thoroughly. Instead, his own treachery > (the Ring) was his undoing. Whereas Morgoth was the Master of sowing > treachery in everyone and everything around him (always to devastating > effect), so much so that the Children just didn't have a chance > against him and the Valar had to intercede. You know, the commanders of the U.S. troops in the War Between the States wasted an awful lot of time trying to outmaneuver their opponenets until, finally, Ulysses Grant took over the show and realized that, bottom line, if he killed fifty rebel soldiers for every one hundred union soldiers he lost, he would win the war easily. Sauron was in much the same position and, with the exception of a couple of very bad breaks (or very good breaks, depending upon your point of view), would have wiped out Minas Tirith pretty easily with the initial assault. Even allowing for the bad breaks, he certainly would been the ultimate victor if the military confrontation had not been abruptly aborted by the destruction of the Ring, which was, essentially, the only real hope the good guys ever had in the whole affair. The secret to winning a war is to have a huge advantage over your enemies when it starts, which is exactly what Sauron had. grimgard ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 15 Aug 2001 14:54:32 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 98 Message-ID: References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.216.29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997912472 11997 127.0.0.1 (15 Aug 2001 21:54:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2001 21:54:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!506675!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48111 stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message news:<9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>... > Please reread the "Ruin of Beleriand". There it clearly says that > Morgoth acted before he was ready because of his hate and fear. Look at all of Morgoth's accomplishments up to that point. Surely you don't believe he succeeded in the devastation and chaos of so much and so many through simple brute force. Morgoth did a pretty good (that is, awful) job in ME considering. Moreover, the fact that *Sauron* "acted before he was ready [in LOTR] because of his hate and fear" was far more damning to *him* than it was for his master. Sauron only had a rag tag army of primarily men and a single maia to deal with; simply nothing compared to what Morgoth had to contend with. And, in the Third Age, he hadn't accomplished a fraction of what Morgoth did in the First. My point is this: with the very same resources and using sheer wits alone (not raw power), Morgoth would have done much more with much less than Sauron had available in the Third Age. Whether this is because Sauron was so distracted and obsessed with the Ring or not is another matter. > Remember Morgoth is the guy who gave Ungoliant so much of his > power that he was helpless against her. Not a particularly bright > move. He also let Luthien put him to sleep (of course Sauron was > also suckered by Luthien). Morgoth, like Sauron, was overconfident; filled with pride. He probably never thought a mere servant (however powerful) would dare to come against him. It worked out pretty well for him in the end anyway, considering. The Two Trees utterly dead, the seeds of evil he sowed in Feanor and Company come to full fruition, the Silmarils in his possession... Yep: not bad. And it was all the product of Morgoth *biding his time*; playing nice with the other Valar and the Eldar and spreading lies and half-truths for a long, long time. Hell, the only time he overplayed his hand leading up to the Darkening of Valinor was when he pushed Feanor too hard and revealed his lust for the jewels. > > Morgoth had superior armies because he was immensely powerful, > far more powerful than anything else in Arda. Morgoth's basic > tactic was to overwhelm his enemies with superior force. It > is a very good tactic, but not a particularly clever one. I disagree. Evidence? Reread my previous posts. In short, Morgoth liked to pit his enemies against one another in various clever ways. If he hadn't played slyly, he *never* would have succeeded in overwhelming the Children by sheer numbers (just as they, of course, would never have been able to defeat him, either). You're underestimating how powerful the Noldor were in their prime. Remember, for centuries there was a stalemate between the allied Children and Morgoth. If Morgoth hadn't successfully turned them against each other repeatedly, the Children might have been able to keep Morgoth in check indefinitely. > > And where is your evidence that Morgoth used Sauron by means > of persuasion and clever bribery? It is clearly stated that > Sauron was drawn to Morgoth's power. There is no mention of persuasion > or bribery of which I know. > Now you're splitting hairs. How do you *think* Sauron was drawn into Morgoth's power. What are the typical means that *anyone* draws anyone else into their power? What were Morgoth's typical methods? I think this is an instance when one can read between the lines. > Show me evidence of Sauron being hot-headed or impulsive? Let's see. How about his whole war campaign in LOTR, particularly after Aragorn revealed himself. In LOTR, Sauron seemed pretty rash and foolhardy to me. He poured everything he had at the armies of the West. Surely you realize that Sauron made a number of terrible mistakes and miscalculations throughout LOTR. If you'd like, I'd be happy to browse through and make a list. In fact, you could probably just browse the archives of either newsgroup yourself to find a pretty comprehensive list of compelling evidence. > Also, > Morgoth gets no direct credit for the Oath of Feanor or the Doom > of the Noldor. If the Oath and the Doom did not exist, Morgoth > would not have had so easy a time. Morgoth's deception turned Feanor against the Valar and the Darkening of Valinor and the death of Finwe (both directly Morgoth related) further inflamed him. It was Morgoth's INTENT to turn Feanor against the Valar; he KNEW it would mean chaos and grief for at least some of the Eldar. The Oath of Feanor and the Doom of Mandos both came to be in large measure BECAUSE of what Morgoth did. Yes, it was Feanor's choice, but Morgoth clearly was the instigator. And that instigation was highly intelligent and premeditated. An interesting question: what would have happened had the Oath NOT been taken? Would the Valar immediately have taken care of Morgoth? What would Morgoth have done differently? --Mike ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 01:30:23 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9letqt$sm0$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o208.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 997915293 29376 212.205.252.208 (15 Aug 2001 22:41:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:41:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!195.206.66.162.MISMATCH!newsfeed.concentric.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:47970 Michael Jacobson wrote in message news:cec308ac.0108151354.28356cfa@posting.google.com... > stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message news:<9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>... > > > Show me evidence of Sauron being hot-headed or impulsive? > > Let's see. How about his whole war campaign in LOTR, particularly > after Aragorn revealed himself. In LOTR, Sauron seemed pretty rash > and foolhardy to me. He was afraid that Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring... Once a powerful opponent, willing and *capable* to challenge him directly through the Palantir appeared, he knew that with the Ring this would be a lord very difficult to face. He had to act quickly - and he was only defeated, beyond all hope, by the quite unexpected journey of Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead which destroyed the Corsair's navy. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Yuk Tang" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9lblam$31js$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010814141201.00882.00000963@mb-fx.news.cs.com> <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:39:47 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3b7b06e1$0$8513$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: userdo28.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 997918437 news.dial.pipex.com 8513 62.188.4.246 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48085 Michael Jacobson wrote in message news:cec308ac.0108151354.28356cfa@posting.google.com... > stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message news:<9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>... > > > Please reread the "Ruin of Beleriand". There it clearly says that > > Morgoth acted before he was ready because of his hate and fear. > > Look at all of Morgoth's accomplishments up to that point. Surely you > don't believe he succeeded in the devastation and chaos of so much and > so many through simple brute force. Morgoth did a pretty good (that > is, awful) job in ME considering. Moreover, the fact that *Sauron* > "acted before he was ready [in LOTR] because of his hate and fear" was > far more damning to *him* than it was for his master. Sauron only had > a rag tag army of primarily men and a single maia to deal with; simply > nothing compared to what Morgoth had to contend with. And, in the > Third Age, he hadn't accomplished a fraction of what Morgoth did in > the First. Look at it another way. Morgoth's pet maia (Sauron) was more faithful, and more effective to him than was Sauron's (Saruman). That alone is a measure of Morgoth's skill apart from military might. Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "stathis andriopoulos" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:47:48 +0300 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9lg50s$1okv$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9leh47$6lq$01$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-h051.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 997955420 58015 212.205.217.51 (16 Aug 2001 09:50:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Aug 2001 09:50:20 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48035 > "test" wrote in message news:tnl51a2pl30f05@corp.supernews.com... > you missed the whole point (and the ending to the Silmarillion) > > > > dpsmith44@hotmail.com >"Markus" wrote in message news:9leh47$6lq$01$1@news.t-online.com... > i did not miss the point, and neither i am a fool I think that what test is saying (with a quite rude way) is that the whole plan of the council was based in the fact that Sauron would surely never ever think that someone would try to destroy the ring,nor that nobody would try and use it to become master of the ME in his place! > im just saying that > sauron is damn stupid for a maia! he should have the same > intelectual(spelling?) abilities as gandalf. It is explained,that his malice and hate blinded him,not his beeing stupid! -- ??????????? ?????? ???? ?????????..... ###### Lines: 129 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Aug 2001 15:39:51 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Message-ID: <20010816113951.01541.00000703@mb-cj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48050 Michael Jacobson wrote: >Ottoyuhr wrote: >> He could divide even Elves against each >> other, in the First Age, when they really should have known better; >> in the Third Age, he could have had every culture or race battling >> all the others. > >Yep. Divide & Conquer. One could say that Sauron used Saruman in >this way, but he certainly could have exploited it on a larger scale >(i.e. inciting war between dwarves and elves and men all over ME). >I'm certain Morgoth could have caused the ruin of Minas Tirith from >within without much of an army set against it. Or without any army whatsoever. Would Denethor even have realized where the rebelliousness of his vassals was coming from? For that matter, Morgoth's agents would have little trouble. If Morgoth took Osiligath