From: "Charlie Bishop" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: new to the LoTR books Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:35:13 -0230 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.128.1.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 991623242 209.128.1.3 (Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:54:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:54:02 EDT Organization: Bell Nexxia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!torn!news-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!209.128.1.3!142.163.74.74 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38258 Hello there :) names Charlie... many of my friends have read the Lord of The Rings books and so has my father so I knew what they were.. and when I heard about the movies coming out I decided it was probably best to read the books first so I knew what was going on... I have two chapters to go and I'll be finished the second volume "the two towers" ... I love it! :) but I was wondering if some people could clarify some things for me... like why Sauron needs the ring? I've seen so far that his power is unmatched and that he has a large army... can't he dominate without it? Im a little curious about that.. and about the ring wraiths... the Nazgul I believe they are called.. like where did they come from ? but please.. dont give anything away that I may read in the third book :) thanks. :) - Charlie ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: new to the LoTR books Date: 04 Jun 2001 12:19:33 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Message-ID: <6uk82sczt6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991649973 398 10.0.3.2 (4 Jun 2001 10:19:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 2001 10:19:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38287 "Charlie Bishop" writes: > Hello there :) names Charlie... many of my friends have read the Lord of The > Rings books and so has my father so I knew what they were.. and when I heard > about the movies coming out I decided it was probably best to read the books > first so I knew what was going on... Good Idea. To all the film critics in this group: see, the film is making people read. > I have two chapters to go and I'll be > finished the second volume "the two towers" ... I love it! :) No, problem, as both quetions are answered in what you have already read. > wondering if some people could clarify some things for me... like why Sauron > needs the ring? I've seen so far that his power is unmatched and that he has > a large army... can't he dominate without it? Im a little curious about Re-read the first volume, Book I, chapter II, The Shadow of the Past. Gangalf explains exactly that to Frodo. > that.. and about the ring wraiths... the Nazgul I believe they are called.. > like where did they come from ? Also first volume, I strongly assume, but I can't find the passage quickly. Basically they were great humans that Sauron enslaved by giving some of the magic rings to them. Also made then near-immortal, but a the very high price of "stretching" then, so that they became invisible - wraiths. > but please.. dont give anything away that I may read in the third book :) Thae a good bit of advice: do not read any other posts here, until you are through the books. Details are discussed without any respect for the few newbies that have not read all. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: new to the LoTR books Message-ID: <3b1ba536.9550787@news.powersurfr.com> References: <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:14:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 991667609 24.108.184.50 (Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:13:29 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:13:29 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!64.86.63.5.MISMATCH!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38297 On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:35:13 -0230, "Charlie Bishop" wrote, in part: >like why Sauron >needs the ring? It has been explained in the part that you've read so far that Sauron put much of himself and his power into the ring. So if he regains the ring, his power would be increased. But you're correct that this isn't really enough, since he seems to be powerful enough. But even in the first book, Gandalf's objectives in sending Frodo to Mordor with the ring are clear enough; he hopes that destroying the ring won't simply eliminate Sauron's chance to _increase_ his power, but will actually _decrease_ his power; the very existence of the ring, even not in Sauron's hands, contributes to Sauron's well-being. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/frhome.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: new to the LoTR books Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:17:03 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.71 X-Server-Date: 4 Jun 2001 22:16:34 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38514 [cc'd to previous poster; please follow up in newsgroup] It seems Charlie Bishop wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Hello there :) names Charlie... many of my friends have read the Lord of The >Rings books and so has my father so I knew what they were.. and when I heard >about the movies coming out I decided it was probably best to read the books >first so I knew what was going on... Welcome! AFTER you've read through to the end, you may like to have a look at the FAQs (URL below). But read the books first, so you don't have any of the surprises spoiled. In fact, while you are very welcome here you might want to _not_ read this newsgroup