From: "Ari Rotonen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:37:10 +0300 Organization: SAUNALAHDEN asiakas Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> Reply-To: "Ari Rotonen" NNTP-Posting-Host: cs93194.pp.htv.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: tron.sci.fi 994779039 14199 212.90.93.194 (10 Jul 2001 15:30:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@saunalahti.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2001 15:30:39 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.netcologne.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!uutiset.saunalahti.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41524 Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? What do you think? -- Ari Rotonen ari.rotonen@helsinki.fi ###### Message-ID: <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> From: "Edward J. Kloczko" Reply-To: ejk@free.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:36:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.27.55.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net X-Trace: nnrp5.proxad.net 994782996 212.27.55.123 (Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:36:36 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:36:36 CEST Organization: Guest of ProXad - France Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!nnrp5.proxad.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42616 Ari Rotonen a écrit: > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > What do you think? > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. EJK ###### From: "John J" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:04:20 +0100 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3b4c9cc6_1@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.60.109.54 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.250.101.2 X-Trace: 11 Jul 2001 19:36:55 GMT, 10.250.101.2 X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42804 Could be - but 'Wetwang' is a real place in Yorkshire! -- John Jones Birmingham, England ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Ari Rotonen" wrote in message news:9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi... > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > What do you think? > > -- > Ari Rotonen > ari.rotonen@helsinki.fi > > > ###### From: "Swamp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:52:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.13.179.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.tx.home.com 994787522 65.13.179.104 (Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:52:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:52:02 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42284 "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... > Ari Rotonen a écrit: > > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > > What do you think? > > > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > > EJK He created his *real* languages from his study of real languages, so it seems very plausible that this could be so. We'll never know as he is dead and his writings never address this. Swamp ###### From: "Ari Rotonen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:01:42 +0300 Organization: SAUNALAHDEN asiakas Lines: 47 Message-ID: <9iffke$qbe$1@tron.sci.fi> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> Reply-To: "Ari Rotonen" NNTP-Posting-Host: cs93194.pp.htv.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tron.sci.fi 994787790 26990 212.90.93.194 (10 Jul 2001 17:56:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@saunalahti.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2001 17:56:30 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!uutiset.saunalahti.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41556 "Edward J. Kloczko" kirjoitti viestissä news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > > EJK I must disagree with you here. In an interview made in 1971 (http://www.cabed-en-aras.com/interview.html), Tolkien said that "... I always in writing start with a name. Give me a name and it produces a story, not the other way about normally.". From this I would conclude that Tolkien may have simply invented a name (although he often did create names from the words he created beforehand) and then created the necessary words (nin+talf) and their respective meanings. I do not think it is not really possible to say which came first, the name or the Sindarin words. Tolkien's creative process may well have worked in both directions - first inventing a name and then creating the necessary linguistic structures so that the word becomes "real", or creating a vocabulary and grammar and then place names from that. The following passage is from an article which quotes some of Tolkien's letters (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm). Again, Tolkien states that a name comes first and then the story follows, but he also mentions the creation of languages as the basis of writing Lord of the Rings: "The invention of languages is the foundation. The 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows... [LotR] is to me...largely an essay in 'linguistic aesthetic', as I sometimes say to people who ask me 'what is it all about?' " (Letters:219-220) Few people took this explanation seriously. "Nobody believes me when I say that my long book is an attempt to create a world in which a form of language agreeable to my personal aesthetic might seem real," Tolkien complained. "But it is true." - Letters:264. While I would not claim that the Nindalf - Finland connection is entirely plausible - after all, as far as I know Tolkien did not resort to anagrams anywhere on purpose - it still remains an intriguing possibility. Ari Rotonen ari.rotonen@helsinki.fi ###### From: urban@panix.