From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Heights of Elves and Men: A Comparative Analysis Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:26:20 +0000 Organization: BBS InterBulletin.com Lines: 155 Message-ID: <3AE24F5C.379BE8EE@interbulletin.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.interbulletin.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: InterBulletin WebNewsreader [Beta v0.2] X-Complaints-To: abuse@interbulletin.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:34875 This is a comparative analysis of the heights (with some other matters thrown in) of Elves and Men (or the Eldar and Edain) in the Legendarium from JRRT's earliest to latest writings. Early 20's: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" From BoLT1. Very early conception when these 'Elves' were 'fairies' and not the Eldar of Tolkiens later conception, just very different and distant predecessors. ca. '26: "In early days Eldar and Men were of nearly equal stature and power of body... Men from the first though slightly bigger were more frail." SoME, Earliest Silmarillion, chapter 7. Note Men are only slightly bigger than the Elves. No difference is mentioned about power of body. The distinguishing elements of the Edainic house have not been introduced yet. ca. '30: "In early days Eldar and Men were of little different stature and bodily might; but the Eldar were blessed with greater skill, beauty and wit... More frail were men..." SoME, The Quenta, Chapter 7. Now Men and Elves are equivilent in height and strength the remark about Men being slightly bigger is dropped. Still no writings on the Edainic stature. ca. '37: "In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body.. More frail were Men." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 7. (And also the '77 published Sil). The idea of Men being bigger remained dropped. (Note Elves and Men generic not specific, just as with the above posts, Eldar=Elves). But Edainic elements enter. ca. '37: "[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader their legs shorter and less swift... the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes grey, and their faces fair to look upon...Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day, and they were most like to the Gnomes; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift of understanding, long in memory." LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of Men and Dwarves. Hador's folk are greater in strength and stature than Elves (generic/average); the Folk of Haleth are related to the Hadorians; the Beorians are no greater in height than the Elves (again generic), they are compared with the Gnomes (who are only now starting to become Noldor), in terms of mental abilities, and certain physical skills NOT in terms of actual physical atributes (height or strength). ca. '51: "The men of Beor were dark or brown of hair, but fair of face, with grey eyes; of shapely form, having courage and endurance, yet they were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the children of Eru, ready in mind bold and steadfast. Yellowhaired they were for the most part...Like unto them were the woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high." WotJ, Grey Annals, 422. Here it speaks of the Beorians being no greater in stature than the Eldar (generic including the Sindar, Nandor (or predecessors) and Noldor). It then goes on to say that the Noldor (in general) are as tall as men of great might and majesty (specific) of later days (the Numenoreans were men of great might and majesty of later days). The Hadorian are of yet greater strength and stature, but is this comparing them to the Noldor? I think not. As with the other writings it is comparing them with the Beorians. The Noldor are distinguished by being as tall as later men of strength and majesty (such as Numenoreans are). The Halethians are still related to the Hadorians. ca. '58: "Many of [Hador's] people were like him golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Beor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift." WotJ, Later Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 14, Of the Coming of Men. Now it becomes clear that the height and strength comparison is between the Hadorians and Beorians (or if not it was dropped). Again the Beorians are generally less in stature and strength than the Hadorians, but note here they are 'lithe and lean in body'. The comparison btween the Noldor and Beorians is again not physical attributes, but skills of mind and body. The Folk of Haleth are now being related to the Beorians. ca. '68: "For the most part [the Folk of Hador] were a tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair though all were fair skinned... There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. In association with the Eldar... they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow... But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men. Note that any physical comparison has vis a vis Elves and Men been dropped. The Hadorians are taller (and swifter) than other men (no mention of strength), both the Hadorians and Beorians are enhanced by association with the Eldar. But the differences are becoming less because of intermarriage (so the Hadorians are becoming smaller, dark hair more prominent). Note also the slight changes to skin, hair and eye colour. The Beorians are also no longer described as 'lithe and lean' but 'broader and heavier' (one of the footnotes has Beren (a Beorian) as 'broad shouldered and very strong of limb'. From '77: [Hador's] people were of great strength, stature ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and laughter, mighty among the Children of Illuvatar in the youth of Mankind. Yellow haired for the most part and blue-eyed... The Men of [Beor's] house were dark or brown of hair with grey eyes; and of all Men they were most like to the Noldor... for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than laughter. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth but they were of lesser stature, and less eager for lore." From the published Silmarillion (as edited by CT) Chapter 17, Of the Coming of Men. Provided so that you can see some of the changes CT made to JRRT's writings and how he edited together various passages from different times to put together the published Silmarillion. We can do something similar for the Numenoreans. ca. 36?: "For in Numenore a great people arose, in all things more like the First Kindred than other races of Men that have been, yet less fair and wise than they, though greater in body." LR, Fall of Numenor (first version). ca. 36? and 40?: "...the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were taller than even the tallest sons of Men in Middle-Earth." (Second Version (LR) and Third Version (SD)). So these three versions have the Numenoreans being taller than the Elves (again a generic average) but do not say they are stronger. ca. '46: "And the Numenoreans grew wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of men that have been." SD, Drowning of Anadune (original, 2nd version lacks 'mightiest of men'). ca. '48?: "...in Numenor the Eruhildi became wise and fair and glorious, the mightiest of Men...". (3rd Version). The later versions now drop the Numenoreans as being taller than the Eldar. But they are