decisively, showing off the immense size of his military, his spies could spread dissention among Gondor's vassals, making it seem as if the survival of Gondor didn't really matter much to them, and that standing and fighting against Morgoth's immense forces was suicidal and would not benefit them. It would have been Unnumbered Tears all over again. >Eru knows what he >could do to Denethor, Saruman and/or Aragorn with Sauron's palantir. >A terrible thought: Aragorn decides to reveal himself to Sauron and, >instead, Morgoth's on the other side of the palantir ! That would have been entertaining to read. >> The Rohirrim and Dunlendings would almost certainly not >> have had peace after Saruman's defeat. If Theoden had >> any soldiers to spare for Gondor, they might have had to >> find their way across the mountains themselves - the >> Woses would probably have been reluctant to make >> themselves Morgoth's enemies, simply because he >> had a very good chance of winning the war. > >It's actually more interesting to think of what might have happened >had Morgoth replaced Sauron just AFTER TT rather than just before it. >RETURN OF THE KING might take on a different meaning. Then again, >with Saruman and his forces out of the way, it would be more difficult >for Morgoth to quickly prevail. And, again, there's the Gandalf >factor. If Morgoth had shown up after _Two Towers_, he would have been in the same position as Sauron, with no real way to take Minas Tirith except direct assult. Of course, if Gothmog and his shock troops were there, the city would probably fall in a few hours, just like Gondolin; unfortunately, Morgoth only had relatively green Orcish and Human troops, and the Nazgul, for what little they were worth. >> Tolkien omitted any details about Gondor's subject >> peoples, but the variety of racial stocks of the vassal >> armies that came to defend Minas Tirith is clear >> evidence that they existed. Knowing Morgoth, they >> would not have been content with being subjects for >> long. > >Absolutely. ME in the Third Age was an inconsolidated mess that would >have made Morgoth dance with glee. If he had the time to manipulate things. Morgoth worked very slowly, especially compared to Sauron. >Imagine how disappointed he would >be with Sauron for not taking over a long time ago. Just "disappointed?" I suspect that Morgoth would soon be short one incompetent senior officer. >OTOH, let's not forget the mobilizing and soothing effect Gandalf the >White had everywhere he went. That would be one thorn in Morgoth's >side for sure. How do you think he would attempt to deal with him? Hmm... He would certainly have realized how powerful Gandalf was (or rather, how unscrupulous of a cheater he was) after Gandalf killed a Balrog and came back to life. But remember, if the Rohirrim hadn't showed up just in the nick of time, Gandalf would have been killed by the Witch-king. And Morgoth could certainly have kept the Rohirrim from coming south, whether by making them rebellious against Gondor, by strengthening Saruman, or by inciting their neighbors, the Dunlendings. For that matter, a new invasion of Wainriders would be a distinct possibility. The mere knowledge that they were fighting the "Supreme Manipulator" would probably have gotten Theoden to leave a larger force behind... >> In other words, Morgoth could probably have won >> the War of the Whatever (Ring no longer fits if >> there isn't a Ring to destroy) in less time than it took >> Sauron to lose it, simply because Morgoth was >> shrewd in managing his wars while Sauron was >> the soon-to-be-archetypal Dark Lord sitting in >> his tower sending vast armies against a unified >> world. Remember, Morgoth nearly won against >> the whole of the Noldor, commanded by generals >> like Fingolfin and Maedhros. He could have beaten >> Aragorn, Theoden, et al. in his sleep. > >I *sort* of agree with you here, though I still think that Gandalf >would be a pain for Morgoth. Until the Rohirrim failed to show and his skull was bashed in by the Witch King. >What would Gandalf have recommended if >Morgoth was suddenly in charge in Mordor? Mass suicide comes to mind >(;-)), but Gandalf was not one to surrender in the face of despair. He would have borrowed the core strategy of King Arthur: "Run away! Run away!" >As Steward of Middle Earth, he would be compelled to preserve whatever >could still be saved. How would he go about it? By having the Elves get the heck out of there, and trying to fortify inacessible locations. Of course, knowing Gandalf, he would just dig in at Minas Tirith and bet everything on one battle, hoping that the Author would intervene on his behalf. :) Well, that's what he _did_, isn't it? ###### Lines: 95 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Aug 2001 15:55:19 GMT References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Message-ID: <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48053 stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote: >Ottoyuhr wrote: >: stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote: > >: > >:>According to Tolkien, Morgoth was utlimately a nihilist who wanted >:>to destroy everything, including his own creatures eventually, and >:>had little attention for details, whereas Sauron liked discipline. >:>Reading between the lines, it is easy to conclude that Sauron was the >:>better tactician. > >: But looking at their war records, Morgoth was better. Read the >: descriptions of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (or the BoLT Fall >: of Gondolin) and the Siege of Minas Tirith for examples of what >: I mean. > >No, I do not see examples of what you mean. Morgoth had far >more powerful armies than Sauron did. Morgoth had dragons >and balrogs and demonic spirits. Sauron had an army composed >mainly of orcs and men, some trolls, elephants and 9 Ringwraiths. >Do you really believe that Morgoth could have conquered Gondolin >with the army Sauron had? No, but Minas Tirith was as much weaker than Gondolin as Sauron's army was weaker than Morgoth's. Remember, Morgoth had Balrogs, mechanized war machines, and more orcs than anyone cares to think about, but he was fighting against a city full of archers with an almost infinite supply of arrows, built on a hill that could not be scaled, with no alternative to a direct assult. Accordingly, he sent the strongest forces he could to hit the city quickly. Sauron, in contrast, first darkened the sky. No more room for an unexpected attack. Then, he took his time attacking Minas Tirith, taking the outmost defenses (the Falas) before even thinking about assulting the city. His strategic style was closer to the deliberate approach of Maedhros than Morgoth's penchant for surprise attacks - and we all know who nearly won _that_ war, and had to be stopped by a sudden assult from the Far West... >Also, Sauron was Morgoth's servant, and had "In all the deeds >of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the >deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part" (The Valequenta) >so therefore part of the credit for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears >and the Fall of Gondolin go to Sauron. Sauron was lurking in Minas Tirith on the Sirion, then ran away to Angband while trying to cover up the fact that he had a dog bite on his neck. I doubt that he was planning anything... Gothmog was the leader of Morgoth's main armies, and he probably helped plan the assult on Gondolin, but Sauron had almost certainly no part. >Furthermore, from >the "Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed" > "Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, > he [Sauron] remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable > of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he > was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating > him, and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of > Middle-earth. ..... He [Sauron] was often able to achieve > things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not > or could not complete in the furious hast of his malice." >Other texts discussing Morgoth and Sauron strongly suggest that >Sauron was the better tactician. I consider the "Myths Transformed" section to be largely un- canonical. It seems as if Tolkien's opinion of Morgoth changed between the Silmarillion and _MR_, and he started spewing "ultimate nihilist" nonsense to cover up the fact that he had made, and for some reason didn't like, an incredibly... diabolical... devil. If Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, he did a very good job of covering it up. "The only way that I can be stopped is by throwing the Ring, which I can't find, into a volcano in the middle of my territory. I know! Let's leave the volcano unguarded!" "Hmm... If I attack Minas Tirith directly, I can probably take it because the garrison is small and there are so many non- combatants that they'll get in the way. If I wait, the garrison will be reinforced, and they'll have time to evacuate the non-combatants. All right, let's take Osiligath first, then the Falas, and then we'll see about Minas Tirith." "We've torn down the gate to Minas Tirith. Now, we can send a flood of Orcs into the first circle and try to destroy the second gate, or we can have the Witch King walk in while playing this nifty musical theme I stole from Lucasfilm, and pause for dramatic effect. Witch-king, get moving!" The only possible excuse is that he was senile. ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Aug 2001 15:57:33 GMT References: <9le6co$2ka9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Message-ID: <20010816115733.01541.00000710@mb-cj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48048 stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote: >Please reread the "Ruin of Beleriand". There it clearly says that >Morgoth acted before he was ready because of his hate and fear. >Remember Morgoth is the guy who gave Ungoliant so much of his >power that he was helpless against her. Not a particularly bright >move. He also let Luthien put him to sleep (of course Sauron was >also suckered by Luthien). Luthien was quite capible of "suckering" anyone she felt like. Please ignore the Freudian innuendo in the previous sentance. :) ###### From: "admin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:51:30 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9leh47$6lq$01$1@news.t-online.com> <9lg50s$1okv$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48056 Thank you Stathis! Markus, Gandalf called Saruman a fool and no one called him rude. I meant that you are like a child with a simple understanding of things. There, Aris, is that better? dpsmith44@hotmail.com or "test" if you want "stathis andriopoulos" wrote in message news:9lg50s$1okv$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr... > > "test" wrote in message > news:tnl51a2pl30f05@corp.supernews.com... > > you missed the whole point (and the ending to the Silmarillion) > > > > > > dpsmith44@hotmail.com > >"Markus" wrote in message > news:9leh47$6lq$01$1@news.t-online.com... > > i did not miss the point, and neither i am a fool > > I think that what test is saying (with a quite rude way) > is that the whole plan of the council was based in the fact > that Sauron would surely never ever think that someone would > try to destroy the ring,nor that nobody would try and use it to become > master of the ME in his place! > > > im just saying that > > sauron is damn stupid for a maia! he should have the same > > intelectual(spelling?) abilities as gandalf. > > It is explained,that his malice and hate > blinded him,not his beeing stupid! > -- > ??????????? ?????? ???? ?????????..... > > ###### From: "Robert Shaw" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:26:31 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 107 Message-ID: <9lgvth$1kd$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-660.norwegian-forest.