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:28:11 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9ifhfr$5c7$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 994789692 4298 166.84.0.228 (10 Jul 2001 18:28:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2001 18:28:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41826 In article <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr>, Edward J. Kloczko wrote: >Ari Rotonen a écrit: >> >> Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do >> not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden >> messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to >> me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name >> for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology >> of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term >> 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is >> a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin >> nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random >> connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? >> What do you think? >> > >Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created >"real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of >word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > So you really believe that the homonymy of "Orthanc" as "Mount Fang" in Sindarin and "Craft, cunning mind" in Old English is just a happenstance? How do you feel about Atlantis/Atalante? I don't recall any other instances of Tolkien using anagrams for this sort of wordplay, but he was in no way averse to this sort of linguistic game. ###### From: Nicolas Masson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:07:50 +0200 Organization: Club-Internet (France) Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3B4B6EA6.BEF53D01@club-internet.fr> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <9ifhfr$5c7$1@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nas6-119.wln.club-internet.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: front4.grolier.fr 994798832 6804 213.44.60.119 (10 Jul 2001 21:00:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2001 21:00:32 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: fr Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!club-internet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42851 Michael Urban a écrit : > > In article <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr>, Edward J. Kloczko wrote: > >Ari Rotonen a écrit: > >> > >> Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > >> not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > >> messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > >> me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > >> for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > >> of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > >> 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > >> a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > >> nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > >> connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > >> What do you think? > >> > > > >Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created > >"real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of > >word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > > > > So you really believe that the homonymy of "Orthanc" as "Mount Fang" > in Sindarin and "Craft, cunning mind" in Old English is just a > happenstance? How do you feel about Atlantis/Atalante? And "Sahora = the south" in BoLT... Anyway, I believe Nindalf/Finland is no more than a coincidence. A lot of other Tolkien invented words must be anagrams of "real life" words, by mere chance. -- Nicolas Masson ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:38:44 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.46 X-Server-Date: 10 Jul 2001 22:39:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42586 It seems Ari Rotonen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? [...] >[Tolkien knew that] the Finnish name >for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology >of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term >'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is >a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin >nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random >connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? We can's know for sure, but I think your theory is quite plausible. I don't believe I've ever seen it before, either! We know, because he said so in the /Letters/, that Tolkien sometimes had a name pop into his head and then wrote a story around it. Sometimes he would then invent etymologies after the fact so as to fit the new name into the corpus of his languages. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 01:51:23 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9ig153$2jt$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p238.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 994805732 2685 212.205.253.238 (10 Jul 2001 22:55:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:55:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41813 Ari Rotonen wrote in message news:9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi... > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > me. The names don't sound so similar to me. There's an "i" in there, and there's also an "a" and the number of the syllables is the same. But "nin" sounds different than "fin", and "dalf" sounds even more different than "land". And though Tolkien could have played with sounds and meanings, I don't think he ever played with anagrams. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Swamp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <9ig153$2jt$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 03:06:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.13.179.