the mightiest of Men. ca. 51: "Therefore the grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest sons of Middle-earth..." Akallabeth, Pub Sil. and PoME, History of the Akallabeth. That the Numenoreans were greater in stature than the Eldar remains dropped in the final version. However they are taller than any Men of Middle-earth. ca. '68: "They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent, which appears to have been about 7 of our feet." PoME, Of Dwarves and Men. _______________________________________________ Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3AE24F5C.379BE8EE@interbulletin.com> Subject: Re: The Heights of Elves and Men: A Comparative Analysis Lines: 89 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:34:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 989750056 12.79.22.98 (Sun, 13 May 2001 10:34:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:34:16 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:36335 "Tar-Elenion" wrote in message news:3AE24F5C.379BE8EE@interbulletin.com... > This is a comparative analysis of the heights (with some other > matters thrown in) of Elves and Men (or the Eldar and Edain) in > the Legendarium from JRRT's earliest to latest writings. Another excellent summation that I've been holding until I had a chance to study it properly. > Early 20's: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, > the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" From > BoLT1. It is interesting to note that despite Tolkien's avowed dislike of the 'diminutive' fairies of Shakespeare and others his own Elves trended that way in the beginning as well... as if they would eventually diminish into the tiny silly creatures of later legend. > Very early conception when these 'Elves' were 'fairies' and not > the Eldar of Tolkiens later conception, just very different and > distant predecessors. Largely true, but I often think that it is a mistake to separate these early conceptions entirely as they are the root of all that came later and elements were preserved throughout. Even this passage from the early 20s shows the first seeds of what would later be called the 'diminishment' and then 'fading' of the Elves. The emphasis of that change went from a reduction in physical stature to a reduction in spiritual energy and physical substance, but the same mechanism (a means of removing the Eldar from our world) is at work and it might be possible to compose a similar analysis of the evolution of this concept over time. > ca. '26: "In early days Eldar and Men were of nearly equal > stature and power of body... Men from the first though slightly > bigger were more frail." > SoME, Earliest Silmarillion, chapter 7. > Note Men are only slightly bigger than the Elves. No difference > is mentioned about power of body. It might be argued that 'were more frail' refers to lesser physical strength / power of body. However, I'd generally read it (as you apparently do) to refer to frailties of health such as disease and succumbing to wounds - which are elsewhere remarked upon as lesser in Men than in Elves. > ca. '37: "[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the > most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body > than the Elves... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, > but they were not so tall; their backs were broader their legs > shorter and less swift... the people of Beor were dark or brown > of hair; their eyes grey, and their faces fair to look > upon...Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that > day, and they were most like to the Gnomes; for they were eager > of mind, cunning handed, swift of understanding, long in memory." > LR, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 10 Of Men and Dwarves. The idea that some Men were stronger than Elves (in general) helps to explain why they played such a crucial role in the Wars of Beleriand. It is interesting though that when the Noldor first arrived they seemed to cut through vast hosts of Orcs like wheat, but later needed large forces of Men beside them to hold their ground. Granted, the Orcs were later supported by dragons, but it seems to suggest (and is so stated in some cases) that the Noldor were considerably more powerful when they first arrived than in later years. > Here it speaks of the Beorians being no greater in stature than > the Eldar (generic including the Sindar, Nandor (or predecessors) > and Noldor). It then goes on to say that the Noldor (in general) > are as tall as men of great might and majesty (specific) of later > days (the Numenoreans were men of great might and majesty of > later days). The Hadorian are of yet greater strength and > stature, but is this comparing them to the Noldor? I think not. > As with the other writings it is comparing them with the > Beorians. An interesting side note is that the tallest of the Eruhini was apparently Thingol - a Teler. Turgon is said to have been second tallest in some texts, but it would seem that Thingol was either outlandishly tall for his own people or there was considerable variation in height amongst the various elven groups. I think the tallest individual whose height is actually given is Elendil at 7'11"... making Turgon and Thingol likely over 8' tall. ###### Lines: 34 X-Admin: news@cs.com From: ottoyuhr@cs.com (Ottoyuhr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 May 2001 18:25:07 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Subject: Re: The Heights of Elves and Men: A Comparative Analysis Message-ID: <20010514142507.01978.00001435@ng-fn1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:36509 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: [snip] >> Early 20's: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, >> the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" From >> BoLT1. > >It is interesting to note that despite Tolkien's avowed dislike >of the 'diminutive' fairies of Shakespeare and others his own >Elves trended that way in the beginning as well... as if they would >eventually diminish into the tiny silly creatures of later legend. > I for one think that he was influenced here, not by Shakespearian stupidity, but by the British-Celtic myths of the Tutha de Danaan. They were "fairy folk" very similar to the Elves in Tolkien, and similarly they faded over time, expressly *becoming* the later faeries. If Tol Eressea is equivalent to Britain, then other similarities start falling into place. The myth of Ossian and Niam is a decayed form of that of Beren and Luthien, Balor of the Evil Eye was Morgoth, Lugh was (possibly) Feanor, Earendil was Maeldun, and so on. His geographic paralells attest to the fact that this may have been his original plan, notwithstanding his admiration for the Anglo-Saxons. He would certainly have come in contact with the Celtic Danaan-myths early in his life; the _Cattle Raid of Quengly_ (Tain bo Cuailgne) was first translated into English in the late 1800s. His plan to give England a national myth would have been simpler if he had a framework (e.g. Celtic myths) to work from; thus, the reference to Elves fading over time. Recall that Tolkien admired the beauty of Welsh; he might have been influenced by the Celtic languages in developing Qenya (sic; the earliest form), as with the instance of "bo" (Gaelic "of") becoming Qenya "bo-" or "go-" ("son of").