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 997982961 1677 217.134.98.148 (16 Aug 2001 17:29:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Aug 2001 17:29:21 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48032 "Ottoyuhr" wrote > > Sauron, in contrast, first darkened the sky. No more room for > an unexpected attack. It's difficult to make surpise attacks when your opponent has a palantir. > Then, he took his time attacking Minas > Tirith, taking the outmost defenses (the Falas) before even > thinking about assulting the city. Sensible military tactics. He should also have had his troops reman the outer defences themselves, which would have protected them against relieving forces, but his tactics were pretty good. > His strategic style was closer > to the deliberate approach of Maedhros than Morgoth's > penchant for surprise attacks - and we all know who nearly > won _that_ war, and had to be stopped by a sudden assult > from the Far West... > Morgoth had overwhelming numbers. He didn't need subtlety. > >Also, Sauron was Morgoth's servant, and had "In all the deeds > >of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the > >deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part" (The Valequenta) > >so therefore part of the credit for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears > >and the Fall of Gondolin go to Sauron. > > Sauron was lurking in Minas Tirith on the Sirion, then ran away > to Angband while trying to cover up the fact that he had a > dog bite on his neck. I doubt that he was planning anything... > Gothmog was the leader of Morgoth's main armies, and he > probably helped plan the assult on Gondolin, but Sauron had > almost certainly no part. > The Valaquenta says otherwise. 'In all the deed' includes the wars. > > I consider the "Myths Transformed" section to be largely un- > canonical. It seems as if Tolkien's opinion of Morgoth changed > between the Silmarillion and _MR_, and he started spewing > "ultimate nihilist" nonsense to cover up the fact that he had made, > and for some reason didn't like, an incredibly... diabolical... devil. > If Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, he did a very good > job of covering it up. If Morgoth wanted to claim the credit, Sauron wasn't in any position to argue. > > "The only way that I can be stopped is by throwing the Ring, > which I can't find, into a volcano in the middle of my territory. > I know! Let's leave the volcano unguarded!" Mordor itself was well enough guarded. The black gate was impassible, and he couldn't have found a better guard for Cirth Ungol than Shelob. > > "Hmm... If I attack Minas Tirith directly, I can probably take > it because the garrison is small and there are so many non- > combatants that they'll get in the way. Minas Tirith is a sufficiently strong defensive position that even a small garrison can hold off a much larger army. > If I wait, the garrison > will be reinforced, and they'll have time to evacuate the > non-combatants. All right, let's take Osiligath first, then > the Falas, and then we'll see about Minas Tirith." > Securing his supply line and protecting his flanks against attack, a sensible strategy. > "We've torn down the gate to Minas Tirith. Now, we > can send a flood of Orcs into the first circle and try to > destroy the second gate, or we can have the Witch > King walk in while playing this nifty musical theme I > stole from Lucasfilm, and pause for dramatic effect. > Witch-king, get moving!" > Gandalf was defending the gate, and he'd already killed a balrog. How many orcs would be willing to face him, even if the alternative was the Witch King? In daylight, even the nazgul were reluctant to face Gandalf. They waited until nightfall to attack him at Weathertop. Caught between Gandalf the White and the Witch King, the orcs would be more likely to faint than to put up an effective fight. Furthermore, had it not been for the terror of the Witch King's presence, Gandalf would have been backed up by the gate's human defenders. Also, Sauron wasn't the field commader at the Pellenor Fields, that was the Witch King who'd proved his military and political strengths by destroying Arnor. -- 'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett Robert Shaw ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:02:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 997995721 12.79.22.226 (Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:02:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:02:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48263 "Markus" wrote in message news:9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com... > If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the > ring after he knew they had it, he would have sat down in front > of mt. doom and waited with 300000 orcs to back him up. Not true. Frodo may well have been the ONLY person in Middle Earth capable of resisting the Ring as long as he did. It was far more likely (and to Sauron inconceivable that it not be the case) that one of the Great would take the Ring and become a rival to his power. > He knew the only was to destroy him was to destroy the ring Not true. Sauron could be just as completely vanquished by someone fully claiming the One as by it being destroyed. Since the Ring's power tempted people to this act Sauron was terrified of it happening. > and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. Doom!! Not entirely true. Tolkien indicated that there were other ways the Ring could be destroyed... however, Mt Doom was the only one readily available to the 'good guys'. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:04:11 +1000 Organization: Chicken Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20010816113951.01541.00000703@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998010240 1426 192.168.30.2 (17 Aug 2001 01:04:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 01:04:00 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!203.50.2.79!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48341 In article <20010816113951.01541.00000703@mb-cj.news.cs.com>, ottoyuhr@cs.com says... > He would have borrowed the core strategy of King Arthur: > > "Run away! Run away!" Isn't that the strategy of Sir Robin the Not-So-Brave? -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Bulwer-Lytton Contest: "Virgule gazed across the vast, cold, steel expanse past his inquisitor to witness the full consequence of his previous decision - feral, withered children, in tattered, filthy garments, toiled mindlessly at his command in a single chamber which reeked of oil and burning animal flesh - his time had come to deliver the final instruction; "Yes! I would like fries with that."" ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:10:27 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.55 X-Server-Date: 17 Aug 2001 01:07:34 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48418 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Not true. Frodo may well have been the ONLY person in Middle >Earth capable of resisting the Ring as long as he did. It was >far more likely (and to Sauron inconceivable that it not be the >case) that one of the Great would take the Ring and become a rival >to his power. Maybe it's s time to give a nod to Aragorn here. He doesn't get much credit for _not_ trying to seize the Ring, but he was exposed to its influence for far longer than Boromir. The whole of the journey from Bree to Rivendell, Aragorn could easily have despatched Frodo and the other hobbits, with no one the wiser. Boromir had the inhibiting effect of Aragorn and (for a while) Gandalf, and still he fell. So I think we should give some credit to Aragorn, who seems to have resisted the temptation completely. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jamie Armstrong" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:15:19 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9lhs6g$h7t$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-142.tennessee.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 998011920 17661 62.137.93.142 (17 Aug 2001 01:32:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 01:32:00 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48273 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.15e6390d6c574e2b98c74e@news.mindspring.com... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Not true. Frodo may well have been the ONLY person in Middle > >Earth capable of resisting the Ring as long as he did. It was > >far more likely (and to Sauron inconceivable that it not be the > >case) that one of the Great would take the Ring and become a rival > >to his power. > > Maybe it's s time to give a nod to Aragorn here. He doesn't get much > credit for _not_ trying to seize the Ring, but he was exposed to its > influence for far longer than Boromir. The whole of the journey from > Bree to Rivendell, Aragorn could easily have despatched Frodo and > the other hobbits, with no one the wiser. Boromir had the inhibiting > effect of Aragorn and (for a while) Gandalf, and still he fell. > > So I think we should give some credit to Aragorn, who seems to have > resisted the temptation completely. Don't forget Sam: one slight waver, but he resisted. He was exposed to the Ring longer than anyone else in the company bar Frodo Jamie ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:10:01 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 39 Message-ID: <9lin36$t5j$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p176.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998039463 29875 212.205.253.176 (17 Aug 2001 09:11:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:11:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48251 Ottoyuhr wrote in message news:20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com... > Sauron, in contrast, first darkened the sky. No more room for > an unexpected attack. Given that the orcs preferred to fight in the darkness, that was a necessity.. > >Furthermore, from > >the "Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed" > > "Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, > > he [Sauron] remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable > > of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he > > was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating > > him, and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of > > Middle-earth. ..... He [Sauron] was often able to achieve > > things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not > > or could not complete in the furious hast of his malice." > >Other texts discussing Morgoth and Sauron strongly suggest that > >Sauron was the better tactician. > > I consider the "Myths Transformed" section to be largely un- > canonical. It seems as if Tolkien's opinion of Morgoth changed > between the Silmarillion and _MR_, and he started spewing > "ultimate nihilist" nonsense to cover up the fact that he had made, > and for some reason didn't like, an incredibly... diabolical... devil. "For some reason didn't like"? He certainly didn't like Morgoth/Satan, but if you mean he didn't like the character, I don't understand why the nihilistic comments make that obvious. He had created from the start an incredibly, diabolical, *nihilistic* devil. There are many things I don't like in Myths Transformed but I had seen Morgoth as a nihilist even before I read it... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:11:43 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9lin6b$u$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9leh47$6lq$01$1@news.t-online.com> <9lg50s$1okv$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p176.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998039564 30 212.205.253.176 (17 Aug 2001 09:12:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:12:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48244 admin wrote in message news:tnntsh52k851db@corp.supernews.com... > Thank you Stathis! > Markus, Gandalf called Saruman a fool and no one called him rude. LOL! Aris Katsaris ###### From: "stathis andriopoulos" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:50:43 +0300 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9lipie$ll2$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9lhs6g$h7t$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-k172.