From: "Peter Wilson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Moria Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:16:09 +1200 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p35-max2.dun.ihug.co.nz X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 988625757 14763 203.173.236.99 (30 Apr 2001 10:15:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:15:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp-relay.ihug.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35051 Hi I am new to this newsgroup and I have a number of questions about Moria. In LoTR Chapter 4, A journey in the dark Gimli asks Gandalf about gold and jewels in Moria. Gandalf replies "No. The Orcs have plundered Moria; there is nothing left in the upper halls. And since the dwarves fled no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear. What is this shadow of fear. I presume this is something to do with the Balrog's influence. What was answering Pippin when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt this was the Balrog. What was it down there? In Fangorn, when Legolas and Gimli meet up with Gandalf again, they ask him about what happened after his fall at Durin's bridge. He replies "...but if there was a year to spend, I would not tell you all." This statement suggests that whatever he found down there, it wasn't to be repeated. Throughout the book, Gandalf speaks like this often. When Gandalf fell, he fell beyond even the deepest parts of Moria to almost another world, far below the surface. Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." What are these things? Are they creations of Morgoth that he has hidden away for eons, because Morgoth did frequent deep places in the days before Utumno and Angband. Whatever these things are, they were certainly bad because Gandalf and the Balrog, both powerful Maia, fled from them. -- Peter Wilson Wilson Web Design Websites for under $50 ! http://wilsondesign.hypermart.net/ wilsong@es.co.nz ICQ 52364674 ###### Lines: 80 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 30 Apr 2001 16:22:54 GMT References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010430122254.01779.00001129@ng-fn1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35091 >Subject: Moria >From: "Peter Wilson" wilsong@es.co.nz >Date: 4/30/01 5:16 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> > >Hi >I am new to this newsgroup and I have a number of questions about Moria. Welcome aboard and don't forget to tell your friends! :) > >In LoTR Chapter 4, A journey in the dark Gimli asks Gandalf about gold and jewels in Moria. Minor nit - it was actually Sam asking Gandalf. >Gandalf replies "No. The Orcs have plundered Moria; there is nothing left in the upper halls. And since the dwarves fled no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear. What is this shadow of fear. I presume this is something to do with the Balrog's influence. Probably, but not necessarily. Bear in mind that, with the exception of dwarves, the various races of Middle-earth generally disliked the dark and deep places of the world. They would live there when necessary - as the Elves did in Doriath and Mirkwood - but even then they spent a great deal of their time on the surface.. Even hobbits, a race that preferred "burrows" liked their tunnels to be well-lit and close to the surface and they never delved deep into the earth. I have always thought that this characteristic, coupled the terror that the Balrog inspired, was the shadow of fear that Gandalf referred to. >What was answering Pippin when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt this was the Balrog. What was it down there? We don't for sure, but since Gimli identified it as the sound of a hammer, one could assume that it was an orc sending a message to other orcs - the Moria Early Detection Alarm in action. >In Fangorn, when Legolas and Gimli meet up with Gandalf again, they ask him about what happened after his fall at Durin's bridge. He replies "...but if there was a year to spend, I would not tell you all." This statement suggests that whatever he found down there, it wasn't to be repeated. That's a novel viewpoint, at least to me. My interpretation was that the encounter and battle was so painful or traumatic for Gandalf that he would not willingly discuss it even with his friends. >Throughout the book, Gandalf speaks like this often. When Gandalf fell, he fell beyond even the deepest parts of Moria to almost another world, far below the surface. Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." What are these things? This has been discussed in this group and I know of no general consensus. One popular theory is that they are Maiar - spirits which entered the world and took physical form when it was first fashioned by the Valar. We know that Sauron originally served Aule before he was corrupted by Morgoth. If Sauron was still faithful to Aule when he entered Arda, then his name would not have been "Sauron" (which is an Elvish designation meaning "The Abhorred.") He would have become Sauron only after became Morgoth's greatest servant. Hence, Gandalf would be correct in referring to these spirits/creatures as "older than Sauron." (If any of this is unfamiliar, I recommend that you read The Silmarillion.) >Are they creations of Morgoth that he has hidden away for eons, because Morgoth did frequent deep places in the days before Utumno and Angband. No. Morgoth could not create living things; he could only corrupt beings which already existed. >Whatever these things are, they were certainly bad because Gandalf and the >Balrog, both powerful Maia, fled from them. Huh? I always read that as the Balrog was fleeing from Gandalf and neither really paid much attention to whatever had gnawed those tunnels. I also got the impression that they were rather mindless creatures - I certainly wouldn't consider a creature intelligent if it spent uncounted thousands of years gnawing at the roots of mountains! I hope this anwers a few of your questions. Mnkohrz ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <3aedb81b.23270742@news.powersurfr.com> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 10 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:09:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 988657563 24.108.184.50 (Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:06:03 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:06:03 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!news.stealth.net!