From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:42:37 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 95 Message-ID: References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.a8 X-Server-Date: 27 Feb 2001 14:40:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33040 Quoth Jabba McJabba in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > how come that the Elves had magic powers ?Do they have magical powers?I >do >not think so. Calling magic powers the characteristics of a person that >allow >him to perform in truth (and not simulate) things AGAINST and OUT of >universally accepted laws of physics and chemistry, only by using his normal >body functions - they could not have those powers. But I think they did. The chapters about Lórien, and the "Many Meetings" chapter, illustrate this best. "The Mirror of Galadriel" contains Galadriel's statement about "Elvish magic", which I suspect is close to Tolkien's own. The cloaks that were given to the Fellowship were different from cloth woven by mortals: they made the wearers nearly invisible. (Remember how the Riders of Rohan didn't see Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas.) The River of Rivendell was "under [Elrond's] power", and he could hold it back or make its waters increase as he chose. Galadriel could command her Mirror to show specific things. > I only accept to an extent the explanation of Elves having direct contact >with the Ainu and learning "magic" from them. You meant to say "the Ainur". I believe the Ainu were the aboriginal people of Japan. But though some of the Eldar had contact with the Ainur, as far as we can see in the Second Age and Third Age the Valar never intervened directly(*) in Middle-earth. So I don't think the magic of Elrond and Galadriel admits of that explanation. (*) N.B. Never _directly_. The Valar did send some Maiar, to encourage, to warn, and even to lead at the end. But I can't see any evidence whatever that the Elves routinely drew on the power of Gandalf and Saruman. >In fact, what they learned, was >rather advanced technology and initimate knowledge about the substance of >Arda, which may allowed them to do things that looked magical to Men or >Dwarves. This view has much to commend it. Perhaps you are thinking of [Arthur C.] Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." But I don't think it covers all the facts we have. For instance, the Palantíri could look through space and time. This is impossible under the laws of physics, since it would require light to travel faster than light. >The silmarils themselves - their greatest work - were little more >than jewels,no matter they were holding the Primal Light inside. Good example, but I don't think it supports your case. Remember that the Silmarils, if broken open early enough, would have been able to bring the Two Trees back to life. Also remember that the Silmarils burned some hands but not others, and in fact the _same_ hands were burned or not at different times. (Though I suppose we could say that Maglor and Maedhros were having psychosomatic pain and burning after they stole the Silmarils from the elven guards.) >we can see that >only "chosen" Elves are performing "magic". But remember that nearly every elven song seems to communicate something to the hearers, even if they don't know the language. Tolkien points this out more than once in LotR. I think Tolkien's view is that different races or "kindreds" have different intrinsic powers, which are completely natural (not supernatural) to them but may appear marvelous to others. So Elves' ability to "sing across the language barrier" is not different in kind from Hobbits' ability to get quickly out of the way when Big Folk come blundering along. > So the Elves do not have magical powers "per se", they are only asking a >Vala's favour, roughly said. How does it looks then the magical confrontation >between Sauron and Finrod Felagund? Who was holding Finrod's back? And, as I >said in another mail, who was behind Galadriel's mirror? These are good examples, and I think they also go against your statement. Finrod and Galadriel were only using their own powers, as far as we are ever led to believe. Even Aragorn had "magic" of a kind, healing people who were gravely hurt and in a coma. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:42:37 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 95 Message-ID: References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.a8 X-Server-Date: 27 Feb 2001 14:40:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33040 Quoth Jabba McJabba in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > how come that the Elves had magic powers ?Do they have magical powers?I >do >not think so. Calling magic powers the characteristics of a person that >allow >him to perform in truth (and not simulate) things AGAINST and OUT of >universally accepted laws of physics and chemistry, only by using his normal >body functions - they could not have those powers. But I think they did. The chapters about Lórien, and the "Many Meetings" chapter, illustrate this best. "The Mirror of Galadriel" contains Galadriel's statement about "Elvish magic", which I suspect is close to Tolkien's own. The cloaks that were given to the Fellowship were different from cloth woven by mortals: they made the wearers nearly invisible. (Remember how the Riders of Rohan didn't see Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas.) The River of Rivendell was "under [Elrond's] power", and he could hold it back or make its waters increase as he chose. Galadriel could command her Mirror to show specific things. > I only accept to an extent the explanation of Elves having direct contact >with the Ainu and learning "magic" from them. You meant to say "the Ainur". I believe the Ainu were the aboriginal people of Japan. But though some of the Eldar had contact with the Ainur, as far as we can see in the Second Age and Third Age the Valar never intervened directly(*) in Middle-earth. So I don't think the magic of Elrond and Galadriel admits of that explanation. (*) N.B. Never _directly_. The Valar did send some Maiar, to encourage, to warn, and even to lead at the end. But I can't see any evidence whatever that the Elves routinely drew on the power of Gandalf and Saruman. >In fact, what they learned, was >rather advanced technology and initimate knowledge about the substance of >Arda, which may allowed them to do things that looked magical to Men or >Dwarves. This view has much to commend it. Perhaps you are thinking of [Arthur C.] Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." But I don't think it covers all the facts we have. For instance, the Palantíri could look through space and time. This is impossible under the laws of physics, since it would require light to travel faster than light. >The silmarils themselves - their greatest work - were little more >than jewels,no matter they were holding the Primal Light inside. Good example, but I don't think it supports your case. Remember that the Silmarils, if broken open early enough, would have been able to bring the Two Trees back to life. Also remember that the Silmarils burned some hands but not others, and in fact the _same_ hands were burned or not at different times. (Though I suppose we could say that Maglor and Maedhros were having psychosomatic pain and burning after they stole the Silmarils from the elven guards.) >we can see that >only "chosen" Elves are performing "magic". But remember that nearly every elven song seems to communicate something to the hearers, even if they don't know the language. Tolkien points this out more than once in LotR. I think Tolkien's view is that different races or "kindreds" have different intrinsic powers, which are completely natural (not supernatural) to them but may appear marvelous to others. So Elves' ability to "sing across the language barrier" is not different in kind from Hobbits' ability to get quickly out of the way when Big Folk come blundering along. > So the Elves do not have magical powers "per se", they are only asking a >Vala's favour, roughly said. How does it looks then the magical confrontation >between Sauron and Finrod Felagund? Who was holding Finrod's back? And, as I >said in another mail, who was behind Galadriel's mirror? These are good examples, and I think they also go against your statement. Finrod and Galadriel were only using their own powers, as far as we are ever led to believe. Even Aragorn had "magic" of a kind, healing people who were gravely hurt and in a coma. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:02:53 -0500 Lines: 88 Message-ID: <3A9BA579.FB62949@erols.com> References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYcpOzcbqhF2y1lHJvq0Xgiv3VVbxavU7grnR/f3BScpWmvlKzx/b7R X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2001 17:51:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33055 Jabba McJabba wrote: > Hi all, > how come that the Elves had magic powers ?Do they have magical powers?I > do > not think so. I do. > Calling magic powers the characteristics of a person that > allow > him to perform in truth (and not simulate) things AGAINST and OUT of > universally accepted laws of physics and chemistry, only by using his normal > body functions - they could not have those powers. Why not? > I only accept to an extent the explanation of Elves having direct contact > with the Ainu and learning "magic" from them.In fact, what they learned, was > rather advanced technology and initimate knowledge about the substance of > Arda, which may allowed them to do things that looked magical to Men or > Dwarves. Now why would the Ainur have advanced technology if they have magic? Weren't the Númenóreans the ones with advanced technology? > The silmarils themselves - their greatest work - were little more > than > jewels,no matter they were holding the Primal Light inside. Magical, unbreakable jewels, and what is the Primal Light? > Magic as I defined it above imply the presence of supranatural forces > that > were building and preserving the very texture of the caster's world - and > consequently can modify it - on demand or by their own will. I tend to consider magic part of each Elf and Ainu. > Are these > forces > the elves?No, these forces are clearly the Ainu. Or maybe the Ainur are simply more powerful. > That's why I don't wonder at > Gandalf's magical capabilities...Are these blind forces and respond > automatically to a caster? I think the magic used belongs to Gandalf. > I think the answer is no, because we can see that > only "chosen" Elves are performing "magic". Huh? I don't understand. > Have they shared some of their > power to some Elves? Has Eru given smaller measures of power like the Ainur's to Elves? > I have not found this stated anywhere - they have only > shared knowledge. Therefore I might call the elf magic a direct response of > the Valar to caster request - therefore a DIRECT implication of the > responsible Vala in the action.I think this gave a new dimension to lots of > moments in Tolkien's books. > So the Elves do not have magical powers "per se", they are only asking a > Vala's favour, roughly said. I don't agree, but it's an interesting idea. > How does it looks then the magical confrontation > between Sauron and Finrod Felagund?Who was holding Finrod's back?And, as I > said in another mail, who was behind Galadriel's mirror? Also, how can Elves have their power diminished by creating magical items if the magic used isn't theirs? > What do you think? > > Jabba Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Nils Altenbach Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:38:53 +0100 Organization: Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy... Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3A9C2C7D.CC1A04D5@t-online.de> References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> <3A9BA579.FB62949@erols.com> Reply-To: schwarzlicht@gmx.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 983313557 00 31896 rGu0YyXS0AXco 010227 22:39:17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 520038129168-0001@t-dialin.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: de,en,en-GB,en-US Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33065 Ermanna wrote: > > Jabba McJabba wrote: > > > That's why I don't wonder at > > Gandalf's magical capabilities...Are these blind forces and respond > > automatically to a caster? > > I think the magic used belongs to Gandalf. Yes, but why did it belong to him? Because he was an Ainu? Nils -- Lord BlackLight aka Lord Helmet aka ElfBoi aka Lord Caramac the Clueless His Arrogance Pope Cereal I. http://home.pages.de/~Lord_Helm ICQ #14080192 Reality is the original Rorschach. ###### From: Nils Altenbach Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:53:57 +0100 Organization: Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy... Lines: 58 Message-ID: <3A9C3005.232B22A6@t-online.de> References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> Reply-To: schwarzlicht@gmx.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 983314460 02 13703 lUu0X-bS2AsDG 010227 22:54:20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 520038129168-0001@t-dialin.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: de,en,en-GB,en-US Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed2.easynews.net!easynews.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33064 Stan Brown wrote: > > But I think they did. The chapters about Lórien, and the "Many > Meetings" chapter, illustrate this best. "The Mirror of Galadriel" > contains Galadriel's statement about "Elvish magic", which I suspect > is close to Tolkien's own. > > The cloaks that were given to the Fellowship were different from > cloth woven by mortals: they made the wearers nearly invisible. > (Remember how the Riders of Rohan didn't see Aragorn, Gimli, and > Legolas.) The River of Rivendell was "under [Elrond's] power", and > he could hold it back or make its waters increase as he chose. > Galadriel could command her Mirror to show specific things. I think the Elves are connected to Arda in a way that must seem "magical" to any mortal - just because they have so much time to develop. A single Elf can learn more about the world he lives in than a whole civilisation of Men, except perhaps for the Númenoreans. Therefore mortals must appear to an Elf as mere "children", as Legolas says when he reaches Fangorn with Gimli and Aragorn. What seems magical to mortals - the grey fabric that renders its wearer almost invisible, for example - must appear to the Elves perfectly natural. Galadriel is just very skilled. > > I only accept to an extent the explanation of Elves having direct > > contact with the Ainu and learning "magic" from them. > > You meant to say "the Ainur". I believe the Ainu were the aboriginal > people of Japan. "Ainu" is also the singular form of "Ainur". > This view has much to commend it. Perhaps you are thinking of > [Arthur C.] Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is > indistinguishable from magic." The terms "technology" and "magic" are just matters of definition. We define a certain way of "making things work" as "technology", and another as "magic", and many people nowadays believe that there is no such thing as "magic". But I won't go on talking about that matter anymore, for it belongs to alt.magick.chaos. > Even Aragorn had "magic" of a kind, healing people who were gravely > hurt and in a coma. I think he had that power because he was descended from Elros who was a Half-Elf, and even had some blood of the Ainur (Melian) in his veins. -- Lord BlackLight aka Lord Helmet aka ElfBoi aka Lord Caramac the Clueless His Arrogance Pope Cereal I. http://home.pages.de/~Lord_Helm ICQ #14080192 Reality is the original Rorschach. ###### From: Chris Barrera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: 27 Feb 2001 23:01:56 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 12 Message-ID: <97hbl4$6ja$1@tilde.csc.ti.com> References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> <3A9C3005.232B22A6@t-online.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: luna1-hme1.dal.mslp.ti.com X-Trace: tilde.csc.ti.com 983314916 6762 172.24.195.151 (27 Feb 2001 23:01:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.ti.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2001 23:01:56 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.smu.edu!news.ti.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33067 Nils Altenbach wrote: :> Even Aragorn had "magic" of a kind, healing people who were gravely :> hurt and in a coma. : I think he had that power because he was descended from Elros who was a : Half-Elf, and even had some blood of the Ainur (Melian) in his veins. I always thought of it as "herb-lore" of the kind mere mortal humans have known through-out the ages, although not necessarily common knowledge. I don't think Aragorn did any other kind of healing...did he? Chris Barrera cbarrera@ t i . c o m ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves and magic Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:16:15 -0500 Organization: Earth One Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3A9D082E.8820C6A3@erols.com> References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> <3A9BA579.FB62949@erols.com> <3A9C2C7D.CC1A04D5@t-online.de> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb1ESFR1C8+McZzSpCvGZnxsmvljtVYrvmlTI8V4ucbd4MTfTwjydls X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2001 01:56:18 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33097 Nils Altenbach wrote: > Ermanna wrote: > > Jabba McJabba wrote: > > > That's why I don't wonder at > > > Gandalf's magical capabilities...Are these blind forces and respond > > > automatically to a caster? > > > > I think the magic used belongs to Gandalf. > > Yes, but why did it belong to him? Because he was an Ainu? Eru gave him power as He gave power to all the Ainur, didn't He? > Nils > > -- > Lord BlackLight aka Lord Helmet aka ElfBoi > aka Lord Caramac the Clueless > His Arrogance Pope Cereal I. > > http://home.pages.de/~Lord_Helm > ICQ #14080192 > > Reality is the original Rorschach. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: "Tuor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> <3A9C3005.232B22A6@t-online.de> Subject: Re: Elves and magic Lines: 66 Organization: Gondolin Defense Force (retired) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 05:26:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.26.156.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 983424368 63.26.156.98 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:26:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:26:08 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!206.252.192.28!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33117 "Nils Altenbach" wrote in message news:3A9C3005.232B22A6@t-online.de... > Stan Brown wrote: > > > > But I think they did. The chapters about Lórien, and the "Many > > Meetings" chapter, illustrate this best. "The Mirror of Galadriel" > > contains Galadriel's statement about "Elvish magic", which I suspect > > is close to Tolkien's own. > > > > The cloaks that were given to the Fellowship were different from > > cloth woven by mortals: they made the wearers nearly invisible. > > (Remember how the Riders of Rohan didn't see Aragorn, Gimli, and > > Legolas.) The River of Rivendell was "under [Elrond's] power", and > > he could hold it back or make its waters increase as he chose. > > Galadriel could command her Mirror to show specific things. > > I think the Elves are connected to Arda in a way that must seem > "magical" to any mortal - just because they have so much time to > develop. A single Elf can learn more about the world he lives in than a > whole civilisation of Men, except perhaps for the Númenoreans. Therefore > mortals must appear to an Elf as mere "children", as Legolas says when > he reaches Fangorn with Gimli and Aragorn. > What seems magical to mortals - the grey fabric that renders its wearer > almost invisible, for example - must appear to the Elves perfectly > natural. Galadriel is just very skilled. > > > > I only accept to an extent the explanation of Elves having direct > > > contact with the Ainu and learning "magic" from them. > > > > You meant to say "the Ainur". I believe the Ainu were the aboriginal > > people of Japan. > > "Ainu" is also the singular form of "Ainur". > > > > This view has much to commend it. Perhaps you are thinking of > > [Arthur C.] Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is > > indistinguishable from magic." > > The terms "technology" and "magic" are just matters of definition. We > define a certain way of "making things work" as "technology", and > another as "magic", and many people nowadays believe that there is no > such thing as "magic". But I won't go on talking about that matter > anymore, for it belongs to alt.magick.chaos. This is absurd. What Clarke was talking about was the *appearance* of Magic and Technology...not the actuality, since he clearly does not believe in 'magic'. Technology, generally, means using knowledge to make devices to do things based on scientific theory. Magic is *not* based on scientific theory. It may or may not act in a rational matter, but it is not science (as we understand it today). Tolkien more or less abhored technology, at least more modern and 'advanced' technology. He would *not* have created his Elves or Ainur so that they used advanced *tech* to do seeming magic. Look at Saruman or the Miller. Look at Sauron, at the Smiths of Eregion. Everyone who tried to use technology ended up being destroyed by it (except the Miller, though Tolkien never liked him). Tolkien talks at length about the subject of Magic in his essay, 'On Fairy-stories' which can be found in 'The Tolkien Reader.' That should clarify this issue far better than I can. Tuor ###### From: "Zek" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3AA7E7A2@MailAndNews.com> Subject: Re: Elves and magic Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:35:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.222.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.pa.home.com 984785736 24.7.222.141 (Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:35:36 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:35:36 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.pa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33634 > Hi all, > how come that the Elves had magic powers ?Do they have magical powers?I > do > not think so. Elves are magical beings themselves, so they are better attuned with such magical feats. This is merely in a traditional sense of the fantasy setting, and doesn't hold true for everything, but... > Calling magic powers the characteristics of a person that > allow > him to perform in truth (and not simulate) things AGAINST and OUT of > universally accepted laws of physics and chemistry, only by using his normal > body functions - they could not have those powers. Anyone(I assume) could learn magic with years and years of training, but magic can't be treated as something that does not exist and is merely a falsity used by trained professionals. Magic is just as real as everything else in the world(none of which, of course, is real anyway). As I said earlier, Elves are magical creatures, and thus it comes more naturally to them to call forth such powers.