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 998041998 22178 195.167.106.172 (17 Aug 2001 09:53:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 09:53:18 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48329 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote > > So I think we should give some credit to Aragorn, who seems to have > > resisted the temptation completely. > > Don't forget Sam: one slight waver, but he resisted. He was exposed to the > Ring longer than anyone else in the company bar Frodo Actually,noone's exposure to the ring could be compared to that of Sam's!He even wore the Damn thing!He was next to it the whole time!He was a small hobbit with no powers, he was no different than gollum,with the ring's effect,he should at least try to steal it,or even kill Frodo and run away,but he didn't. His feelings towards Frodo,and loyalty,not even the ring could corrupt. Aragorn's resistance can't be compared with that of Sam's --- ×ñçóéìïðïéþ êÜðïéá äüóç õðåñâïëÞò..... ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 17 Aug 2001 08:45:11 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 129 Message-ID: References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.123.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998063111 29243 127.0.0.1 (17 Aug 2001 15:45:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 15:45:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48410 ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) wrote in message news:<20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com>... > > I consider the "Myths Transformed" section to be largely un- > canonical. It seems as if Tolkien's opinion of Morgoth changed > between the Silmarillion and _MR_, and he started spewing > "ultimate nihilist" nonsense to cover up the fact that he had made, > and for some reason didn't like, an incredibly... diabolical... devil. > If Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, he did a very good > job of covering it up. You know, I wasn't going to mention this, but you are absolutely right. I mean, in the same series of essays Tolkien rethinks and makes sometimes disturbing (proposed) revisions to even very basic concepts of his previous work. Tolkien, of course, had every right to do it, but since he merely sketched out basic outlines and wrote mere philisophical musings in these essays, the reader has no obligation to take them as canon. I think you're also right that Tolkien was perhaps disturbed at how AMAZINGLY intelligent and cunning his Morgoth had turned out to be. After all, Morgoth's plots and scheming came from the Professor's own mind, and at least I never got the idea that Morgoth defeated himself (as Sauron ultimately did). And, like Milton's Satan, Morgoth was only "defeated" by a divine intervention of brute force. Not a very comforting moral to THAT story (i.e. you can only defeat Ultimate Evil by beating the hell out of it with a vastly superior force of divine beings). While I agree that the canonical Melkor/Morgoth is probably nihilistic at his very core in his capacity to feel a jealous hatred toward everything in existence, Tolkien would have had a *lot* of rewriting to do to convince me that the Morgoth of _The Silmarillion_ lacked the subtlety and cunning and intelligence of Sauron in any Age. In the "Myths Transformed" essays, Tolkien indicated that he was thinking about increasing Morgoth's power to a point where even all of the other Valar couldn't have handled or imprisoned him and, at the same time, was considering dumbing Morgoth WAAAY down so that essentially he would have become a tremendously powerful, but extremely self-destructive, force of nature. Tolkien would have had his work cut out for him had he actually decided to implement these revisions (which, obviously, he did not). After rereading TS again, it's rather devastating just how INTENSELY Morgoth outsmarted and outmanuevered his enemies at practically every turn. Even the loss of the Silmaril to Beren and Luthien he turns to his ultimate advantage (in a HUGE way). This wasn't a Devil that generally used overwhelmingly superior forces or brute force or impulsive and foolish displays of power to win. When Morgoth got pissed off, he stewed about it and found out PRECISELY what his enemies were up to before he acted in a calculated, devious, and extremely intelligent manner. Sauron at his best acted in exactly the same manner. In LOTR the reader is privy to many illustrations of the limitations of (and, according to Tolkien) the stupidity of evil. Orcs are often undermining their cause through petty quarrels between each other and their allies because of the greed and pride inherent in "evil" beings. Throughout TS, though, Morgoth turns this theory on its head by constantly taking advantage of those very "evil" qualities which exist in the Children themselves! Evil, thanks originally to Morgoth one might suppose, exists even in the very good (e.g. Thingol's greed once he was given a Silmaril by what was left of Hurin; there are TONS of further examples in TS). The reason why I am rather disappointed with the Sauron of LOTR is that he just wasn't as good as his master at bringing out the worst in his foes. Saruman was an untrustworthy ally at best and Denethor's madness was the best Sauron could accomplish in this measure. His evil undermined itself, whilst Morgoth was always busy sowing and cultivating seeds of evil in his greatest enemies. Even Sauron's basic skills of espionage were weak. For instance, Sauron could have and *should* have sent out spies that would have, at some point, infiltrated or at least eavesdropped on the Fellowship (at some point between the Council and the Breaking). Morgoth *certainly* would have accomplished this had he been in control (I wouldn't have been surprised, hypothetically, if Boromir had turned out to *be* that spy of Morgoth, captured and broken by his desire for power and used against the Fellowship). Even if Sauron could not have *understood* that the Fellowship was planning to toss the Ring into the fire, he should have at least *known* about the plan to do it and acted accordingly. So the question is this: why, with a palantir at his disposal and all of his many spies swarming the land, could Sauron not figure out where the Fellowship was heading or why they were heading there with his Ring? Even given that this was not possible for him, let's consider some of Sauron's BIG mistakes in LOTR: 1) The first that always comes to my mind is the fact that Sauron didn't interrogate Pippin when he had the chance via palantir. He acted impulsively and, in this case, foolishly. Gandalf said it best himself: "If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.'" Whoops. 2) Sauron should never have opened the gates to the Captains of the West when they showed up at Morannon. If he hadn't, Aragorn and Co would have been rendered impotent and wouldn't have had the resources to camp outside the Black Gate for very long. If Sauron had thought about it (or had used his spies effectively), he would have figured out that Aragorn WASN'T using the Ring and that the armies were simply a distraction for something else. Sauron KNEW there was at least one enemy spy at large in Mordor. Why didn't he consider other possibilities? Again, Sauron became too eager. 3) Sauron left Thrain to rot in Dol Guldur after taking the last of the Seven Rings from him. He simply forgot about Thrain, which was a HUGE mistake considering that this led directly to his downfall as Gandalf wouldn't have gotten the map, the Quest of Erebor never would have happened and the One would probably never have turned up. Nice going, Sauron. These are three tremendous mistakes Sauron made and there are at least a few more I can think of but don't have time to flesh out. Btw, I'm not trying to declare that Sauron was at all inept in LOTR. FAR from it. He was a brilliant, sneaky Power and consolidator of forces, even in the Third Age (and he was up against foes that had a DISTURBING amount of astronimically unlikely good luck). But, at least in the Third Age, he was, imo, clearly inferior to Morgoth as both a leader and as a tactician. --Mike ###### From: "test" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:34:14 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 159 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48367 you should check out Morgoths Ring. i bet you'd find it interesting because it touches many things that you brought up. in the beginning, Morgoth corrupted the WHOLE EARTH. there is a piece of the evil Melkor element in everything. he was more of an elemental force. an unbelievable powerful one at that. didn't he in the 4th battle (i think) pretty much wipe clear the settlements of the Nolder that had established the siege of Angband with lava that burned all of Ard-galen. i think Hithlum was only saved by the mountains! pretty tough for an Elf to fight that! i never picked up on how Morgoth was so smart though everyone here seems to be forgetting about the Curse on the Nolder and how the Oath kept messing things up for the elves. they almost had him beat in the 5th battle (union of Maedhros?) but those damn easterlings messed everything up again. another thing that i didn't really appreciate until i read it many times, was that the Last Battle WRECKED most of Beleriand!!!!!!!! how much power was released to do that? Morgoth must have depleted most of his "essence" doing that or how else could a Maiar and elves have brought him back to Valimar? dpsmith44@hotmail.com "Michael Jacobson" wrote in message news:cec308ac.0108170745.679cd89b@posting.google.com... > ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) wrote in message news:<20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com>... > > > > > I consider the "Myths Transformed" section to be largely un- > > canonical. It seems as if Tolkien's opinion of Morgoth changed > > between the Silmarillion and _MR_, and he started spewing > > "ultimate nihilist" nonsense to cover up the fact that he had made, > > and for some reason didn't like, an incredibly... diabolical... devil. > > If Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, he did a very good > > job of covering it up. > > You know, I wasn't going to mention this, but you are absolutely > right. I mean, in the same series of essays Tolkien rethinks and > makes sometimes disturbing (proposed) revisions to even very basic > concepts of his previous work. Tolkien, of course, had every right to > do it, but since he merely sketched out basic outlines and wrote mere > philisophical musings in these essays, the reader has no obligation to > take them as canon. I think you're also right that Tolkien was > perhaps disturbed at how AMAZINGLY intelligent and cunning his Morgoth > had turned out to be. After all, Morgoth's plots and scheming came > from the Professor's own mind, and at least I never got the idea that > Morgoth defeated himself (as Sauron ultimately did). And, like > Milton's Satan, Morgoth was only "defeated" by a divine intervention > of brute force. Not a very comforting moral to THAT story (i.e. you > can only defeat Ultimate Evil by beating the hell out of it with a > vastly superior force of divine beings). > > While I agree that the canonical Melkor/Morgoth is probably nihilistic > at his very core in his capacity to feel a jealous hatred toward > everything in existence, Tolkien would have had a *lot* of rewriting > to do to convince me that the Morgoth of _The Silmarillion_ lacked the > subtlety and cunning and intelligence of Sauron in any Age. In the > "Myths Transformed" essays, Tolkien indicated that he was thinking > about increasing Morgoth's power to a point where even all of the > other Valar couldn't have handled or imprisoned him and, at the same > time, was considering dumbing Morgoth WAAAY down so that essentially > he would have become a tremendously powerful, but extremely > self-destructive, force of nature. Tolkien would have had his work > cut out for him had he actually decided to implement these revisions > (which, obviously, he did not). > > After rereading TS again, it's rather devastating just how INTENSELY > Morgoth outsmarted and outmanuevered his enemies