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.tx.home.com 994820765 65.13.179.104 (Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:06:05 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:06:05 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42326 > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > > me. > > The names don't sound so similar to me. There's an "i" in there, and > there's also an "a" and the number of the syllables is the same. > > But "nin" sounds different than "fin", and "dalf" sounds even more different > than "land". And though Tolkien could have played with sounds and meanings, > I don't think he ever played with anagrams. > > Aris Katsaris An anagram is a word jumble, not a word that sounds the same. dieter=retied war=raw and so on Swamp ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:03:36 +0300 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9ih0nv$h2b$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <9ig153$2jt$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-18.di.uoa.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 994838079 17483 195.134.66.218 (11 Jul 2001 07:54:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2001 07:54:39 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42114 "Swamp" wrote in message news:xoP27.19729$EW.70282@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com... > > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > > > me. > > > > The names don't sound so similar to me. There's an "i" in there, and > > there's also an "a" and the number of the syllables is the same. > > > > But "nin" sounds different than "fin", and "dalf" sounds even more > different > > than "land". And though Tolkien could have played with sounds and > meanings, > > I don't think he ever played with anagrams. > > > > Aris Katsaris > > An anagram is a word jumble, not a word that sounds the same. > dieter=retied > war=raw > and so on That's exactly why I say that Tolkien played with sounds, but has never played with anagrams. Because I *know* the two are different. Aris Katsaris ###### Message-ID: <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> From: "Edward J. Kloczko" Reply-To: ejk@free.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 41 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:41:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.27.55.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net X-Trace: nnrp3.proxad.net 994862495 212.27.55.122 (Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:41:35 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:41:35 CEST Organization: Guest of ProXad - France Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!nerim.net!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!nnrp3.proxad.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42992 Swamp a écrit: > > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message > news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... > > Ari Rotonen a écrit: > > > > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > > > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > > > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > > > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > > > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > > > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > > > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > > > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien > created > > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type > of > > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > > > > EJK > > He created his *real* languages from his study of real languages, so it > seems very plausible that this could be so. > > We'll never know as he is dead and his writings never address this. Sorry, but we know the facts and you should too! It is very simple to know how and when Tolkien created the name Nindalf,e.g. by reading Tolkien's mss of LOTR published many years ago by Christopher Tolkien. In these books he describes how Nindalf (and almsot all the other toponyms) was created by JRRT. Regarding Elvish names, *never* was any wordplay involving our "real" languages. EJK ###### From: lukkonen@cc.hut.fi (Lasse Ukkonen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: 11 Jul 2001 07:45:48 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.119.253.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 994862749 27216 127.0.0.1 (11 Jul 2001 14:45:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:45:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42983 "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. Really? I have read that Tolkien studied Finnish and liked the _sound_ of it. Therefore he used Finnish as a phonological source for Quenya and Quenya should sound like Finnish if spoken properly. However, there is no grammatic connection. Lasse Ukkonen ###### Message-ID: <3B4C767F.47C4A36D@free.fr> From: "Edward J. Kloczko" Reply-To: ejk@free.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 60 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:52:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.27.55.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net X-Trace: nnrp3.proxad.net 994863121 212.27.55.122 (Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:52:01 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:52:01 CEST Organization: Guest of ProXad - France Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!nnrp3.proxad.