From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Escapism Message-ID: References: <3B40E7EF.15E03EC6@erols.com> <3B43F90A.AED03293@erols.com> <3B450CC6.828AE7D1@erols.com> <9i35u3$ddo$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9i3igl$nj6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b4762d2.1446188@enews.newsguy.com> <440cfbb8.0107080624.1668b2ff@posting.google.com> <3b48aabb.85403717@enews.newsguy.com> <9id4g4$gk4$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 41 Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 21:59:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 994715941 208.170.95.45 (Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:59:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:59:01 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:42659 In article <9id4g4$gk4$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > I may be wrong but I get the feeling that if one wants to escape our world, > then they show little interest in actually *improving* it. To use a book so > as to > "escape" our world, seems to mean they don't understand they can't. Reality > is reality is reality. I can certainly understand and have compassion for > people tortured or abused who may prefer to escape from our world rather > than face it. But this "escape" is not a good thing. Any more than Miriel's > death was, because she was too tired. > > To see one's world as a jail, means to fail to see it as an opportunity. "I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which "Escape" is now so often used: a tone for which the uses of the word outside literary criticism give no warrant at all. In what the misusers are fond of calling Real Life, Escape is evidently as a rule very practical, and may even be heroic. In real life it is difficult to blame it, unless it fails; in criticism it would seem to be the worse the better it succeeds. Evidently we are faced by a misuse of words, and also by a confusion of thought. Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using Escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter. Just so a Party-spokesman might have labelled departure from the misery of the Führer's or any other Reich and even criticism of it as treachery. In the same way these critics, to make confusion worse, and so to bring into contempt their opponents, stick their label of scorn not only on to Desertion, but on to real Escape, and what are often its companions, Disgust, Anger, Condemnation, and Revolt. Not only do they confound the escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter; but they would seem to prefer the acquiescence of the "quisling" to the resistance of the patriot. To such thinking you have only to say "the land you loved is doomed" to excuse any treachery, indeed to glorify it." J.R.R. Tolkien, "On Fairy Stories". ###### From: Finrod Felagund Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Escapism Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:37:32 -0400 Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3B40E7EF.15E03EC6@erols.com> <3B43F90A.AED03293@erols.com> <3B450CC6.828AE7D1@erols.com> <9i35u3$ddo$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9i3igl$nj6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b4762d2.1446188@enews.newsguy.com> <440cfbb8.0107080624.1668b2ff@posting.google.com> <3b48aabb.85403717@enews.newsguy.com> <9id4g4$gk4$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: aca55c61.ipt.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AUTHid: pavlikad User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41785 On 7/9/01 5:59 PM, in article dsalo-ya02408000R0907011705210001@news.terracom.net, "David Salo" wrote: >> I may be wrong but I get the feeling that if one wants to escape our world, >> then they show little interest in actually *improving* it. To use a book so >> as to >> "escape" our world, seems to mean they don't understand they can't. Reality >> is reality is reality. I can certainly understand and have compassion for >> people tortured or abused who may prefer to escape from our world rather >> than face it. But this "escape" is not a good thing. Any more than Miriel's >> death was, because she was too tired. >> >> To see one's world as a jail, means to fail to see it as an opportunity. > > "I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of > fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do > not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which "Escape" is now so often > used: a tone for which the uses of the word outside literary criticism give > no warrant at all. In what the misusers are fond of calling Real Life, > Escape is evidently as a rule very practical, and may even be heroic. In > real life it is difficult to blame it, unless it fails; in criticism it > would seem to be the worse the better it succeeds. Evidently we are faced > by a misuse of words, and also by a confusion of thought. Why should a man > be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? > Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than > jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real > because the prisoner cannot see it. In using Escape in this way the > critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, > not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of > the Deserter. Just so a Party-spokesman might have labelled departure from > the misery of the Führer's or any other Reich and even criticism of it as > treachery. In the same way these critics, to make confusion worse, and so > to bring into contempt their opponents, stick their label of scorn not only > on to Desertion, but on to real Escape, and what are often its companions, > Disgust, Anger, Condemnation, and Revolt. Not only do they confound the > escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter; but they would seem > to prefer the acquiescence of the "quisling" to the resistance of the > patriot. To such thinking you have only to say "the land you loved is > doomed" to excuse any treachery, indeed to glorify it." Amen. I guess I'll have to read that sometime. Thank you David. I had alluded to this concept earlier in this discussion but not having read the good Professor's own words on it, I was a bit short for words. He puts it better than I.