Message-ID: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The gift Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 05:58:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992757521 24.0.190.76 (Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:58:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:58:41 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39850 It strikes me as a bit odd that: 1. Two different characters (Arwen and Luthien) are allowed the gift of men even though they are elves. In fact, it's clear that becoming mortal isn't a gift at all. I can't think of a clear case where men were allowed the gift of elves. 2. If orcs are distorted elves, do they go to the halls of Mandos? 3. Why only the two children of Eru, when there are many different sentient races including: elves, men, dwarves, ents, eagles, dragons, trolls(?), orcs, etc. 4. Why did not other couplings undocumented take place between elves and men? Why only the three documented cases? 5. How did Melian bear children and if this was possible, why did it not occur more often, especially with evil Maia coupling with elves and men? 6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? 7. Why did the Valar protect the elves from Morgoth but throw men to essentially their own devices when dealing with Sauron? 8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special treatment for the elves just because their gift is different? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 126 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 992763463 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:37:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:37:43 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: b7ZW6-24879-lw4-9105@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 87cf3c50 4050a9d0 1de33641 6b3813e8 5b84bf8e Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:37:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.135.12.170.MISMATCH!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39811 Quoth Michael Lodman in article <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com>: > 1. Two different characters (Arwen and Luthien) are allowed the gift > of men even though they are elves. In fact, it's clear that becoming > mortal isn't a gift at all. I can't think of a clear case where men > were allowed the gift of elves. Why is it clear that mortality isn't a gift? The Elves lived for ages and ages in the world, seeing almost everything that they cared for pass away. It was so depressing that most of them couldn't stand it, and had to leave the world that theyloved to pass over the sea to a borrowed homeland where they could find some measure of contentment. On top of that, the Elves had no clear assurance that their "souls" would last beyond the end of Middle-earth itself (and hints that they wouldn't), while mortal humans were to have a part in the Second Music and be truly immortal, even beyond the end of the world. You're right, though, that there's no clear example of humans being given the Elves' fate. (I don't recall hearing it referred to as a "gift", though.) Tuor is the only likely candidate that I can think of, and that's not absolutely certain. Perhaps Eru thought it cruel to take away the Gift of Men. > 2. If orcs are distorted elves, do they go to the halls of Mandos? We've wondered that, too. Of course, Tolkien never clearly decided that Orcs _were_ distorted Elves, so it's a very open question. I think many believe that if Orcs _did_ go to Mandos, they must have had their own halls there that the Elves never saw. Alternately, the Orcs may have refused to go to Mandos and instead obeyed a counter-summons to Morgoth (or possibly in later ages to Sauron). > 3. Why only the two children of Eru, when there are many different > sentient races including: elves, men, dwarves, ents, eagles, > dragons, trolls(?), orcs, etc. Originally, I think the term simply referred to the fact that none of the Ainur had a hand in the design or actions of the Children of Iluvatar in the Music, so on that level only the humans and Elves could really count. I myself have generally thought of the Dwarves as "Adopted Children of Iluvatar". :) As for the others, we really don't know much about their basic natures, either; some or all of them may not have been truly sentient (Tolkien even contemplated this for the Orcs, though the notion is hard to support), and it's not really clear that they _weren't_ spirits sent by Eru in any case. > 4. Why did not other couplings undocumented take place between elves and > men? Why only the three documented cases? There were definitely other couplings between Elves and Men: consider the Elvish blood that Legolas sees in Imrahil, for example. The number three actually refers to couplings between the _Eldar_ and human beings, as I recall; the Eldar may have had tighter societal standards and a more closed community than their eastern cousins. > 5. How did Melian bear children and if this was possible, why did it > not occur more often, especially with evil Maia coupling with elves > and men? Yet another explanation for Orcs that Tolkien considered was that some Orcs were in fact lesser Maiar that took on Orcish form. I don't recall off the top of my head how far Tolkien himself went in this direction, but it's possible that those Maia-Orcs were the ancestors of the whole Orcish race (probably with some Elvish and/or human blood thrown in from the start). In the essay "Osanwe-kenta", Tolkien explains that when the Ainur used physical bodies for purposes directly connected to that physical form, they could become increasingly bound to those bodies on a permanant basis (something like an addiction, I think). Things like speech or travel would not cause such binding (not being purely physical in nature), but things like eating, drinking, physical violence, and above all "begetting" (as Tolkien called it) would make an Ainu's physical body permanant. Given that, Melian may have paid a serious price for her love of Thingol and for bearing Luthien, and it may come as no surprise that few other Ainur were willing to make that sacrifice. > 6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? Elves and Men, certainly. Hobbits, being a sub-branch of the human race, could presumably interbreed with Elves and Men as well, although there were clearly societal barriers to such unions (and quite possibly physiological ones as well). Dwarves, in my opinion at least, probably could _not_ interbreed with the other races: Aule made them with only a rough idea of the Children of Iluvatar in mind, and it seems unlikely that he could have come close enough to make such things possible (all that breeding business was Yavanna's problem, anyway, not Aule's :) ). As for Orcs, I suppose it would depend on the actual origin of Orcs. If they were indeed bred from Elves and Men, then the answer would seem to be a clear "yes", although quite a few differences introduced over the years may have made such interbreeding less possible. (An Elven woman would presumably never willingly copulate with an Orc, and Tolkien said that Elven women would actually die if they were about to be raped.) > 7. Why did the Valar protect the elves from Morgoth but throw men to > essentially their own devices when dealing with Sauron? Why, for that matter, did they throw Men to entirely their own devices when dealing with Morgoth? That's the real question, I think: Mankind had its "fall" in its earliest history, and the Valar never seem to have even noticed. As for why they left the Men _and_ Elves alone to deal with Sauron, I think it was basically because they'd had too many bad experiences with shattering the world when they became directly involved in a contest pitting Ainur against Ainur. Better to just send indirect help, they decided... and perhaps they felt it was high time that the Children of Iluvatar learned to confront challenges on their own. > 8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special > treatment for the elves just because their gift is different? That's a good question. In part, I think it's because (as Tolkien says in some places) mortals who went to Valinor would actually age and pass away _faster_ when they were there. In part, the Valar may have regretted bringing the Elves West in the first place. I'm not sure what the final reason for forbidding Men was, though. On the other hand, allowing the Elves in was almost a necessity: as I said earlier, the Elves became increasingly miserable in Middle-earth as the swiftness of change in mortal lands stole away the things that were dear to them. Only in Valinor was the pace of change and decay slow enough that the Elves could feel comfortable. Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:12:03 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 100 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.53 X-Server-Date: 17 Jun 2001 15:10:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39842 It seems Michael Lodman wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >It strikes me as a bit odd that: > >1. Two different characters (Arwen and Luthien) are allowed the gift of men >even though they are elves. In fact, it's clear that becoming mortal isn't >a gift at all. I can't think of a clear case where men were allowed the >gift of elves. Arwen was not an Elf, she was a "Peredhil", half-Elven. (Actually she was about three-quarters Elf, but still she was part human through her father Elrond, who was 50% human.) Her destiny was not a special case, but was part and parcel of her father's. You're right that Lúthien was a special case. Alone of the Elves, she became mortal and then truly died. Since she was 50% Ainu that was even more extraordinary than if she'd 100% Elf. >4. Why did not other couplings undocumented take place between elves and >men? Why only the three documented cases? Because unusual occurrences are ... unusual? :-) Both Elves and Men would have discouraged their own kind from such unions. The most obvious disadvantage is that one member of the pair would age swiftly while the other did not age at all. For both, a bitter parting at death would be expected, since they certainly could not count on being given a special dispensation like Lúthien and Beren or even Tudor and Idril. >5. How did Melian bear children and if this was possible, why did it not >occur more often, especially with evil Maia coupling with elves and men? Melian had taken the form of an Elf, and in that form she did all the physical things that Elves did -- just as Gandalf ate, smoked, and slept like the Men whose form he appeared in. (By the way, you mean "evil Maiar". "Maia" is singular; "Maiar" is plural.) >6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? Hobbits are a subgroup of the human species. Men and hobbits could interbreed, though we have no record of such a coupling actually happening. Outside Bree, it would be very very unlikely for Men and Hobbits to interact; even within Bree I suspect that each kind would keep to itself for courting. Men and Elves could interbreed, obviously. Tolkien needed that to make the story work, but he was not a biologist (as I believe he said once when asked questions like this). Certainly he was aware that there are logical problems with the offspring of a mortal and an immortal: which gene is dominant? -- though of course he wouldn't have phrased the question that way. Dwarves were not Children of Ilúvatar like Elves and Men, so I think we can assume (note the verb) that there would be no unions of Dwarf and non-Dwarf. Supporting this is the fact that Dwarves tended to be much more "clannish" and to stay in their own halls much more than other peoples, only coming out into the world to trade. >7. Why did the Valar protect the elves from Morgoth but throw men to >essentially their own devices when dealing with Sauron? I'd ask a different question: Why _didn't_ the Valar protect the Elves from Morgoth? The Valar really do seem to me to have a poor record as guardians of Arda and of its peoples. Their first thought seemed to be to build their own little paradise in Valinor, and when Melkor started making trouble they just raised up mountains to inhibit his travels instead of actually doing anything about him. Why did they let him get away with the monstrous practice of making Orcs? When Melkor actually killed the first High King of the Noldor, the Valar were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. moaning about the loss of the Trees. Then when the Noldor did start after him, instead of giving any assistance the Valar made it harder for the Noldor to get back to Valinor. So their actions in the Third Age were actually marginally better. They still did nothing, but at least they sent five missionaries to encourage and lead Elves and Men in resisting Sauron. Once they'd done that, the Valar reverted to type and did nothing for another two thousand years. >8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special treatment >for the elves just because their gift is different? This is answered well in the "Akallabeth" section of /The Silmarillion/. Briefly, Men could not endure Valinor; their lives would actually wear out faster. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 59 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 17 Jun 2001 15:17:23 GMT References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39802 In article <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com>, Michael Lodman writes: >It strikes me as a bit odd that: > >1. Two different characters (Arwen and Luthien) are allowed the gift of men >even though they are elves. In fact, it's clear that becoming mortal isn't >a gift at all. Not so. One of the main messages of Tolkien is that the Fall of Man resulted from a misconception of the place of mortality in the human existance. > I can't think of a clear case where men were allowed the >gift of elves. Earendil might be considered. Tuor is a possibility as well >2. If orcs are distorted elves, do they go to the halls of Mandos? Certainly not that portion on Mandos where Elves go. >3. Why only the two children of Eru, when there are many different sentient >races including: elves, men, dwarves, ents, eagles, dragons, trolls(?), >orcs, etc. Well, Eru 'adopted' the dwarves. As to the others, I think that is aquestion Tolkien was wrestling with. >4. Why did not other couplings undocumented take place between elves and >men? Why only the three documented cases? Those are the Eldar and the Edain. There were apparently other couplings between Avari and Men, including one in Imrahil's lineage. >5. How did Melian bear children and if this was possible, why did it not >occur more often, especially with evil Maia coupling with elves and men? We see an example of such a coupling in Shelob and the spiders in Mirkwood. >6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? Elves, men, hobbits and orcs certainly can. Dwarves? Who knows. >7. Why did the Valar protect the elves from Morgoth but throw men to >essentially their own devices when dealing with Sauron? Good question. The regular answer is that they had learned that their interference usually backfires. >8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special treatment >for the elves just because their gift is different? Tolkien explains that in an immortal realm, mortal men would wither and die very quickly. Consider the Fellowship's experience in Lorien which because of Galadriel's Ring, operated temoraly somewhat like Aman. The mortals though a few days had passed when in reality a few weeks had passes. Extend that out to years and you see the problems for mortals. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:19:55 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.53 X-Server-Date: 17 Jun 2001 15:18:37 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39838 It seems Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In the essay "Osanwe-kenta", Tolkien explains that when the Ainur used >physical bodies for purposes directly connected to that physical form, >they could become increasingly bound to those bodies on a permanant >basis (something like an addiction, I think). Things like speech or >travel would not cause such binding (not being purely physical in >nature), but things like eating, drinking, physical violence, and >above all "begetting" (as Tolkien called it) would make an Ainu's >physical body permanant. A good summary. (The essay is in /Vinyar Tengwar/ #41, by the way, and can be had for $2 from the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship at . It's very definitely worth reading. >Given that, Melian may have paid a serious >price for her love of Thingol and for bearing Luthien, and it may come >as no surprise that few other Ainur were willing to make that >sacrifice. I've wondered about this too. But remember that when she was tired of Middle-earth she just forsook her body and returned to Valinor. So apparently the binding can't have been too solid, even with the "begetting". "Thereafter Melian ... vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came. ..." I suspect that a big difference is the motivation. She was actuated by love of Thingol, and perhaps she was even fated in the Music to unite with one of the Children; Morgoth and Sauron were actuated by lust for power. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: 17 Jun 2001 23:25:19 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 992813121 1158 10.0.3.2 (17 Jun 2001 21:25:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 21:25:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39853 mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: > In article <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com>, Michael Lodman > writes: > > >8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special treatment > >for the elves just because their gift is different? > > Tolkien explains that in an immortal realm, mortal men would wither and die > very quickly. Consider the Fellowship's experience in Lorien which because of > Galadriel's Ring, operated temoraly somewhat like Aman. The mortals though a > few days had passed when in reality a few weeks had passes. Extend that out to > years and you see the problems for mortals. Actually we have here a contradiction: Aman is supposed to accelerate mortals lives. Lorien slows them down (only feels/ages days in weeks). Of course this fits the elven ring aim of slowing down time/decay. The problem is, why do the undying lands (= aging/decay slowed down to zero) accelerate mortal lives? Is there a description anywhere _why_ this is supposed to be so (not just statements that it is so, they are a plenty)? Is it not more the case that mortals _appear_ to age faster, relative to an non-aging environment? And that this would disturb the Valar and Elves to see it, and disturb the mortals to see themselves in this, so the mortals are prohibited because of that? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Michael Kohrs Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:20:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.207.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 992794834 63.14.207.188 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:20:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:20:34 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39949 On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:12:03 -0400, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >When Melkor actually killed the first High King of the Noldor, the >Valar were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. >moaning about the loss of the Trees. LOL! Thanks for a great metaphor that I'll always cherish (and maybe even use from time to time!) :) Does that make Orome the Headless Horseman of Aman? Mnkohrz ###### Message-ID: <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:03:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992801030 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:03:50 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:03:50 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39964 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Why is it clear that mortality isn't a gift? The Elves lived for ages > and ages in the world, seeing almost everything that they cared for > pass away. It was so depressing that most of them couldn't stand it, > and had to leave the world that theyloved to pass over the sea to a > borrowed homeland where they could find some measure of contentment. > On top of that, the Elves had no clear assurance that their "souls" > would last beyond the end of Middle-earth itself (and hints that they > wouldn't), while mortal humans were to have a part in the Second Music > and be truly immortal, even beyond the end of the world. It's clear because elves at times could select to become mortal, though few did except women in love. Men on the other hand never became immortal. > You're right, though, that there's no clear example of humans being > given the Elves' fate. (I don't recall hearing it referred to as a > "gift", though.) Tuor is the only likely candidate that I can think > of, and that's not absolutely certain. Perhaps Eru thought it cruel > to take away the Gift of Men. Tuor is a long way from certain. All that is known is that he disappeared, and some said he was joined with the elves. > We've wondered that, too. Of course, Tolkien never clearly decided > that Orcs _were_ distorted Elves, so it's a very open question. I > think many believe that if Orcs _did_ go to Mandos, they must have had > their own halls there that the Elves never saw. Alternately, the Orcs > may have refused to go to Mandos and instead obeyed a counter-summons > to Morgoth (or possibly in later ages to Sauron). Where did they get this power? There is no hint of it. > Given that, Melian may have paid a serious > price for her love of Thingol and for bearing Luthien, and it may come > as no surprise that few other Ainur were willing to make that > sacrifice. The Ainur seem damm unwilling to make much of a sacrifice in general. Melian paid no price other than to love, and why couldn't she see Thingol in Mandos when he died? In fact, all of the elves should have been accessible there, including Feanor. > That's a good question. In part, I think it's because (as Tolkien > says in some places) mortals who went to Valinor would actually age > and pass away _faster_ when they were there. In part, the Valar may > have regretted bringing the Elves West in the first place. I'm not > sure what the final reason for forbidding Men was, though. So what if they aged and passed away faster? It's a choice. A new one: How come Balrogs could be killed with a sword? Aren't they Maiar? ###### Message-ID: <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:06:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992801166 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:06:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:06:06 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39973 Stan Brown wrote: > >8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special treatment > >for the elves just because their gift is different? > > This is answered well in the "Akallabeth" section of /The > Silmarillion/. Briefly, Men could not endure Valinor; their lives > would actually wear out faster. So when some decide to go, Eru kills all the ones who didn't in Numenor as well? This explanation is weak. I think more likely that the immortals didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. ###### Message-ID: <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:08:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992801292 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:08:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:08:12 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39974 Russ wrote: > Not so. One of the main messages of Tolkien is that the Fall of Man resulted > from a misconception of the place of mortality in the human existance. Re-read the topic. We are discussing application not concept. > > I can't think of a clear case where men were allowed the > >gift of elves. > > Earendil might be considered. Tuor is a possibility as well Earendil is half-elven on his mother's side. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 25 Message-ID: <187X6.189$lw4.9462@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 992804477 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:01:17 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:01:17 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 187X6-27230-lw4-9484@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 44a0c492 027d1d80 a83ae5a2 28bc676b 2ff46466 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:01:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39900 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) in article : > It seems Steuard Jensen wrote: [Referring to Melian being "bound" to her physical body:] > >Given that, Melian may have paid a serious price for her love of > >Thingol and for bearing Luthien > I've wondered about this too. But remember that when she was tired > of Middle-earth she just forsook her body and returned to Valinor. > So apparently the binding can't have been too solid, even with the > "begetting". That's been the biggest problem in my reading of the story, too, but I don't think it's a fatal one. Or rather, fatal may be precisely what it was: Melian may have in some sense died of grief when she forsook her body after Thingol's death, just as the immortal Elves could die of grief and sorrow. Such bodily death seems to have taken an enormous toll on those Ainur who experienced it (Saruman and Gandalf, for example, and Sauron twice), and it can't have been a pleasant experience. I suspect that the binding of Ainur to physical forms was essentially a matter of becoming more Elf-like: they could then be "slain", and might then need assistance (or considerable expenditure of time and personal power) to reform their physical bodies or learn to live without them again. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 68 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 992805703 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:21:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:21:43 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: br7X6-27318-lw4-9478@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 58463314 c1f3a86f 5108b24c 71bd3420 5d10b37a Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:21:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39907 Quoth Michael Lodman in article <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com>: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Alternately, the Orcs may have refused to go to Mandos and instead > > obeyed a counter-summons to Morgoth (or possibly in later ages to > > Sauron). > Where did they get this power? There is no hint of it. Usually, when I don't say something like "I think that" or "it seems possible that", it means that there _is_ at least a substantial hint of what I'm claiming in Tolkien's writings. :) In this case, the hint is in the essay "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar", found in _Morgoth's Ring_. (Specifically, such things are discussed near the end of the section " Of Re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos".) To quote explicitly what it says about Elvish spirits after death: "The _fea_ ["spirit" or "soul", basically]... cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos, and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the _fea_ unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth." As I said, if Orcs were in fact bred from Elves, it seems very likely that they would be "already committed to the Darkness" and obey Morgoth's counter-summons. > > That's a good question. In part, I think it's because (as Tolkien > > says in some places) mortals who went to Valinor would actually > > age and pass away _faster_ when they were there. > So what if they aged and passed away faster? It's a choice. It's a choice, yes, but the Valar were responsible for governing Arda and it can sometimes be reasonable (I think) to forbid the governed from deliberately doing themselves harm. Moreover, many mortals would seek Aman on the basis of misinformation, thinking that their lives would be prolonged there. The Valar, knowing the truth, might be justified in protecting them from their own ignorance. > A new one: How come Balrogs could be killed with a sword? Aren't > they Maiar? It's not clear what death means to one of the Ainur. The concept only really has meaning for those Ainur who were bound to a particular physical form (as I've discussed elsewhere in this thread). I think that when an Ainu bound to a specific physical form was "killed", it would need to rebuild that form before it was able to be active in the world again (or at least, it would need "non-physical therapy" to help it learn to do without a body again... assuming that was possible). If the Ainu didn't have enough personal power remaining to rebuild a physical body, then it would be forever impotent, unable to affect the world. It seems that the loss of a "bound" body had an enormous cost in personal power, too, though that's not entirely certain. (Saruman after his death may have been appealing to the Powers in the West for their aid in helping him become active again, which would give a clear meaning and significance to their apparent refusal.