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42995 Edward J. Kloczko a écrit: > > Swamp a écrit: > > > > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message > > news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... > > > Ari Rotonen a écrit: > > > > > > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > > > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > > > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > > > > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > > > > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > > > > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > > > > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > > > > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > > > > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > > > > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien > > created > > > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type > > of > > > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > > > > > > EJK > > > > He created his *real* languages from his study of real languages, so it > > seems very plausible that this could be so. > > > > We'll never know as he is dead and his writings never address this. > > Sorry, but we know the facts and you should too! > > It is very simple to know how and when Tolkien created the name Nindalf,e.g. > by reading Tolkien's mss of LOTR published many years ago by Christopher > Tolkien. In these books he describes how Nindalf (and almsot all the other > toponyms) was created by JRRT. > Regarding Elvish names, *never* was any wordplay involving our "real" languages. With I should add excatly *4* exceptions : Orthanc, Atalante, Wingelot and Earendel/Earendil. That's not much it considered the 1000 toponyms T created. [I do not speak about simple Elvish words, some of which were taken as "loanwords" into his languages]. And Tolkien wrote (Letters p. p. 380) : « It is […] idle to compare chance-similiarities between names made from ‘Elvish Tongues’ and words in exterior ‘real’ languages, especially if this is supposed to have any bearing on the meaning or ideas in my story ». That's clear enough I guess. There is absolutly no internal relation between Finland and Nindalf. And no external relation either, since T. created the name Nindalf without any references to that Land according to his published mss. EJK ###### Message-ID: <3B4C77B0.230F4A83@free.fr> From: "Edward J. Kloczko" Reply-To: ejk@free.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:57:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.27.55.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net X-Trace: nnrp3.proxad.net 994863425 212.27.55.122 (Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:57:05 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:57:05 CEST Organization: Guest of ProXad - France Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!nnrp3.proxad.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42991 Lasse Ukkonen a écrit: > > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message > > > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien created > > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type of > > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > > Really? I have read that Tolkien studied Finnish and liked the _sound_ of it. > Therefore he used Finnish as a phonological source for Quenya and Quenya should > sound like Finnish if spoken properly. However, there is no grammatic > connection. > Yes, he did study Finnish. But we're here talking about the _place-name_ Finland and Nindalf. Not the languges spoken in Finland or Me. Nindalf is Sindarin, not Quenya. Sindarin was "inpired" by Welsh. EJK ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:58:27 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9ihpij$d96$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 994863507 13606 128.214.205.27 (11 Jul 2001 14:58:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:58:27 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42938 In alt.fan.tolkien Edward J. Kloczko wrote: > Sorry, but we know the facts and you should too! > It is very simple to know how and when Tolkien created the name Nindalf,e.g. > by reading Tolkien's mss of LOTR published many years ago by Christopher > Tolkien. In these books he describes how Nindalf (and almsot all the other > toponyms) was created by JRRT. > Regarding Elvish names, *never* was any wordplay involving our "real" languages. Uinen (I might be swimming) Ulmo (Ulappa, outer sea) ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Message-ID: References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <9ifhfr$5c7$1@panix3.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:04:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 994889092 208.170.95.143 (Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:04:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:04:52 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:43003 In article <9ifhfr$5c7$1@panix3.panix.com>, urban@panix.com (Michael Urban) wrote: > In article <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr>, Edward J. Kloczko wrote: > >Ari Rotonen a écrit: > >> > >> Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? Nindalf obviously _is_ an anagram of Finland; but I share with the other respondents the doubt about whether it's intended to be read as such. Outside the wetness, there's little to connect the small southern region of Nindalf with the much larger northern area of Finland. And Tolkien did have northern peoples (like the Haladin) who might be more reasonably compared with the ancient Finns. Nindalf was intended to be a compound of nîn "wet" and talf "low, flat field"; hence the translation "Wetwang". DS ###### From: quendeatani@yahoo.com (quendeatan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:23:03 GMT Lines: 86 Message-ID: <3b4ea435.9032047@news.erols.com> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> <3B4C767F.47C4A36D@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbDOcoofQvdmZHAWcr8KQgs+ew7U72H4cjJBVxEVPg3/2561io9XnKi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2001 