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35086 On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:16:09 +1200, "Peter Wilson" wrote, in part: >Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. >Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." What are these things? Clearly, they are inspired by the Nidhogg of Norse legend. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: yeahright@whatever.com (Quendeatan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:51:38 GMT Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3af5c21e.26887111@news.erols.com> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZo7ZTDOpUUwoEahaBBbw+oWLNDmW+0QmydVCDaydE0nv2okYNbwj4u X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Apr 2001 19:57:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35065 On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:16:09 +1200, "Peter Wilson" wrote: >Hi >I am new to this newsgroup and I have a number of questions about Moria. > >In LoTR Chapter 4, A journey in the dark Gimli asks Gandalf about gold and >jewels in Moria. Gandalf replies "No. The Orcs have plundered Moria; there >is nothing left in the upper halls. And since the dwarves fled no one dares >to seek the shafts and treasuries in the deep places: they are drowned in >water- or in a shadow of fear. What is this shadow of fear. I presume this >is something to do with the Balrog's influence. What was answering Pippin >when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt this was the Balrog. What >was it down there? > >In Fangorn, when Legolas and Gimli meet up with Gandalf again, they ask him >about what happened after his fall at Durin's bridge. He replies "...but if >there was a year to spend, I would not tell you all." This statement >suggests that whatever he found down there, it wasn't to be repeated. >Throughout the book, Gandalf speaks like this often. When Gandalf fell, he >fell beyond even the deepest parts of Moria to almost another world, far >below the surface. Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. >Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." What are these things? >Are they creations of Morgoth that he has hidden away for eons, because >Morgoth did frequent deep places in the days before Utumno and Angband. >Whatever these things are, they were certainly bad because Gandalf and the >Balrog, both powerful Maia, fled from them. In my search for an answer, I have found others in council: http://imladris.net/forums/ Quendeatan ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aedb81b.23270742@news.powersurfr.com> Subject: Re: Moria Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:20:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 988665651 12.78.71.169 (Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:20:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:20:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35071 "John Savard" wrote in message news:3aedb81b.23270742@news.powersurfr.com... > "Peter Wilson" wrote, in part: >> Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. >> Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." > Clearly, they are inspired by the Nidhogg of Norse legend. Hmmm, interesting idea. The gnawing on the roots of Yggdrasil being the presumed connection. Others have suggested a Lovecraftian connection of all things. Tolkien would certainly have been familiar with Yggdrasil, but there aren't any other obvious links to prove out the concept. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3af5c21e.26887111@news.erols.com> Subject: Re: Moria Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:25:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 988665949 12.78.71.169 (Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:25:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:25:49 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35073 "Quendeatan" wrote in message news:3af5c21e.26887111@news.erols.com... > In my search for an answer, I have found others in council: > http://imladris.net/forums/ There are actually quite a few Tolkien discussion forums around these days. Almost all of them have sprung up around movie sites in the past year or so. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Moria Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <4XkH6.48806$IJ1.3700176@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:38:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 988666688 12.78.71.169 (Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:38:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:38:08 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35069 "Peter Wilson" wrote in message news:9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz... > Hi Greetings. > Gandalf replies "No. The Orcs have plundered Moria; there is > nothing left in the upper halls. And since the dwarves fled no > one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries in the deep places: > they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear." > What is this shadow of fear. A turn of phrase. I think Gandalf is simply saying that no one goes down there and providing water and fear as the reasons. As to what they might fear... "Durin's Bane" is an obvious explanation, though at that point Gandalf did not know it was a Balrog. > What was answering Pippin when he dropped the stone down the > well. Presumably an Orc, but there is no clear indication that I know of. > He replies "...but if there was a year to spend, I would not tell > you all." This statement suggests that whatever he found down > there, it wasn't to be repeated. Gandalf also says of the 'nameless things' that he will 'bring no report to darken the world above'... this could well be what he was not going to tell them. A horror they did not need to know about. > Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron > knows them not. They are older than he." What are these things? The usual suggestions are Maiar or creatures corrupted by Morgoth long ago such as those Orome once hunted on the surface of M-E. It has frequently been suggested that the Watcher in the Water might have been one of these creatures. In an earlier draft Gandalf's words were '...Sauron alone may know, or one older than he...'