at practically every > turn. Even the loss of the Silmaril to Beren and Luthien he turns to > his ultimate advantage (in a HUGE way). This wasn't a Devil that > generally used overwhelmingly superior forces or brute force or > impulsive and foolish displays of power to win. When Morgoth got > pissed off, he stewed about it and found out PRECISELY what his > enemies were up to before he acted in a calculated, devious, and > extremely intelligent manner. Sauron at his best acted in exactly the > same manner. > > In LOTR the reader is privy to many illustrations of the limitations > of (and, according to Tolkien) the stupidity of evil. Orcs are often > undermining their cause through petty quarrels between each other and > their allies because of the greed and pride inherent in "evil" beings. > > Throughout TS, though, Morgoth turns this theory on its head by > constantly taking advantage of those very "evil" qualities which exist > in the Children themselves! Evil, thanks originally to Morgoth one > might suppose, exists even in the very good (e.g. Thingol's greed once > he was given a Silmaril by what was left of Hurin; there are TONS of > further examples in TS). The reason why I am rather disappointed with > the Sauron of LOTR is that he just wasn't as good as his master at > bringing out the worst in his foes. Saruman was an untrustworthy ally > at best and Denethor's madness was the best Sauron could accomplish in > this measure. His evil undermined itself, whilst Morgoth was always > busy sowing and cultivating seeds of evil in his greatest enemies. > > Even Sauron's basic skills of espionage were weak. > > For instance, Sauron could have and *should* have sent out spies that > would have, at some point, infiltrated or at least eavesdropped on the > Fellowship (at some point between the Council and the Breaking). > Morgoth *certainly* would have accomplished this had he been in > control (I wouldn't have been surprised, hypothetically, if Boromir > had turned out to *be* that spy of Morgoth, captured and broken by his > desire for power and used against the Fellowship). Even if Sauron > could not have *understood* that the Fellowship was planning to toss > the Ring into the fire, he should have at least *known* about the plan > to do it and acted accordingly. > > So the question is this: why, with a palantir at his disposal and all > of his many spies swarming the land, could Sauron not figure out where > the Fellowship was heading or why they were heading there with his > Ring? > > Even given that this was not possible for him, let's consider some of > Sauron's BIG mistakes in LOTR: > > 1) The first that always comes to my mind is the fact that Sauron > didn't interrogate Pippin when he had the chance via palantir. He > acted impulsively and, in this case, foolishly. Gandalf said it best > himself: > > "If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would > have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too > eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so > that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.'" > > Whoops. > > 2) Sauron should never have opened the gates to the Captains of the > West when they showed up at Morannon. If he hadn't, Aragorn and Co > would have been rendered impotent and wouldn't have had the resources > to camp outside the Black Gate for very long. If Sauron had thought > about it (or had used his spies effectively), he would have figured > out that Aragorn WASN'T using the Ring and that the armies were simply > a distraction for something else. Sauron KNEW there was at least one > enemy spy at large in Mordor. Why didn't he consider other > possibilities? Again, Sauron became too eager. > > 3) Sauron left Thrain to rot in Dol Guldur after taking the last of > the Seven Rings from him. He simply forgot about Thrain, which was a > HUGE mistake considering that this led directly to his downfall as > Gandalf wouldn't have gotten the map, the Quest of Erebor never would > have happened and the One would probably never have turned up. Nice > going, Sauron. > > These are three tremendous mistakes Sauron made and there are at least > a few more I can think of but don't have time to flesh out. Btw, I'm > not trying to declare that Sauron was at all inept in LOTR. FAR from > it. He was a brilliant, sneaky Power and consolidator of forces, even > in the Third Age (and he was up against foes that had a DISTURBING > amount of astronimically unlikely good luck). But, at least in the > Third Age, he was, imo, clearly inferior to Morgoth as both a leader > and as a tactician. > > --Mike ###### From: michael.jacobson@usa.net (Michael Jacobson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: 17 Aug 2001 09:40:16 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9lhs6g$h7t$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <9lipie$ll2$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.123.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998066417 31049 127.0.0.1 (17 Aug 2001 16:40:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 16:40:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48421 "stathis andriopoulos" wrote in message news:<9lipie$ll2$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>... > Actually,noone's exposure to the ring could be compared > to that of Sam's!He even wore the Damn thing!He was next to it > the whole time!He was a small hobbit with no powers, > he was no different than gollum,with the ring's effect,he should > at least try to steal it,or even kill Frodo and run away,but he didn't. > His feelings towards Frodo,and loyalty,not even the ring could corrupt. > Aragorn's resistance can't be compared with that of Sam's You're partially right, though Sam's rejection of the Ring also had to do with his awareness of his own limitations: "...he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command." On the other hand, Aragorn, like others of the Great, COULD have used the Ring to defeat Sauron for the greater good. It must have been a mighty temptation to him, but if Aragorn was ever tempted, we never knew about it. I always had the impression that he was far too wise and strong willed and knowledgable about the Ring's pitfalls to dwell on the possibility too much. The greatest temptation was probably that of Gandalf's! Think about how many times and how easily he could have taken the Ring, especially in the early chapters of LOTR. He was visibly tempted at least twice, and Frodo even OFFERED him the Ring in "Shadow of the Past": "'You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?’ ‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.’" I love that exchange. Now THAT's inner turmoil. Gandalf, of all who were exposed to the Ring, COULD have used that power to the best advantage, and he knew that. Gandalf was certainly conflicted. If Sam and Gollum had grand fantasies of what they could do with the power of the Ring, imagine what Gandalf's fantasies were like! Hell, they WOULDN'T be fantasies but fairly accurate thoughts of what he could realistically do with it! Gandalf was, imo, tempted by the Ring the most and for the longest time in LOTR. --Mike ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:28:07 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.1f X-Server-Date: 17 Aug 2001 17:25:13 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48406 Michael Jacobson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >After rereading TS again, it's rather devastating just how INTENSELY >Morgoth outsmarted and outmanuevered his enemies at practically every >turn. Even the loss of the Silmaril to Beren and Luthien he turns to >his ultimate advantage (in a HUGE way). I think it's not so much that Morgoth outsmarted the Valar as that they were immensely, criminally negligent. They were supposed to be watching over the world, but they spent most of their time playing computer games. (Okay, not literally; but they spent nearly all their time in Valinor having festivals and weaving and what not, nearly none out in the world they were supposed to be Guardians of. Ulmo is a shining exception.) "Oooh, Morgoth is loose in the world. Let's build up the mountains on ONE SIDE of Valinor; that'll keep him out." Even Sam knew better, when he spoke sarcastically of their shelter on Caradhras, "'Shelter!' muttered Sam. 'If this is shelter, then one wall and no roof make a house.'" The Valar also knew that the Children would be born soon, that Morgoth had free rein in Middle-earth, and still they did nothing by way of surveillance. Oromë just happened across the Elves on a hunting trip (while he was playing, in other words). Meanwhile, the Elves had been on their own long enough that a significant number had been captured by Morgoth. >Throughout TS, though, Morgoth turns this theory on its head by >constantly taking advantage of those very "evil" qualities which exist >in the Children themselves! Evil, thanks originally to Morgoth one >might suppose, exists even in the very good (e.g. Thingol's greed once >he was given a Silmaril by what was left of Hurin; there are TONS of >further examples in TS). Here we agree completely. Not only does Morgoth take advantage of the stupidity(*) and negligence of the Valar, he also takes advantage of whatever seeds of evil lurk in the Children of Ilúvatar. And that's only natural, since he put it there: he corrupted the very physical stuff of their (and our) bodies before ever they awoke. (*) I was going to write "naïveté", as in Manwë's failure to understand the nature of Morgoth's evil, thus failing to set him in bonds for good when he had the chance. But the Valar go way beyond mere naïveté, as in their belief that a line of mountains would completely protect their land. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:39:10 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9ljoeb$gg1$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q024.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998073612 16897 212.205.254.24 (17 Aug 2001 18:40:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:40:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!golmote!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48259 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.15e71e3355b7236e98c759@news.mindspring.com... > (Okay, not literally; but they spent nearly all > their time in Valinor having festivals and weaving and what not, > nearly none out in the world they were supposed to be Guardians of. > Ulmo is a shining exception.) That's just an illusion. "Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the Making of the World." In Mandos and Ulmo we see two sides of the same coin... If Ulmo wasn't who he was, I'm sure another would have taken his place of providing the assistance of the Valar to the people of Beleriand.... Aris Katsaris ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:46:22 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> <9ljoeb$gg1$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.a3 X-Server-Date: 17 Aug 2001 19:44:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48411 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >That's just an illusion. "Therefore, though in the days of this darkness >I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that >is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the Making >of the World." > >In Mandos and Ulmo we see two sides of the same coin... If Ulmo wasn't >who he was, I'm sure another would have taken his place of providing >the assistance of the Valar to the people of Beleriand.... But my point was, _all_ of the Valar were supposed to be Guardians of the World. Only Ulmo actually did this. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.134.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 998077882 4117541 64.198.134.82 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:51:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:51:22 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:51:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48210 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > > Not entirely true. Tolkien indicated that there were other ways > the Ring could be destroyed... however, Mt Doom was the only one > readily available to the 'good guys'. One of these days, I'm going to have to get around to buying and reading the HoME books. How else could the One Ring have been destroyed? grimgard ###### Message-ID: <3B7D7573.E0697EDB@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.134.