13:23:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42829 On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:52:01 GMT, "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote: >Edward J. Kloczko a écrit: >> >> Swamp a écrit: >> > >> > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message >> > news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... >> > > Ari Rotonen a écrit: >> > > > >> > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do >> > > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden >> > > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to >> > > > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name >> > > > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology >> > > > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term >> > > > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is >> > > > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin >> > > > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random >> > > > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? >> > > > What do you think? >> > > > >> > > >> > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien >> > created >> > > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type >> > of >> > > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. >> > > >> > > EJK >> > >> > He created his *real* languages from his study of real languages, so it >> > seems very plausible that this could be so. >> > >> > We'll never know as he is dead and his writings never address this. >> >> Sorry, but we know the facts and you should too! >> >> It is very simple to know how and when Tolkien created the name Nindalf,e.g. >> by reading Tolkien's mss of LOTR published many years ago by Christopher >> Tolkien. In these books he describes how Nindalf (and almsot all the other >> toponyms) was created by JRRT. >> Regarding Elvish names, *never* was any wordplay involving our "real" languages. > >With I should add excatly *4* exceptions : Orthanc, Atalante, Wingelot and Earendel/Earendil. > >That's not much it considered the 1000 toponyms T created. [I do not speak >about simple Elvish words, some of which were taken as "loanwords" into his languages]. > >And Tolkien wrote (Letters p. p. 380) : > >« It is […] idle to compare chance-similiarities between names made from >‘Elvish Tongues’ and words in exterior ‘real’ languages, especially if this is >supposed to have any bearing on the meaning or ideas in my story ». > >That's clear enough I guess. > >There is absolutly no internal relation between Finland and Nindalf. And no >external relation either, since T. created the name Nindalf without any >references to that Land according to his published mss. > >EJK I think it is a good observation. I have posted this before, but see below. Tolkien names and places that are found/based in Old English. Isen (as in Isengard) - Iron Eorl (as in Eorl the Young of Rohan) - Nobleman Deogol (as in Deagol) - Secret Beran (as in Beren) - Bear Mearc (as in the Mark) - Border, Boundary Lond (as in Forlond?) - Country Fealu (as in Felagund) - dark Burg (as in HornBurg) - Enclosure, stronghold, town Hiw (as in Thiw the Tengwar) - form, shape Dun (as in Dunland) - hill Holen (as in Hollin) - Holly tree Orþonc (as in Orthanc) - Intelligence Goldwine (as in ??? just interesting) - Lord Beorn - man, soldier, warrior Mundbyrd (as in Mundburg) - Protection Quendeatan ###### Message-ID: <3B4DC4C2.E0310EDF@free.fr> From: "Edward J. Kloczko" Reply-To: ejk@free.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> <3B4C767F.47C4A36D@free.fr> <3b4ea435.9032047@news.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 105 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:38:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.228.22.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net X-Trace: nnrp3.proxad.net 994948695 213.228.22.195 (Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:38:15 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:38:15 CEST Organization: Guest of ProXad - France Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!nnrp3.proxad.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42997 quendeatan a écrit: > > On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:52:01 GMT, "Edward J. Kloczko" > wrote: > > >Edward J. Kloczko a écrit: > >> > >> Swamp a écrit: > >> > > >> > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message > >> > news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... > >> > > Ari Rotonen a écrit: > >> > > > > >> > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do > >> > > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden > >> > > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to > >> > > > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name > >> > > > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology > >> > > > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term > >> > > > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is > >> > > > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin > >> > > > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random > >> > > > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? > >> > > > What do you think? > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien > >> > created > >> > > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type > >> > of > >> > > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. > >> > > > >> > > EJK > >> > > >> > He created his *real* languages from his study of real languages, so it > >> > seems very plausible that this could be so. > >> > > >> > We'll never know as he is dead and his writings never address this. > >> > >> Sorry, but we know the facts and you should