until you have read /Lord of the Rings/ through. We all assume everyone has read it, so we don't worry about "spoilers" (revealing plot points). But you should have the pleasure of seeing the plot unfold, with all its twists, just as Tolkien planned it. (From all I hear, reading the books may be a hindrance to understanding the movie, alas.) >I have two chapters to go and I'll be >finished the second volume "the two towers" ... I love it! :) but I was >wondering if some people could clarify some things for me... like why Sauron >needs the ring? I've seen so far that his power is unmatched and that he has >a large army... can't he dominate without it? As long as the Ring exists "quiescent" as it were, he fears no rival in Middle-earth. But when the Ring comes to the notice of the Wise, he must get hold of it to prevent some Man or Elf or Wizard getting hold of it and challenging him for the mastery. Also, just for spite: If he has the One Ring he can undo all the good the Elves did with the Three, since all the other Rings are subject to the one. > and about the ring wraiths... the Nazgul I believe they are called.. >like where did they come from ? >but please.. dont give anything away that I may read in the third book :) Actually, this was answered in the _first_ book.(*) It's okay that you missed it -- one reason Tolkien is great is that on every re- reading you see more things you didn't see before. The Nazgūl were originally nine Men to whom Sauron gave nine Rings that he had captured in his war on the Elves in the Second Age, about 5000 years before the action of /Lord of the Rings/. The Nine, like the One Ring, eventually convert their users to wraiths. So the Nazgūl are thousands of years old but not actually dead. The Nazgūl, having become wraiths, were under the domination of their Rings. Since Sauron had the One Ring in the Second Age, he used it to dominate the Nazgūl through their Rings. In fact, at the time of the LotR he actually holds the Nine Rings, so the Nazgūl are completely subservient to him, like drug addicts and religious fanatics rolled into one. (*) Especially in "The Council of Elrond" chapter. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: new to the LoTR books Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:21:58 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3> <3b1ba536.9550787@news.powersurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.71 X-Server-Date: 4 Jun 2001 22:21:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38498 [cc'd to previous poster; please follow up in newsgroup] It seems John Savard wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:35:13 -0230, "Charlie Bishop" > wrote, in part: > >>like why Sauron needs the ring? > >It has been explained in the part that you've read so far that Sauron >put much of himself and his power into the ring. > >So if he regains the ring, his power would be increased. > >But you're correct that this isn't really enough, since he seems to be >powerful enough. He needs to get hold of it so that no one _else_ can get it and use it against him. >But even in the first book, Gandalf's objectives in sending Frodo to >Mordor with the ring are clear enough; he hopes that destroying the >ring won't simply eliminate Sauron's chance to _increase_ his power, >but will actually _decrease_ his power; the very existence of the >ring, even not in Sauron's hands, contributes to Sauron's well-being. I agree with the latter part, but I question "he hopes". Gandalf is _certain_ that destroying the Ring will diminish Sauron permanently to virtually nothing. The clearest quote is from /The Return of the King/, but does not reveal any plot point, so I'll quote it here: "If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: new to the LoTR books Message-ID: References: <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 36 Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:26:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 991707969 208.170.95.74 (Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:26:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:26:09 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!newspeer2.tds.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38531 In article <3b1af96d.0@209.128.1.3>, "Charlie Bishop" wrote: > Hello there :) names Charlie... many of my friends have read the Lord of The > Rings books and so has my father so I knew what they were.. and when I heard > about the movies coming out I decided it was probably best to read the books > first so I knew what was going on... I have two chapters to go and I'll be > finished the second volume "the two towers" ... I love it! :) Good luck! Keep on reading! > but I was > wondering if some people could clarify some things for me... like why Sauron > needs the ring? I've seen so far that his power is unmatched and that he has > a large army... can't he dominate without it? Sure, he can dominate without it and as you can see he's doing pretty well without it so far. But the Ring is like da Bomb... while Sauron doesn't need it to win, he sure doesn't want his enemies to get hold of it! > Im a little curious about > that.. and about the ring wraiths... the Nazgul I believe they are called.. > like where did they come from ? Gandalf hinted at them in _The Shadow of the Past_, talking about the Rings in the poem "Three Rings for the Elven-kings...": he said "Nine (Rings) he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants." If you keep reading you'll find out a bit more about them. > but please.. dont give anything away that I may read in the third book :) I've tried not to. I hope you enjoy it a lot! David Salo