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 998077940 4117541 64.198.134.82 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:52:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:52:20 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:52:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48202 Stan Brown wrote: > > > Maybe it's s time to give a nod to Aragorn here. He doesn't get much > credit for _not_ trying to seize the Ring, but he was exposed to its > influence for far longer than Boromir. The whole of the journey from > Bree to Rivendell, Aragorn could easily have despatched Frodo and > the other hobbits, with no one the wiser. Boromir had the inhibiting > effect of Aragorn and (for a while) Gandalf, and still he fell. > > So I think we should give some credit to Aragorn, who seems to have > resisted the temptation completely. It was no problem, really; he was already whipped. :) grimgard ###### From: "John C" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010816113951.01541.00000703@mb-cj.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:17:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.56.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@nycap.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 998115443 24.161.56.25 (Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:17:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:17:23 EDT Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Albany NY Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48390 Ottoyuhr said: > >I *sort* of agree with you here, though I still think that Gandalf > >would be a pain for Morgoth. > > Until the Rohirrim failed to show and his skull was bashed > in by the Witch King. Why the assumption that the Witch King would beat Gandalf in a fight? I mean, come on, it's a Maia (who'd recently been super-sized by his friends back in Valinor), who just a few months ago whupped the tar out of a Balrog, versus the wraith of a long-dead human. I just don't see how the Witch King stood a snowball's chance in Angband against Gandalf. -John C. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:50:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 998139013 12.79.56.113 (Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:50:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:50:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48486 "grimgard" wrote in message news:3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net... > One of these days, I'm going to have to get around to > buying and reading the HoME books. How else could the One Ring > have been destroyed? It's in Letters actually; "The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his [Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made..." Letters #131 As such smithcraft equal or greater than Sauron's - which might be limited to just Sauron, Aule and Feanor (if that many) - could apparently have unmade the Ring without melting it down at Mount Doom. Unfortunately, Feanor was in the halls of Mandos, Aule was in Aman and wouldn't take the thing, and Sauron wasn't likely to oblige. :) ###### From: David Salo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Message-ID: <180820010832157681%dsalo@usa.net> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.8 Lines: 27 Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:31:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.208 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 998141478 208.170.95.208 (Sat, 18 Aug 2001 08:31:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 08:31:18 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48459 In article <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his > [Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the > undying subterranean fire where it was made..." > Letters #131 > > As such smithcraft equal or greater than Sauron's - which might > be limited to just Sauron, Aule and Feanor (if that many) - > could apparently have unmade the Ring without melting it down > at Mount Doom. Unfortunately, Feanor was in the halls of Mandos, > Aule was in Aman and wouldn't take the thing, and Sauron wasn't > likely to oblige. :) This is, strictly speaking, illogical. If I say that a pint of water will fail to fill a gallon jug, or any larger vessel, it does not therefore follow that it will fill a quart container, and of course it won't. All that the passage above says is that a smithcraft less than Sauron's could not break the Ring. It does not follow from that that a smithcraft equal to Sauron's or greater *would* break the Ring; it is entirely possible that such smithcraft would not break the Ring either, and yet the statement that a lesser smithcraft would not break it would still be true. David Salo ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <180820010832157681%dsalo@usa.net> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <4Duf7.14361$Ki1.1172043@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:05:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 998143552 12.79.56.113 (Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:05:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:05:52 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48470 "David Salo" wrote in message news:180820010832157681%dsalo@usa.net... > This is, strictly speaking, illogical. If I say that a pint of > water will fail to fill a gallon jug, or any larger vessel, it > does not therefore follow that it will fill a quart container, > and of course it won't. All that the passage above says is > that a smithcraft less than Sauron's could not break the Ring. > It does not follow from that that a smithcraft equal to Sauron's > or greater *would* break the Ring True. And if JRRT was given to speaking logistician rather than English I might concede the point. :) However, given that Tolkien was writing an informal letter rather than a mathematical treatise on Middle Earth metaphysics I am going to have to argue that he was engaging in a type of common usage where the statement of conditions for a negative defines the limits for the positive. It would be rather extremely odd for Tolkien to state that Sauron did not fear the destruction of the Ring and then list various limits on that destruction... including that smithcraft less than Sauron's could not do so, but somehow leaving out that smithcraft greater than or equal to Sauron's ALSO could not. It would have been somewhat easier to say "...unbreakable by ANY smithcraft...". Thus, while this conclusion does not follow from formal rules of logic applied to the wording - it DOES follow from a logical analysis of English usage and implied intent. It is, in short, 'illogical' to assign mathematical rules of logic to common speech to reach conclusions opposite to those generally intended. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:22:21 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.55 X-Server-Date: 18 Aug 2001 14:19:22 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48519 grimgard wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> Not entirely true. Tolkien indicated that there were other ways >> the Ring could be destroyed... however, Mt Doom was the only one >> readily available to the 'good guys'. > > One of these days, I'm going to have to get around to buying and >reading the HoME books. How else could the One Ring have been >destroyed? While you might very well enjoy HoME, a good answer to your question is in "The Shadow of the Past", LotR I, 2: 'Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. ... Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could [change the Ring]. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire- mountain, and cast the Ring in there, ...' I didn't see Conrad's original article, but if he's suggesting that Tolkien gave us other ways that the One might be destroyed, I'd like to see the references. (I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'd like to see them and weigh them against the above statement, which must be considered canonical if anything is.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 32 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <9gvf7.9879$5t1.20458@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:48:56 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.43.49 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 998146181 212.151.43.49 (Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:49:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:49:41 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48512 Stan Brown hath written: [snip] >I didn't see Conrad's original article, but if he's suggesting that >Tolkien gave us other ways that the One might be destroyed, I'd like >to see the references. (I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'd >like to see them and weigh them against the above statement, which >must be considered canonical if anything is.) Here is the relevant part of Conrad's post: It's in Letters actually; "The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his [Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made..." Letters #131 As such smithcraft equal or greater than Sauron's - which might be limited to just Sauron, Aule and Feanor (if that many) - could apparently have unmade the Ring without melting it down at Mount Doom. Unfortunately, Feanor was in the halls of Mandos, Aule was in Aman and wouldn't take the thing, and Sauron wasn't likely to oblige. :) [/post] Öjevind ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:08:40 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9gvf7.9879$5t1.20458@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.3a X-Server-Date: 19 Aug 2001 05:05:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!feed.cgocable.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48828 Öjevind Lång wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown hath written: > >[snip] > >>I didn't see Conrad's original article, but if he's suggesting that >>Tolkien gave us other ways that the One might be destroyed, I'd like >>to see the references. (I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'd >>like to see them and weigh them against the above statement, which >>must be considered canonical if anything is.) > > >Here is the relevant part of Conrad's post: > >It's in Letters actually; > >"The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his >[Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the >undying subterranean fire where it was made..." >Letters #131 In other words, there were no other ways to destroy it within Middle-earth. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ##### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 08:55:58 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9gvf7.9879$5t1.20458@nntpserver.swip.net> <9lnmu6$a8gkl$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.af X-Server-Date: 19 Aug 2001 12:53:53 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.seicom.net!news.ndh.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48822 Morgil Blackhope wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Öjevind Lång wrote in >>rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>"The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his >>>[Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the >>>undying subterranean fire where it was made..." >>>Letters #131 >> >Stan Brown kirjoitti viestissä ... >>In other words, there were no other ways to destroy it within >>Middle-earth. > >"Undying subterranean fire where it was made" can mean either >the subterranean fire in the *place* where the Ring was made, >or subterranean fire in general. In which case all they had to do >was to find another active volcano... There wasn't one in Middle-earth, as far as anyone knew. I'll write usf for "undying subterranean fire" to save electrons needed for air conditioning. In any event, the Letter didn't say "in usf like that where it was made", or "in the sort of usf in which it was made"; it said "in THE usf WHERE it was made." I think it's pretty plain that no other usf will do, even if any were available. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:15:09 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9loood$k9e$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9lc8li$1dn2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <20010816115519.01541.00000707@mb-cj.news.cs.com> <9ljoeb$gg1$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p147.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998237774 20782 212.205.253.147 (19 Aug 2001 16:16:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:16:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.238.2.15!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48653 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.15e73e9b45200d9898c75c@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >That's just an illusion. "Therefore, though in the days of this darkness > >I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that > >is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the Making > >of the World." > > > >In Mandos and Ulmo we see two sides of the same coin... If Ulmo wasn't > >who he was, I'm sure another would have taken his place of providing > >the assistance of the Valar to the people of Beleriand.... > > But my point was, _all_ of the Valar were supposed to be Guardians > of the World. Only Ulmo actually did this. You are talking about the Wars of Beleriand alone, I gather. The Valar also created the Sun and Moon around that time. Besides, how many Valar are needed to guide Tuor to Gondolin? One's enough, I think. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Finrod Felagund Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:10:40 -0400 Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <180820010832157681%dsalo@usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ac8b386b.ipt.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AUTHid: pavlikad User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48604 On 8/18/01 9:31 AM, in article 180820010832157681%dsalo@usa.net, "David Salo" wrote: > In article > <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad > Dunkerson" wrote: > >> "The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his >> [Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the >> undying subterranean fire where it was made..." >> Letters #131 >> >> As such smithcraft equal or greater than Sauron's - which might >> be limited to just Sauron, Aule and Feanor (if that many) - >> could apparently have unmade the Ring without melting it down >> at Mount Doom. Unfortunately, Feanor was in the halls of Mandos, >> Aule was in Aman and wouldn't take the thing, and Sauron wasn't >> likely to oblige. :) > > This is, strictly speaking, illogical. If I say that a pint of > water will fail to fill a gallon jug, or any larger vessel, it does not > therefore follow that it will fill a quart container, and of course it > won't. All that the passage above says is that a smithcraft less than > Sauron's could not break the Ring. It does not follow from that that a > smithcraft equal to Sauron's or greater *would* break the Ring; it is > entirely possible that such smithcraft would not break the Ring either, > and yet the statement that a lesser smithcraft would not break it would > still be true. On the other hand, wouldn't it be a tad odd to note that a pint of water wouldn't fill a gallon jug or anything larger but not mention the issue of a quart jug? It seems odd to exclude that if you you're discussing what it won't fill (at least, in the context of the way Tolkien is discussing what it would take to break the Ring). So from that angle, Tolkien could be read as saying that smith craft greater than Sauron's *could* damage it. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:02:38 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20010816113951.01541.00000703@mb-cj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.24 X-Server-Date: 20 Aug 2001 13:59:31 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48838 Donald Shepherd wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article <20010816113951.01541.00000703@mb-cj.news.cs.com>, >ottoyuhr@cs.com says... >> He would have borrowed the core strategy of King Arthur: >> >> "Run away! Run away!" > >Isn't that the strategy of Sir Robin the Not-So-Brave? Remember the Trojan rabbit? It was Arthur -- he just didn't soil his armor while he was about it. "In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind-- He found it less exciting. But when away his regiment ran, His place was at the fore, O! That celebrated, cultivated, underrated nobleman The Duke of Plaza-Toro." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com/ "What in heaven's name brought you to Casablanca?" "My health. I came to Casablanca for the waters." "The waters? What waters? We're in the desert." "I was misinformed." ###### Message-ID: <3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.134.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 998337979 4117541 64.198.134.12 (Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:06:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:06:19 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:06:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48860 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > "grimgard" wrote in message > news:3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net... > > > One of these days, I'm going to have to get around to > > buying and reading the HoME books. How else could the One Ring > > have been destroyed? > > It's in Letters actually; > > "The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his > [Sauron's] own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the > undying subterranean fire where it was made..." > Letters #131 > > As such smithcraft equal or greater than Sauron's - which might > be limited to just Sauron, Aule and Feanor (if that many) - > could apparently have unmade the Ring without melting it down > at Mount Doom. Unfortunately, Feanor was in the halls of Mandos, > Aule was in Aman and wouldn't take the thing, and Sauron wasn't > likely to oblige. :) Well, okay, then would it be fair to say that the only way in Middle-earth to destroy the Ring was to cast it into Mount Doom? grimgard ###### Message-ID: <3B816DDE.2CFA912F@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.134.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 998338143 4117541 64.198.134.12 (Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:09:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:09:03 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:09:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48862 Stan Brown wrote: > > > I didn't see Conrad's original article, but if he's suggesting that > Tolkien gave us other ways that the One might be destroyed, I'd like > to see the references. (I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'd > like to see them and weigh them against the above statement, which > must be considered canonical if anything is.) Yes, that's what he was suggesting, and 'Stretch' Dunkerson gave his reasoning around the same time you posted this. :) grimgard ###### From: "Mike" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:31:54 -1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.75.159.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@aloha.net X-Trace: news.aloha.net 998374413 64.75.159.1 (Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:13:33 HST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:13:33 HST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newshub.sdsu.edu!newspeer.cts.com!news.aloha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48987 "Markus" wrote in message news:9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com... > If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the ring after he > knew they had it, he would have sat down in front of mt. doom and waited > with 300000 orcs to back him up. He knew the only was to destroy him was to > destroy the ring, and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. > Doom!! there was not a SINGLE guard on Mt.Doom when Frodo came there!?!!! > Morgoth can only be beaten by Valar since he is one! > > There's atleast 2 reasons why no guards were there: 1. It's extremely difficult and costly to support guards around a volcano that keeps erupting all the time, in the middle of a vast desert choked with deadly volcanic ash. 2. Sauron figured there was no reason to put guards there. Since Aragorn revealed himself to him with the Stone, Sauron was positive _he_ was using the Ring. ###### From: "Mike" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:36:41 -1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.75.159.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@aloha.net X-Trace: news.aloha.net 998374414 64.75.159.1 (Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:13:34 HST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:13:34 HST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newspeer.cts.com!news.aloha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:48986 "Markus" wrote in message news:9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com... > If Sauron would have thought about what they would do with the ring after he > knew they had it, he would have sat down in front of mt. doom and waited > with 300000 orcs to back him up. He knew the only was to destroy him was to > destroy the ring, and he also knew that the only way to do that was Mt. > Doom!! there was not a SINGLE guard on Mt.Doom when Frodo came there!?!!! > Morgoth can only be beaten by Valar since he is one! > > There's atleast 2 reasons why no guards were there: 1. It's extremely difficult and costly to support guards around a volcano that keeps erupting all the time, in the middle of a vast desert choked with deadly volcanic ash. 2. Sauron figured there was no reason to put guards there. Since Aragorn revealed himself to him with the Stone, Sauron was positive _he_ was using the Ring. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:27:40 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.16 X-Server-Date: 21 Aug 2001 15:24:31 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49172 Mike wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [about the lack of guards on Mount Doom] > There's atleast 2 reasons why no guards were there: > >1. It's extremely difficult and costly to support guards around a volcano >that keeps erupting all the time, in the middle of a vast desert choked with >deadly volcanic ash. I agree. >2. Sauron figured there was no reason to put guards there. Since Aragorn >revealed himself to him with the Stone, Sauron was positive _he_ was using >the Ring. I disagree. Sauron would have known if Aragorn began using the Ring in any significant way. (Remember how, even on Amon Hen, when all Frodo did was put it on and look around, Sauron knew immediately and nearly found him.) Sauron knew that _if_ anyone used the Ring, he (Sauron) would know right away; therefore if he was not aware of anyone using the Ring he knew that no one was. Perhaps two better reasons why Mount Doom itself was not guarded: 2a. To get to Mount Doom, anyone had to get through dozens of leagues of Sauron's army camps. 2b. From Sauron's point of view, why would anyone want to get to Mount Doom? What was there worth guarding? After all, no one in Middle-earth could have forged another Ring to challenge Sauron, and he simply couldn't imagine that anyone would want to destroy the One, let alone actually try to. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:42:21 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9lu6ju$ast$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p072.