. Implying (to me) that they were creatures of Morgoth's. > Whatever these things are, they were certainly bad because > Gandalf and the Balrog, both powerful Maia, fled from them. Possibly, though Gandalf doesn't really say this... the Balrog's flight (as in >fleeing< not >flying<) and Gandalf's pursuit do not seem to be related to the 'Nameless Things' at all. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Moria Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:37:29 -0400 Lines: 103 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.121 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.121 Message-ID: <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Trace: 30 Apr 2001 21:39:58 -0500, 64.24.44.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@megapop.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.starnetinc.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35078 "Peter Wilson" wrote in message news:9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz... > Hi > I am new to this newsgroup and I have a number of questions about Moria. > > In LoTR Chapter 4, A journey in the dark Gimli asks Gandalf about gold and > jewels in Moria. Gandalf replies "No. The Orcs have plundered Moria; there > is nothing left in the upper halls. And since the dwarves fled no one dares > to seek the shafts and treasuries in the deep places: they are drowned in > water- or in a shadow of fear. What is this shadow of fear. I presume this > is something to do with the Balrog's influence. Yes. It was the Balrog that drove the Dwarves out of Moria, the only thing that kept them from taking it back. "Shadow of Fear" is poetic for the Balrog. (And it can't be Gimli asking; as a dwarf, Gimli knows all about Moria and its treasures. It's a hobbit asking, as usual. The hobbits ask ALL the questions when Tolkien wants to tell us something.) >What was answering Pippin > when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt this was the Balrog. What > was it down there? Could be anything. (It's a mystery to me -- has always been -- that Everything in Moria didn't know about the Invasion from the West as soon as the Watcher slammed the doors.) > In Fangorn, when Legolas and Gimli meet up with Gandalf again, they ask him > about what happened after his fall at Durin's bridge. He replies "...but if > there was a year to spend, I would not tell you all." This statement > suggests that whatever he found down there, it wasn't to be repeated. No. It just means there were a LOT of adventures, and Gandalf hasn't digested them (he was too busy to take notes) and turned them into a coherent narrative yet. Also gets Tolkien off the hook. > Throughout the book, Gandalf speaks like this often. Thereby implying that he knows more than JRRT had worked out yet. Thus he builds Gandalf up into an impossibly knowledgeable figure without actually telling us what he knows. Nifty, huh? JRRT doesn't get enough credit for his cleverness as a storyteller. (When I saw Ralph Bakshi's cartoon, my first thought was to marvel at how clever JRRT was. Bakshi got rid of all his rhythms, and ruined the story. That's when I understood how good JRRT is.) JRRT admitted he had no idea who Strider was when he first turned up (thought he was a hobbit, in fact), and he plainly has never heard of a palantir before Pippin has. Interesting to watch him concoct his effects and then scramble to produce a back-story that explains and connects them. His instincts were not perfect. His original Galadriel is a Woman Who Has Sinned And Repented, but as he fell more and more in love with her (don't we all?), he fretted about this. It was too late to rewrite the trilogy, but after it was published, every time he came back to her story, he made her less and less haughty in her youth, and less and less culpable, until she turned out all goody-goody. Ick. I like her MUCH MORE because she has not always been wise enough to shun power, but has learned (well, she's certainly had time to think it over) that it's not worth the trouble. The sadder but wiser elf for me, yes sir. >When Gandalf fell, he > fell beyond even the deepest parts of Moria to almost another world, far > below the surface. Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. > Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." What are these things? > Are they creations of Morgoth that he has hidden away for eons, because > Morgoth did frequent deep places in the days before Utumno and Angband. > Whatever these things are, they were certainly bad because Gandalf and the > Balrog, both powerful Maia, fled from them. Where does it say the Balrog is a Maia? In The Silmarillion, when Melkor/Morgoth flees from Aman to the bottom of the world to make friends with Ungoliant, the giant spider thingie, it is strongly implied that she is no creature of his but one of a whole bunch of horrors who have dwelt in the world since its beginning. Morgoth, focusing on the northern hemisphere and Getting At the Eldar, hasn't given them any thought. (Morgoth never gives anything any thought unless he can use it or destroy it. This is Tolkien's definition of an Evil Person.) If Morgoth didn't know about them, Sauron (his mere lieutenant) probably did not. Although he might have researched them to come up with things like the Steed of Angmar. I assume JRRT was scared by dinosaur skeletons as a child, same way as he never got over being bitten by a big spider. P.S. to Mnkohrz: Enjoyed your post, but the Elves who excavated Menegroth and Thranduil's Hall loved the underground every bit as much as the Dwarves did. Your problem is you've only met sylvan elves. Tsk tsk. Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### Lines: 9 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: dbarzini11@aol.com (DBarzini11) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 May 2001 04:10:51 GMT References: <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010501001051.26864.00002999@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35074 >Where does it say the Balrog is a Maia? "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." **From The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Enemies. ###### From: Pythoness Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:33:42 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking Lines: 28 Message-ID: <300420012133429427%zigi@ravenland.com> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 56k-028.efn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.efn.org!zigi Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35075 Minus major snippage: In article <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com>, A Tsar Is Born wrote: > "Peter Wilson" wrote in message > news:9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz... > >What was answering Pippin > > when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt this was the Balrog. What > > was it down there? > > Could be anything. > (It's a mystery to me -- has always been -- that Everything in Moria didn't > know about the Invasion from the West as soon as the Watcher slammed the > doors.) Well, maybe Everything *did,* and was merely biding its collective time and waiting for the most enjoyable moment to pounce (it's unlikely they were waiting for the easiest time to kill them; that probably would have been earlier or elsewhere); we really don't know (I've wondered the same thing). It's possible that the signals Pippin heard were from a spy to another, saying something like, "They're in the guardroom now. Your turn!" Or maybe it was some Thing just fooling with their heads. zg ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 00:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 12 Message-ID: <14090-3AEE41E1-230@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUArt1DjX74iGIB62UHLoSJSanM/+8CFGbEGIP/7eBV2sGuCwjX0eub2n3S Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35056 Peter Wilson wrote: [snipped questions] I think a lot about Moria is set up for suspense, from the Watcher to the hammers in the deep even Gandalf's later statement about nameless things. I don't know how concerned Tolkien was about these elements. It seems that they are in the story primarily to show us why Moria is feared. --Dave ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 May 2001 06:08:33 GMT References: <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010501020833.02982.00001230@ng-fn1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35089 >Subject: Re: Moria >From: "A Tsar Is Born" enchante@herodotus.com >Date: 4/30/01 9:37 PM Central Daylight Time >P.S. to Mnkohrz: Enjoyed your post, but the Elves who excavated Menegroth and Thranduil's Hall loved the underground every bit as much as the Dwarves did. Your problem is you've only met sylvan elves. Tsk tsk. Ah, so that's why Thingol was wandering around Beleriand while Morgoth was still imprisoned in the halls of Mandos. He was obviously thinking "No!!! Too much starlight! Too much fresh air! Must...find...deep...cave!" Mnkohrz ###### From: donald_shepherd@spamnot.hotmail.com (Donald Shepherd) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 06:46:29 GMT Organization: Chicken Lines: 56 Message-ID: <3aee5a80.973367@news.uq.edu.au> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.46.219 X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 988699643 6426 192.168.46.219 (1 May 2001 06:47:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 May 2001 06:47:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35063 On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:37:29 -0400, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > >"Peter Wilson" wrote in message >news:9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz... >>What was answering Pippin >> when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt this was the Balrog. What >> was it down there? > >Could be anything. I'd always assumed it was Orcs, having heard an out of place splash, despite it not being mentioned in the actual text. >>When Gandalf fell, he >> fell beyond even the deepest parts of Moria to almost another world, far >> below the surface. Gandalf says "the world is gnawed by nameless things. >> Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." What are these >things? >> Are they creations of Morgoth that he has hidden away for eons, because >> Morgoth did frequent deep places in the days before Utumno and Angband. >> Whatever these things are, they were certainly bad because Gandalf and the >> Balrog, both powerful Maia, fled from them. > >Where does it say the Balrog is a Maia? Woo, one I know, having finally started to read the Silmarillion. Near the end of the Valaquenta in the Silmarillion: "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his [Melkor's] splendour in the days of his greatness... Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs..." >In The Silmarillion, when Melkor/Morgoth flees from Aman to the bottom of >the world to make friends with Ungoliant, the giant spider thingie, it is >strongly implied that she is no creature of his but one of a whole bunch of >horrors who have dwelt in the world since its beginning. Morgoth, focusing >on the northern hemisphere and Getting At the Eldar, hasn't given them any >thought. (Morgoth never gives anything any thought unless he can use it or >destroy it. This is Tolkien's definition of an Evil Person.) > >If Morgoth didn't know about them, Sauron (his mere lieutenant) probably did >not. Although he might have researched them to come up with things like the >Steed of Angmar. > >I assume JRRT was scared by dinosaur skeletons as a child, same way as he >never got over being bitten by a big spider. I suspect that the "nameless things" were produced by Melkor's interference in Iluvatur's song, most likely unintentionally, since that is how all that is evil entered Middle-Earth. Donald Shepherd "Apathy killed the cat." ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> Subject: Re: Moria Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:22:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 988752129 12.78.73.148 (Tue, 01 May 2001 21:22:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:22:09 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35137 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com... > (It's a mystery to me -- has always been -- that Everything in > Moria didn't know about the Invasion from the West as soon as the > Watcher slammed the doors.) It was a big mountain. > His instincts were not perfect. His original Galadriel is a Woman > Who Has Sinned And Repented, but as he fell more and more in love > with her (don't we all?), he fretted about this. It was too late > to rewrite the trilogy, but after it was published, every time he > came back to her story, he made her less and less haughty in her > youth, and less and less culpable, until she turned out all > goody-goody. Ick. I like her MUCH MORE because she has not > always been wise enough to shun power, but has learned (well, > she's certainly had time to think it over) that it's not worth > the trouble. Yes, there were a number of late-LotR and post-LotR changes like this where Tolkien wanted to make the characters better, resolve possible theological problems, or make the world 'more logical' that (to me) detracted from the overall 'magic' of Middle Earth. I think this was more a factor of Tolkien himself changing as he grew older than a fullscale gap in his 'instincts'. > Where does it say the Balrog is a Maia? Many places, some of them quoted by others. It is however noteworthy that this was a late development... the Balrogs became Maiar during or shortly after the writing of LotR. Before that they were first creations of Morgoth and then 'evil spirits' but not specifically Ainur. > In The Silmarillion, when Melkor/Morgoth flees from Aman to the > bottom of the world to make friends with Ungoliant, the giant > spider thingie, it is strongly implied that she is no creature of > his but one of a whole bunch of horrors who have dwelt in the > world since its beginning. Actually, Silm indicates that she had 'followed him' originally but then broken away... which is often taken to imply that she was one of the Maiar whom he had corrupted. In earlier texts Ungoliant (under various similar names) seemed a much more 'primordial' force with less direct connection to Morgoth. > P.S. to Mnkohrz: Enjoyed your post, but the Elves who excavated > Menegroth and Thranduil's Hall loved the underground every bit as > much as the Dwarves did. Actually most of the excavation at Menegroth (and I believe Thranduil's halls as well) was done by Dwarves. The Elves just lived there / paid them. ###### Lines: 23 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: normalgabe@aol.com (NormalGaBe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 May 2001 22:06:05 GMT References: <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010501180605.11185.00001622@ng-cc1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35150 >> In The Silmarillion, when Melkor/Morgoth flees from Aman to the >> bottom of the world to make friends with Ungoliant, the giant >> spider thingie, it is strongly implied that she is no creature of >> his but one of a whole bunch of horrors who have dwelt in the >> world since its beginning. > >Actually, Silm indicates that she had 'followed him' originally >but then broken away... which is often taken to imply that she was >one of the Maiar whom he had corrupted. In earlier texts Ungoliant >(under various similar names) seemed a much more 'primordial' >force with less direct connection to Morgoth. > Are Shelob and Ungoliant one and the same? And was Ungoliant mother of all the other giant spiders or were they Melkor's creations? And are there different giant spiders (Like forest spiders as opposed to mountain cave spiders)? And how could Shelob be so dumb as to impale herself on Sting when she could've just bitten Sam's head of or something. dumb spiders gabe ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <20010501180605.11185.00001622@ng-cc1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Moria Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:21:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 988755704 12.78.73.148 (Tue, 01 May 2001 22:21:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:21:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35139 "NormalGaBe" wrote in message news:20010501180605.11185.00001622@ng-cc1.aol.com... > Are Shelob and Ungoliant one and the same? Shelob was stated to be the 'last child of Ungoliant'. Though in earlies drafts Tolkien used the name 'Ungoliant' where Shelob appeared in the final story. > And was Ungoliant mother of all the other giant spiders or were > they Melkor's creations? There were numerous 'Shelob class' spiders born of Ungoliant and 'evil spirits in spider form' in Beleriand. Most of them were presumably destroyed when Beleriand sank beneath the waves. The Mirkwood spiders were descendants of Shelob. > And are there different giant spiders (Like forest spiders as > opposed to mountain cave spiders)? Not outside the 'Middle Earth' of ICE that I am aware of. > And how could Shelob be so dumb as to impale herself on Sting > when she could've just bitten Sam's head of or something. > dumb spiders I hope never to encounter whatever sort of spider you are familiar with that makes these seem stupid by comparison. :) ###### From: meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: 1 May 2001 23:19:08 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9cng9c$ejv$3@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib_0200_6111.cpc.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 988759148 14975 139.222.126.111 (1 May 2001 23:19:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 May 2001 23:19:08 GMT X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!134.222.94.5!npeer.kpnqwest.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35138 Þus cwæþ Conrad Dunkerson : >the Balrogs became >Maiar during or shortly after the writing of LotR. The 'Flame of Udun' v 'Flame of Anor' exchange in LoTR led me to believe that JRRT had definitely decided to make Balrogs Maiar when he wrote that. Gandalf calling himself a 'Flame of Anor' as opposed to the Balrog, which was a 'Flame of Udun' would to me indicate that they represent 'the same order of being'. Is it possible to construe that passage differently? Cheers, Meneldil ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <3aef47e6.22088131@news.powersurfr.com> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aedb81b.23270742@news.powersurfr.