too! > >> > >> It is very simple to know how and when Tolkien created the name Nindalf,e.g. > >> by reading Tolkien's mss of LOTR published many years ago by Christopher > >> Tolkien. In these books he describes how Nindalf (and almsot all the other > >> toponyms) was created by JRRT. > >> Regarding Elvish names, *never* was any wordplay involving our "real" languages. > > > >With I should add excatly *4* exceptions : Orthanc, Atalante, Wingelot and Earendel/Earendil. > > > >That's not much it considered the 1000 toponyms T created. [I do not speak > >about simple Elvish words, some of which were taken as "loanwords" into his languages]. > > > >And Tolkien wrote (Letters p. p. 380) : > > > >« It is […] idle to compare chance-similiarities between names made from > >‘Elvish Tongues’ and words in exterior ‘real’ languages, especially if this is > >supposed to have any bearing on the meaning or ideas in my story ». > > > >That's clear enough I guess. > > > >There is absolutly no internal relation between Finland and Nindalf. And no > >external relation either, since T. created the name Nindalf without any > >references to that Land according to his published mss. > > > >EJK > > I think it is a good observation. I have posted this before, but see > below. > > Tolkien names and places that are found/based in Old English. > > Isen (as in Isengard) - Iron > Eorl (as in Eorl the Young of Rohan) - Nobleman > Deogol (as in Deagol) - Secret > Beran (as in Beren) - Bear > Mearc (as in the Mark) - Border, Boundary > Lond (as in Forlond?) - Country > Fealu (as in Felagund) - dark > Burg (as in HornBurg) - Enclosure, stronghold, town > Hiw (as in Thiw the Tengwar) - form, shape > Dun (as in Dunland) - hill > Holen (as in Hollin) - Holly tree > Orþonc (as in Orthanc) - Intelligence > Goldwine (as in ??? just interesting) - Lord > Beorn - man, soldier, warrior > Mundbyrd (as in Mundburg) - Protection Thank you to let us knwo tha Old English is a "real" language and that Tolkien uses it in LOTR (and other places too). He was a teacher of Old English at Oxford, that was his job for many years. And you made some mistakes. The names : Beren, Felagund, Tîw and Tengwar are ELVISH not Old English. The rest of the names you cite are OLD ENGLISH indeed and are USED ON PURPUSE by Tolkien as Old English. He explains it in Appendix F of LOTR why he did so. The Man _created_ sevral languages, and there are from time to time chance simiralities between these and others tongues as it happends all the time in many places and affair. But since Tolkien used REAL LANGUAGES and languages he made up at the same time in LOTR, people tend to be mixed up. Namárie EJK ###### From: quendeatani@yahoo.com (quendeatan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:57:56 GMT Lines: 116 Message-ID: <3b4fba37.14666379@news.erols.com> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> <3B4C767F.47C4A36D@free.fr> <3b4ea435.9032047@news.erols.com> <3B4DC4C2.E0310EDF@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYRQwlquL3JX+gI1my0VOk/z8IP0wztZHe1Ov35E8r+PXt97FWkRib/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2001 14:58:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42838 On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:38:15 GMT, "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote: >quendeatan a écrit: >> >> On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:52:01 GMT, "Edward J. Kloczko" >> wrote: >> >> >Edward J. Kloczko a écrit: >> >> >> >> Swamp a écrit: >> >> > >> >> > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote in message >> >> > news:3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr... >> >> > > Ari Rotonen a écrit: >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Could it be that the place name Nindalf is an anagram of Finland? I do >> >> > > > not know whether Tolkien was into anagrams or other types of hidden >> >> > > > messages, but the Nindalf - Finland connection seems quite plausible to >> >> > > > me. Tolkien studied Finnish, and must have known that the Finnish name >> >> > > > for Finland is Suomi. There are a number of theories on the ethymology >> >> > > > of 'Suomi', one of which claims that the name is derived from the term >> >> > > > 'suomaa', which means marsh-land or land of the marshes. Now, Nindalf is >> >> > > > a marshy area and even if the name is disassembled into Sindarin >> >> > > > nen+talf I still feel that there must be more than just a random >> >> > > > connection between Nindalf and Finland. Subliminal influence perhaps? >> >> > > > What do you think? >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Nindalf is a sindarin word [e.g. it has a meaning of its own. Tolkien >> >> > created >> >> > > "real" languages.] and is *not* related in any way (anagram or other type >> >> > of >> >> > > word play or subliminal or any other way) to Finland. >> >> > > >> >> > > EJK >> >> > >> >> > He created his *real* languages from his study of real languages, so it >> >> > seems very plausible that this could be so. >> >> > >> >> > We'll never know as he is dead and his writings never address this. >> >> >> >> Sorry, but we know the facts and you should too! >> >> >> >> It is very simple to know how and when Tolkien created the name Nindalf,e.g. >> >> by reading Tolkien's mss of LOTR published many years ago by Christopher >> >> Tolkien. In these books he describes how Nindalf (and almsot all the other >> >> toponyms) was created by JRRT. >> >> Regarding Elvish names, *never* was any wordplay involving our "real" languages. >> > >> >With I should add excatly *4* exceptions : Orthanc, Atalante, Wingelot and Earendel/Earendil. >> > >> >That's not much it considered the 1000 toponyms T created. [I do not speak >> >about simple Elvish words, some of which were taken as "loanwords" into his languages]. >> > >> >And