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998415807 11165 212.205.253.72 (21 Aug 2001 17:43:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:43:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49011 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.15ec47fa8ed12a4098c785@news.mindspring.com... > I disagree. > > Sauron would have known if Aragorn began using the Ring in any > significant way. (Remember how, even on Amon Hen, when all Frodo did > was put it on and look around, Sauron knew immediately and nearly > found him.) Sauron knew that _if_ anyone used the Ring, he (Sauron) > would know right away; therefore if he was not aware of anyone using > the Ring he knew that no one was. I think that's quite different - the Amon Hen was a special place and it seems quite clear to me that it because of that which Sauron became aware of Frodo. Don't you think that if it was otherwise he'd know when Sam later also used the Ring? Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9gvf7.9879$5t1.20458@nntpserver.swip.net> <9lnmu6$a8gkl$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:56:38 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 998440875 195.82.196.148 (Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:41:15 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:41:15 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!opentransit.net!kinglear.mobilixnet.dk!news1!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49002 "Stan Brown" skrev i en meddelelse news:MPG.15e98165ff5a088698c76d@news.mindspring.com... > In any event, the Letter didn't say "in usf like that where it was > made", or "in the sort of usf in which it was made"; it said "in THE > usf WHERE it was made." I think it's pretty plain that no other usf > will do, even if any were available. I'll agree with that. The fire of Mount Doom was more than just high temperature, that is atoms and molecules moving and vibrating vigorously. The lava of Mount Doom is described as flashing red and up to yellow. It is not inconceivable that the Dwarves or the Noldor could have built hotter fires than that. For one thing, Mount Doom was a place where Sauron's power ran strong, strong enough to subdue Galadriel's phial. This suggests that more than high temperatures were at work there. For another, the Ring was made there; it's a common enough motif that some powerful artifact can be unmade only where it was made. Hrafn. ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:35:52 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 998505245 195.82.196.65 (Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:34:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:34:05 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49259 "Mike" skrev i en meddelelse news:h_mg7.28$Bz.18835@news.aloha.net... [Mount Doom] > There's atleast 2 reasons why no guards were there: > 1. It's extremely difficult and costly to support guards around a > volcano that keeps erupting all the time, in the middle of a vast > desert choked with deadly volcanic ash. To Sauron, totally without scruples or pity, this would have presented no problem. He could spare an Orc for Shelob whenever she was hungry; he could have spared a few Orcs every day, if that were their average death-rate, posted on or near the volcano. He certainly could spare Orcs to repeatedly repair his road up the volcano's flank to Sammath Naur; the text mentions this explicitly. Send a few companies of Orcs up near the cone and the Sammath Naur, keep them watered and fed because as corpses they would have lost their usefulness, and don't care tuppence about their suffering in the harsh environment. Sauron had whips enough, and less unfortunate Orcs enough to crack them. > 2. Sauron figured there was no reason to put guards there. Since > Aragorn revealed himself to him with the Stone, Sauron was > positive _he_ was using the Ring. Sauron was not positive, though he suspected it. He probably suspected it strongly by the time Aragorn stood before the Morannon with an army, or perhaps was certain of it. What he did not suspect was that anyone, successfully penetrating his outer defences, could go to Mount Doom and accomplish anything against him. Raaf. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:30:46 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9lu6ju$ast$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.50 X-Server-Date: 22 Aug 2001 20:28:32 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49380 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I think that's quite different - the Amon Hen was a special place and it >seems quite clear to me that it because of that which Sauron became >aware of Frodo. > >Don't you think that if it was otherwise he'd know when Sam later also >used the Ring? He was busy with other things at the time; and Sam used it only briefly. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:30:05 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9m1md0$q2h$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <9lu6ju$ast$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b232.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 998530273 26705 212.205.219.232 (23 Aug 2001 01:31:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:31:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!golmote!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49250 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.15ede0805053bc8b98c79c@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I think that's quite different - the Amon Hen was a special place and it > >seems quite clear to me that it because of that which Sauron became > >aware of Frodo. > > > >Don't you think that if it was otherwise he'd know when Sam later also > >used the Ring? > > He was busy with other things at the time; and Sam used it only > briefly. Wore it for a far longer time than Frodo did - and as you said Sauron perceived Frodo almost immediately. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 23 Aug 2001 02:12:51 GMT References: <9m1md0$q2h$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Message-ID: <20010822221251.05484.00001807@nso-fc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49288 In article <9m1md0$q2h$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >Stan Brown wrote in message >news:MPG.15ede0805053bc8b98c79c@news.mindspring.com... >> Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >I think that's quite different - the Amon Hen was a special place and it >> >seems quite clear to me that it because of that which Sauron became >> >aware of Frodo. >> > >> >Don't you think that if it was otherwise he'd know when Sam later also >> >used the Ring? >> >> He was busy with other things at the time; and Sam used it only >> briefly. > >Wore it for a far longer time than Frodo did - and as you said Sauron >perceived Frodo almost immediately. > There was a crucial difference. Frodo *claimed* the Ring as his own. Sam simply passivly wore it. Russ ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:38:18 +1000 Organization: Chicken Killer Anonymous Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <9m1md0$q2h$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010822221251.05484.00001807@nso-fc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.30.2 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 998537890 24742 192.168.30.2 (23 Aug 2001 03:38:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 2001 03:38:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49343 In article <20010822221251.05484.00001807@nso-fc.aol.com>, Russ says... > In article <9m1md0$q2h$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" > writes: > > >Stan Brown wrote in message > >news:MPG.15ede0805053bc8b98c79c@news.mindspring.com... > >> Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >> >I think that's quite different - the Amon Hen was a special place and it > >> >seems quite clear to me that it because of that which Sauron became > >> >aware of Frodo. > >> > > >> >Don't you think that if it was otherwise he'd know when Sam later also > >> >used the Ring? > >> > >> He was busy with other things at the time; and Sam used it only > >> briefly. > > > >Wore it for a far longer time than Frodo did - and as you said Sauron > >perceived Frodo almost immediately. > > > > There was a crucial difference. Frodo *claimed* the Ring as his own. Sam > simply passivly wore it. Not on Amon Hen, which is what's being talked about here. -- Donald Shepherd Classic Opening Lines from the Lyttle Lytton Contest: "Monica had exploded, and I had a mystery, and pieces of her pancreas, on my hands." ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:50:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 998841048 12.79.23.161 (Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:50:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:50:48 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49620 "grimgard" wrote in message news:3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net... > Well, okay, then would it be fair to say that the only way in > Middle-earth to destroy the Ring was to cast it into Mount Doom? Yeah, probably a safe bet. I don't think Saruman or Celebrimbor could have pulled it off and there wasn't anyone else in their class. ###### Message-ID: <3B8A8770.38BC76E7@prodigy.net> From: grimgard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.198.133.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 998934512 4117541 64.198.133.219 (Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:48:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:48:32 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:48:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:49712 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > "grimgard" wrote in message > news:3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net... > > > Well, okay, then would it be fair to say that the only way in > > Middle-earth to destroy the Ring was to cast it into Mount Doom? > > Yeah, probably a safe bet. I don't think Saruman or Celebrimbor > could have pulled it off and there wasn't anyone else in their > class. Well, that's a relief anyway. I thought maybe there was some revolutionarty revelation in HoME about an angle that had been overlooked by Gandalf and Elrond and all the rest of the hoighty-toighty. grimgard ###### From: "Robert Shaw" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Morgoth replaced Sauron in LOTR? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:08:07 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9mg1r9$dih$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <9ldqa3$d7g$07$1@news.t-online.com> <3B7D7539.FD5E5C7A@prodigy.net> <9wtf7.14276$Ki1.1165164@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net> <3B8A8770.38BC76E7@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-254.norwegian-forest.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 999000745 13905 217.134.96.254 (28 Aug 2001 12:12:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:12:25 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:50009 "grimgard" wrote > > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > > > "grimgard" wrote in message > > news:3B816D39.4A20BD8D@prodigy.net... > > > > > Well, okay, then would it be fair to say that the only way in > > > Middle-earth to destroy the Ring was to cast it into Mount Doom? > > > > Yeah, probably a safe bet. I don't think Saruman or Celebrimbor > > could have pulled it off and there wasn't anyone else in their > > class. > > Well, that's a relief anyway. I thought maybe there was some > revolutionarty revelation in HoME about an angle that had been > overlooked by Gandalf and Elrond and all the rest of the > hoighty-toighty. If Galadriel had studied ringcraft she should have been able to rival Celebrimor, and may have been able to do as well as Feanor could have. She was among the greatest of the Noldor, both in wisdom and in strength and heer mirror is an achievement not far short of Feanor's palantiri. I wouldn't put much beyond her. However the very act of studying ringcraft would expose her to great temptation and they didn't have time to wait for her to find a method either. -- 'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett Robert Shaw