From: "Jamie Armstrong" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:29:37 +0100 Lines: 74 Message-ID: <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-156.hawaii.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 991261828 7120 62.137.62.156 (30 May 2001 22:30:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2001 22:30:28 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:37594 "Pythoness" wrote in message news:290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com... > In article > , Robert > Whelan wrote: > > I suspect PJ thinks he's giving people what they want/expect, and I > imagine he's right in a large number of cases--a lot of folks around > here are very happy with the "look." > > I'm not --it doesn't look right or classy to me in many of the > stills and brief trailers I've seen, but it's personal taste, and I > accept that, if grumpily. :-) > > And I think *practical* (to respond to your other post) is exactly > what's missing in the armor--it doesn't look functional, and it's a > sticking point for me (I like arms & armor). I do agree. My own view of armour in Middle Earth is that it is not particularly common, but that those who do wear armour wear chainmail, definitely not plate armour. Plate armour *looks* 'good' (I mean it's appearance is more dramatic than mail), but is not very practical. Helmets would be very simple, nosepieces being about as advanced as they get (except in the case of the Minas Tirith guard, who would have cheekpieces instead. And those wings...). I think that only a few of the Gondorian units would have a standard uniform: the citadel guard and Prince Imrahil's knights for example. The rest would be similar within their units (but not the same) and differing quite widely between units. Most would be generally well equipped although those troops from the outlying areas of Gondor would probably be without armour. Most would have a shield and helmet, and all would have a weapon (sword, bow, axe) Likewise for the Rohirrim: all would have swords and spears, a few would have bows, most shields and helmets, but I think only the king's bodyguard, and the leaders of each eored would have mail. The Rohirrim are essentially farmers, and I don't think that mail would be available to any but high status individuals (this also applies to the Gondorian units). Helmets would be very simply. Among the forces of Mordor things would be a lot more chaotic, IMO. Only the army from Minas Morgul would I feel be well equipped: all in black, each armed with a sword, shield, helmet, and some with armour. The Southrons would be fairly well equipped, though not as well as the Minas Morgul force, most lacking armour, and some lacking shields and helms. The Orcs I feel would be extremely poorly equipped indeed: the vast majority would be lucky if they had a weapon, and what weapons were available would be completely randomised, depending on what each Orc could plunder from victims. A few would have shields or helmets, and a lucky Orc would have mail, but only the Orc captains would have any real armour (shield, helm and mail). Basically, I don't think that Sauron would have gone to any effort to provide his Orcs with any equipment at all. I envisage his attitude of being something like that of the Russian generals in both world wars: if you don't have a weapon then wait until your comrade who has got one gets killed and then use his. Sauron would aim to use sheer force of numbers to overwhelm the West, knowing that he comfortably outnumbers his opponents. The Witch King, having fought against the Numenoreans long ago, would probably want to have a more effective fighting force, and one that looks impressive, so that is why I think he would be likely to have his own army well equipped. The Southrons would have been equipped by their own kings. I'd be curious to know what other people imagine when they think of the armies of the late Third Age. Jamie ###### From: ds50.geo@yahoo.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Date: 30 May 2001 17:43:24 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7a9edd20.0105301643.20f9c7ef@posting.google.com> References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.54.63.151 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 991269805 6225 127.0.0.1 (31 May 2001 00:43:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2001 00:43:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:37659 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message news:<9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>... > > I'd be curious to know what other people imagine when they think of the > armies of the late Third Age. > Your suppositions sound about right. Another point to add: I'm pretty sure that the knights of Dol Amroth were described as weaing mail, so plate armor was likely unknown in ME. ###### From: "Ashford Wyrd" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 01:45:33 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:37637 > I do agree. My own view of armour in Middle Earth is that it is not > particularly common, but that those who do wear armour wear chainmail, > definitely not plate armour. Plate armour *looks* 'good' (I mean it's > appearance is more dramatic than mail), but is not very practical. Helmets > would be very simple, nosepieces being about as advanced as they get (except > in the case of the Minas Tirith guard, who would have cheekpieces instead. > And those wings...). I disagree with you on only one point... Plate mail IS practical, but only with padding underneath (always pad under any hard armor).... even chain mail requires at least a layer of leather to keep from gouging the wearers flesh. However, plate mail in ME is practically unheard of, for the reason that most cultures haven't developed to the point of inventing it yet. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) References: <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: Europa From: ronc@pacifier.com (Ron Christian) NNTP-Posting-Host: thetics.europa.com Message-ID: <3b167fc4@news.nwlink.com> Date: 31 May 2001 10:30:44 -0700 X-Trace: 31 May 2001 10:30:44 -0700, thetics.europa.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!news.nwlink.com!ronc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:37567 In article , Ashford Wyrd wrote: > However, plate mail in ME is practically unheard of, for the reason >that most cultures haven't developed to the point of inventing it yet. From an historical viewpoint, yes, but since it's a fantasy, it only has to be internally consistent. For another example, there is plate mail in some of Howard's Conan stories, which were supposed to have happened before recorded history. An internally consistent explanation might be that the technology was developed during that time frame, and later lost. It's happened before. Ron -- [www.europa.com/~ronc] "I think he's injured." "He said 'not' at the end of a sentence. He deserves to be injured." ###### From: "Jamie Armstrong" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:36:52 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9f66i6$qlh$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <3b167fc4@news.nwlink.com> <9f665m$2hukp$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-96.idaho.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 991337862 27313 62.137.63.96 (31 May 2001 19:37:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2001 19:37:42 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:37714 "Andrew Wells" wrote in message news:9f665m$2hukp$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de... > You could always join the Tolkien Society, buy back issue 68 of "Amon Hen", > and read my article "Armour in the Third Age" ... > Well I already am a (very lazy!) member, but as I only joined a few years back, my collection of Amon Hen's doesn't go quite that far back :( I shall try and get hold of a copy though. Jamie ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <1_RR6.57068$t12.4573071@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:24:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 991423485 12.79.28.167 (Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:24:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:24:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:37698 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message news:9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk... > Helmets would be very simple, nosepieces being about as advanced as > they get (except in the case of the Minas Tirith guard, who would > have cheekpieces instead. The dragon helm of Dor-Lomin was said to have been visored like other Dwarven helms (reportedly arising from the need to shield their faces from the heat of the forges); "And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Turin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet." UT, Narn I Hin Hurin - Appendix > The Orcs I feel would be extremely poorly equipped indeed: the vast > majority would be lucky if they had a weapon, and what weapons were > available would be completely randomised, depending on what each > Orc could plunder from victims. A few would have shields or > helmets, and a lucky Orc would have mail, but only the Orc captains > would have any real armour (shield, helm and mail). > Basically, I don't think that Sauron would have gone to any effort > to provide his Orcs with any equipment at all. Melkor and Sauron were both said to have had great smithies... Saruman did at Orthanc as well. Further, the Orcs were entirely capable of making their OWN armor and weapons. I think they'd be well, if crudely, equipped. > I'd be curious to know what other people imagine when they think of > the armies of the late Third Age. I generally think they would have been a little better equipped than you describe, but nowhere near what has been portrayed in the images I've seen from the film. Indeed, in the stills it seems almost as if the members of the fellowship (Frodo excluded) are the only people in M-E who AREN'T armored to the gills. ###### From: "Magnus Orest" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Lines: 83 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:05:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.64.118.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsb.telia.net 991512349 213.64.118.230 (Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:05:49 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:05:49 CEST Organization: Telia Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.rt.ru!news-stob.