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re:The gift Date: 17 Jun 2001 20:27:44 +0100 Organization: UEA Lines: 102 Message-ID: <9gj0bg$3oe$1@cpca7.uea.ac.uk> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 992806065 31651 139.222.130.7 (17 Jun 2001 19:27:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 19:27:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39862 Quite a bit of conjecture here - be warned ;-) Michael Lodman did boldly declaim: > > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > It's clear because elves at times could select to become mortal, though few > did except women in love. Men on the other hand never became immortal. The only elf who was allowed to become mortal was Luthien - AFAIK, the other 'elves' who chose mortality (Arwen and perhaps her brothers) had mortal blood in them, and were therefore peredhel, not Elves. The peredhel were a different case. According to the first (and most complete) draft of the Doom (HoME V, IIRC), Manwe said that none of the Children who had mortal blood could be denied the Gift; consequently, the default for >all< perdehel would be to be treated as mortal and die. The Valar, however, had the power to grant some peredhel a Choice as to which kindred they would prefer to join. This Choice is recorded as having been granted to Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Arwen and her brothers. Note that the exception only seems to have been made in relation to Earendil, Elwing and his family - it seems to have been a special indulgence granted to them for taking upon themselves a great burden for the benefit of the Two Kindreds. From the fact that Elros' descendants were not offered the Choice, but Elrond's were, it would seem that once a person chose to be mortal, his / her descendants would have been bound by the choice. If, however, he chose to be numbered amongst the elves, his / her descendents would still have mortal blood, and would therefore have to be offered the Choice, or treated as mortals outright. Apart from this, neither Elves nor Men could choose to change their kindreds. Luthien and Beren were an exceptional case - ordinarily, men who died were not permitted to return from Mandos either, but Beren did. I don't think you can deduce a rule that elves could select to become mortal just on the basis of Luthien's case. Of course, I'd be glad to hear of any more examples you may have. Note that the above interpretation would mean that Dior was treated as being mortal, and that Elured and Elurin (the two l'il ones slain by the Feanorean merchant bankers) would also have been treated as being mortal. > > Alternately, the Orcs > > may have refused to go to Mandos and instead obeyed a counter-summons > > to Morgoth (or possibly in later ages to Sauron). > > Where did they get this power? There is no hint of it. IIRC, /Laws and Customs/ in HoME X indicates that when every Elf died, its fea would receive a summons to the Halls of Mandos which it could refuse. > The Ainur seem damm unwilling to make much of a sacrifice in general. The Istari were Ainur, and at least one of them made a significant sacrifice. Actually, I'd say that all the Istari, including Radagast and the Blues, made a rather significant sacrifice when they went to Middle Earth to try and help men, simply because they had to give up much of their 'angelic' powers in the process. > In fact, all of the elves should have been accessible there > [in Mandos], including Feanor. My take on Mandos is that it is a place for the fear to reflect on the mistakes they made in their past life, and 'purify' themselves so they can be reincarnated as better Elves. This probably needs the fear to be more or less on their own. Note that descriptions of Mandos indicate that the fear there aren't exactly communicative ;-) [The ban on men in Valinor] As comrade Jensen said, we don't really know why men were banned from Valinor. My guess is based on the /Athrabeth/. Elves essentially belonged to Arda Unmarred, and their respite from Arda Marred could only come in a place that preserved the memory of Arda Unmarred, i.e. Valinor. However, Arda Unmarred was not the natural world of men, as the /Athrabeth's/ statements about the difference in the way Elves and Men respond to the beauty of the world indicates. The natural world of Men, to take the speculation of the /Athrabeth/ a little further, would be Arda Healed. Valinor, which did not resemble Arda Healed, would therefore be even more alien to men than Arda Marred, in addition to making them burn out faster. The ban was, therefore, probably for their benefit. > A new one: How come Balrogs could be killed with a sword? Aren't they > Maiar? Stabbing a Balrog with a sword wouldn't kill it to the extent it wouldn't destroy the Ainu. However, the /Osanwe-Kenta/ does say that an Ainu could end up being tied to a body, such that it'd be unable to re-embody itself once its body was destroyed (unless it regained its powers). I'd say that's what happened to a Balrog when it died. I think comrade Dunkerson discusses this topic in more detail in his /Truth about Balrogs/ series of essays (recently reposted to this ng), which you'll probably be able to find archived on google.com Meneldil -- "If Aragorn could look for all the world like an Elf lord, then the typical Elf lord couldn't have had M-1 tanks dangling off his head." - a poster on a.f.t., c. 1999 ###### From: meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: 17 Jun 2001 19:41:28 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib_0200_6146.cpc.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 992806888 31595 139.222.126.146 (17 Jun 2001 19:41:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 19:41:28 GMT X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39865 Ţus cwćţ Michael Lodman : [men in the undying lands] >So when some decide to go, Eru kills all the ones who didn't in Numenor as >well? So it would have been, if the only transgression of the Numenoreans was to attempt to break the ban. In fact, it was not - they had taken to worshipping Meleko, they had fallen into human sacrifice, and had in general undergone a second 'fall'. Additionally, their breaking the ban was not a simple touristy voyage to see the sights of Aman. They sought to make war upon superior beings appointed by Eru as the guardians of the world. It was for this that Numenor was drowned. Meneldil ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:42:25 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9gj8f6$ko$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p231.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992814375 664 212.205.253.231 (17 Jun 2001 21:46:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:46:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39885 Michael Lodman wrote in message news:3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com... > > > This is answered well in the "Akallabeth" section of /The > > Silmarillion/. Briefly, Men could not endure Valinor; their lives > > would actually wear out faster. > > So when some decide to go, Eru kills all the ones who didn't in Numenor as > well? Please remember that Numenor had become the worst and most powerful tyrant that the world had seen since the time of Morgoth. Breaking the ban was just the least of its sins - the last only that in declaring war on Valinor there was no turning back. And not everyone was killed. You do remember Elendil, his sons and all the rest of the Faithful, don't you? Aris Katsaris ###### Message-ID: <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> From: Flame of the West Reply-To: beatricecaldwell@earthlink.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:43:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.212.144.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 992814235 63.212.144.11 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:43:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:43:55 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:41:52 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39863 Michael Lodman wrote: > I think more likely that the immortals > didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. Well, you know the cost of funerals these days has really gotten out of hand. But they did wind up burying four mortals at the beginning of the Fourth Age. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:56:11 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 65 Message-ID: <9gj98v$138$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p231.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992815200 1128 212.205.253.231 (17 Jun 2001 22:00:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:00:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39882 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.159692cf8c67b2be98c490@news.mindspring.com... > >7. Why did the Valar protect the elves from Morgoth but throw men to > >essentially their own devices when dealing with Sauron? > > I'd ask a different question: Why _didn't_ the Valar protect the > Elves from Morgoth? The Valar really do seem to me to have a poor > record as guardians of Arda and of its peoples. Their first thought > seemed to be to build their own little paradise in Valinor, and when > Melkor started making trouble they just raised up mountains to > inhibit his travels instead of actually doing anything about him. > Why did they let him get away with the monstrous practice of making > Orcs? Because they knew nothing of it? It's obvious that Melkor discovered the elves first. Before the Valar knew of the elves they could know nothing of the orcs. And when the Valar discovered the elves, they *did* wage war on Melkor. > When Melkor actually killed the first High King of the Noldor, the > Valar were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. > moaning about the loss of the Trees. They were not idle as you declare in the folly of your heart. For the Valar may work many things with thought rather than with hands, and without voices in silence they may hold council one with another. Thus they held vigil in the night of Valinor, and their thought passed beyond Ea and forth to the End. (btw, I do see this as a transitory moment in the operation way of the Valar. If anything I think that Tolkien should have made the significance of this scene even more obvious. I see them passing now from "Guardians of Arda" --who pretty much have the job of protecting the world, same as any other benevolent king-- to "Guardians of the Song" whose job is to fulfill destiny: both much more wise and more impotent than they were before. It's from now on that they become interested with destiny. Pronouncing the Doom. Making Luthien and Beren humans. Being able to intervene with force only when the destined sailor comes. Having to let the oath of Feanor reach its appointed end.) > Then when the Noldor did start > after him, instead of giving any assistance the Valar made it harder > for the Noldor to get back to Valinor. You don't think that the Sun and the Moon were much assistance? My, my, you *do* take sunshine for granted, don't you? :-) > So their actions in the Third Age were actually marginally better. > They still did nothing, but at least they sent five missionaries to > encourage and lead Elves and Men in resisting Sauron. Once they'd > done that, the Valar reverted to type and did nothing for another > two thousand years. We don't know that of course. There's a very strong hint that they also sent that dream to Faramir and Boromir for example. And the Valar may well have made that Mumak turn aside... :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:58:24 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p231.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992815333 1157 212.205.253.231 (17 Jun 2001 22:02:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:02:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39880 Michael Lodman wrote in message news:3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com... > > Russ wrote: > > Not so. One of the main messages of Tolkien is that the Fall of Man resulted > > from a misconception of the place of mortality in the human existance. > > Re-read the topic. We are discussing application not concept. Pardon? > > Earendil might be considered. Tuor is a possibility as well > > Earendil is half-elven on his mother's side. If we are to remove the half-elves, then we have one elf (Luthien) becoming human, and one human (Tuor) becoming an elf... Aris Katsaris ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:06:33 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.bf X-Server-Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:05:14 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!deine.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39947 It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? > >Elves, men, hobbits and orcs certainly can. Dwarves? Who knows. How do you know orcs and men can interbreed? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:11:35 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.bf X-Server-Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:10:15 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39953 It seems Michael Lodman wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >It's clear because elves at times could select to become mortal, Such a selection was not the Elves' option. It was granted to them as a favor after prayer and entreaty (Lúthien), or they were _required_ by the Valar to make an irrevocable choice (Idril; Elros; Elrond and his children). When you say "select" it sounds at first like an Elf could just one day up and decide, "I think I'll become a mortal." I hope that's not what you meant. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:16:06 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.bf X-Server-Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:14:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39946 It seems Meneldil wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ţus cwćţ Michael Lodman : >[men in the undying lands] >>So when some decide to go, Eru kills all the ones who didn't in Numenor as >>well? > >So it would have been, if the only transgression of the Numenoreans was to >attempt to break the ban. In fact, it was not - they had taken to worshipping >Meleko, they had fallen into human sacrifice, and had in general undergone a >second 'fall'. Additionally, their breaking the ban was not a simple touristy >voyage to see the sights of Aman. They sought to make war upon superior >beings appointed by Eru as the guardians of the world. It was for this that >Numenor was drowned. Right -- and remember that (most of) the Faithful were spared, either because they had already moved to the Northwest of Middle- earth, or because they were on shipboard with Elendil and his sons. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "David Flood" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:17:31 +0100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9gjad4$vgr$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-237.oenghus.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 992816356 32283 62.137.248.237 (17 Jun 2001 22:19:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:19:16 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39897 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com... > Michael Lodman wrote: > > > I think more likely that the immortals > > didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. > > Well, you know the cost of funerals these days has > really gotten out of hand Not in Dublin, it hasn't. A (in)famous funeral firm here called Massey's sells *cardboard* coffins, and has just introduced a *coffin rental* service (I can't decide whether that's funny or not ;-) D. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:22:45 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.bf X-Server-Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:21:26 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39956 It seems Flame of the West wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Michael Lodman wrote: > >> I think more likely that the immortals >> didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. > >Well, you know the cost of funerals these days has >really gotten out of hand. But they did wind up >burying four mortals at the beginning of the >Fourth Age. Four? Are you counting the horse? (I know as soon as you point out the fourth, I'll kick myself.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:47:11 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p231.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992818261 2544 212.205.253.231 (17 Jun 2001 22:51:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:51:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39888 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.1596f7bf42452aaa98c49f@news.mindspring.com... > It seems Flame of the West wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Michael Lodman wrote: > > > >> I think more likely that the immortals > >> didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. > > > >Well, you know the cost of funerals these days has > >really gotten out of hand. But they did wind up > >burying four mortals at the beginning of the > >Fourth Age. > > Four? Are you counting the horse? > > (I know as soon as you point out the fourth, I'll kick myself.) Probably referring to Gimli. He was mortal but not *a* Mortal, please remember. And given that dwarves weren't given the Gift of Men, who knows? Perhaps he was even given immortality, and thus he is still alive... Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:47:59 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010617184759.01871.00001417@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39902 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Four? Are you counting the horse? > >(I know as soon as you point out the fourth, I'll kick myself.) Didn't Sam eventually go? Russ ###### Message-ID: <3B2D460A.7AB7A103@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:06:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992822795 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:06:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:06:35 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39962 Stan Brown wrote: > Such a selection was not the Elves' option. It was granted to them > as a favor after prayer and entreaty (Lúthien), or they were > _required_ by the Valar to make an irrevocable choice (Idril; Elros; > Elrond and his children). Yes but. Once decided to be mortal the decendents could never select otherwise unless married back into the elven bloodline, whereas in the case of Arwen, she was allowed to decide, without precendent, as a third generation 3/4 elf to become mortal, without any hint in LoR that anything was involved except her choice. > When you say "select" it sounds at first like an Elf could just one > day up and decide, "I think I'll become a mortal." I hope that's not > what you meant. It is exactly what I meant. The choices all go one way. How many of Elros' third generation decendents would have chosen the to be Eldar? All of them? Why couldn't they chose? ###### Message-ID: <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:10:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992823002 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:10:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:10:02 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39968 Meneldil wrote: > So it would have been, if the only transgression of the Numenoreans was to > attempt to break the ban. In fact, it was not - they had taken to worshipping > Meleko, they had fallen into human sacrifice, and had in general undergone a > second 'fall'. Additionally, their breaking the ban was not a simple touristy > voyage to see the sights of Aman. They sought to make war upon superior > beings appointed by Eru as the guardians of the world. It was for this that > Numenor was drowned. Who cares what they decided to do? Melkor was simply caged for a while the first time he was caught. Sauron the mighty Ainur simply seemed to forget about after the first age until the wizards came. They couldn't find him. Right. In fact in Numenor, the righteous and the unrighteous were drowned alike, except for a few ships of survivors. I'd call this a reaction far out of proportion to the crime. ###### Message-ID: <3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:12:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992823152 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:12:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:12:32 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39967 Aris Katsaris wrote: > If we are to remove the half-elves, then we have one elf (Luthien) becoming > human, and one human (Tuor) becoming an elf... Tuor is an unknown. Luthien is a known. There is a big difference. ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Jun 2001 03:04:14 GMT References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39903 In article <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >Probably referring to Gimli. He was mortal but not *a* Mortal, >please remember. And given that dwarves weren't given the >Gift of Men, who knows? Perhaps he was even given >immortality, and thus he is still alive... Well the three were clearly Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli. I think the fourth is Sam. Russ ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Jun 2001 03:04:14 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010617230414.28252.00007995@nso-mq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39904 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? >> >>Elves, men, hobbits and orcs certainly can. Dwarves? Who knows. > >How do you know orcs and men can interbreed? "Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long after wards in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. Morgoth's Ring, Myths Tranformed, Text X, pg 418-19. This idea is incorporated into Unfinished Tales, Battles of the Fords of Isen, "...there appeared a company of men or orc-men...", and "...Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man." Russ ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <12225-3B2D7437-2@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRhIkFAQGw+0YGiWQrrKUrDkyWNpgIUcD/OPnbfNpyj9QiiJtgO+yuCqM8= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39855 Stan Brown wrote: >How do you know orcs and men can >interbreed? He's probably basing that on the half-orcs that Saruman was breeding in Isengard. --Dave ###### Message-ID: <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> From: Flame of the West Reply-To: beatricecaldwell@earthlink.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:35:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.152.155.222 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 992835331 64.152.155.222 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:35:31 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:35:31 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:33:27 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39868 Russ wrote: > Well the three were clearly Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli. I think the fourth is Sam. That's what I meant. Of course, I had forgotten Shadowfax, but then again, I don't know if one buries horses. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:59:23 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.ca X-Server-Date: 18 Jun 2001 03:58:02 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39941 It seems Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote in message >news:MPG.1596f7bf42452aaa98c49f@news.mindspring.com... >> It seems Flame of the West wrote in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >Michael Lodman wrote: >> > >> >> I think more likely that the immortals >> >> didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. >> > >> >Well, you know the cost of funerals these days has >> >really gotten out of hand. But they did wind up >> >burying four mortals at the beginning of the >> >Fourth Age. >> >> Four? Are you counting the horse? >> >> (I know as soon as you point out the fourth, I'll kick myself.) > >Probably referring to Gimli. He was mortal but not *a* Mortal, >please remember. I was counting Gimli as number 3, but as you point out he doesn't qualify because he was not a mortal (noun) though he was indeed mortal (adjective). Even counting him, I still see only three: Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli. So who is the fourth? (I don't count Sam because he may never have gone at all, despite Frodo's words, and in any event he certainly did not go "at the beginning of the Fourth Age". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:04:16 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> <3B2D460A.7AB7A103@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.ca X-Server-Date: 18 Jun 2001 04:02:55 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39938 It seems Michael Lodman wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Once decided to be mortal the decendents could never select >otherwise unless married back into the elven bloodline, whereas in the case >of Arwen, she was allowed to decide, without precendent, as a third >generation 3/4 elf to become mortal, without any hint in LoR that anything >was involved except her choice. In fact, LotR specifically says that Elrond's children had limited choice: _either_ to take ship with him when he west over sea, or to stay in Middle-earth and become mortal. From Appendix A, I, (i): "At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind. ... But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass WITH HIM from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. [emphasis added]" So Arwen have only a very limited choice: if she missed her boat she must be mortal and die. There was no way she could delay the decision. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:08:47 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.ca X-Server-Date: 18 Jun 2001 04:07:26 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39948 It seems Michael Lodman wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In fact in Numenor, the righteous and the unrighteous were drowned alike, >except for a few ships of survivors. Read again, or read "Akallabeth" if you haven't read it. It gives more detail than Appendix A in LotR. The Faithful were only a tiny fraction by the end, and most of those had already gone to Middle-earth to avoid being used as human sacrifices in Sauron's new religion. Amandil (Elendil's father) specifically tells Elendil to gather up the remaining Faithful and get them onto the boats. Therefore all the people left on the island were part of Sauron's religion and rebels against the Valar, with the possible exception of Queen Miriel. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:11:58 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <20010617230414.28252.00007995@nso-mq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.ca X-Server-Date: 18 Jun 2001 04:10:37 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39940 It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>>6. Can elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs all interbreed? >>> >>>Elves, men, hobbits and orcs certainly can. Dwarves? Who knows. >> >>How do you know orcs and men can interbreed? > [quote snipped from: ] >Morgoth's Ring, Myths Tranformed, Text X, pg 418-19. > >This idea is incorporated into Unfinished Tales, Battles of the Fords of Isen, >"...there appeared a company of men or orc-men...", and "...Theodred fell, hewn >down by a great orc-man." Right you are -- I had forgotten about HoME X. We might dismiss the UT quote as poetical exaggeration, if not for the HoME quote and Aragorn's(?) speculation in LotR that Saruman was crossing Orcs with men (which I've just now remembered). I guess the thought of Orc-human crossbreeding is so horrible that I'd simply blanked it out of my mind. :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3B2D9C78.ADA5B874@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:15:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992844921 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:15:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:15:21 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39970 Stan Brown wrote: > Therefore all the people left on the island were part of Sauron's > religion and rebels against the Valar, with the possible exception > of Queen Miriel. This doesn't even make good literary sense. For one children make up a significant fraction of any population, and most of them would have no point of view. For two, only in such a limited world would populations side so significantly for one side or the other. Most people are generally just trying to get by. I believe that Tolkien's god and the Ainur are rather bloodthirsty. This fits with the other known Atlantis tales, but limits the moral quality of the Ainur. ###### Message-ID: <3B2D9CC9.275EEB35@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF105.9839AF37@home.com> <3B2D460A.7AB7A103@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:16:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992845001 24.0.190.76 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:16:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:16:41 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39969 Stan Brown wrote: > In fact, LotR specifically says that Elrond's children had limited > choice: _either_ to take ship with him when he west over sea, or to > stay in Middle-earth and become mortal. The point is she could still choose. How many decendents of Elros would have liked a similar choice? They had none at all. > So Arwen have only a very limited choice: if she missed her boat she > must be mortal and die. There was no way she could delay the > decision. Except by delaying her father. ###### Lines: 57 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Jun 2001 07:10:07 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010618031007.06309.00001588@ng-fg1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39917 Stan Brown wrote: >Hobbits are a subgroup of the human species. They are? Where do you get this information from? IIRC, this is far more specific information than anything Tolkien provides. All he says is that they are a "branch" of the "human race". This is in a footnote referring to their origins. Essentially, all Tolkien is saying is that they are derived from the same mythic primal origen as men, that they are, in essence, a branch of the same "family tree", and do not, like elves or dwarves, have a separate primal mythical origin. The word "human" need not refer only to the species "homo sapiens", though those are in fact the only humans who currently exist on this planet. The term is frequently extended to other species like homo neanderthalis or homo erectus (members of the genus "homo"), or even extended further to cover members of the family "hominidae". >Men and hobbits could >interbreed, though we have no record of such a coupling actually >happening. Then what is your basis for claiming that Men and hobbits could interbreed? Indeed, we have ample evidence to show that, for all practical purposes, no genetic intermixing has been taking place. Hobbits have grown smaller, not larger, over the 8,000 years since LOTR took place. Presumably, this had been happening for several thousand years beforehand as well, for otherwise Hobbits, who occupy the same lands as Men, could never have been able to diverge so much, due to continuous intermingling.. This, in itself, would be considered sufficient for Men and Hobbits to be classified as separate species by the usual standards of science. It is not necessary to prove that they are literally biological incapable of mating and producing offspring. Take for instance the Neanderthals. We do not know if it was biologically possible for them to mate with homo sapiens and produce viable offspring. All we do know is that no genetic intermingling in fact took place despite thousands of years of coexistence. There may have been isolated incidents of mixed children, but even if so, they had no future, and would eventually die out without being absorbed into the genetic heritage of either group. This is adequate to classify them as a separate species from Sapiens. Another example is horses and donkeys. They can be induced to mate and produce mules, but the offspring are never absorbed into the genetic heritage of either group. In this case it is because the crossbreeds are sterile, but it really does not matter what the reason is. As long as significant intermixing is not ultimately feasible, then the groups can be classified as separate species. >Outside Bree, it would be very very unlikely for Men >and Hobbits to interact; even within Bree I suspect that each kind >would keep to itself for courting. I would expect so. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Matt Thrower" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:49:07 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3b2db274$0$12245$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: portal.cramer.co.uk X-Trace: 992850548 reading.news.pipex.net 12245 193.130.83.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39955 "Michael Lodman" wrote in message news:3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com... > > Stan Brown wrote: > > >8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special treatment > > >for the elves just because their gift is different? > > > > This is answered well in the "Akallabeth" section of /The > > Silmarillion/. Briefly, Men could not endure Valinor; their lives > > would actually wear out faster. > > So when some decide to go, Eru kills all the ones who didn't in Numenor as > well? This explanation is weak. I think more likely that the immortals > didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. I always thought that another reason men were barred from Valinor becuase they were mortal, and therefore prone to inflicting great sorrow upon themselves and those who loved them. Valinor was supposed to be paradise and therefore free of misery, so for the good of the Ainur and the elves, men had to stay away. ###### Message-ID: <3B2DB44F.1291C85A@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3b2db274$0$12245$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 07:57:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992851023 24.0.190.76 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:57:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:57:03 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39965 Matt Thrower wrote: > I always thought that another reason men were barred from Valinor becuase > they were mortal, and therefore prone to inflicting great sorrow upon > themselves and those who loved them. Valinor was supposed to be paradise and > therefore free of misery, so for the good of the Ainur and the elves, men > had to stay away. Yeah, Valinor was so free from misery.(Where did the Noldor have their problems begin anyway?) Those nasty men would have just messed it up, littering the mound of the two trees, filling up the hill around Tuna with cemeteries, trying to climb the Holy Mtn. and leaving their carcases up there, taking potshots at Earendil, having MTV broadcast live from the shore of Elvenhome., etc. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:34:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 992860455 208.170.95.135 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 05:34:15 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 05:34:15 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39963 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > Therefore all the people left on the island were part of Sauron's > religion and rebels against the Valar, with the possible exception > of Queen Miriel. That's extremely dubious both ways. It's like saying "everyone in Nazi Germany was a committed Nazi, because anyone who didn't agree with the Nazis could have emigrated" -- which is of course not true. Moreover Tar-Míriel's lack of complicity with Tar-Calion is rather muddied by The Peoples of Middle-earth pp. 159-161. David Salo ###### From: "Matt Thrower" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3b2db274$0$12245$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> <3B2DB44F.1291C85A@home.com> Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:56:23 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3b2dde58$0$12249$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: portal.cramer.co.uk X-Trace: 992861784 reading.news.pipex.net 12249 193.130.83.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39961 "Michael Lodman" wrote in message news:3B2DB44F.1291C85A@home.com... > > Matt Thrower wrote: > > I always thought that another reason men were barred from Valinor becuase > > they were mortal, and therefore prone to inflicting great sorrow upon > > themselves and those who loved them. Valinor was supposed to be paradise and > > therefore free of misery, so for the good of the Ainur and the elves, men > > had to stay away. > > Yeah, Valinor was so free from misery.(Where did the Noldor have their > problems begin anyway?) You'll notice, if you examine the text closely, the insertion of the word 'supposed' before my statement about being free of misery. This is intended to convey the meaning that this was the original inception of Valinor, not it's actuality. There was misery in Valinor before the rebellion of the Noldor: the death of Miriel was the first of those and Tolkien wrestled with the impact this might have on his cosmology. It could be argued that all the problems of the Noldor stem from Miriels death and the fact the Finwe took a new wife. However, as selfish as Feanor eventually proved to be, it's worth noting that most of the problems the Noldor had were due to Morgoth fanning the flames with lies and hatred, and the elves choosing to believe him instead of the 'true' Valar. Furthermore, the Valar (as you are right to point out) failed time and time again in making good decisions about what to do in Arda. They were not perfect decision makers. Indeed, if I remember rightly, objections were raised when Valinor was fist planned as a haven for the firstborn, objections which prooved well founded. I guess that's a warning about how dangerous and divisive it can be, trying to create heaven on earth. > Those nasty men would have just messed it up, littering the mound of the > two trees, filling up the hill around Tuna with cemeteries, trying to climb > the Holy Mtn. and leaving their carcases up there, taking potshots at > Earendil, having MTV broadcast live from the shore of Elvenhome., etc. Well yes, plus the sadness that would have been caused to the elves, the ainur and other men when their friends passed away. ###### Message-ID: <3B2E099B.BEA4D69D@earthlink.com> From: Flame of the West Reply-To: beatricecaldwell@earthlink.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:59:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.152.156.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 992865543 64.152.156.66 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:59:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:59:03 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:56:56 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39874 Stan Brown wrote: > I don't count Sam because he may never have > gone at all, despite Frodo's words, The Appendix indicates that he did go. > and in any event he certainly > did not go "at the beginning of the Fourth Age". Sure he did. Maybe not at the very beginning, but within a hobbit-lifetime of it. Those ages were pretty long, and I count Sam's departure as still very early in the 4th Age. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:26:09 +0300 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9gkvdq$2g13$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-7.di.uoa.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 992870650 81955 195.134.66.207 (18 Jun 2001 13:24:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 13:24:10 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39908 "Michael Lodman" wrote in message news:3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com... > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > If we are to remove the half-elves, then we have one elf (Luthien) becoming > > human, and one human (Tuor) becoming an elf... > > Tuor is an unknown. Luthien is a known. There is a big difference. Not really. Aris Katsaris ###### From: tbarrie@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org (Trevor Barrie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:07:19 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Giant ants are cool Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9gl5f7$fv8$1@giantantfarm.dyn.dhs.org> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: user1-76.gradstudents.utoronto.ca (142.150.176.76) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 992887864 10313763 142.150.176.76 (16 [90758]) X-Orig-Path: unknown!not-for-mail Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!user1-76.gradstudents.utoronto.CA!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39926 In article <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >> Tolkien explains that in an immortal realm, mortal men would wither and >> die very quickly. Consider the Fellowship's experience in Lorien which >> because of Galadriel's Ring, operated temoraly somewhat like Aman. The >> mortals though a few days had passed when in reality a few weeks had >> passes. Extend that out to years and you see the problems for mortals. > >Actually we have here a contradiction: > >Aman is supposed to accelerate mortals lives. > >Lorien slows them down (only feels/ages days in weeks). Of course this >fits the elven ring aim of slowing down time/decay. That depends on whether they physically aged a few days or a few weeks while in Lothlorien. If it's the latter, that could certainly be read as an acceleration of their lives. (Ie, a mortal could live out his or her entire lifespan in Lorien and have it only feel like 10 years or so.) ###### Message-ID: <3B2E1BF0.BBC6CE91@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com> <9gkvdq$2g13$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:19:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992877552 24.0.190.76 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:19:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:19:12 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39972 Aris Katsaris wrote: > > "Michael Lodman" wrote in message > news:3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com... > > > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > If we are to remove the half-elves, then we have one elf (Luthien) > becoming > > > human, and one human (Tuor) becoming an elf... > > > > Tuor is an unknown. Luthien is a known. There is a big difference. > > Not really. Ooookaaayyy. I mean really, if there is no difference between known and unknown, what more can be said? ###### Message-ID: <3B2E1CBB.2D28FDB4@home.com> From: Michael Lodman Organization: @Home Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3b2db274$0$12245$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> <3B2DB44F.1291C85A@home.com> <3b2dde58$0$12249$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:22:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.190.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 992877755 24.0.190.76 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:22:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:22:35 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!24.0.0.38!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39971 Matt Thrower wrote: > You'll notice, if you examine the text closely, the insertion of the word > 'supposed' before my statement about being free of misery. This is intended > to convey the meaning that this was the original inception of Valinor, not > it's actuality. This doesn't even seem to be a true statement. Valinor was primarily a fortress for the Valar after being forced out of middle earth. This leads to another question: Given that the original home of the Valar was in middle-earth, what were they going to do with men if they hadn't been forced out? ###### From: "Matt Thrower" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3b2db274$0$12245$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> <3B2DB44F.1291C85A@home.com> <3b2dde58$0$12249$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> <3B2E1CBB.2D28FDB4@home.com> Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:44:15 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3b2e21cf$0$15023$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: portal.cramer.co.uk X-Trace: 992879055 reading.news.pipex.net 15023 193.130.83.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39960 "Michael Lodman" wrote in message news:3B2E1CBB.2D28FDB4@home.com... > > Matt Thrower wrote: > > You'll notice, if you examine the text closely, the insertion of the word > > 'supposed' before my statement about being free of misery. This is intended > > to convey the meaning that this was the original inception of Valinor, not > > it's actuality. > > This doesn't even seem to be a true statement. Valinor was primarily a > fortress for the Valar after being forced out of middle earth. This leads > to another question: It's a question of how you view the place and the 'character' of the Valar who built it. The Valar were, by nature, beings of extreme 'goodness' in the moral sense. Thus anywhere they dwelt would've been founded on an attempted principle of perfection and eternal happiness. Tolkien states time and time again that there is only suffering in the world because of Morgoth, and the Valar were trying to build something as free of his infulence as possible. Thus although they originally founded Valinor as a refuge against Morgoth, IMHO they would also have tried to turn it into a 'heaven' simply becuase it's in their nature to do so. It's worth noting that, although this point in never elaborated on, Tolkien suggests in one place that humans originally had far, far longer lifespans than even the Dunedain eventually achieved but that they were seduced into worshipping Morgoth in the darkness and suffered drastic cuts in their lifespan and health as a result. This would also be the source of men learning to fear their mortality which is, after all, intended as a gift by Iluvitar. If both men and elves could have faith in Iluvitar to know what was best for them (which they should in Arda unmarred) then there would be no sorrow and Valinor (or it's equivalent in a Morgothless world) would have been open to all. > Given that the original home of the Valar was in middle-earth, what were > they going to do with men if they hadn't been forced out? Probably nothing: the original plan was to get the elves out of middle-earth to get them away from Morgoth. Without Morgoth, all of Arda, including middle-earth, would have been as Valinor. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:59:15 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9glj97$b1r$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> <3B2D9C78.ADA5B874@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u199.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992890984 11323 62.103.251.199 (18 Jun 2001 19:03:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:03:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!golmote!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39981 Michael Lodman wrote in message news:3B2D9C78.ADA5B874@home.com... > > Stan Brown wrote: > > Therefore all the people left on the island were part of Sauron's > > religion and rebels against the Valar, with the possible exception > > of Queen Miriel. > > This doesn't even make good literary sense. For one children make up a > significant fraction of any population, and most of them would have no > point of view. For two, only in such a limited world would populations side > so significantly for one side or the other. Most people are generally just > trying to get by. Once again - Numenor was a tyrant that tormented the whole of Middle-earth. You can ofcourse blame Eru for not simply erecting a magical wall around Numenor that would prevent evil Numenoreans from doing harm, but that's *nothing* compared to the things we've seen the Judeochristian god do. > I believe that Tolkien's god and the Ainur are rather bloodthirsty. The Ainur are types and types of course. And as I said - Eru is a vast improvement over the vast majority of Gods in contemporary religions. For starters there's no real suggestion of hell in the afterlife. The lack of hell, makes God's dealing out of death a bit more palatable. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:04:38 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9gljja$b3d$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com> <9gkvdq$2g13$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> <3B2E1BF0.BBC6CE91@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u199.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992891307 11373 62.103.251.199 (18 Jun 2001 19:08:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:08:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!golmote!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39982 Michael Lodman wrote in message news:3B2E1BF0.BBC6CE91@home.com... > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > "Michael Lodman" wrote in message > > news:3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com... > > > > > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > If we are to remove the half-elves, then we have one elf (Luthien) > > becoming > > > > human, and one human (Tuor) becoming an elf... > > > > > > Tuor is an unknown. Luthien is a known. There is a big difference. > > > > Not really. > > Ooookaaayyy. I mean really, if there is no difference between known and > unknown, what more can be said? It's fiction, man. Tolkien saying that Tuor *may* have become an elf, suggests that such a possibility is well... possible inside his universe. Whether it actually happened or not, is *way* secondary. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> Subject: Re: The gift Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:17:18 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 992895605 195.82.196.59 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:20:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:20:05 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!kinglear.mobilixnet.dk!news1!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39984 "Flame of the West" skrev i en meddelelse news:3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com... > > Well the three were clearly Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli. I think the > > fourth is Sam. > That's what I meant. Of course, I had forgotten Shadowfax, > but then again, I don't know if one buries horses. Orcs don't. Rohirrim do, at least important ones like Snowmane. Rare. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com> Subject: Re: The gift Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:08:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 992902093 12.79.23.124 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:08:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:08:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40054 "Michael Lodman" wrote in message news:3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com... > Tuor is an unknown. Luthien is a known. There is a big > difference. "Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God." Letters #153 ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:23:39 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a002.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992903248 18138 212.205.240.2 (18 Jun 2001 22:27:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:27:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40049 Flame of the West wrote in message news:3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com... > Russ wrote: > > > Well the three were clearly Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli. I think the fourth is Sam. > > That's what I meant. Of course, I had forgotten Shadowfax, > but then again, I don't know if one buries horses. I'm not at all certain we should think that Shadowfax was brought by Gandalf to Aman. This bit of information is in the Epilogue which Tolkien *rejected*. Sure, it may have not been rejected for *this* reason, but it was rejected nonetheless. I don't think we should consider the information provided there as valid, unless confirmed by other sources... Aris Katsaris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2E099B.BEA4D69D@earthlink.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 992903379 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:29:39 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:29:39 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: nhvX6-34441-lw4-13020@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 402bdf71 63461f41 4907a8a7 868267cf 7e2c0913 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:29:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40089 Quoth beatricecaldwell@earthlink.com in article <3B2E099B.BEA4D69D@earthlink.com>: > Stan Brown wrote: > > I don't count Sam because he may never have gone at all, despite > > Frodo's words, > The Appendix indicates that he did go. "On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor... Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise... went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea." It sounds to me like, at most, Sam told Elanor that he was going to the Havens to pass over the sea (she may have simply made an educated guess). Would he have been permitted to go? I'm not entirely sure. Would he have been encouraged to go? I'm not at all sure of that, either. Among other reasons, given the swift aging of mortals in the Undying Lands (and for that matter the long years that passed between their departure and Sam's), Frodo and Bilbo would almost certainly be long dead by the time that Sam got there. I don't know that Cirdan would be happy sending Sam the the West just to visit Frodo's grave... or for that matter that he had the authority to do so. (Maybe Radagast would still have the authority to allow Sam to go, but I suspect that he wouldn't say yes anyway.) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 992904742 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:52:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:52:22 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: GCvX6-34569-lw4-13020@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ea733354 a42106ed a6ac792e bb1f4b5a c5c81a1d Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:52:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40081 Quoth Neil Franklin in article <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>: > Aman is supposed to accelerate mortals lives. > > Lorien slows them down (only feels/ages days in weeks). Of course this > fits the elven ring aim of slowing down time/decay. Interesting, interesting. I was actually just contemplating this when discussing Frodo's likely death before Sam reached Valinor, and I thought of a possible solution. Aragorn says that in Lorien, "time flowed swiftly by [the Fellowship], as for the Elves," but Legolas says, "time does not tary ever." It seems possible that at least some part of Lorien's effect is a matter of _perception_ only. (I'm not quite sure yet how this is reconciled with the power of the Rings to slow the process of decay, but er, it may be possible.) Thus, it might be that a mortal in Aman would live just as long as a mortal elsewhere, but that he would perceive far less time passing before he grew old and died. (Maybe the Rings--and Aman--only slowed changes _outside_ of thinking things.) This would make a fair bit of sense, actually, as much of our perception of time comes from the changes we see in the world around us. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: The gift Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:59:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 992905175 12.79.23.24 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:59:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:59:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40035 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > This bit of information is in the Epilogue which Tolkien > *rejected*. Sure, it may have not been rejected for *this* > reason, but it was rejected nonetheless. I don't think we should > consider the information provided there as valid, unless > confirmed by other sources... A: Tolkien indicated that he liked the Epilogue but that it was 'universally condemned' by the people he asked to review the texts. As such, it seems not so much 'rejected' by Tolkien as 'left out' at the suggestion of others. B: There are other sources; "Then Cirdan led them to the Havens, and there was a white ship lying, and upon the quay beside a great grey horse stood a figure robed all in white awaiting them. As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now..." RotK, The Grey Havens While certainly not explicit it seems very likely to me that the 'great grey horse' is Shadowfax, and that his presence on the 'loading dock' rather than further back where the other horses stopped would indicate that he was going aboard the ship. This is supported by the fact that Tolkien actually wrote it in the Epilogue and; "I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the Sea], though this is not stated. ... He must have ridden to the Havens, and it is inconceivable that he would [have] ridden any beast but Shadowfax; so Shadowfax must have been there. A chronicler winding up a long tale, and for the moment moved principally by the sorrow of those left behind (himself among them!) might omit mention of the horse; but had the great horse also shared in the grief of sundering, he could hardly have been forgotten." Letters #268 ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2E099B.BEA4D69D@earthlink.com> <9glvqe$9f37a$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 992905224 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:00:24 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:00:24 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: cKvX6-34612-lw4-13263@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 334cb05c 031eab31 3cb0f2c8 a76f8469 807aae00 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:00:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40085 Quoth "Morgil Blackhope" in article <9glvqe$9f37a$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de>: > Steuard Jensen kirjoitti viestissä ... > >It sounds to me like, at most, Sam told Elanor that he was going to > >the Havens to pass over the sea (she may have simply made an > >educated guess). Would he have been permitted to go? I'm not > >entirely sure. > From Frodo´s final words to Sam, I got the feeling that this was a > priviledge reserved for all the Ringbearers, and that nobody would > have denied entrance from Sam if he decided to go. But Tolkien also commented (in _Letters_, I think) that Gandalf was the one who was really able to grant permission to Frodo and Bilbo for their journey, and that he was helpful in that way both at the beginning and the end of the journey. I suppose he could easily have left instructions regarding Sam, though. I'm still not sure that Sam would be _advised_ to go, though, considering Frodo's very likely death in the meantime. (Sam sailing West would, I think, be more in hopes of a reunion with Frodo than for healing from the effects that the Ring had on him: unlike Bilbo and Frodo, Sam's lifespan wasn't "stretched" by the thing.) Steuard Jensen ###### Lines: 54 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Jun 2001 23:49:23 GMT References: <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010618194923.03236.00002876@nso-fc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40074 In article <6uy9qqu7cw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin writes: >mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: > >> In article <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com>, Michael Lodman >> writes: >> >> >8. What rule is it that men cannot go to Valinor? Why the special >treatment >> >for the elves just because their gift is different? >> >> Tolkien explains that in an immortal realm, mortal men would wither and die >> very quickly. Consider the Fellowship's experience in Lorien which because >of >> Galadriel's Ring, operated temoraly somewhat like Aman. The mortals >though a >> few days had passed when in reality a few weeks had passes. Extend that >out to >> years and you see the problems for mortals. > >Actually we have here a contradiction: > >Aman is supposed to accelerate mortals lives. Aman doesn;t really do that. Time moves differently in Aman. Men don't age differently in Aman. It would only be perceived that