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:36:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 988759952 24.108.184.50 (Tue, 01 May 2001 17:32:32 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:32:32 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35164 On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:20:51 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote, in part: >"John Savard" wrote in message >news:3aedb81b.23270742@news.powersurfr.com... >> Clearly, they are inspired by the Nidhogg of Norse legend. >Hmmm, interesting idea. The gnawing on the roots of Yggdrasil >being the presumed connection. Others have suggested a >Lovecraftian connection of all things. Tolkien would certainly >have been familiar with Yggdrasil, but there aren't any other >obvious links to prove out the concept. They certainly make _me_ think of Lovecraft, but that's not the sort of source I'd think of Tolkien using. But I would have thought linking them to the Nidhogg is far from original, since they were attacking the roots of the world - I'd have figured that just about every author exploring Tolkien's inspiration would have caught that one. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/ ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <20010501180605.11185.00001622@ng-cc1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Moria Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:31:05 -0400 Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.127 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.127 Message-ID: <3aef9cd3$1_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Trace: 2 May 2001 00:36:19 -0500, 64.24.44.127 X-Complaints-To: abuse@megapop.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.starnetinc.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35159 "NormalGaBe" wrote in message news:20010501180605.11185.00001622@ng-cc1.aol.com... > Are Shelob and Ungoliant one and the same? And was Ungoliant mother of all the > other giant spiders or were they Melkor's creations? And are there different > giant spiders (Like forest spiders as opposed to mountain cave spiders)? And > how could Shelob be so dumb as to impale herself on Sting when she could've > just bitten Sam's head of or something. > dumb spiders Hey, Gabe, if you think it's easy making webs in the darkness and trying to catch things in untrafficked places, well, you just try it is all! When Shelob turns up, Tolkien says something to the effect that she is the last spawn of Ungoliant left to trouble the world. So no, she's not the same (Ungoliant is considerably grander), and the witty spiders of Mirkwood come from another line. Sort of the way the Elves of Thranduil are related to the Eldar, when you think about it ... (Even Tolkien ran low on invention now and then.) What the injury of Shelob implies is that she's never come up against a sword of quite this level of workmanship before. Forged in Gondolin as somebody's clasp knife, wasn't it? Noldorin workmanship, eh? Most swords would presumably crumple under her carapace. So of course she wasn't expecting this. And as Tolkien points out, Sam could never have pierced her belly on his own steam -- it's the weight of her own body that sticks the thing in quite so far. Like that splinter I got last year.... Parmathule atsarisborn@hotmail.com ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> <20010501020833.02982.00001230@ng-fn1.news.gateway.net> Subject: Re: Moria Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:31:14 -0400 Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.127 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.44.127 Message-ID: <3aef9cd5$1_1@news.starnetinc.com> X-Trace: 2 May 2001 00:36:21 -0500, 64.24.44.127 X-Complaints-To: abuse@megapop.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.starnetinc.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35160 "Mnkohrz" wrote in message news:20010501020833.02982.00001230@ng-fn1.news.gateway.net... > >Subject: Re: Moria > >From: "A Tsar Is Born" enchante@herodotus.com > >Date: 4/30/01 9:37 PM Central Daylight Time > > > >P.S. to Mnkohrz: Enjoyed your post, but the Elves who excavated Menegroth and > Thranduil's Hall loved the underground every bit as much as the Dwarves did. > Your problem is you've only met sylvan elves. Tsk tsk. > > Ah, so that's why Thingol was wandering around Beleriand while Morgoth was > still imprisoned in the halls of Mandos. He was obviously thinking "No!!! Too > much starlight! Too much fresh air! Must...find...deep...cave!" Well, not in his bachelor days, of course. But as soon as he decided to settle down with the nightingale girl of his dreams.... Parmathule ###### From: sophia Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:42:23 +0100 Organization: The Court of Faerie Message-ID: <3jfDtBAvh876EwsI@arxana.demon.co.uk> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: arxana.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: arxana.demon.co.uk:193.237.43.175 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 988801202 nnrp-02:19262 NO-IDENT arxana.demon.co.uk:193.237.43.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newspeer.clara.net!newspeer2.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!arxana.demon.co.uk!sophia Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35166 In article <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.n et>, Conrad Dunkerson writes >"A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message >news:3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com... > >> (It's a mystery to me -- has always been -- that Everything in >> Moria didn't know about the Invasion from the West as soon as the >> Watcher slammed the doors.) > >It was a big mountain. I think in Unfinished Tales Tolkien also says that most of the monstrous inhabitants of Moria lived at the eastern end of the city, which was three days journey away from the West gate. Their living in the East makes sense both as that was the direction an attack was most likely from, and it also seems to have been the area with most of the important chambers. > Actually most of the excavation at Menegroth (and I believe >Thranduil's halls as well) was done by Dwarves. The Elves just >lived there / paid them. I think it was a joint effort. There is another underground elf city that no one has mentioned yet, Nargothrond. Wasn't that built by the Noldor? > > > -- Sophia Faith in Fabulousness ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: 02 May 2001 14:32:09 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6uvgnkhqye.