Tolkien wrote (Letters p. p. 380) : >> > >> >« It is […] idle to compare chance-similiarities between names made from >> >‘Elvish Tongues’ and words in exterior ‘real’ languages, especially if this is >> >supposed to have any bearing on the meaning or ideas in my story ». >> > >> >That's clear enough I guess. >> > >> >There is absolutly no internal relation between Finland and Nindalf. And no >> >external relation either, since T. created the name Nindalf without any >> >references to that Land according to his published mss. >> > >> >EJK >> >> I think it is a good observation. I have posted this before, but see >> below. >> >> Tolkien names and places that are found/based in Old English. >> >> Isen (as in Isengard) - Iron >> Eorl (as in Eorl the Young of Rohan) - Nobleman >> Deogol (as in Deagol) - Secret >> Beran (as in Beren) - Bear >> Mearc (as in the Mark) - Border, Boundary >> Lond (as in Forlond?) - Country >> Fealu (as in Felagund) - dark >> Burg (as in HornBurg) - Enclosure, stronghold, town >> Hiw (as in Thiw the Tengwar) - form, shape >> Dun (as in Dunland) - hill >> Holen (as in Hollin) - Holly tree >> Orþonc (as in Orthanc) - Intelligence >> Goldwine (as in ??? just interesting) - Lord >> Beorn - man, soldier, warrior >> Mundbyrd (as in Mundburg) - Protection > >Thank you to let us knwo tha Old English is a "real" language and that Tolkien >uses it in LOTR (and other places too). He was a teacher of Old English at >Oxford, that was his job for many years. > >And you made some mistakes. The names : Beren, Felagund, Tîw and Tengwar are >ELVISH not Old English. Right. The list is a representation of ANY type of name/place name in Middle Earth in relation to possible Old English words, or word relations. And yes we all know Tolkien was a professor. Q > >The rest of the names you cite are OLD ENGLISH indeed and are USED ON PURPUSE >by Tolkien as Old English. He explains it in Appendix F of LOTR why he did so. > >The Man _created_ sevral languages, and there are from time to time chance >simiralities between these and others tongues as it happends all the time in >many places and affair. But since Tolkien used REAL LANGUAGES and languages he >made up at the same time in LOTR, people tend to be mixed up. > >Namárie > >EJK ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:27:47 -0400 Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3B4E86D0.CE832116@erols.com> References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> <3B4C767F.47C4A36D@free.fr> <3b4ea435.9032047@news.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYFeqzlJEnbuY+jAb5WRmDrdb7pDfAtUylD4Mk20nrNQjuAjGK80p+M X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2001 05:22:32 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:43020 quendeatan wrote: > > Tolkien names and places that are found/based in Old English. > > Isen (as in Isengard) - Iron > Eorl (as in Eorl the Young of Rohan) - Nobleman > Deogol (as in Deagol) - Secret > Mearc (as in the Mark) - Border, Boundary > Burg (as in HornBurg) - Enclosure, stronghold, town > Dun (as in Dunland) - hill > Beorn - man, soldier, warrior > Mundbyrd (as in Mundburg) - Protection > Holen (as in Hollin) - Holly tree > > Goldwine (as in ??? just interesting) - Lord These names were all "translated" by Tolkien from early Atanic languages (Proto-Westron, spoken by the houses of Beor and Hador) and represented in the book by Old English and other Germanic roots. Indeed, as the Hobbits speak Westron "translated" into English, the Rohirrim and other Northern men speak impeccable Old English among themselves, at least as translated. Thus an Eorling would know exactly what Gollum's name meant, and the rest would have fairly literal connotations also. But Tolkien did make us work to realise this was all constructed in a story-internal fashion to make us feel more familiar with Middle Earth! > Beran (as in Beren) - Bear > Lond (as in Forlond?) - Country > Fealu (as in Felagund) - dark > Hiw (as in Thiw the Tengwar) - form, shape > Orþonc (as in Orthanc) - Intelligence Tolkien DID say that there might be some chance similarities in Elvish place names, I think he often did choose combinations of roots that "sounded" right and that "coincedentally" had the right connotations for the reader. But it might have been only a semi-conscious process that he reflected on only later? -Ber ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Nindalf - an anagram of Finland? Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:50:20 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <9if72v$drn$1@tron.sci.fi> <3B4B3D97.1C8CBCB6@free.fr> <6hH27.18983$EW.62543@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com> <3B4C7411.36EE1F67@free.fr> <3B4C767F.47C4A36D@free.fr> <3b4ea435.9032047@news.erols.com> <3B4E86D0.CE832116@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: houkdhcp244.chem.ucla.edu X-Trace: persian.noc.ucla.edu 995050197 19842 169.232.140.244 (13 Jul 2001 18:49:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:49:57 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!houkdhcp244.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:43225 Nindalf, Nindalf, Nindalf, The country where I quite want to be, Lonely Mountain so lofty, The Ents are so tall. Nindalf, Nindalf, Nindalf. Nindalf has it all. You're so near to the Shire, So far from Mordor, Quite a long way from Harad, Lots of miles from Gondor. Nindalf, Nindalf, Nindalf, The country where I want to be, Eating breakfast or dinner, Or snack lunch in the hall. Or a bit of a sandwich after tea, Or a light bedtime snack, Or just filling up the corners after supper, Or with a nice quiet brunch, Or generally snacking in the afternoon, Or over a pint at the pub, Or nibbling on some mushrooms, Or just generally pigging out, Nindalf has it all. By Fatty Bolger