they do because the temoral point of reference changes. Of course, then we have Tolkien's writing on Bilbo and Frodo in AMan which throws some of this out the window. >Lorien slows them down (only feels/ages days in weeks). Of course this >fits the elven ring aim of slowing down time/decay. I disagree. The point I think is that the mortals actually aged several weeks, not several days. That's meaningless for immortal beings but perilous for mortal beings. >The problem is, why do the undying lands (= aging/decay slowed down to >zero) accelerate mortal lives? Is there a description anywhere _why_ >this is supposed to be so (not just statements that it is so, they are >a plenty)? The description is soet of what I was trying to say above. >Is it not more the case that mortals _appear_ to age faster, relative >to an non-aging environment? And that this would disturb the Valar and >Elves to see it, and disturb the mortals to see themselves in this, so >the mortals are prohibited because of that? Yes. That's whatI'm trying to say. Russ ###### Lines: 34 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Jun 2001 00:03:40 GMT References: <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010618200340.03236.00002878@nso-fc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40066 In article <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >Flame of the West wrote in message >news:3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com... >> Russ wrote: >> >> > Well the three were clearly Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli. I think the fourth >is Sam. >> >> That's what I meant. Of course, I had forgotten Shadowfax, >> but then again, I don't know if one buries horses. > >I'm not at all certain we should think that Shadowfax was brought by >Gandalf to Aman. > >This bit of information is in the Epilogue which Tolkien *rejected*. Tolkien didn't reject it...the publishers did. He confirmed it in a later Letter, btw. > Sure, >it >may have not been rejected for *this* reason, but it was rejected >nonetheless. I don't think we should consider the information >provided there as valid, unless confirmed by other sources... > Letters. Russ ###### Message-ID: <3B2EA13F.E1511EB9@home.com> From: Khab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:50:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.232.73.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.nj.home.com 992911848 64.232.73.70 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:50:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:50:48 PDT Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.nj.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40160 Stan Brown wrote: > It seems Aris Katsaris wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Stan Brown wrote in message > >news:MPG.1596f7bf42452aaa98c49f@news.mindspring.com... > >> It seems Flame of the West wrote in > >> rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >> >Michael Lodman wrote: > >> > > >> >> I think more likely that the immortals > >> >> didnt want to be bothered with burying mortals. > >> > > >> >Well, you know the cost of funerals these days has > >> >really gotten out of hand. But they did wind up > >> >burying four mortals at the beginning of the > >> >Fourth Age. > >> > >> Four? Are you counting the horse? > >> > >> (I know as soon as you point out the fourth, I'll kick myself.) > > > >Probably referring to Gimli. He was mortal but not *a* Mortal, > >please remember. > > I was counting Gimli as number 3, but as you point out he doesn't > qualify because he was not a mortal (noun) though he was indeed > mortal (adjective). > > Even counting him, I still see only three: Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli. > So who is the fourth? (I don't count Sam because he may never have > gone at all, despite Frodo's words, and in any event he certainly > did not go "at the beginning of the Fourth Age". It's not certain that he went, but in Appendix B it says that in 1482, "On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanorthat Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers." > > > -- > Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA > http://oakroadsystems.com > Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ > Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html > Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm > more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:56:08 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <3B2D4A21.82688084@earthlink.com> <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2E099B.BEA4D69D@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.86 X-Server-Date: 19 Jun 2001 00:54:44 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40149 It seems Flame of the West wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: > >> I don't count Sam because he may never have >> gone at all, despite Frodo's words, > >The Appendix indicates that he did go. Are you talking about the annal for SR 1482: "Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Sam-wise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens. and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers." Please note that it does not say he _did_ go, it says that a tradition was handed down to that effect. And very clearly that's a _guess_ by his daughter. She didn't go with him any further than the Tower Hills. He might simply have settled in Lindon, where he would have been in high honor among the Elves. Do you have a different quote in mind? I sure don't see any other relevant text. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:00:39 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> <3B2D9C78.ADA5B874@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.86 X-Server-Date: 19 Jun 2001 00:59:16 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40142 It seems Michael Lodman wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [about the drowning of Númenor] >This doesn't even make good literary sense. For one children make up a >significant fraction of any population, and most of them would have no >point of view. For two, only in such a limited world would populations side >so significantly for one side or the other. Most people are generally just >trying to get by. I take your point about the children, but not about the adults. All adults in WW3 Germany who were not actively working against Hitler, but just "trying to get by", were aiding him. "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing", someone once said. The people who acquiesced in the turn of events in Númenor bore moral responsibility for it, I believe. >I believe that Tolkien's god and the Ainur are rather bloodthirsty. This >fits with the other known Atlantis tales, but limits the moral quality of >the Ainur. Everyone must with your characterization of Tolkien' own God, as even a casual reading of the Old Testament will attest. But don't blame the drowning of Númenor on the Ainur. That was Eru's doing alone. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:03:51 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.86 X-Server-Date: 19 Jun 2001 01:02:27 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40146 It seems David Salo wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > >> Therefore all the people left on the island were part of Sauron's >> religion and rebels against the Valar, with the possible exception >> of Queen Miriel. > > That's extremely dubious both ways. It's like saying "everyone in Nazi >Germany was a committed Nazi, because anyone who didn't agree with the >Nazis could have emigrated" -- which is of course not true. No, it's like saying "They could have joined the underground resistance, or of course they could have not let him come to power in the first place." (I do recognize that it's easy to say that, sitting in my comfortable chair. I hope I am never faced with such a terrible choice myself. I don't know if I would have the courage to do the right thing -- but if not I would at least have the honesty to know I was doing the wrong thing because I was afraid, and not try to claim any sort of moral virtue.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:06:42 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> <9gluhi$9n83v$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.86 X-Server-Date: 19 Jun 2001 01:05:18 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40159 It seems Morgil Blackhope wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >On the other hand, Shadowfax was practically married to Gandalf, Now _there's_ an image I'm going to have to burn out of my brain! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Jun 2001 03:31:20 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010618233120.06265.00002294@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40068 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >No, it's like saying "They could have joined the underground >resistance, or of course they could have not let him come to power >in the first place." > >(I do recognize that it's easy to say that, sitting in my >comfortable chair. I hope I am never faced with such a terrible >choice myself. I don't know if I would have the courage to do the >right thing -- but if not I would at least have the honesty to know >I was doing the wrong thing because I was afraid, and not try to >claim any sort of moral virtue.) A nice fresh breath of honesty. I, too, would like to think I would do something. But I cannot in all honesty say I would. I think, at least, I would not actively participate. Anyone who *knows* what they would do are full of shit. Russ ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Jun 2001 03:31:20 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010618233120.06265.00002295@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40069 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Please note that it does not say he _did_ go, it says that a >tradition was handed down to that effect. And very clearly that's a >_guess_ by his daughter. She didn't go with him any further than the >Tower Hills. He might simply have settled in Lindon, where he would >have been in high honor among the Elves. > >Do you have a different quote in mind? I sure don't see any other >relevant text. That's your argument? Then throw away all the texts because, according to Tolkien, they are all inherited traditions. Russ ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Jun 2001 03:31:20 GMT References: <3B2EA13F.E1511EB9@home.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010618233120.06265.00002296@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40070 In article <3B2EA13F.E1511EB9@home.com>, Khab writes: >It's not certain that he went, but in Appendix B it says that in 1482, "On >September >22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and >is last >seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the >Fairbairns. >Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanorthat Samwise passed the >Towers, >and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers." > Which is especially important because 'intra-story' Elanor wrote that passage. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:40:35 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <20010618233120.06265.00002295@nso-fo.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.6b X-Server-Date: 19 Jun 2001 13:39:09 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40152 It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>Please note that it does not say he _did_ go, it says that a >>tradition was handed down to that effect. And very clearly that's a >>_guess_ by his daughter. She didn't go with him any further than the >>Tower Hills. He might simply have settled in Lindon, where he would >>have been in high honor among the Elves. >> >>Do you have a different quote in mind? I sure don't see any other >>relevant text. > >That's your argument? Then throw away all the texts because, according to >Tolkien, they are all inherited traditions. First, the text _itself_ casts doubt whether Sam went. The idea that he passed over Sea is presented as a nice possibility, not as something that definitely happened -- and it is so presented in the text. I think you are overlooking an important distinction here. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, at least, are supposed to be translations of many-times-copied manuscripts. The things that happen "on stage" are attested to, within that context. The things reported as "traditions" are guesses reported but not attested by the chroniclers. To put it in modern terminology, it's the difference between eyewitness testimony and an urban legend. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:58:17 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9go0ij$mel$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010618200340.03236.00002878@nso-fc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o117.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992970131 22997 212.205.252.117 (19 Jun 2001 17:02:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:02:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40045 Russ wrote in message news:20010618200340.03236.00002878@nso-fc.aol.com... > In article <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" > writes: > > > >I'm not at all certain we should think that Shadowfax was brought by > >Gandalf to Aman. > > > >This bit of information is in the Epilogue which Tolkien *rejected*. > > Tolkien didn't reject it...the publishers did. Tolkien accepted the book being published without the epilogue. And in the second edition he didn't put the epilogue back in. Whether this was at reviewer's advice or not seems to me to not change the fact that he *did* reject it. > He confirmed it in a later Letter, btw. Okay, then. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:01:43 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9go0ot$mjf$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o117.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 992970334 23151 212.205.252.117 (19 Jun 2001 17:05:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:05:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!195.64.68.27!newsgate.cistron.nl!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40047 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:rJvX6.6110$LA1.627041@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Aris Katsaris" wrote > > A: Tolkien indicated that he liked the Epilogue but that it was > 'universally condemned' by the people he asked to review the > texts. As such, it seems not so much 'rejected' by Tolkien as > 'left out' at the suggestion of others. Same thing, really... I've betaread stories of friends, and occasionally suggested the removal of things. When they do remove them it's they who "reject them" even if it's because of my advice that they decide to do so.... But this seems to be semantics to me. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Jim Deutch" <103134.3516@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:43:49 -0400 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9gq9ti$rg6$1@suaar1ac.prod.compuserve.com> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <20010617111723.01871.00001362@nso-md.aol.com> <3B2CF20C.5ACD1EED@home.com> <9gj9d4$145$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com> <9gkvdq$2g13$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> <3B2E1BF0.BBC6CE91@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hil-qbu-ptk-vty5.as.wcom.net X-Trace: suaar1ac.prod.compuserve.com 993045234 28166 206.175.106.5 (20 Jun 2001 13:53:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jun 2001 13:53:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40150 "Michael Lodman" wrote in message news:3B2E1BF0.BBC6CE91@home.com... > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > "Michael Lodman" wrote in message > > news:3B2D4770.CD85AFB3@home.com... > > > > > > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > If we are to remove the half-elves, then we have one elf (Luthien) > > becoming > > > > human, and one human (Tuor) becoming an elf... > > > > > > Tuor is an unknown. Luthien is a known. There is a big difference. > > > > Not really. > > Ooookaaayyy. I mean really, if there is no difference between known and > unknown, what more can be said? Hmm... I don't know. Jim Deutch ###### From: Skylar Thompson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:00:39 -0500 Organization: UTUMNO Lines: 29 Sender: skylar@utumno.attglobal.net Message-ID: <3B2F9347.18738AAD@utumno.attglobal.net> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> <3B2D9C78.ADA5B874@home.com> Reply-To: skylar@attglobal.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, es NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.100.182.24 X-Trace: 19 Jun 2001 20:16:13 GMT, 32.100.182.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news3.prserv.net!rhino_house.attglobal.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40094 Stan Brown wrote: > > It seems Michael Lodman wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > [about the drowning of Númenor] > >This doesn't even make good literary sense. For one children make up a > >significant fraction of any population, and most of them would have no > >point of view. For two, only in such a limited world would populations side > >so significantly for one side or the other. Most people are generally just > >trying to get by. > > I take your point about the children, but not about the adults. All > adults in WW3 Germany who were not actively working against Hitler, ^^^ > but just "trying to get by", were aiding him. "Evil flourishes when > good men do nothing", someone once said. The people who acquiesced > in the turn of events in Númenor bore moral responsibility for it, I > believe. Wow. I must really have fallen asleep in history class to have missed a World War. :) -- --Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net) `All that is gold does not glitter/Not all those who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.' ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:15:36 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20010618233120.06265.00002295@nso-fo.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.c8 X-Server-Date: 19 Jun 2001 20:14:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40151 It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>Please note that it does not say he _did_ go, it says that a >>tradition was handed down to that effect. And very clearly that's a >>_guess_ by his daughter. She didn't go with him any further than the >>Tower Hills. He might simply have settled in Lindon, where he would >>have been in high honor among the Elves. >That's your argument? Then throw away all the texts because, according to >Tolkien, they are all inherited traditions. Funny -- Steuard and I said essentially the same thing, yet you did not make any reply like the above to him. I wonder why that is. Have you not yet seen his article? Or have you perhaps decided that the sarcasm was unwarranted? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9gjc8k$2fg$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010617230414.28252.00007994@nso-mq.aol.com> <3B2DA131.2A51DC48@earthlink.com> <9glv8f$hmq$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <9go0ot$mjf$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: The gift Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:30:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 992986220 12.79.28.214 (Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:30:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:30:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40029 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:9go0ot$mjf$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > Same thing, really... I've betaread stories of friends, and > occasionally suggested the removal of things. When they do > remove them it's they who "reject them" even if it's because of > my advice that they decide to do so.... > But this seems to be semantics to me. It is... but there is a minor point of importance here. There was a question in your original post over whether JRRT 'rejected' the Epilogue because he 'rejected' some of the concepts in it (such as Shadowfax going to Aman). Since we know that he 'left out' the Epilogue because others urged him to do so, and said even afterward that he liked it himself it seems clear that the 'rejection' was not a denial of the ideas in the Epilogue, but of the inclusion of them in the published work. That said.... there are the other evidences I quoted that Tolkien really did intend that Shadowfax go. ###### From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: 20 Jun 2001 14:45:14 +0200 Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9gq5sq$ldo$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 993041114 27847 129.13.201.66 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40141 Stan Brown wrote: >It seems David Salo wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>In article , >>brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >> >>> Therefore all the people left on the island were part of Sauron's >>> religion and rebels against the Valar, with the possible exception >>> of Queen Miriel. >> That's extremely dubious both ways. It's like saying "everyone in Nazi >>Germany was a committed Nazi, because anyone who didn't agree with the >>Nazis could have emigrated" -- which is of course not true. >No, it's like saying "They could have joined the underground >resistance, or of course they could have not let him come to power >in the first place." >(I do recognize that it's easy to say that, sitting in my >comfortable chair. To get a feeling how it feels in such a situation, I very much recommend Sebastian Haffner's personal account "Geschichte eines Deutschen. Die Erinnerungen eines Deutschen 1914-1933". Absolutely chilling, and it answers the question "how could that happen" very well. I'm not sure it has come out in Englisch yet, though. ###### Lines: 30 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 20 Jun 2001 14:46:24 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010620104624.14008.00000160@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40065 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >It seems Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>In article , >>brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >> >>>Please note that it does not say he _did_ go, it says that a >>>tradition was handed down to that effect. And very clearly that's a >>>_guess_ by his daughter. She didn't go with him any further than the >>>Tower Hills. He might simply have settled in Lindon, where he would >>>have been in high honor among the Elves. > >>That's your argument? Then throw away all the texts because, according to >>Tolkien, they are all inherited traditions. > >Funny -- Steuard and I said essentially the same thing, yet you did >not make any reply like the above to him. I wonder why that is. Have >you not yet seen his article? Or have you perhaps decided that the >sarcasm was unwarranted? I didn't notice Steuard's article. Or maybe I did but it took so long for him to make his point that I gave up and replied to your message. See I can be sarcastic to Steuard too! Anyway, no offense was intended. Sorry. Russ ###### From: "voravor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> Subject: Re: The gift Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:45:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.65.6.72 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 993109523 66.65.6.72 (Thu, 21 Jun 2001 03:45:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 03:45:23 EDT Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!nyccyc01!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40216 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.15986efe4021fa7398c4c1@news.mindspring.com... > (I do recognize that it's easy to say that, sitting in my > comfortable chair. I hope I am never faced with such a terrible > choice myself. I don't know if I would have the courage to do the > right thing -- but if not I would at least have the honesty to know > I was doing the wrong thing because I was afraid, and not try to > claim any sort of moral virtue.) > "we can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order...There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means..." vora ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:42:49 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.3c X-Server-Date: 21 Jun 2001 23:43:18 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41234 It seems voravor wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >"Stan Brown" wrote in message >news:MPG.15986efe4021fa7398c4c1@news.mindspring.com... >> (I do recognize that it's easy to say that, sitting in my >> comfortable chair. I hope I am never faced with such a terrible >> choice myself. I don't know if I would have the courage to do the >> right thing -- but if not I would at least have the honesty to know >> I was doing the wrong thing because I was afraid, and not try to >> claim any sort of moral virtue.) >> > >"we can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring >maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: >Knowledge, Rule, Order...There need not be, there would not be, any real >change in our designs, only in our means..." I'm trying to work out how that has any relation to what I said, or to the portion that you quoted, but I can't. Saruman was arguing for collaborationism as a positive good. I was arguing against it, arguing in favor of underground resistance in fact, but admitting that I might not have the physical courage to do it if put to the test. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Vora Vor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B2C4711.AFA4CFE0@home.com> <3B2CF18E.6DC2EB6B@home.com> <9gj158$urb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3B2D46D9.6BD9982C@home.com> Subject: Re: The gift Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:07:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.213.63.10 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: monger.newsread.com 993229653 216.213.63.10 (Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:07:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:07:33 EDT Organization: Thorn Communications (thorn.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!POSTED.monger.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:41029 well, that is what i meant. i was using the quote as a backdrop. however, while saruman may have been trying to convince gandalf of the expediency of collaborating, he certainly did not believe there would be any "team". gandalf would be forced, in saruman's designs, to abide while he (gandalf) became a passive agent of evil. in the unlikely event that he did assent to turning the Ring over and adopt saruman's agenda, he may very well have, as gandalf the grey indeed was, been lulled by saruman into accepting evils done by the way. some who tolerate incremental increases in oppression feel they are not passive observers, that they are in fact outraged, that they would (and are) "doing" simply by being outraged, shaking their heads at the headlines, at the assasinations, whatever. many in america are of this model. eventually, people build up an immunity of defense mechanisms that inure them to increasing amounts of evil they will permit. There is an asymptotic relation between the vanishing point of individual political action and the amount oppressors will commit, and the latter are well aware of that point. it is part of their palette of political instinct. for an individual to surmount that point takes enormous inertia. vora > I'm trying to work out how that has any relation to what I said, or > to the portion that you quoted, but I can't. > > Saruman was arguing for collaborationism as a positive good. I was > arguing against it, arguing in favor of underground resistance in > fact, but admitting that I might not have the physical courage to do > it if put to the test. > ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The gift References: <20010620104624.14008.00000160@nso-fo.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 993535833 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:10:33 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:10:33 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: tHVZ6-13205-Y4-3301@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ef743e78 f3e51ef3 aa257557 bbb87271 df059d29 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:10:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40686 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in article <20010620104624.14008.00000160@nso-fo.aol.com>: > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >Funny -- Steuard and I said essentially the same thing, yet you did > >not make any reply like the above to him. > I didn't notice Steuard's article. Or maybe I did but it took so > long for him to make his point that I gave up and replied to your > message. Touche. :) But actually, my earlier article was surprisingly short... for me, anyway. It must have slipped by. (Just as well, though, as I skipped town shortly after posting it.) Steuard Jensen ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 26 Jun 2001 14:35:38 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The gift Message-ID: <20010626103538.21495.00001206@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:40731 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in article ><20010620104624.14008.00000160@nso-fo.aol.com>: >> brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >> >Funny -- Steuard and I said essentially the same thing, yet you did >> >not make any reply like the above to him. > >> I didn't notice Steuard's article. Or maybe I did but it took so >> long for him to make his point that I gave up and replied to your >> message. > >Touche. :) But actually, my earlier article was surprisingly >short... for me, anyway. It must have slipped by. (Just as well, >though, as I skipped town shortly after posting it.) > I'm glad someone around here can take a joke. Russ