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3jfDtBAvh876EwsI@arxana.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 988806729 301 10.0.3.2 (2 May 2001 12:32:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 2001 12:32:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35182 sophia writes: > In article <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.n > et>, Conrad Dunkerson writes > > >Actually most of the excavation at Menegroth (and I believe > >Thranduil's halls as well) was done by Dwarves. The Elves just > >lived there / paid them. > > I think it was a joint effort. There is another underground elf city that > no one has mentioned yet, Nargothrond. Wasn't that built by the > Noldor? Nargothrond was mainly dwarf-built. That is why thy created the name "Felagund" (cave-hewer) for Finrod who had it built. Menegroth was built at the time when Thingols elves and the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost were still on speaking terms. So (part-)dwarven work is likely. OTOH Thranduils halls were build by survivors of the elf/dwarf war that destroyed Menegroth. So I would doubt any dwaves being allowed on that building site. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 May 2001 16:51:38 GMT References: <6uvgnkhqye.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010502125138.04619.00002317@ng-ct1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35189 >Subject: Re: Moria >From: Neil Franklin neil@franklin.ch.remove >Date: 5/2/01 7:32 AM Central Daylight Time >OTOH Thranduils halls were build by survivors of the elf/dwarf war that destroyed Menegroth. So I would doubt any dwaves being allowed on that building site. "'You have not seen, so I forgive your jest,' said Gimli. 'But you speak like a fool. Do you think those halls are fair, where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarves helped in their making long ago?" - The Road to Isengard Mnkohrz ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <3aee21fe_1@news.starnetinc.com> <5OFH6.513$t12.39141@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <9cng9c$ejv$3@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Moria Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <0m0I6.2410$4f7.154282@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:02:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.89.144.140 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 988844540 12.89.144.140 (Wed, 02 May 2001 23:02:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:02:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35214 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:9cng9c$ejv$3@cpca14.uea.ac.uk... > The 'Flame of Udun' v 'Flame of Anor' exchange in LoTR led me to > believe that JRRT had definitely decided to make Balrogs Maiar > when he wrote that. Gandalf calling himself a 'Flame of Anor' Actually, Gandalf said that he was a >wielder< of the Flame of Anor... not that he was one himself. > as opposed to the Balrog, which was a 'Flame of Udun' would to > me indicate that they represent 'the same order of being'. > Is it possible to construe that passage differently? Given that Gandalf called the Balrog a 'flame of Udun' and said that he himself was a servant of the 'Secret Fire' / wielder of the 'flame of Anor'? Sure... there is a comparison of types of 'flames', but not of types of Beings. Gandalf doesn't announce who or what he is - just his allegiance and power. ###### Lines: 34 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 May 2001 01:55:03 GMT References: <0m0I6.2410$4f7.154282@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010502215503.06566.00002018@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35227 In article <0m0I6.2410$4f7.154282@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >"Meneldil" wrote in message >news:9cng9c$ejv$3@cpca14.uea.ac.uk... > >> The 'Flame of Udun' v 'Flame of Anor' exchange in LoTR led me to >> believe that JRRT had definitely decided to make Balrogs Maiar >> when he wrote that. Gandalf calling himself a 'Flame of Anor' > >Actually, Gandalf said that he was a >wielder< of the Flame of >Anor... not that he was one himself. Oh yes he did. More than that he was the *unprovoked* Flame of Anor! >> as opposed to the Balrog, which was a 'Flame of Udun' would to >> me indicate that they represent 'the same order of being'. >> Is it possible to construe that passage differently? > >Given that Gandalf called the Balrog a 'flame of Udun' and said >that he himself was a servant of the 'Secret Fire' / wielder of >the 'flame of Anor'? Sure... there is a comparison of types of >'flames', but not of types of Beings. Gandalf doesn't announce >who or what he is - just his allegiance and power. Ta da! I just had a horrible thought...Imagine if the Balrog and Gandalf were cold-miser and heat-miser and instead of an epic battle in the movie, they burst into song? Ba-ba-ba-ba brammm bam bam Russ ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1675-3AF0BE22-80@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <3aef9cd3$1_1@news.starnetinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQLU3ntOumUB2brVDnlQRriPk4lHgIVAI4fDxoLSzA6JalFXFTu3ujS2V9I Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!feed.textport.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35200 A Tsar is Born wrote: >When Shelob turns up, Tolkien says >something to the effect that she is the >last spawn of Ungoliant left to trouble the >world. So no, she's not the same >(Ungoliant is considerably grander), and >the witty spiders of Mirkwood come from >another line. Actually, I belive the spiders of Mirkwood were ultimately descended from Shelob. --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1675-3AF0BED6-81@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <6uvgnkhqye.