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!194.22.194.4.MISMATCH!masternews.telia.net.!newsb.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38053 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message news:9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk... > > I do agree. My own view of armour in Middle Earth is that it is not > particularly common, but that those who do wear armour wear chainmail, > definitely not plate armour. Plate armour *looks* 'good' (I mean it's > appearance is more dramatic than mail), but is not very practical. Well, I disagree - This is a matter of exactly WHAT we define as armour. I would in fact believe that it is very common among people who are out on the road and need some protection. Anyone can build a descent armour that will provide its bearer with some protection. It doesn't have to be plate armour or chainmail, it can be a simple vest/jacked made out of hardened leather with small plates of iron attached to it and with some padding underneath. Swords and hemlets are harder to come by however, since they need to be made by a fairly good smith in order to be reliable. But I hope we don't get to see Arwen wearing the same kind of "bikini-armour" as Lucy Lawless does in "Xena"... :-) Note - I don't consider an armour to be the same as a uniform, I find it very hard to believe that uniforms were common. > Helmets > would be very simple, nosepieces being about as advanced as they get (except > in the case of the Minas Tirith guard, who would have cheekpieces instead. > And those wings...). Funny that you brought up the "helmet-issue"... I recently surfed through the official LOTR-movie website, and when I saw the helmet worn by Eomer I almost had a heart attack... Look at the picture on this page, what IS he wearing? http://www.lordoftherings.net/film/cast/ca_kurba.html Anyway, it looks a bit too much like something you would find in "Xena" or "Hercules" for my taste... (Horrible!) IMO the Rohirrim are supposed to be very "nordic" in their appearance, and I know that Tolkien was inspired by among others ancient Scandinavia, (pre-viking age, between 550 and 800 AD, to be more specific) and artifacts from this time. Armours and helmets were in fact fairly common among those who did the fightning, but they were NOT elaborate. Helmets were usually designed with nosepieces during this time - Look here for a great shot of one of those helmets: http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/vendel/71-e.html - but little more than that. > I think that only a few of the Gondorian units would have a standard > uniform: the citadel guard and Prince Imrahil's knights for example. The > rest would be similar within their units (but not the same) and differing > quite widely between units. Most would be generally well equipped although > those troops from the outlying areas of Gondor would probably be without > armour. Most would have a shield and helmet, and all would have a weapon > (sword, bow, axe) I agree - The citadel guard of Minas Tirith is another question - There are some statements that briefly describe the uniforms they wear, and I can accept that they are though of as very elaborate by the production team, since Gondor is a former "superpower" that used to be the mightiest of all countries in Middle-Earth, probably meaning a big ego and a desire to look more extravagant than others... :-) > Basically, I don't think that Sauron would have gone to any effort to > provide his Orcs with any equipment at all. I envisage his attitude of being > something like that of the Russian generals in both world wars: if you don't > have a weapon then wait until your comrade who has got one gets killed and > then use his. Sauron would aim to use sheer force of numbers to overwhelm > the West, knowing that he comfortably outnumbers his opponents. Yes, but don't forget that Sauron had unlimited resources. When Sam searched the Cirith Ungol guard tower for equipment and armour, it seemed that his main problem was to find something that would fit Frodo and himself, that it wasn't too bulky or heavy for them to carry, and that it was in fairly good condition. If this stuff was rare among the orcs, he probably wouldn't have found anything that suited them. -- Regards, Magnus Orest -- http://www.orest.nu/ -- mailto:Magnus@orest.nu ###### Message-ID: <3B1BA464.8904C7DF@uchicago.edu> From: Roberto Ullfig Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 88 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.0.36 X-Trace: uchinews 991667300 128.135.0.36 (Mon, 04 Jun 2001 10:08:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 10:08:20 CDT X-SessionID: EvNS6-32898-I4-16760@uchinews X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: d933b2da adb413a7 4f992a82 d247c58e ad530b2d Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 10:08:20 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:38292 Jamie Armstrong wrote: > > "Pythoness" wrote in message > news:290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com... > > In article > > , Robert > > Whelan wrote: > > > > I suspect PJ thinks he's giving people what they want/expect, and I > > imagine he's right in a large number of cases--a lot of folks around > > here are very happy with the "look." > > > > I'm not --it doesn't look right or classy to me in many of the > > stills and brief trailers I've seen, but it's personal taste, and I > > accept that, if grumpily. :-) > > > > And I think *practical* (to respond to your other post) is exactly > > what's missing in the armor--it doesn't look functional, and it's a > > sticking point for me (I like arms & armor). > > I do agree. My own view of armour in Middle Earth is that it is not > particularly common, but that those who do wear armour wear chainmail, > definitely not plate armour. Plate armour *looks* 'good' (I mean it's > appearance is more dramatic than mail), but is not very practical. Helmets > would be very simple, nosepieces being about as advanced as they get (except > in the case of the Minas Tirith guard, who would have cheekpieces instead. > And those wings...). > > I think that only a few of the Gondorian units would have a standard > uniform: the citadel guard and Prince Imrahil's knights for example. The > rest would be similar within their units (but not the same) and differing > quite widely between units. Most would be generally well equipped although > those troops from the outlying areas of Gondor would probably be without > armour. Most would have a shield and helmet, and all would have a weapon > (sword, bow, axe) > > Likewise for the Rohirrim: all would have swords and spears, a few would > have bows, most shields and helmets, but I think only the king's bodyguard, > and the leaders of each eored would have mail. The Rohirrim are essentially > farmers, and I don't think that mail would be available to any but high > status individuals (this also applies to the Gondorian units). Helmets would > be very simply. > > Among the forces of Mordor things would be a lot more chaotic, IMO. Only the > army from Minas Morgul would I feel be well equipped: all in black, each > armed with a sword, shield, helmet, and some with armour. > > The Southrons would be fairly well equipped, though not as well as the Minas > Morgul force, most lacking armour, and some lacking shields and helms. > > The Orcs I feel would be extremely poorly equipped indeed: the vast majority > would be lucky if they had a weapon, and what weapons were available would > be completely randomised, depending on what each Orc could plunder from > victims. A few would have shields or helmets, and a lucky Orc would have > mail, but only the Orc captains would have any real armour (shield, helm and > mail). > > Basically, I don't think that Sauron would have gone to any effort to > provide his Orcs with any equipment at all. I envisage his attitude of being > something like that of the Russian generals in both world wars: if you don't > have a weapon then wait until your comrade who has got one gets killed and > then use his. Sauron would aim to use sheer force of numbers to overwhelm > the West, knowing that he comfortably outnumbers his opponents. > > The Witch King, having fought against the Numenoreans long ago, would > probably want to have a more effective fighting force, and one that looks > impressive, so that is why I think he would be likely to have his own army > well equipped. The Southrons would have been equipped by their own kings. > > I'd be curious to know what other people imagine when they think of the > armies of the late Third Age. > Interesting thoughts, fairly close to mine (btw, agree with your Sting remarks); however, as for the Witch King, I can't see him interested in such logistical detail. His leading an Army was a very atypical event to begin with. The Wraiths were not generally speaking Generals at this time though they probably were many many years ago. I see their interest in mundane matters to be very low. For example, I take the implication that it was the Mouth of Sauron who was to rule from Isengard instead of the Witch King as significant in this matter. The Witch King did not have enough independance to act as a proper General - he was just a tool. I view Minas Morgul more as a haunt than a fortress. -- Roberto Ullfig : robo@suba.com ###### From: "Adam" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3B137EA2.E88FD6F8@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> <290520011327019211%zigi@ravenland.com> <9f3sa4$6ug$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Subject: Re: A few thoughts on armour (was Re: Ugly Swords & Armour in LOTR film) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:19:04 +0100 Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: clara.net http://www.clara.net/ Message-ID: <992175331.701105@dionysos> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.132.88 Lines: 15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: 7e0798b2f860618408007c0ad86056784e7ae144506042178e01960d3b2364e3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dionysos.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:39039 "Ashford Wyrd" wrote in message news:thbq5o2qjgkr5a@corp.supernews.com... > I disagree with you on only one point... Plate mail IS practical, but only > with padding underneath (always pad under any hard armor).... even chain > mail requires at least a layer of leather to keep from gouging the wearers > flesh. However, plate mail in ME is practically unheard of, for the reason > that most cultures haven't developed to the point of inventing it yet. Didn't the Haradrim wear gold plate armour?