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAtEW8nZsuk35+2tu0ob/oO255B+4CFGsosf1+t/n79++WDSVWQegAPeO9 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35204 Neil Franklin wrote: >OTOH Thranduils halls were build by >survivors of the elf/dwarf war that >destroyed Menegroth. So I would doubt >any dwaves being allowed on that >building site. I don't remember any references to Thranduil's hall being built by the Sindar. Granted, Thranduil was a Sinda, and some of his followers may have been as well, but most of them seem to be Nandor or Avari, or something like that. --Dave ###### Sender: sahill@harper.uchicago.edu Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Moria References: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <20010430122254.01779.00001129@ng-fn1.news.gateway.net> From: Lancelot appearing sideways Message-ID: Lines: 44 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 989001403 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 04 May 2001 13:36:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:36:43 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: rgAI6-35957-E4-18967@uchinews X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 8ad4fe4b a5848add 6ee4bf75 6b3d840c 299ab6e8 Date: 04 May 2001 13:36:46 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35372 mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) writes: > >Subject: Moria > >From: "Peter Wilson" wilsong@es.co.nz > >Date: 4/30/01 5:16 AM Central Daylight Time > >Message-id: <9cje0s$edb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> > >What was answering Pippin when he dropped the stone down the well. I doubt > >this was the Balrog. What was it down there? > We don't for sure, but since Gimli identified it as the sound of a hammer, one > could assume that it was an orc sending a message to other orcs - the Moria > Early Detection Alarm in action. Everyone seems to assume that the sound of the hammer was in reaction to the stone, but I don't know if that is necessarily so. First of all, wouldn't it be silly for the Orcs to get so worked up by a small pebble falling down a well? Wouldn't the more reasonable explanation be that it was knocked down there by a rat or a bat, or by a random trickle of water? Makes these orcs out to be either very touchy or just very diligent in their reporting efforts; the latter isn't a normal characteristic of orcs as far as we've seen. My guess is that the noise was due to one of three things: 1. Coincidence. The orcs don't know that the Fellowship is there, but the passage foreshadows the fact that they are not alone in the caves. 2. The hammerstrokes had been going on for some time, just ordinary work (or maybe a message about the Fellowship and the events with the Watcher), but they didn't notice it until they started listening for it. 3. The sound of their voices carried down the well and could be heard by the orcs, giving them their first warning of trespassers. Or maybe Pippin, when looking into the well, said something which carried. That'd be much more likely to alarm the guards than a falling stone. Whaddya think? / :@-) Scott \ ###### Lines: 51 X-Admin: news@gateway.net From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 May 2001 02:46:13 GMT References: Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Subject: Re: Moria Message-ID: <20010504224613.06658.00002101@ng-fx1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.fh-hannover.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:35496 >Subject: Re: Moria >From: Lancelot appearing sideways sa-hill1@uchicago.edu >Date: 5/4/01 1:36 PM Central Daylight Time >> We don't for sure, but since Gimli identified it as the sound of a hammer, one could assume that it was an orc sending a message to other orcs - the Moria Early Detection Alarm in action. > >Everyone seems to assume that the sound of the hammer was in reaction to the stone, but I don't know if that is necessarily so. First of all, wouldn't it be silly for the Orcs to get so worked up by a small pebble falling down a well? Wouldn't the more reasonable explanation be that it was knocked down there by a rat or a bat, or by a random trickle of water? Makes these orcs out to be either very touchy or just very diligent in their reporting efforts; the latter isn't a normal characteristic of orcs as far as we've seen. We don't know for sure that it was an orc. Maybe it was just the ghost of Durin wandering the carverns of his kingdom :) >My guess is that the noise was due to one of three things: > >1. Coincidence. The orcs don't know that the Fellowship is there, but the passage foreshadows the fact that they are not alone in the caves. While it's very unlikely to be a mere coincidence, I agree that the passage was certainly meant to foreshadow the fact that the Company was not alone in Moria. >2. The hammerstrokes had been going on for some time, just ordinary work (or maybe a message about the Fellowship and the events with the Watcher), but they didn't notice it until they started listening for it. I have to be very skeptical about this possibility. Both Frodo and Aragorn heard Gollum - a creature with many centuries of experience in stealth - trailing the Company. Surely one of them would have noticed such a sound before the Company entered the guardroom. Not to mention that Gandalf clearly heard the echo of the stone falling into water. On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that it was a bit of coincidence after all, that an orc or some other creature was preparing to send a message at the exact same moment when Pippin dropped the stone. >3. The sound of their voices carried down the well and could be heard by the orcs, giving them their first warning of trespassers. Or maybe Pippin, when looking into the well, said something which carried. That'd be much more likely to alarm the guards than a falling stone. Much more likely. The Company made a bit more noise than usual just before they entered the guardroom and discovered the well. Mnkohrz